The Idea Of Limiting Onos To Two Or Three Hives...

Forlorn · June 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">...and my analysis of why it won't work.</div> Recently, I've seen in the beta discussion and in the general forums this disturbing idea:

Limit Onos so that they can only be acquired at hive #2.

OR

Limit Onos so that they can only be acquired at hive #3.

There are several flaws with each of these approaches.

To the two hive idea:

It doesn't fix anything. Aliens will still be able to rush for that hive, and who ever were saving for an onos will still be able to go onos no problem. So you won't see onos at hive one, the game enders, the unfair monsters that they are? Big deal. The onos still remains an onos, and just as super. It's still unbalanced. All this approach would do is cure the <b> symptom</b>, and not the actual <b>disease</b> itself, that is, the fact that onos' are such game breakers.(As I've heard. If a bunch of vets have troubles with them, I can't even imagine a future pub scene... /me shivers)

Also, by putting onos at hive two, you are doing something far worse than just applying a cheap fix to a large problem; you are limiting the game of possible strategies. A big no no. Look at one of the biggest reasons a sequential hive order tech for the aliens is being attacked: It has a linear strategy. That sort of stuff doesn't even really require a commander, for the commander goes from a leadership role of directing marines to a combat support/surveillance role. In a 1.1p situation, where anything can happen, the commander is necessary. He tells the marines where to go, what nodes to cap, when to lockdown a hive, how to react and act towards the alien team, as he is the all seeing eye who knows the situation best. Now, in 1.1q, the commander says, "Okay boys, the aliens are at the sewer hive. I'll give you health and ammo on to your destination." The marine’s reply, "Roger that, were on our way to ventilation." They didn't even have to hear it from the comm., they just <u>knew</u> because the game is so linear. Not fun.

The same problem applies to limiting a 2-hive onos, albeit to a lesser extent. Instead of having skulks or aliens decide on a thoughtful way to add to their team, they will instinctively go fade or onos, based on <b>one</b> condition: <i>Are we close to getting a second hive, or do we have a second hive?</i>

If <b>yes</b>, go onos. <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>
If <b>no</b>, go fade. <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'>

It's that simple, and a terrible waste of what could have been:

<i>What alien class does my team need now?</i>
o We need res? <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>
o We need fighters? <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>
o We need support units? <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'>
o Do we STILL need a fast moving scout?(sheesh team <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> ) <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>
<i>What are the marines doing?</i> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'>
o Do they have lots of jetpacks?
o Have they been expanding? <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'>
o Are they using more HMG or Grenade launchers? Or just vanilla marines? <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'>

Now, I'm not stupid and I realize that most of these situations are pointless because the onos is terribly overpowered. However, this is the <b>cause</b>, the <b>symptom</b> is marines get owned. If all that's done is that the marines are delayed from getting owned, all it does it push back the main <b>problem</b>, and the symptoms will naturally reoccur once again.

My personal prediction is that if onos were pushed back to 2-hives, most games will end at 2-hives, as aliens will have 2 upgrade chambers + most of their abilities. Also, marines will undoubtedly focus on locking down two hives, as denying the uber powerful onos sure sounds like a surefire way to win. <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

Now, addressing the idea of putting all alien classes available at hives 1 and 2, but putting onos at hive 3:

Well, first of all, it still follows the same fallacy of preventing a <b>symptom</b>, and not the actual <b>disease</b> itself.

However, it also completely negates the use of an onos, once again, much like in 1.04. In a clan match, who could honestly say they saw an onos in play, ever? Onos will once again fill the burden of being a game ender, which in my opinion, "game enders" should <u>not</u> exist.

If a onos at 3-hive system were to exist, you'd have one of the same problems so apparent with 1.04 glare it's ugly head once again: Games are decided before they are actually over!

Once you get that third hive, then it's game over for the marines, there is NO WAY for the marines to come back. If they even try to leave, they will be trampled by onos, slashed by fades, or blown up by skulks.

Putting the onos at hive 3 only further exemplifies it's importance as a game ender. This should be avoided at all costs if 1.1 is to be enjoyable as possible.

Rather than shaft potential strats, in favor of simple and balance gameplay, why not try and <b>fix</b> the onos?

In my opinion, the best way to make something counterable is to make it specialized. It doesn't have to be complex, but it must be specialized.

So, here's my fix for the onos:

Lower it's speed.

The onos should be tough, and strong, but if he can't even reach them, what use will he be?

Lower the speed of the onos, so that a vanilla marine will be able to outrun him, yet so he's faster than an HA marine.

So, you would have this strategically tactic in place:

The onos is able to kick the crap out of marines that aren't well organized, yet by the same token, only if he is able to reach them! If a group of vanilla marines came across an onos, they run. If the onos pursues, the marines can shoot at the beast, all the while retreating. Jetpacker's would also have a huge advantage to the onos now; not only can they go over the onos, but they can also <b>run</b> away from the onos as well! A jetpacking marine would most certainly have the upper hand against a slower onos.

Stomp, while before was a way to completely decimate the marines, will have a much more practical application for the onos: <i>So he can catch his prey</i>! If two marines are far away enough to run from the onos, then the onos can use stomp to stun them, so he could possible catch up. As of right now, an onos with stomp can easily kill entire squads of marines, as stomp gives him so much time that he can even do a little jig in front of the marine before impaling him. However, if the onos was slower... one stomp may well be enough time to just reach ONE of the marines, and then manage to kill him, before the others are released and are free to run away. Also, the stomp is being changed so that there is a skill factor to it: A shockwave is sent out in front of the onos, one that the marine can see and jump over! The reason why a marine won't be able to run away from the onos and still manage to jump the shockwaves easily is because of the marine won't even be looking at the onos! A marine who backpedals will not be able to outrun an onos... but the one who turns tail and starts sprinting would be able to. Also, the marine would not be able to turn, run, and bunny hop away because the marine isn't able to do so without slowing down! And if the marine slows down... <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> Ouch. This creates a level of skill that I'm sure both vets and pubbers could enjoy. They may be a vanilla marine who is eventually going to get eaten by an onos, but they how much more damage can they do before this happens? Who knows, they may indeed kill him.

Now, I'm sure some of you may already think: This is bad. Why should a 100 res die from a free marine? Well, that is the idea! There should be a stronger counter to the onos, by making him specialized! An onos alone may suffer from large drawbacks, but when the onos is together with other aliens, he WILL be able to get up close and personal, and he WILL be a much larger force to reckon with. A lerk could provide an onos cover with umbra as he advances, or lerks and skulks could rush the marines while a giant *** onos looms in the background! The onos will become the huge uber large awesome gargantuan super great heavy melee unit everyone has come to fear and know, but they will also be <u>limited</u> now, and definitely serve the role in this RTS which many other RTS's have. Take for example, the ultralisk in Starcraft. While the ultralisk alone can annihilate single units and structures with ease, against large groups of smaller enemies, he is <u>torn</u> apart. Yet, put the ultralisk in with an army of other units, and the ultralisk is an <u>incredible</u> force to be reckoned with, for many reasons I shall not explain. The point is that the ultralisk serves as this big force, one that has many counters, yet when used right, he is easily unstoppable.

This, this is how an onos should be. He shouldn't be some game ender that costs 100 res, he should be a unit that costs 100 res, and has the potential to kill an entire marine base... or be killed by one lone marine. I feel the onos needs diversity and specialization, and by making <b>one</b> small change, lowering his maxspeed, then you create this.

So, a short recap:

<i>o Onos is slower than a vanilla marine.
o Onos is faster than a HA marine.
o No limiting when you can go onos!</i>

Now, onto one last problem: An onos with celerity could easily and effectively ruin all what I have hoped for him. An onos with celerity could outrun a LA marine.

So, I shall specify exactly to which extent I would like to see the onos' speed changed:

Onos with no celerity <b>cannot</b> catch up to LA marine.
Onos with lv. 1 celerity <b>cannot</b> catch up to LA marine, but is that much faster.
Onos with lv. 2 celerity <b>cannot</b> catch up to LA marine, but is that much faster.
Onos with lv. 3 celerity <b>cannot</b> catch up to LA marine, but runs at the same speed.

In addition, celerity would have it's advantages, but also have it's downsides! The onos would pass up more adrenaline, or less stomp. Stomp has now become a powerful tool for the onos, increasing the usages of stomp is indeed a great thing to do.

Also, another tantalizing aspect is silence... Who knows!? A silent onos, who rather sneaks up on his prey will never have to worry about stomping the marines, or catching up to them... he can easily run behind them and beat them senseless. Another possibility is a cloaked, silenced, onos... this would indeed be interesting to see.

<i>So here is one final recap:
o Onos is slower than LA marine, but can match him with lv. 3 celerity.
o Onos is faster than HA marine.
o A big "NO" to the onos at different levels of hives.</i>

And thus, my analysis concludes, feedback is very much appreciated. <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'>

Agkelos · June 2003

HOLY ****! THat was long.

I read it though <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> . Lowering onos speed sounds like a jolly idea.

Dread · June 2003

I'd say Oni being as fast as LA marines is a good solution. If marines want to outrun Onos, they can always throw away their guns <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

However, I see that the key problem with Onos is it's 1hive base-busting ability. Easily fixed, Gorge does half damage to buildings? Other problem is the resource model where Gorges can either get Oni superfast OR they don't have enough res to build OR they can build too fast.

Aegeri · June 2003

Ok I'm only going to reply to bits and pieces. Don't think I'm just building straw men because anything I don't reply to I simply agree with mmmmkay? Having heaps of quotes with an 'I agree' is utterly pointless. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We need fighters? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

On this point, I think that the fade should be the main fighter class. The onos should be purely a heavy support unit, which as you can see, the aliens lack (especially from your own analysis).

In order to make the onos a part of an alien team, and not the only thing, it needs to have useful support abilties rather than dominating offensive capabilities. Of course, it needs some form of nasty attack, but benefitting other aliens (even if it does mean reducing its offence, but making it a tank for damage) should be key.

Maybe an idea will be to give it an abililty than absorbs damage done to OTHER aliens around it in a radius? Hence functioning like a mobile "HP" tank for other weaker aliens?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Lower it's speed.

The onos should be tough, and strong, but if he can't even reach them, what use will he be?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

But realistically, how much of an effect would this have? It has often been mentioned that NS is a game fought at close quarters. Having a slow speed isn't that much of a disadvantage especially with the onos abilities such as stomp and charge. In either case he can slow up marines to his liking to tear them up.

Perhaps if it makes an audible sound well before he gets to the marines, but in general it will be too close to really make running away all that useful.

Being faster than HA marines also doesn't solve the problem. They are the main thing the onos tears apart and are the main problem with the onos=It tears apart the marines ultimate tech unit far too easily. The problem with stomp is that it works automatically, and at close range I doubt many marines will get time to jump over it. Not to mention there will be other aliens running around as well.

Situations where people put one onos against a few marines are hypothetical at best. The onos should be balanced in the context of OTHER aliens.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The point is that the ultralisk serves as this big force, one that has many counters, yet when used right, he is easily unstoppable. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You are forgetting however that in starcraft the ultralisk has the crap kicked out of it by air units/burrowed units or masses of tier 1 units. In NS equal marines to equal onos is a marine loss by default. Marines cannot burrow and own an onos :/ Jetpacks run out of fuel and not all situations are ideal for a jetpacker to kill an onos for example (low ceilings, etc).

This is inherently the problem, the onos HAS no counter because it was DESIGNED to demolish everything anyway.

Lowering his speed doesn't really solve very much, as it is still an evil high HP and armour beast.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Onos is slower than LA marine, but can match him with lv. 3 celerity.
o Onos is faster than HA marine.
o A big "NO" to the onos at different levels of hives.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Slowing him down only solves the problem slightly. Also, it does make celerity onos rather pointless because they only get slightly faster.

Of course a celerity onos would then do exactly its point: Tear apart HA marines. LMG marines with no armour against skulks and fades?

HAMBone · June 2003

wow.. calm down. Few things

1) Onos ISNT a game-ender. He is very powerful but can and is regularly taken down. Right now if you leave him at hive 3 he is a perfect counter to HA/HMG/GL. At 1 hive however he _can_ be unfairly good in a game that has been close up to that point.

2) Uhh, Onos is already VERY slow without celerity, and hes no speed demon with it. With 3 hives everyone just goes adrenaline and charges around the map. But without charge or celerity, he is very slow.

cybrangl · June 2003

Well thought out and a great way to balanc ethe Onos! It's so simple, it just may work! I like the trade-offs, it makes the game that much more interesting. Any unit that is a "no brainer" is unbalanced.

Aegeri · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBOWN @ Jun 17 2003, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> wow.. calm down. Few things
1) Onos ISNT a game-ender. He is very powerful but can and is regularly taken down. Right now if you leave him at hive 3 he is a perfect counter to HA/HMG/GL. At 1 hive however he _can_ be unfairly good in a game that has been close up to that point.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yeah, this is mostly taken in context from an open evolution style thing.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2) Uhh, Onos is already VERY slow without celerity, and hes no speed demon with it. With 3 hives everyone just goes adrenaline and charges around the map. But without charge or celerity, he is very slow.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I figured so. Is charge 2 or 3 hive however? I remember it being 3, which would make this rather pointless <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> So aliens would still need hives to make the onos mobile.

Making him mobile with charge however makes any speed issue irrelevant to balance. Hence why speed shouldn't really be looked at in balancing the onos.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well thought out and a great way to balanc ethe Onos! It's so simple, it just may work! I like the trade-offs, it makes the game that much more interesting. Any unit that is a "no brainer" is unbalanced. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

See my post and hambowns. It won't work.

Savag3 · June 2003

Wow, this thread is like the opposite of what I stated in mine a few minutes ago.
Read it, too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Maian · June 2003

Yes! This is what I've been suggesting for a while: lower the onos speed! Make it a powerful but counterable mobile fortress. Onos would be the counter to HA while faster marines and JPs would counter unsupported oni. It would be a very unique alien unit. I'm glad that somebody agrees <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But realistically, how much of an effect would this have? It has often been mentioned that NS is a game fought at close quarters. Having a slow speed isn't that much of a disadvantage especially with the onos abilities such as stomp and charge. In either case he can slow up marines to his liking to tear them up.

Perhaps if it makes an audible sound well before he gets to the marines, but in general it will be too close to really make running away all that useful.

Being faster than HA marines also doesn't solve the problem. They are the main thing the onos tears apart and are the main problem with the onos=It tears apart the marines ultimate tech unit far too easily. The problem with stomp is that it works automatically, and at close range I doubt many marines will get time to jump over it. Not to mention there will be other aliens running around as well.

Situations where people put one onos against a few marines are hypothetical at best. The onos should be balanced in the context of OTHER aliens.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Stomp should be easily avoidable if you keep your distance from the onos.

I really like the idea of onos countering HAs and being awesome seige machines, while being countered by vanilla marines, JPers, and grenade launchers.

Aegeri · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Jun 17 2003, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yes! This is what I've been suggesting for a while: lower the onos speed! Make it a powerful but counterable mobile fortress. Onos would be the counter to HA while faster marines and JPs would counter unsupported oni. I'm glad that somebody agrees <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
How many times must this be said, the onos already IS very slow. But SPEED DOESN'T MATTER WHEN YOU ARE 5 FEET AWAY FROM IT TO BEGIN WITH.

In addition to this, charge+adrenaline removes any problems with speed that the onos has=speed is irrelevant.

Thank you for your time.

Maian · June 2003

Aegeri, I added a reply to you with my last post.

And why does marine have to always be 5 feet away from the onos?

Aegeri · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Jun 17 2003, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Aegeri, I added a reply to you with my last post.

And why does marine have to always be 5 feet away from the onos?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Maps are close quarters, you are generally fighting over rooms, corridors and other <b>confined spaces</b>. There are FEW areas where there are large long stretches where you get involved in a marathon race with whatever is around.

Most encounters will hence be close range affairs where speed is rather irrelevant because you don't have the mobility available to you.

In short, it makes a speed nerf utterly pointless. This is a map design thing.

While it is a nice idea in theory, in practice it would fail miserably.

Maian · June 2003

Aegeri, I'll talk about this slowing onos idea only in this thread, since we were getting that other thread a bit off topic. But read my last reply there.

Marines can hear the onos coming. They have adequate time to run away. They can dodge around corners or back off in hallways. Speed does make a difference. How can you tell that this would fail in practice, when all your arguments are theory as well?

Forlorn · June 2003

To Aegeri:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>On this point, I think that the fade should be the main fighter class. The onos should be purely a heavy support unit, which as you can see, the aliens lack (especially from your own analysis).

In order to make the onos a part of an alien team, and not the only thing, it needs to have useful support abilties rather than dominating offensive capabilities. Of course, it needs some form of nasty attack, but benefitting other aliens (even if it does mean reducing its offence, but making it a tank for damage) should be key.

Maybe an idea will be to give it an abililty than absorbs damage done to OTHER aliens around it in a radius? Hence functioning like a mobile "HP" tank for other weaker aliens?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I disagree. The Fade should be the main fighter class in that he is flexible, ablel to fight all the types of marines while not completely specilizing.

However, the Onos <b>should</b> have dominating offensive abilities, yet he should be limited in how he uses them. The onos has the offensive potential to own, yet he has a somewhat difficult time using them... It's an interesting complextion that deserves to be tested, don't you think?

Also, having the onos as the HP tank is a bad idea, have 3 gorges follow an onos, surrounded by other fighter aliens of your choice... invincible army. Not fun.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
But realistically, how much of an effect would this have? It has often been mentioned that NS is a game fought at close quarters. Having a slow speed isn't that much of a disadvantage especially with the onos abilities such as stomp and charge. In either case he can slow up marines to his liking to tear them up.

Perhaps if it makes an audible sound well before he gets to the marines, but in general it will be too close to really make running away all that useful.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

It will have an effect, because the onos will fall more into a heavy melee support category. Stomp won't be overpowered, but it will require skill to both dodge and use. Charge is a lv. 3 hive ability, so no worries there.

And the marines should be able to hear a maurding onos. Last time I checked, he is distinctly heard. That is why I suggested silence with the onos, if the marine's don't hear him he might be able to get a big jump on them.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You are forgetting however that in starcraft the ultralisk has the crap kicked out of it by air units/burrowed units or masses of tier 1 units. In NS equal marines to equal onos is a marine loss by default. Marines cannot burrow and own an onos :/ Jetpacks run out of fuel and not all situations are ideal for a jetpacker to kill an onos for example (low ceilings, etc).

This is inherently the problem, the onos HAS no counter because it was DESIGNED to demolish everything anyway.

Lowering his speed doesn't really solve very much, as it is still an evil high HP and armour beast. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I didn't forget anything about the ultralisk. I said with backup he was unstoppable. And that's true.

Yes, the onos was DESIGNED to demolish everything, but now it's time to change that.

Lowering his speed does solve a lot, I believe, because the marines can still move away from the onos, not be hit, and still be able to hit the onos!!!! Can't you see the obvious? All the marine has to do is stay away! He shoots bullets, remember?

To HAMBROWN:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1) Onos ISNT a game-ender. He is very powerful but can and is regularly taken down. Right now if you leave him at hive 3 he is a perfect counter to HA/HMG/GL. At 1 hive however he _can_ be unfairly good in a game that has been close up to that point.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

With my idea, at hive 3 the onos would still be a good coutner to HA/HMG/GL and such, as he would have lots of abilities to counter his slow speed, yet at the early game, he has the potential to be <b>owned</b> by a single marine!!!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2) Uhh, Onos is already VERY slow without celerity, and hes no speed demon with it. With 3 hives everyone just goes adrenaline and charges around the map. But without charge or celerity, he is very slow. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Last time I checked, the marines had the same speed as the onos...

Also, if lowering an onos' speed so much that not even lv. 3 celerity will help him catch a vanilla marine causes him to be unbearbly slow, there are other fixes, such as:

- Increasing marine speed a tad
- Making it so celerity has different properties for an onos

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well thought out and a great way to balanc ethe Onos! It's so simple, it just may work! I like the trade-offs, it makes the game that much more interesting. Any unit that is a "no brainer" is unbalanced. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>HOLY ****! THat was long.

I read it though . Lowering onos speed sounds like a jolly idea. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Thanks!

Maian · June 2003

The onos could have more HP/armor if regen and gorge heal weren't overpowered. Or the headplate onos idea would work - the headplate prevents some damage while the rest of the body receives full damage.

Agkelos · June 2003

Slow the onos and make it start 350-150 and become 350-250 with carapace.. sounds fair enough

Aegeri · June 2003

Ohhh this is getting good now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Marines can hear the onos coming. They have adequate time to run away. They can dodge around corners or back off in hallways. Speed does make a difference. How can you tell that this would fail in practice, when all your arguments are theory as well</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Mine aren't theory, mine are exactly what will happen. Again, THIS IS A CLOSE QUARTERS GAME. YOU ARE NOT IN AN OPEN FIELD. Yes you can hear him coming, but with skulk and lerk support you aren't really going to have this wonderfully idealised situation where the slow onos will NOT be in close quarters with marines.

What happens when the marines have to defend a node/base or whatever? Run away from the base into the nearest corridor :/ Yeah, that will work. The onos can now stand around and happily smash the buildings while the marines hope he is stupid enough to chase them down a corridor.

Forlorn

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I disagree. The Fade should be the main fighter class in that he is flexible, ablel to fight all the types of marines while not completely specilizing.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Agreed, which is why he should be the main front line soldier!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>However, the Onos should have dominating offensive abilities, yet he should be limited in how he uses them. The onos has the offensive potential to own, yet he has a somewhat difficult time using them... It's an interesting complextion that deserves to be tested, don't you think?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Speed will NOT limit his abilities. Again, Charge+adrenaline=your speed nerf irrelevant.

Attacking marines in confined places (plenty of those in NS maps) and in places they MUST defend=speed nerf irrelevant.

Speed will NOT solve the problem.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also, having the onos as the HP tank is a bad idea, have 3 gorges follow an onos, surrounded by other fighter aliens of your choice... invincible army. Not fun.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

3 gorges means you have what, 1 fade and a skulk? Your total damage output isn't going to be very good in this case. Also the way it would work is probably x2 or more damage (similar to another ability in another game I've long since forgotton). The onos would be dead long before the gorges could save him if there aren't enough alien attackers to kill marines fast enough :/

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It will have an effect, because the onos will fall more into a heavy melee support category. Stomp won't be overpowered, but it will require skill to both dodge and use. Charge is a lv. 3 hive ability, so no worries there.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Possibly, or possibly not. You haven't considered an intelligent alien team blocking, doorways, or confined spaces at all. In general, speed doesn't make that much of a difference (he already is pretty slow). Again, the onos will NOT be in this idealised situation you have of marines mowing him down from a corridor. Nobody going onos could possibly be that stupid.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And the marines should be able to hear a maurding onos. Last time I checked, he is distinctly heard. That is why I suggested silence with the onos, if the marine's don't hear him he might be able to get a big jump on them.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Adrenaline would be a better choice, get charge and suddenly it is game over for the marines. We end up at square 1.

A speed nerf is honestly NOT going to be effective. If they get hive 3=onos is a game ender all over again.

In other respects it would depend. Are you expecting marines to have to run all the time? What about positions they MUST defend that are in confined spaces like a seige or whatever. Are they to simply run away and hope the onos is stupid enough to follow them? Again, it ISN'T going to work in practice.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> didn't forget anything about the ultralisk. I said with backup he was unstoppable. And that's true.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You forgot that it is barely used <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> Even with backup it is pretty stoppable BTW.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Lowering his speed does solve a lot, I believe, because the marines can still move away from the onos, not be hit, and still be able to hit the onos!!!! Can't you see the obvious? All the marine has to do is stay away! He shoots bullets, remember?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Again, what is so difficult for you to understand about the fact the maps are mostly CONFINED spaces. Look at the room you are in right now, do you have a lot of room to move about it? Consider many of the rooms in NS maps, the distances AREN'T large enough to support marines constantly being able to move away. Likewise the ONOS WILL NOT BE ALONE. There will probably be skulks or whatever with him. This again makes it more difficult for the marines to move. Likewise you haven't considered positions the marines MUST defend, these aren't always going to be lovely open spaces but are again confined? What then? Once again, a speed nerf won't matter a thing if there is nowhere to move.

Again, can't you see the obvious effects that map design has? There aren't football fields in NS. THIS WILL NOT WORK TO BALANCE THE ONOS. Again, adren+charge=good game aliens.

In an ideal situation all you'd need to beat onos is to get JP, but this isn't the case? Why? Because the map design doesn't make it practical.

HAMBone · June 2003

Heres an idea: Why doesn't everyone start new threads about something that is already being over-discussed in numerous other threads -- and make sure your post is incredibly long while trying your best to overcomplicate the issues at hand - dont forget to make broad assumptions! Then, if someone takes the time out of their day to read your post, and in an effort to help responds nicely and concisely explaining why they disagree with your post, or why your preconceptions are incorrect, you should become belligerent and insult them while adamantly defending your idea! Sounds like very constructive use of our time!

Maian · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Mine aren't theory, mine are exactly what will happen. Again, THIS IS A CLOSE QUARTERS GAME. YOU ARE NOT IN AN OPEN FIELD. Yes you can hear him coming, but with skulk and lerk support you aren't really going to have this wonderfully idealised situation where the slow onos will NOT be in close quarters with marines.

What happens when the marines have to defend a node/base or whatever? Run away from the base into the nearest corridor :/ Yeah, that will work. The onos can now stand around and happily smash the buildings while the marines hope he is stupid enough to chase them down a corridor.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

In the onos is supported, it SHOULD be difficult for the marines to win unless they have a good combination of weapons and armor types.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Speed will NOT limit his abilities. Again, Charge+adrenaline=your speed nerf irrelevant.

Attacking marines in confined places (plenty of those in NS maps) and in places they MUST defend=speed nerf irrelevant.

Speed will NOT solve the problem.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

As Forlorn said, it's a 3rd hive ability. If aliens get 3 hives AND get many onos, they really should get a good chance at winning, since that's the best they can muster up.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Possibly, or possibly not. You haven't considered an intelligent alien team blocking, doorways, or confined spaces at all. In general, speed doesn't make that much of a difference (he already is pretty slow). Again, the onos will NOT be in this idealised situation you have of marines mowing him down from a corridor. Nobody going onos could possibly be that stupid.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If they confined the marines on all sides, that's what I consider a trap or ambush. Onos or no onos, the aliens should have the advantage.

You don't need marines gunning it down at very long distance. Besides, at if it's really cramped, the onos would get stuck <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Even after that stuck bug gets fixed, I'm very sure that not all areas are extremely cramped.

The marines would focus more on killing all the other alien forms and just backing away/retreating when the onos gets too near.

Aegeri · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In the onos is supported, it SHOULD be difficult for the marines to win unless they have a good combination of weapons and armor types.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

That is sort of the problem, they won't. The HA will die to the onos fast and the normal marines will either die to the onos afterwards or to the other aliens annihilating them.

You cannot retreat any further than a wall :/

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If they confined the marines on all sides, that's what I consider a trap or ambush. Onos or no onos, the aliens should have the advantage.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

They are just using the normal map design I mean. There are plenty of places where things are very confined. One of THE most important places is the marine base itself, a hive or whatever.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You don't need marines gunning it down at very long distance. Besides, at if it's really cramped, the onos would get stuck <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Even after that stuck bug gets fixed, I'm very sure that not all areas are extremely cramped.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Well just look at the maps, by cramped I mean places where there isn't sufficient space to keep running away. There are many many many places that match this description, oddly enough, mess hall being a good example. Don't think the onos would get stuck too often, not enough objects (I'm talking about room size).

Maybe in the marine base though.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The marines would focus more on killing all the other alien forms and just backing away/retreating when the onos gets too near.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Then the onos kills them as they miss the stomp that freezes them.

:/

Marines cannot run away, shoot at other aliens, dodge stomp AND pay attention to the onos distance ALL at once.

Again, this isn't a working strategy.

It is not going to be possible for marines to kill an onos in this way UNLESS the onos is an utter retard. Plus you continually (and deliberately) keep dodging my question about when marines MUST defend. You cannot 'retreat' into a corridor when you HAVE to defend this seige/res node/base from onos+other aliens. That is NOT going to be a viable tactic. No onos is going to happily ignore your base to chase you down a long hallway :/

Maian · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That is sort of the problem, they won't. The HA will die to the onos fast and the normal marines will either die to the onos afterwards or to the other aliens annihilating them.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

HMGs and GLs are very deadly. If 2 HMGers can take down an onos currently (according to a veteran), I'd think they'd be even better against a slower onos.

How overpowered do you think the onos is? You seem to think that one onos will win the game. On the contrary, the beta testers are indicating that's its just a bit overpowered and aliens get them too fast.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They are just using the normal map design I mean. There are plenty of places where things are very confined. One of THE most important places is the marine base itself, a hive or whatever.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

ns_eclipse. Hallways abound in this map. The coming changes will not radically change eclipse either.

ns_nothing. There are many hallways here and plenty of open space in many areas. Via is very open. Silo corriders are viable defensive chokepoints. Cargo will be more difficult since it's more cramped. Right now, cargo is somewhat easy to defend with good turret placement, but turrets don't stop fades and onos.

ns_bast. Not many long hallways, but good enough flow to allow marines to retreat when necessary. Engine room and the area just ahead of it are fairly open. Refinery is very open. Feedwater is kinda cramped.

ns_caged. Hallways abound. A couple places have little space to manuever in, but that's the minority.

ns_tanith. A couple hallways and large areas. Good flow. Marines can easily retreat if needed.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Then the onos kills them as they miss the stomp that freezes them.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Stomp has a visual indicator that marines can dodge. It depends on how fast the stomp "wave" travels.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Marines cannot run away, shoot at other aliens, dodge stomp AND pay attention to the onos distance ALL at once.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I'm saying that they concentrate on other aliens and retreat if necessary. They don't have to everything simultaneously. Again, a good team of marines with good weapons wouldn't even have to retreat. They would take advantage of the onos inability to even get to them before they die.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Plus you continually (and deliberately) keep dodging my question about when marines MUST defend. You cannot 'retreat' into a corridor when you HAVE to defend this seige/res node/base from onos+other aliens. That is NOT going to be a viable tactic. No onos is going to happily ignore your base to chase you down a long hallway :/</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Another reason they're slow. It gives marines ample time to respond before it reaches the base. Recon should be important.

Forlorn · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That is sort of the problem, they won't. The HA will die to the onos fast and the normal marines will either die to the onos afterwards or to the other aliens annihilating them.

You cannot retreat any further than a wall :/
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You don't understand.

1. HA/HMG will be able to stand to onos, but they still can be eaten by them. However, I wouldn't say that the onos is guarenteed on killing them.

2. The lighter marines, if they manage to kill the other alien lifeforms, they aren't just going to run into a wall, or all run away in the same direction.

Lets say 3 marines met this slower varient of the onos:
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>O = Onos X = Marines
1. Onos meets 3 vanilla marines

O

XXX
2. Marines use evasive tatics to take down onos

____O____
___/ | \___
X | X
X
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

All the vanilla marines have to do is spread out around the onos. The onos is now helpless, as he tries to go after one at a time, who, if good, can dodge the onos for quite some time, will allow the other team mates to unload clip after clip into the onos.

There is room in most area's.

And, you bring up a good point; if marines can run from them, that limits the onos to offense... RIGHT!! It should be offensive in nature, just like HA. A fade would be a much better defense because you can't run from a fade. An onos marines could play hide and seek from, and if it persists, it will be nailed. Not to mention a slower onos = grenade target practice.

Also, you fail to recognize that hallways, which most if not all maps have the most of, are some of the BEST areas for marines to be in... long straight paths with nowhere to run... except to and fro. There is room enough for marines to squeeze by onos', but not for a skulk to squeeze by an aimer.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Marines cannot run away, shoot at other aliens, dodge stomp AND pay attention to the onos distance ALL at once.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

With proper tatics, they can.

0blique · June 2003

I have to say, that's the most effective use of smilies I've ever seen so far.

Forlorn · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (0blique @ Jun 17 2003, 09:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I have to say, that's the most effective use of smilies I've ever seen so far.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
So uh... what do you think of the actual idea?

Aegeri · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>HMGs and GLs are very deadly. If 2 HMGers can take down an onos currently (according to a veteran), I'd think they'd be even better against a slower onos.

How overpowered do you think the onos is? You seem to think that one onos will win the game. On the contrary, the beta testers are indicating that's its just a bit overpowered and aliens get them too fast.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This is not the case however, as again, there were many complaints about the onos allowing aliens to come back from marines who owned the ENITRE map.

Again that gives me more than a suitable impression that they are pretty imbalanced.

Again, what the HELL are other aliens doing? Sitting around with their fingers up the rear ends? You continuously dodge 2 things: Onos with supporting aliens, and Onos attacking a marine base/needed strongpoint. I wonder why....

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Stomp has a visual indicator that marines can dodge. It depends on how fast the stomp "wave" travels.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And while they are watching the onos for this they aren't paying attention to the skulk or lerk that is about to kill them.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm saying that they concentrate on other aliens and retreat if necessary. They don't have to everything simultaneously.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And again, if they are defending res/base or seige points, they WILL have to do everything simultaneously. Does every battle in NS to you occur in corridors?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Again, a good team of marines with good weapons wouldn't even have to retreat. They would take advantage of the onos inability to even get to them before they die.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And the other aliens are doing what? Sitting around in the hive having a cup of tea? The problem as I have continually said, is that NS is a game of close quarters. You don't HAVE huge distances to start with, you don't HAVE marathon corridors to ideally fight onos, you HAVE to defend certain points on a map or lose. How is this difficult for you to comprehend?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Another reason they're slow. It gives marines ample time to respond before it reaches the base. Recon should be important. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And marines do what? They can run out and meet it (risking the chance of engaging it at close range), die to other aliens anyway or find it in their base with lerk and skulk support. Or retreat to a large corridor and lose their entire base?

Honestly, you aren't thinking out REAL situations.

Forlorn:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You don't understand.

1. HA/HMG will be able to stand to onos, but they still can be eaten by them. However, I wouldn't say that the onos is guarenteed on killing them.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

They do a brilliant job of it now, and seeing as they have devourer as a tier 1 ability that is one HA down instantly.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2. The lighter marines, if they manage to kill the other alien lifeforms, they aren't just going to run into a wall, or all run away in the same direction.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No, they are going to either die to the other aliens, or die to the onos once he catches up or be forced to retreat.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Lets say 3 marines met this slower varient of the onos:</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Your example is immediately flawed and not worth considering.

<b>THERE ARE NO OTHER ALIENS</b>. Why do you CONTINUALLY bias the argument in your favour by assuming stupid things? All through this you've ignored my continual points about small spaces, the fact NS is close quarters anyway, alien support and marines HAVE to defend fixed positions (at some point). You make idealised situations to support your idea and ignore everything to the contrary.

I'm beginning to give up on you :/

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>There is room in most area's.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Some areas there is room. Where you have 5 marines and 5 aliens in the SAME room, all of a sudden that space just got a LOT more cramped than it is now.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And, you bring up a good point; if marines can run from them, that limits the onos to offense... RIGHT!! It should be offensive in nature, just like HA. A fade would be a much better defense because you can't run from a fade. An onos marines could play hide and seek from, and if it persists, it will be nailed. Not to mention a slower onos = grenade target practice.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You've missed my point entirely. The fact is an onos on offence forces marines to engage it on its terms. Seiges aren't always built in the idealised corridors you'd like them too for your balancing idea to be viable for example. Marine bases are cramped as well (consider structures+aliens+onos etc) once sufficient players get in here.

Again, you INSIST ON HAVING MULTIPLE MARINES AGAINST ONE ONOS. THIS ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN EXCEPT AGAINST A TEAM OF RETARDS. Hide and seek vs the onos may be viable, hide and seek vs the onos and friends is not.

Also have you considered that if an onos was smart, it could simply be used to hemm marines in? If the marines are afraid to move into any cramped room (and must retreat into a corridor the moment they see an onos) the alien team could shut them down.

Map dominance=hives. Hives=charge. Charge+Adren=no movement disadvantage.

Marines=screwed.

Again, NOT VIABLE.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also, you fail to recognize that hallways, which most if not all maps have the most of, are some of the BEST areas for marines to be in... long straight paths with nowhere to run... except to and fro. There is room enough for marines to squeeze by onos', but not for a skulk to squeeze by an aimer.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

But nowhere are their mammoth corridors except in a few maps. The kinds of corridors that would benefit this idea are NOWHERE to be found on standard NS maps except in one or two locations.

And again, it isn't just an onos, it is onos and his lerk and skulk pals, perhaps even a fade.

And what are these marines to do against a fade? As they run from an onos they CANNOT move faster than a blinking fade (I think blink is tier 1, make sense anyway). So fade gets behind distracted marines=marines doomed.

What about chained supported onos? They are cloaked and can get well within range of marines (No MT) if smart enough. What then? Will they be able to run from there? Hardly, one devour and two gouges later and you have 2 dead, probably 3 dead marines.

Why CONTINUALLY assume that people playing onos are going to be A: Stupid and B: Unsupported?

:/

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>With proper tatics, they can. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So again, I come back to my original definition of an imbalance. The marines have to go out of their way to counter an onos.

Isn't it funny though how in your own example you utterly ignore other aliens and put a pitched battle between 3 marines and an onos in an idealised situation. GG.

Forlorn · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Again, what the HELL are other aliens doing? Sitting around with their fingers up the rear ends? You continuously dodge 2 things: Onos with supporting aliens, and Onos attacking a marine base/needed strongpoint. I wonder why....
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>THERE ARE NO OTHER ALIENS. Why do you CONTINUALLY bias the argument in your favour by assuming stupid things? All through this you've ignored my continual points about small spaces, the fact NS is close quarters anyway, alien support and marines HAVE to defend fixed positions (at some point). You make idealised situations to support your idea and ignore everything to the contrary.
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</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What about chained supported onos? They are cloaked and can get well within range of marines (No MT) if smart enough. What then? Will they be able to run from there? Hardly, one devour and two gouges later and you have 2 dead, probably 3 dead marines.

Why CONTINUALLY assume that people playing onos are going to be A: Stupid and B: Unsupported?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You dodge the main arguemnt which I've countered with every time:

The marine's aren't helpless, and they are much stronger than you give them credit for. "Oh no, skulks will be chasing the marines as they run from the onos!" ...So kill the skulks, and run from the onos, shoot the onos. Simple, really. Make sure as you run, you spread out, to avoid being stomped.

The reason I presented 3 vanilla marines vs. Onos was NOT because I wanted to make up some hypothetical situation where I could watch an onos get owned... It was because I wanted to tell you how it could be done, in a <b>simple</b> manner. Also, right now, 3 vanillia marines will never be able to something like that. Not in a million years.

You try to counter my argument by stating: "Okay, so maybe an onos could get beaten by vanilla marines. But what are the chances he will be alone??"

What makes you think the marines shall be alone and not upgraded as well? The marines could meet the entire kharaa army: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

But the marines would have their own advantages which you somehow manage to leave out in all of your posts. [SARCASM]No, the Jetpacker won't have a Shotty, who will then fly around the onos tearing him up. Don't forget about those skulks, who can't possibly be killed instantly by an HMG! And remember, lurks love to eat grenades for breakfast! Fades, guns can't kill them!!![/SARCASM]

Seriously! In nearly all of your examples, you dismiss my idea, stating still the marines will have no chance... yet the vets who that onos still drop all the time, you ignore them. You make it sound like my idea will strenghthen onos from the severity of which the marines get killed in your posts. That's <b>wrong</b>. Marines ARE able to fight back, and VERY effectivly. My idea <b>nerfs</b> the onos, but in such a way he becomes specialized and even more unique to the aliens.

Lets take a quick example of your outrageous posts:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And while they are watching the onos for this they aren't paying attention to the skulk or lerk that is about to kill them.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

According to this, the marines can't shoot a skulk and look at an onos at the same time... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> Okay.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And the other aliens are doing what? Sitting around in the hive having a cup of tea? The problem as I have continually said, is that NS is a game of close quarters. You don't HAVE huge distances to start with, you don't HAVE marathon corridors to ideally fight onos, you HAVE to defend certain points on a map or lose. How is this difficult for you to comprehend?
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Heh, funny. Marines do have to defend certain areas at certain times, true, but all the area's on the map that are <b>really</b> worth defending and aren't completely expendable are hives... and all the hives are located in pretty spacious areas. Which again defeats your idea of an onos just "driving" out marines who are completely helpless.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Honestly, you aren't thinking out REAL situations.
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Another funny one. REAL situations? You mean, REAL, <b>hypothetical</b> situations? The only REAL way to test this is with beta tests. Other than that, it's actually <b>best</b> to keep the situations small and not complex, because in smaller situations, the elements of the battle can be easily analized, but if we create large battles with lots of elements, something is bound to be missed, overlooked, or given too little credit...

Aegeri · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You dodge the main arguemnt which I've countered with every time:</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I've answered this repeatedly many times :/ You still have yet to actually counter mine ONCE.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The marine's aren't helpless, and they are much stronger than you give them credit for. "Oh no, skulks will be chasing the marines as they run from the onos!" ...So kill the skulks, and run from the onos, shoot the onos. Simple, really. Make sure as you run, you spread out, to avoid being stomped.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Kill the skulks? While the onos moves forward and supporting lerk gassing at the same time? Fade has blinked behind you? Again, the onos isn't the ONLY threat, and again this CAN be occuring at RIGHT IN THE MARINES FACES.

Something you have NEVER adressed yet. Again, games are close quarters, if they were not close quarters than why don't you see marine beating skulks 100% of the time?

Again, you are ASSUMING an ideal situation in a nice corridor with idiotic aliens. GG.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The reason I presented 3 vanilla marines vs. Onos was NOT because I wanted to make up some hypothetical situation where I could watch an onos get owned... It was because I wanted to tell you how it could be done, in a simple manner.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yes, in a real situation with idiot aliens yes that does happen. GG marine, but it WOULD NOT HAPPEN.

I can give you a perfectly hypothetical situation for a zealot rush to beat a mutalisk rush in original starcraft, it just DOESN'T HAPPEN except to an idiot zerg player.

Again, your argument was pointless in its sheer simplicity. It proved nothing other than demonstrating that, YES and unsupported onos has a chance of actually losing against 3 LMG marines in your perfect little situation. It would NEVER happen against good aliens.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You try to counter my argument by stating: "Okay, so maybe an onos could get beaten by vanilla marines. But what are the chances he will be alone??"

What makes you think the marines shall be alone and not upgraded as well? The marines could meet the entire kharaa army: </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The problem lies with the fact that one of the alien units grossly outplays the marines in many cases. The Onos HP and Armour more than allow it to survive multiple marines, and not every marine can focus on it before he cans it with your idealised idea.

Against a mixture of alien units, the onos makes that mixture far overbalanced, while the marines cannot really compensate with a suitable mixture of their own.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But the marines would have their own advantages which you somehow manage to leave out in all of your posts. [SARCASM]No, the Jetpacker won't have a Shotty, who will then fly around the onos tearing him up. Don't forget about those skulks, who can't possibly be killed instantly by an HMG! And remember, lurks love to eat grenades for breakfast! Fades, guns can't kill them!!![/SARCASM]</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Jetpacks have been heavily nerfed and again, where exactly are they using this jetpack? The same corridors you have continually preached as the solution to the onos? That are extremely low?

If JP's countered onos don't you think that the PT's wouldn't of had a problem with the single onos at hive 1?

The problem is the JP WILL die to other aliens (without HA), HA will die to the onos, lerks can spore cloud the onos/or areas around him with means that JP/shotty goes down like a brick, and when he runs out of fuel he dies to the onos. :/

Also aliens can get onos currently much faster than marines can get tier 3 tech, which is another part of the problem you have obviously missed :/

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Seriously! In nearly all of your examples, you dismiss my idea, stating still the marines will have no chance... yet the vets who that onos still drop all the time, you ignore them.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And these are??? I haven't heard that many vets say that hive one onos are easy to take down :/ Again, do you read the same beta boards I do?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You make it sound like my idea will strenghthen onos from the severity of which the marines get killed in your posts. That's wrong.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No, very obviously you haven't understood a word I've said. I've said it WILL NOT BE AN EFFECTIVE COUNTER FOR X REASONS.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Marines ARE able to fight back, and VERY effectivly. My idea nerfs the onos, but in such a way he becomes specialized and even more unique to the aliens.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

No and no. Have you ignored everything that has been said? Wait NO YOU HAVEN'T. Of course.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>According to this, the marines can't shoot a skulk and look at an onos at the same time... Okay.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So are you telling me that marines can magically shoot bullets out of their rear ends to fire at a skulk behind them, while focussing on an onos in FRONT of them?

Your logic is astounding. I'm the one making outrageous posts? What are you thinking here? That aliens are idiots who have no idea what they are doing?

Again, the problem with the onos is it takes a highly CONCERTED effort to defeat, while it does NOT take such an effort to kill tier 3 marines in the same way. If the other aliens are present then this becomes a major problem because YOU CANNOT SHOOT AN ONOS AND A SKULK AT THE SAME TIME.

Unless you have someone in your delightfully whimsical fantasies have added a magical bullet upgrade to the marine.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Heh, funny. Marines do have to defend certain areas at certain times, true, but all the area's on the map that are really worth defending and aren't completely expendable are hives... and all the hives are located in pretty spacious areas. Which again defeats your idea of an onos just "driving" out marines who are completely helpless.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Some hives are spacious and I do not regard some of them as 'spacious' at all. Certainly waste handling would be good, but again, other lifeforms and losing the base can be as bad as losing marines.

Again, I think we're talking about different degrees of space here. What I think is close quarters you probably think is a football field. :/ I'm beginning to see arguing with you is utterly pointless.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Which again defeats your idea of an onos just "driving" out marines who are completely helpless.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This proves you do NOT READ MY POSTS. As I already guessed anyway.

However, I have continually stated (again and again) that it is an ONOS WITH BACKUP. Not a single retard like you like to put in EVERY example but onos backed up by OTHER EVOLUTIONS.

I officially give up. If you aren't going to read my god damn posts I can't be **** arguing with you. Argue with yourself for all I care.

Forlorn · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Kill the skulks? While the onos moves forward and supporting lerk gassing at the same time? Fade has blinked behind you? Again, the onos isn't the ONLY threat, and again this CAN be occuring at RIGHT IN THE MARINES FACES.

Something you have NEVER adressed yet. Again, games are close quarters, if they were not close quarters than why don't you see marine beating skulks 100% of the time?

Again, you are ASSUMING an ideal situation in a nice corridor with idiotic aliens. GG.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yes, kill skulks. The onos moves forward, and lerk gas can stink up the room, but it won't touch the HA'ers, cause they are not hurt by it.

Fade's can blink.. yes, but they aren't instant, just very fast. Flay has changed blink so that it's a stamina eater, so unless you were pointblank to the fade, he will be hurting. If the fade came right up to an HMG/HA... bye bye <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'> . The LA marines can run, the HA marines can sit in the gas and shoot like crazy, the skulks shall pop, and lurks will sorta look at it all as it happens. If he fires umbra, then I can magically assume that my team has a GL, which is an instant kill on the the lerk, which leaves.. an onos! Who has probably reached the HA marines, he may kill them all, but the LA'ers who surrivied will pick him apart, not to mention he will be heavily damaged from the HA marines.

Also, last time I checked, marines don't beat skulks 100% of the time, it's more like 80%. Well, it isn't exact, but lets just say <b>more often than not</b> skulks lose.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Again, your argument was pointless in its sheer simplicity. It proved nothing other than demonstrating that, YES and unsupported onos has a chance of actually losing against 3 LMG marines in your perfect little situation. It would NEVER happen against good aliens.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

My example is showing that a ramboing onos is useless... and therefore becomes specialized, a heavy melee unit fighter.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Against a mixture of alien units, the onos makes that mixture far overbalanced, while the marines cannot really compensate with a suitable mixture of their own.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

But that's just it; marines CAN match back with diversity. I mean, in the last patch where aliens could get evolutions at all hives, marines were still winning around 50% of the time... many of the vets said that clan play was balenced. That's pretty good proof of that marines were powerful enough. The vets and PTs did say that the onos was questionable... which means the onos shouldn't be nerfed completly, just specialized!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also aliens can get onos currently much faster than marines can get tier 3 tech, which is another part of the problem you have obviously missed :/
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Obviously I did not miss this as I obviously state how even the weakest marines can still take down an onos.

Both LA + Any weapon or JP + weapon > Onos!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And these are??? I haven't heard that many vets say that hive one onos are easy to take down :/ Again, do you read the same beta boards I do?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yes, I do, and they say they can still tango with an onos.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So are you telling me that marines can magically shoot bullets out of their rear ends to fire at a skulk behind them, while focussing on an onos in FRONT of them?
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That's called an ambush, and in situations like those, aliens deserve to win. Nothing special about my onos there.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Some hives are spacious and I do not regard some of them as 'spacious' at all. Certainly waste handling would be good, but again, other lifeforms and losing the base can be as bad as losing marines.

Again, I think we're talking about different degrees of space here. What I think is close quarters you probably think is a football field. :/ I'm beginning to see arguing with you is utterly pointless.
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Do you play HL as your main FPS, or another game? Because if you do, those spaces in hives are anything but close-quarters.

archhaven · June 2003

Here is how I would balance the onos based on my experience playing 1.1:

- Slow his speed so that with celerity he runs slightly faster than LA marines.
- Decrease the speed enhancement from charge to half what it is now.
- Increase the stun duration of stomp by 2-3x and make it take almost all of the onos' energy.
- Increase health to 600 and armor to 400 (with level 3 cara).
- Ability order: gore, devour, stomp, charge
- Make devour give health/armor back at the rate of level 3 regen.

You guys need to stop arguing over something you haven't even played. The onos does not end all. Hell, I ran into a HA/HMG marine today as a hive 1 onos and because I had an LA marine in my belly I couldn't kill the HA marine before he killed me. I was at around 70% health, if that gives you any idea of how weak an onos can be. This doesn't mean, however, that the onos doesn't need balancing. I believe it still does, as I have posted here.

ka0s · June 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (archhaven @ Jun 18 2003, 06:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Here is how I would balance the onos based on my experience playing 1.1:

- Slow his speed so that with celerity he runs slightly faster than LA marines.
- Decrease the speed enhancement from charge to half what it is now.
- Increase the stun duration of stomp by 2-3x and make it take almost all of the onos' energy.
- Increase health to 600 and armor to 400 (with level 3 cara).
- Ability order: gore, devour, stomp, charge
- Make devour give health/armor back at the rate of level 3 regen.

You guys need to stop arguing over something you haven't even played. The onos does not end all. Hell, I ran into a HA/HMG marine today as a hive 1 onos and because I had an LA marine in my belly I couldn't kill the HA marine before he killed me. I was at around 70% health, if that gives you any idea of how weak an onos can be. This doesn't mean, however, that the onos doesn't need balancing. I believe it still does, as I have posted here.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
arch your insight on this is something that i would agree with totally.

Maian · June 2003

archhaven, thanks for showing that onos are not the invincible superman of the aliens. Aegeri's argument revolves around onos already being very overpowered, which I do not think is the case. Onos with support of other aliens is supposed to be a very powerful combination, but it wouldn't be unbeatable - it would just need a combination of marines with different types of weapons and armor.

I definitely agree with your suggestions. It would make the onos a slow tank. Marines would have ample time to try to take it down, but when it reaches a base, it could spell trouble.

The Idea Of Limiting Onos To Two Or Three Hives...

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