Marines Getting Res For Kills
The_Spectre
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9212Members
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9212Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Someone explain to me why this is good..</div> I think it:
1. Sounds counterintuitive and unrealistic, even downright silly.
I mean, how do marines get more raw nanosludge from shooting an alien?
Yes, this argument can be blown to pieces by saying "gameplay is more important than realism", and I tend to agree with that. Still, it needed to be said. Now, I don't see how marines getting res for kills is good for gameplay, which brings me to point 2, 3, 4 and 5.
2. Will promote marine ramboing.
That rambo who just killed 5 aliens and then died is actually being <i>useful</i> to the team. He's bringing in plenty of resources. Commanders will encourage good players to go rambo, just for the extra res flow. Rambos might also feel they've "earned" a shotgun or an hmg or whatever, and will whine for the shotgun that they deserve, in their mind. They did bring in the resources...
Res for kills just adds a justification for rambo's. Even if they could be more useful to the team by helping build stuff, people will try to justify their ramboing, be it to themselves or to their team, with the fact that they're bringing in res.
3. Will bring hate on lesser skilled players on the alien team.
"OMG you NOOB stop feeding them resources!!"
And even if they do do useful stuff like eat res nodes etc, all the team sees is who dies constantly and who doesn't.
4. Will make skulks more careful of dying.
Maybe this is just me, but I think aliens, especially skulks, should not care about dying. They are part of the hive mind, and if the risk of death will make them more useful in helping the hive mind, they would take that risk gladly. By adding a consequence to dying (marines get more res), you will lessen this mentality. Suicidal skulks are part of the athmosphere of NS IMO.
5. Will promote "slippery slope", IE harder to come back in a slightly losing situation.
Once marines get that extra weapon upgrade, the tech for HMGs, whatever, they'll start killing more aliens. This gets them more res, which allows them to get more and better guns, which get them even more resources etc etc. Bad.
I saw one of the vets say, in the beta forum, something like: "I think most clan games will be determined in the first few minutes". Res for kills can only be contributing to this.
(Some of these can also be applied to aliens, but I think res-for-kills fits right in with the aliens' concept of loners, and it also makes slightly more sense. Also, marines being slightly afraid to die, because they'd be feeding the aliens res, is a Good Thing IMO. Noone ever rushes to their deaths in the movies, because they don't respawn 15 seconds later. Marines in NS shouldn't rush to their deaths uncaringly either, it's just silly.)
Now, could someone tell me what's good about marines getting res for kills? I'd love to see some vets/PTs comment on this.
1. Sounds counterintuitive and unrealistic, even downright silly.
I mean, how do marines get more raw nanosludge from shooting an alien?
Yes, this argument can be blown to pieces by saying "gameplay is more important than realism", and I tend to agree with that. Still, it needed to be said. Now, I don't see how marines getting res for kills is good for gameplay, which brings me to point 2, 3, 4 and 5.
2. Will promote marine ramboing.
That rambo who just killed 5 aliens and then died is actually being <i>useful</i> to the team. He's bringing in plenty of resources. Commanders will encourage good players to go rambo, just for the extra res flow. Rambos might also feel they've "earned" a shotgun or an hmg or whatever, and will whine for the shotgun that they deserve, in their mind. They did bring in the resources...
Res for kills just adds a justification for rambo's. Even if they could be more useful to the team by helping build stuff, people will try to justify their ramboing, be it to themselves or to their team, with the fact that they're bringing in res.
3. Will bring hate on lesser skilled players on the alien team.
"OMG you NOOB stop feeding them resources!!"
And even if they do do useful stuff like eat res nodes etc, all the team sees is who dies constantly and who doesn't.
4. Will make skulks more careful of dying.
Maybe this is just me, but I think aliens, especially skulks, should not care about dying. They are part of the hive mind, and if the risk of death will make them more useful in helping the hive mind, they would take that risk gladly. By adding a consequence to dying (marines get more res), you will lessen this mentality. Suicidal skulks are part of the athmosphere of NS IMO.
5. Will promote "slippery slope", IE harder to come back in a slightly losing situation.
Once marines get that extra weapon upgrade, the tech for HMGs, whatever, they'll start killing more aliens. This gets them more res, which allows them to get more and better guns, which get them even more resources etc etc. Bad.
I saw one of the vets say, in the beta forum, something like: "I think most clan games will be determined in the first few minutes". Res for kills can only be contributing to this.
(Some of these can also be applied to aliens, but I think res-for-kills fits right in with the aliens' concept of loners, and it also makes slightly more sense. Also, marines being slightly afraid to die, because they'd be feeding the aliens res, is a Good Thing IMO. Noone ever rushes to their deaths in the movies, because they don't respawn 15 seconds later. Marines in NS shouldn't rush to their deaths uncaringly either, it's just silly.)
Now, could someone tell me what's good about marines getting res for kills? I'd love to see some vets/PTs comment on this.
Comments
There's many games where my end score can be 20-50. Skulks are meant to be cannon fodder, and no skulk should be lambasted by his teammates for dying without killing a marine.
Ramboing is a lot tougher in 2.0 than it was in 1.0x. Vanilla skulks can be very tough to kill even in a 1v1, so killing 5 skulks before dieing as a rambo marine SHOULD be rewarded.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5. Will promote "slippery slope", IE harder to come back in a slightly losing situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats basically the entire point of res-for-kills. Flayra wanted a way for the winning team to finish off the other team quickly. In builds where there was no res-for-kills, we were getting HORRIBLY long end games, where the team which was VERY clearly going to win was unable to do so because res flow was simply too slow to allow massing of high tech for the final push.
Right now, the game (2.0) seems to be skewed in favor of aliens. If anything, an argument for removing res-for-kills on the alien side could be made. But, IMHO res-for-kills for both sides is a good thing, and works well.
While I tend to lean towards gameplay over game aesthetics this seams to be totaly out there. There has got to be a better way to balence res flow between teams then this. Personally I would do aliens as they are in NS2 and then do marines more like they are in 1.4.
Not with me controlling the skulk. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
2. Will promote marine ramboing.
4. Will make skulks more careful of dying.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you got the ideas of being marine and alien mixed.
Aliens *should* care about dying, as they have a slow respawn rate, while that marine should *NOT* care about dying, since he obviously has taken down 5 skulks with him. Do the math. If you had a whole team of those rambos,
1 marine dies for every 5 skulks, marines spawn faster, = gg in 5 min
as you can see, that rambo actually did a *LOT* of good even if by himself - provided he actually took down the 5 skulks of course ** - and marines almost always outspawn aliens, so marines are more expendable
** if he didn't, so what? there are certain times when it is not possible, even for good players, e.g. when he happens to be facing a fade and a lerk and a battle gorge in addition to the skulk, or OC wall, or whatever. If he is just a newbie, then force him to guard himself, and/or explain the situation, etc - the mistake you make is thinking that ramboing = bad, when in fact it is what you choose to do when that matters, and related to this is whether or not that thing gets done at all - for instance the broad, general goal of killing the hive - if you lose obviously you did not kill the hive (non tourney conditions) - was that a bad goal, a bad thing to try?
No i'm not comparing cs to ns.
2. Rambo marines are ground beef waiting to happen, even in 1.0x.
3. This means newbs can threaaten vets with: "Help me or I'll just be giving them res!".
4. Agreed. I justified my early skulk performances with: "At least I'm wasting their ammo."
5. I believe fast games were the point behind this one.
In the end, I don't expect to like 2/5 of these either, but we shall see when 2.0 comes out. Trust in Flayra.
Can't the marines get scores for kills?
Just to keep track of who is good?
IF the commadner wants to give a HMG and JP he/she will know who will be good with it or who will be like George Bush with a hmg....
Well people arue that it may make people not work as a team as well...
Well I have news for you, the commander is jsut an average marine...
Hes not verry special...
He may be the fastest person to get to the command chair.
Scores for marines may be good.
Or you can forget about kills for marines.
How about the best marine with the most kills can type in green or a tag in some color that stands out so the other mairnes knows he/she is some kind of leader so they can follow him/her. So there would be a commander and a marine leader that can be the marien with the most kills and the role of that may be changed if someother marien is better later.
Or how about each kill gives you like 1 resource and it is not an additional resource for the team. It is your own resource. Like a marine could get a resource bank accound. If the commadner drops a store machine (kind of like a soda machine but it has weapons/armor/jps in it) and the marien can go up to it and buy a weapon. The weapon could be more expensive like 30 per hmg, 30 per heavy armor and 14 per jet pack like an extra 5 res per thing. That way if the commander did not research the hmg yet, a soldier cna buy it with money from the soldier's bank account. AND if the soldier has 30 res to spend and he spends it and the team resources is at 47 then 30 resources is subtracted form the team resources (the tream resources is the resources that you see and the commandeer can spend). So the mariens dont get an advantage; no extra resources are gained by a kill but the mairne has the right if the marine chooses to spend it and it is deducted form the team resources.
That way you get some advantage form killing more ailens and you can still work as a team.
And if you want maybe for each thing you build you get 1 or 1/2 resource.
The commander can stilld rop stuff but people wont camp abse and ask for hmg and jps. The commander can curse at the mairne and tell him/her to earn his/her hmg and jp. Also marines may upgrade thir armor/weapons like if the commander has lev 1 weapons upgraded the mairne can pay 10 resources to get level 2 weapons on it, but if the mairen dies he /she is back at level 1. Marines could also buy health and (ammo stupid if there is an armory). The machine could also weld the marine at the cost of 2 resources and no welder even has to be bought.
Put that rambo marine with two more marines as meat shields <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> and the commander will be swimming in res...it promotes teamwork in my eyes. I had an idea about this once. Why not have a green circle (like tfs, sentrys, ccs, etc..) around the marines, only smaller. They only get res for kills if there are two or more marines in this green circle. That WOULD promote teamwork. And to have the aliens spawn in waves or just no time at all would promote rushing. Man, both of those could fix the game the way it is supposed to be....in my eyes.
I dont care if res for kill has justice or not, what's important is freedom of choice for game community.
I dont care if res for kill has justice or not, what's important is freedom of choice for game community. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats just stupid...it'd mean different types of games on each server. Want some continuity..
As for those who say "omg, res for kills is bad..", you haven't played it yet. It may work perfectly, but you wouldnt know and just seem to want to complain.
No-one knows how the balance is in the 2.0 builds except those who've played them, meaning that for those who havent to come in and make rash arguments such as "res for kills will be bad" is proposterous. When 2.0 has been out for a bit, then I will fully accept your view if you still believe that res for kills is bad. Until then, hold your speculation back, and just leave the dev team to it.
EDIT: I read it and nothing
<b><u>ALIENS</b></u>
O Added variable point reward when aliens make a kill. The killing player gets 1-3 resources (randomly) for the kill
O Added sound that plays when players receive resources (from "givepoints" or from kill).
<b><u>MARINES</u></b>
O Removed health upgrade - does this mean they cannot use the med pack?
I read nothing about <b>Marines Getting Res For Kills</b>
I have never before complained about a v2.0 feature, which some of you may or may not have noticed. Basically I have faith in what the devs are doing and I trust it will turn out fine in the end no matter what. Furthermore, I haven't actually played 2.0 so I don't have any experience to base opinions on anyway.
Having said that, of all the features ever presented this is the one that has actually made me go "wait a minute...". Basically it goes against everything I believe in, especially with regards to NS.
All the resons Spectre listed are valid and it *does* send out a message saying that NS is all about kills. Having heard Flayra state that he regrets the current skill vs tactics situation, ie: the game is already too dependant on skill and to little on tactics for his liking. Now adding this makes absolutely no sense... basically if you have good enough shooters you don't need tactics, RT's, strategies or anything.
If this change does indeed take effect I would hope it is made a server variable so us server admins can switch it off, I try to promote teamplay and not deathmatching on our server. If it's not included I am sure there will be a plugin out shortly and I would definetely go find and install it asap. Different games being played on diifferent servers are already happening. Lerk-lift, Umbra hive, JP nerfs, there's a billion different plugins and settings already, not to mention house rules.
It just doesn't make sense to say that you want tactics and strategies to be more important, put more focus on the RTS part of the game, and then implement this. I'd really like to hear from Flayra on it. If it's about finishing games quicker it should be easy to solve (if it's even a real problem, which I doubt) without eliminating comebacks and promoting fragwhoring.
If marines didn't get res for kills, at least one of the two vets that have responded would have said so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They only get res for kills if there are two or more marines in this green circle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At first I liked this idea. I even mentioned it in another thread a while ago. However, this means that marines have no chance in a 2v2 game since they never get res for kills and aliens do (not that NS will be balanced for 2v2 when it is made for larger teams, but it is a point to make anyway). It is worth trying for a later version.
Also, does a team get res if someone on the other team suicides?
I dont care if res for kill has justice or not, what's important is freedom of choice for game community. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats just stupid...it'd mean different types of games on each server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are already playing different types of games depending on server setting.
What is friendly_fire on/off ?
What is armory_healing ?
What is give res ?
What is LerkLift ?
Turning on/off res for kills is a small thing in comparison with above modification.
will trust in Flayra
if unbalanced {
patch will be made
else {
Voogru (or similar person) will make a patch to get rid of/modify res for kill
}
It's part of the game now, get over it.
It adds balance, versality and ensures a different gameplay. No useless kamikaze anymore.
No.
What is friendly_fire on/off ?
What is armory_healing ?
What is give res ?
What is LerkLift ?
Turning on/off res for kills is a small thing in comparison with above modification. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armory healing, Giveres and Lerk Lift are all meta mods and not a part of NS. They're bolt on mods for NS, so these shouldn't be considered in the least.
FF is intended for tournament / clan play, it adds a bit more realism but hardly revolutionises the game.
An option to turn on / off res for kills would be stupid, we're not just talking changing a little feature, this will screw the balance of the game.
He hasn't played it, and neither have you. So the points brought up are invalid.
Next!
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Did you know how much money a dead skulk is worth on the black market?
Man, why do you think I enlisted to the Frontiersman Force?
Its all about money. I get 4000 UniversallCreditUnits for every Skulk Head some **** like to put on top of their TV <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, dont complain about it. With 4000 UCUs you could go buy a whole cannister of more than 10 RES <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(Oh I forgot to say, while I was crouching to get that killed Skulk back to base and in my Locker, I died horribly... but now thanks to our elite medical technology I can walk again...)
Ok I ll shut up now....
Getting "res"/"score"/"anything" for kills is a bad idea. This sounds like other games. I never liked that system. No more guarding Marines, no more gorgy-Protector Skulkys. Everyone will just rush to kill, kill, kill...
To test if a Marine is a good Marine:
Left click on him.
Give waypoint infront of him, 2 meters distance.
Does he go there? Excellent.
Now give him waypoint left of him, 2 meters.
Now again left of him.
Again, again, again......
NOW, IF THAT MARINE IS RUNNING A CIRCLE = HE IS THE BEST MARINE YOU COULD HAVE.
Equally, a good Alien protects his species like Ants protect their colony.
"Skill" should not be ANY kind of discrimination EVER.
Making this would destroy the feeling NS started with. Aliens would become selfish, Marines kill-thursty.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Have you played with res for kills? Have any of you?
TRUST FLAYRA.
Thank you, Xzilen, for your open mind.
The rest of you, calm down. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be in.
I couldn't agree more. It is very hard to judge these features from outside the playtest, but how else can we attempt to mold the game that we love so much?
IMO, Res-for-kill seems like a "bandaid" to fix a resource problem. If more resources are needed for a superior team at the end of the game, then why doesn't that team go out and secure more RT's? If more resources are needed (in general) over the course of the game, then why don't you just speed up the rate at which resources are harvested? Or give 2 resources per tick? Or maybe have resource income increase over the life of a RT (the longer you hold the RT, the faster/more resources it gives)? Any of these suggestions *seem* like a better solution, but we all know a good theory doesn't always work well in practice.
I just wish Flayra would try harder to fix the root of the resource problem, instead of patching it with this "feature". (At least it seems like a patch to me) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No useless kamikaze anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is a good thing? This will completely change the way NS is played. No more suicide skulk rushes into heavily fortified positions? I rely on the fact that my death means nothing in v1.04, and now I have to carefully weigh my options each time I plan an assault? Regardless of whether it works or not, I just don't like the change in mentality that this will require. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't even what to think about the abuse that the less-skilled/new players will get, as they die repeatedly. It's hard enough playing on a team where you are trying to teach/organize newbies, and now you actually get punished for each of their mistakes. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I say give both team res, but don't make it so that Turrets and OCs can get it also.. that would be BS in my mind!
Give it to the player not to the Auto defences!
I trust in Flayra so I am not worryed!
Its just that this reminds of some other games I (/we?) hated because they are rewarding the "top players".
So, what the heck, we ll soon see how 2.0 is played.
And really, many changes there. And who said tweaking on ns will stop in 2.0?
Someday we might have to wait to get our Dropships to ns_hera.
Would be fine for me, if Flayra liked this. I ll play ns till ns2 is out anyway ;D