Nerfing usually isn't the best way to go - a better solution would be something that prevents a player from onosing if they are being dominated by the marines. I'm reluctant to suggest a res penalty for every death because I don't see it working very well... I'm not really very fond of a cap on the number of onii positions per hive (as suggested by lagger on the beta forums) either. Suggestions anyone? :\
<!--QuoteBegin--@egis+Jun 17 2003, 07:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (@egis @ Jun 17 2003, 07:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nerfing usually isn't the best way to go - a better solution would be something that prevents a player from onosing if they are being dominated by the marines. I'm reluctant to suggest a res penalty for every death because I don't see it working very well... I'm not really very fond of a cap on the number of onii positions per hive (as suggested by lagger on the beta forums) either. Suggestions anyone? :\ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But the point is, if they're being dominated, that kind of implies that the marines have taken many of the alien res nodes, or at least that they CAN do easily. If marines AREN'T hitting the alien res, at least they know WHY 4 oni just destroyed their base <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> (ie it's their own fault) I feel a slight onos nerf is the only way to go, maybe combined with a increased benefit from higher level abilities cf lower level ones? (ie hive 3 onos = uber game ender, hive 1 onos = fierce machine, or level3 def/mov/sens onos = RRWWAARRR, level0 def/mov/sens onos = roar.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Precisely -- the problem lies not in the ability for aliens to get Onos, but in the power of the Onos. Despite their strength, Onos still fall quite easily to concentrated marine fire, but weakening them is, I think, the easiest solution. Locking hives is still viable here as well, because hive 1 Onos just can't kick as much bottom. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that in itself is the problem, you have to have EVERYONE going an onos to kill the damn thing! What are the other aliens doing in this time? Watching? No I doubt they are. Onos+backup+skulks racing around the marines=owned marines.
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them?
I doubt it, especially considering the marines have to concentrate on the onos to have ANY chance whatsoever. That onos can however, kill 1 marine a LOT faster than 5 marines can kill it.
Everyone is right about this topic... The only problem is; There is no real solution. BUT:
There are favorites. Mine is definately a free evolution tree for the aliens. Because of the differse strategy etc. BUT (no more buts for me today <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
The onos needs to be nerfed down then, that means. A marine team (6 pers) locking two hives and having enough resources, should be able to kill two/three onos. But not a onos with a lerk and a fade and a skulk (2) and a gorge doing an orginized attack. Cuz they will trample a hive. BU... (....whatever....)
That means the aliens can't lose! No not true... But (grrrr) a two hive lockdown is not a point to start diggin in (so no more boring games). You have to keep going and stop them from getting organized. Get the last res nodes, take shots at there last hive to keep them busy and meanwhile prepare a final attack. The aliens however can start and attack you on another front (with onos fade etc.), replacing the battle and changing strategy
The only thing needed for this utterly very kewl game is a good and thorough nerfing of the alien species. So a Onos is not a win for the aliens, Bu... (doing it again....) it is a good specy needed to do some massive attacks on (par example) the marine base. And expecially at hive three it WILL be powerful, but h?, he deserved it (getting three hives and 100 rp wadda ya expect)
I can go on and on, but I will only start copying other ppls lines, so I will leave it at these 2 cents
EDIT: By the time I wrote this the whole issue changed, and made my post look not useful anymore, sorry guys just get distracted a lot at work <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Jun 17 2003, 08:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 17 2003, 08:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> bBut that in itself is the problem, you have to have EVERYONE going an onos to kill the damn thing! What are the other aliens doing in this time? Watching? No I doubt they are. Onos+backup+skulks racing around the marines=owned marines.
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them?
I doubt it, especially considering the marines have to concentrate on the onos to have ANY chance whatsoever. That onos can however, kill 1 marine a LOT faster than 5 marines can kill it.
That is NOT balanced at all :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> With no hive restrictions.. public games are going to turn into an onos fest which means marines are going to be owned, as in that scenario above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No they won't -- if you have seven players all saving for Onos, who's going to build hives and res and chmabers and OCs? And who's going to defend these with lerks and Fades? If all players save for onos -- aliens lose. If one or two save for Onos, isn't this a fair strategy? It'll take them ages and, when they do get it, depending on how many hives the marines have let them get, they'll still fall easily to a group of marines and there goes a massive res investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the thing is, GOOD players will destroy marines and won't purely save. With the res for kills system, it makes it so aliens can get to onos a LOT faster than you think.
As for falling easily to a group of marines, I disagree. If they did, why is it there was such a problem with aliens being owned, but getting an onos and winning the game?
This problem wouldn't exist if they 'fell' easily to a group of marines.
More likely, a stupid onos falls easily to a group of marines, but once a group of skulks go in first, the marines=owned.
Critical, I added this above with an edit, but realise I may have spent too long writing and it may have been missed. It addresses your point:
SteamedHam: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knowing that aliens already win most of the pub games in 1.04 overall (according to something i read), how do you think its going to be when you have the whole alien team saving for onos the entire game? The sad part is, the aliens will probably win with this strategy. We all know how painfully difficult it is for pub marines to finish off the alien hive in 1.04. Imagine how difficult it will be for 1.1 pub marines to kill a self-umbra hive with skulks constantly spawning in with a cloud of umbra. Whoever chooses to save for onos WILL eventually become onos and most likely will destroy the marines. Its just a matter of time.There would be people stacking aliens everygame (similar to how you see people stacking marine in 1.04) so that they could go onos. It would be pure chaos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No they won't -- if you have seven players all saving for Onos, who's going to build hives and res and chmabers and OCs? And who's going to defend these with Lerks and Fades? If all players save for Onos -- aliens lose. If one or two save for Onos, isn't this a fair strategy? It'll take them ages and, when they do get it, depending on how many hives the marines have let them get, they'll still fall easily to a group of marines and there goes a massive res investment.
You must remember the timescale involved to go Onos. It's just not practical to 'save for Onos' all the time. Any player who wishes to do this won't be going Gorge, Lerk, or Fade during this time making it easier for the marines with one less higher evolution lifeform to deal with. This is why strategies and trade-offs of one advantage over another are so important in a game like NS, to give people options for gameplay. If a player wants to save, that's both a risk for the team because he won't be helping out the team as a Lerk or Fade and possibly a burden in that he won't be using his res for building a fair whack of chambers. But the trade off might be worth if it he can take down a marine outpost or save a hive from being trashed. That, I think, is the essence of risk, strategy, skill, choice and, most importantly, gameplay.
And Aegeri: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But that in itself is the problem, you have to have EVERYONE going an onos to kill the damn thing! What are the other aliens doing in this time? Watching? No I doubt they are. Onos+backup+skulks racing around the marines=owned marines.
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please remember much has changed in 1,1. Onos and the marine weapons aren't quite how you're used to them in 1.04 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. 5 LMGs can take out an onos with little trouble, 2 HAs can do it no problem. Upgraded LMG marines can make quick work of an Onos, and upgraded HMG and GLs simply waste them. However, the recent changes to stomp have changed this, so this is certainly something that can be changed to re-balance it.
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jun 17 2003, 07:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jun 17 2003, 07:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Jun 17 2003, 08:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 17 2003, 08:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> bBut that in itself is the problem, you have to have EVERYONE going an onos to kill the damn thing! What are the other aliens doing in this time? Watching? No I doubt they are. Onos+backup+skulks racing around the marines=owned marines.
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them?
I doubt it, especially considering the marines have to concentrate on the onos to have ANY chance whatsoever. That onos can however, kill 1 marine a LOT faster than 5 marines can kill it.
That is NOT balanced at all :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With no hive restrictions.. public games are going to turn into an onos fest which means marines are going to be owned, as in that scenario above. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You make it sound so easy to go onos. What, pray tell, has the marines been doing all this time while "all" the aliens work up to 100 res?
If they have 60 res and the marines are heading for their last hive with HA/HMG/GL I promise you they wont stand around as skulk waiting for that last 40 res.
Still, that aside, Roobubba seems to have the only real solution here:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I feel a slight onos nerf is the only way to go, maybe combined with a increased benefit from higher level abilities cf lower level ones? (ie hive 3 onos = uber game ender, hive 1 onos = fierce machine, or level3 def/mov/sens onos = RRWWAARRR, level0 def/mov/sens onos = roar.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The HAM's and cri.tical can bring up valid points as to why the hive linked evolutionairy tree is better/unchained evolution = bad but at the end of the day no matter how good their arguement is they are going to lose.
Why are they going to lose? They are fighting MASSIVE public opinion. Almost everyone was looking forward to 1.1 because of the unchained evolution, and are fed up to the back teeth with the 1.04 system. If the 1.04 evolutionairy tree comes back in 1.1 - I quit. I'll keep an eye on things to see if it changes but I think that when I leave I will be leaving with a huge chunk of the NS community.
1.04 hive tree is simply far too unpopular to ever be put back in.
If I'm wrong - I'll come back in a month and apologise.
If I'm right - there will be no-one to apologise to - the boards (and the servers) will be empty.
Another thing that I find ridiculous about no hive restrictions: Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby.
Whereas, with hive restrictions, aliens have a definitive goal that they must meet. That skulk can still sit around and save, but he is depending on some gorges to build hives. I think that inter-dependence between the different Kharaa is something to be encouraged.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You make it sound so easy to go onos. What, pray tell, has the marines been doing all this time while "all" the aliens work up to 100 res?
If they have 60 res and the marines are heading for their last hive with HA/HMG/GL I promise you they wont stand around as skulk waiting for that last 40 res.
Still, that aside, Roobubba seems to have the only real solution here:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But isn't that the point? Again, I refer back to the many complaints on the beta forum about aliens losing badly and then 1 onos clearing the marines out. If it was so simple to decimate onos like you say, <b>why was this problem reported quite often?</b>
The other thing is, you are CONTINUALLY assuming one onos vs 5 marines. That will NEVER happen unless the onos is stupid. I've put forward, every time, 1 onos, 2-3 skulks and maybe a fade. What if the gorge is there too. That combination is more than likely to kill the marines, especially if stomp is there (marines can't fire) or charge (and assuming the onos knows what it is doing).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You must remember the timescale involved to go Onos. It's just not practical to 'save for Onos' all the time. Any player who wishes to do this won't be going Gorge, Lerk, or Fade during this time making it easier for the marines with one less higher evolution lifeform to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the skulk is quite lethal to marines especially at the start. It keeps lethality throughout too (consider the current marine favoured situation, good skulks still hold their own). Skulks can't beat HA I agree, but skulks can kill HA when the HA have to focus on another target.
Again that is the ENTIRE problem. You HAVE to concentrate fire to beat an onos, but if that onos is smart it WON'T be the only alien around.
Likewise, what about the good skulks that kill maybe 10 or so marines? That is another 10-30 (probably 15.5) res right there. That shortens the time for an onos as well.
Then you could get TWO of them. 1 the skulk who has been saving and the other who got enough res from fragging people.
If the marines lock down 2 hives - what can the aliens do to get them back? If you can solve this one in a reasonable way where even a half-skilled team can break it consistently with a bit of teamwork effort then it's not that much of an issue. But currently - there is no hope!
My heart just sinks when I hear '2 hive lockdown' in either 1.04 or 1.1 - It is not a nice prospect at all, as it in no short terms means the slow death of Natural Selection. 1.1 is meant to be the fountain of life for NS, not the Nail in the Coffin!
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jun 17 2003, 07:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jun 17 2003, 07:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another thing that I find ridiculous about no hive restrictions: Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby.
Whereas, with hive restrictions, aliens have a definitive goal that they must meet. That skulk can still sit around and save, but he is depending on some gorges to build hives. I think that inter-dependence between the different Kharaa is something to be encouraged. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But surely while he is sitting there doing nothing - the marine team are doing SOMETHING.
Pretty much unstoppable? Really? Teched marines are no match for an onos? Sounds like the sort of thing that playtesting is supposed to prevent.
We CANNOT go back to the old way. We have tasted (members in our dreams - pts in their tests) from the cup of unchained evolutions and I for one can never go back to the slop of hive lockdowns.
Lets go back to the unchained - lets make it work. If onos are unstoppable atm, change them. Make them stoppable. Balance the damn thing.
Oh - and if onii are so unstoppable - that just adds weight to the arguement that onos are basically useless. A lifeform that only ever comes along to reinforce in the minds of the marines "Yes really - you HAVE lost". Completely pointless.
Either they are pointless in 1.0x model, or they require serious balancing in 1.1 model - i know which i prefer
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another thing that I find ridiculous about no hive restrictions: Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Critical, how is this any different from marines just waiting for res to build? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Both teams get nodes, both teams get res coming in while they wait. Both teams spend as they see fit. And with marines, the entire tech tree is available from the start, whereas aliens still have limited skills and upgrades. And as for the effectiveness of Onos, you've hit the nail on the head. This is what needs to be tweaked, how powerful they are, not the fact that they can be obtained at hive 1.
One of the best thrills of the game is taking down an Onos. If they are just hive 3 evolutions, they will rarely be seen except at end game where taking them down doesn't matter. At least at hive 1, and properly adjusted to balance them better, marines will have the joy of being able to waste them in an epic fight, and have it make big difference to the game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. So I agree, change them so they're not so powerful (with and without carapace) at all hive levels and see how it goes. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But surely while he is sitting there doing nothing - the marine team are doing SOMETHING.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, it is relatively even I'd imagine. This is because you don't get a gorge like in 1.1 that doesn't skulk as well. So really it becomes even. Remember, the marine team has one less player too=The commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pretty much unstoppable? Really? Teched marines are no match for an onos? Sounds like the sort of thing that playtesting is supposed to prevent.
We CANNOT go back to the old way. We have tasted (members in our dreams - pts in their tests) from the cup of unchained evolutions and I for one can never go back to the slop of hive lockdowns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but something HAS to be done about the onos in order to make it work. Don't you find it in the least strange that all the other alien evolutions are fine and fit in their place, but the one that doesn't is buggering up the best decision?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets go back to the unchained - lets make it work. If onos are unstoppable atm, change them. Make them stoppable. Balance the damn thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally think the onos should be removed and replaced. It just doesn't make sense anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh - and if onii are so unstoppable - that just adds weight to the arguement that onos are basically useless. A lifeform that only ever comes along to reinforce in the minds of the marines "Yes really - you HAVE lost". Completely pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, I think the onos should be changed into the alien mobile support/heavy seige unit. It should not be a GG alien unit, but instead one that aids the aliens in countering HA/HMG or whatever.
Perhaps the tech needs to be expanded, or a new alien lifeform made or something. But there has to be some bridge between the onos currently being a game ender, and a 3rd tier unit that actually SUPPORTS alien attacks. The onos being some sort of living tank also doesn't fit with the general alien theme.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Either they are pointless in 1.0x model, or they require serious balancing in 1.1 model - i know which i prefer<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jun 17 2003, 07:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jun 17 2003, 07:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another thing that I find ridiculous about no hive restrictions: Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby.
Whereas, with hive restrictions, aliens have a definitive goal that they must meet. That skulk can still sit around and save, but he is depending on some gorges to build hives. I think that inter-dependence between the different Kharaa is something to be encouraged. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's my point in a way critical:
Why should there be one class in a game that so vastly overpowers all the others that it's a game ender? If the onos is limited to hive 3, I think we all agree, it's a waste of time and might as well not be there. Being so overly powerful, 3 hives = marines lose. The problem is, if aliens have 3 hives, the marines have pretty much lost anyway. They will have very little territory on the map, hence very little res, and the aliens will have the majority. The onos is pointless.
However, if you nerf the onos at lower levels, and make it available earlier (be that by making it hive 2, or losing the hive restrictions and slowing the res and making it more expensive, or even making it only available from lerk or fade, I'm just throwing ideas in here), but make sure that at 3 hives and full upgrades, it really is still the game ender it looks, that, I feel, is a more comfortable balance.
As someone else pointed out earlier, HA at level 0 with lmg != level 3 HA/HMG. In the same way, onos, hive3 level3 !=onos, hive 1 level0. The point is, we never, ever EVER, get to see onos, hive 1 level 0. If the difference in strength/stamina/damage of an onos between level 0/hive 1 and level3/hive 3 is increased, ie by nerfing the lower levels (maybe tie in with increased health for more hives idea?), then you will force the team to work together: I for one wouldn't want to be a lone 1 hive onos with no company. Give me a lerk, gorge and skulk at my side and we've got something going.
I really feel that we need to promote teamplay, and I feel that's the general consensus of the community, however without bringing in some sort of "marine hive" (eg marines need to get to auxiliary command centres in the map in order to research different tech), the sheer imbalance in having one race dependant only on res, and the other dependant also on hives is one that we cannot work with.
Just my 2p <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
[sorry for double posting if I did, I'm hoping the speed of the forum will compensate]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the best thrills of the game is taking down an Onos. If they are just hive 3 evolutions, they will rarely be seen except at end game where taking them down doesn't matter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that is exactly it, its just a LOLOLOL! OMG I KILLED TEH ONOS! LOLOLOL! It is NOTHING special except it just means you've delayed your loss by a little longer.
Again, once you see onos you know the game has ended and its time to pack up and go home.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As someone else pointed out earlier, HA at level 0 with lmg != level 3 HA/HMG. In the same way, onos, hive3 level3 !=onos, hive 1 level0. The point is, we never, ever EVER, get to see onos, hive 1 level 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hold up here: When we did they STILL dominated. Again, I pose to you if the onos is NOT a problem in an open hive evolution as is then WHY the complaints about those onos owning up? There isn't a problem if the onos is taken down as easily as some may suggest, but it isn't.
The problem is a HA/HMG lvl 3 can be beaten by a Onos hive 1 level 0 (though for an extra 2 res I'd bet on carapace or regen). A group of them are clearly being beaten by Onos with alien support, or again, the many reports of marine dominance being turned around by a single onos would NOT occur!
Aegeri you are still thinking along the lines of the almighty all powerful onos before whose might all will fall.
We all agree that if the onos is a hive 1 option as is - ie uber powerful, then it wont work.
What we ARE trying to say is we want the onos as a normal part of the game earlier on. And we are prepared to nerf him a little to fit his big fat caracase in.
We want him changed so at hive 1 he is pretty bloody good, but not unstoppable until he has a few upgrades to back him up.
EDIT
lol Aegeri I just realised we are both arguing the same point - sorry <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ehehehehe /racks up one teamkill - aegeri scratches head
exactly, so nerf the ONOS at lower levels (ie nerf him all over, but make the abilities stronger at stronger levels for ONOS)...
Seems like a sensible solution to me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Finally, one last point... If the abillities are stronger, maybe they could cost more? So for an onos, it'd cost more to upgrade (and if you've upgraded before it just gets added on to the onos cost?) Or is that too complicated? Something so that a cost of 6 + someone else putting up 2 more hives doesn't make the onos unfeasibly great with minimal cost. It should COST to get those abilities!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol Aegeri I just realised we are both arguing the same point - sorry
Ehehehehe /racks up one teamkill - aegeri scratches head <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah, I want open evolutions, but the onos needs to be changed/removed[IE replaced] before that can happen really.
This is my last post before signing off for the night and no longer involving myself in Beta threads in the general forum.. Some of the 1.04 strats will no longer work (as well). Defense chambers might no longer heal creatures, etc. Everyone whose group starts with a M and ends with embers does not actually know how 1.1 plays. All we have is conjecture. What we think may be valid might not be, but digging through this sludge is tedious and could have been spent better in the beta discussion forum where it belongs. I think we're getting too involved in something we are both powerless and clueless about. Thanks, goodnight, excellent points, mart, critical, and Steamedham, is it?
I wrote this very early in the morning without any sleep, I apologize that it sounds like I am ESL.
All im saying is to to give the system a chance. Hives have been made ridiculously easy to obtain early on. I think 1.04 gave the hive restriction system a bad reputation due to how much time it took to get a second hive.
Also, Martigen I didn't actually mean that everyone on the team would save for onos (though i think it would work on most deathmatch style pub servers). I meant like 4-5 guys out of an 8 man team. The other noble players would go gorge to either drop hives/RTs/ chambers. Sorry about that confusion, but you get the gist of it.
I think a lot of you are forgetting that while the Aliens are sitting in their hive, saving up for Onos, the marine team will be taking the rest of the map, and one or two skulks + a gorge or two is not enough to stop them from doing that. If the Marines get all of the res nodes on the map, the Khaara can't go Onos, and then the Rines tech up rather quickly and own them with massive tech upgrades. You figure that having 1-2 resource towers with half of the team going Onos leaves you with a VERY limited ammount of resources.
If all of the alien team goes out and works with the rest of the team, yes they can still save up, however they will inevitably get owned by the marine's quick tech abilities like level one armor/weapons, which I as a comm usually get relatively immediately. The Skulks have to use upgrades and evolves to be able to keep their res towers earlier on in the game, and this kind of ruins the half team onos strategy, because if they do try that, they lose due to res domination, and if they don't, they can't get Onos asap. Either way, half a team going onos isn't viable, even against pub server n00b Marines.
I don't care what you say, it doesn't take a skilled team to dominate skulks saving for Onos with lvl 3 everything and upgraded weapons. If the Khaara do abandon the 5 people going Onos strategy and instead try to compete for resources with smaller evolutions and upgrades, then it becomes even, and by the time they both can get to their highest tech, this is when problems arise. Any Onos going before then is improbable, since it takes 100 res to get to an Onos, and untill then, the Marines are going to be pounding you with moderate to advanced tech upgrades.
So, how do pub n00b Marines counter a pack of Oni even with their highest tech? While Jetpacks and HMGs are not AS viable as before, but Flayra has labeled them as the official Onos counter, has he not? I'm sure a pack of JPs/HMGs that have some idea of what they're doing could take out a pack of Oni or atleast put up a fight. However, I agree, HA/HMGs have no chance. Even with this, however, there is still the problem that Pubbers still usually can't take out Oni. I advocate toning down the Onos a bit, just to the point where it's enough to keep pub mariners in the game, even if it isn't a very good chance.
Another idea has already been suggested, but I am taking it further.
<i>Why not give all evolutions available at hive one, but tie the success of these more to the hives than in 1.1p?</i>
For example, on top of attacks and upgrade chambers, make the Onos's attack damage, health, armor and/or stamina less than it would be with two hives (etc.)? Do it enough that Oni and Fades are still viable, but really need that extra hive or two to be a game ender. This could fix the problem of Hive lockdowns, while still making it impossible for a Hive One Oni pack to completely ravage the Marines and dominate the game. Combine this with a minor Onos tweak, and I believe it would be incredibly balanced.
<i>In either case</i>
As it is, two hive lockdowns are too uncounterable. It's been pointed out fifty times that two hive lockdowns are no fun once they happen, are near impossible to counter in organized clan matches, let alone impossible in pub games.
With <b>so</b> many possible ways to fix the problems with unchained evolution that would be extremely viable, balanced, and easy to do, I fail to see any logical reason to stay with the chained hive evolution format that is in 1.1q/1.0x.
<!--QuoteBegin--STEAMEDHAM+Jun 17 2003, 08:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (STEAMEDHAM @ Jun 17 2003, 08:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All im saying is to to give the system a chance. Hives have been made ridiculously easy to obtain early on. I think 1.04 gave the hive restriction system a bad reputation due to how much time it took to get a second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If I remember correctly, it has already been given a chance, and has less appeal to the PTs than 1.1p, even after playing it for a while. Hive lockdowns have already started to happen on Public and Clan games alike, and they have worked. If hive lockdowns are already starting to happen, why is any further speculation needed as to whether they will, when the evidence is already there?
Perhaps it would help to better clarify for everyone one of the main issues with Onos in previous builds, and why there were sometimes over-emotional posts about them.
So here's the deal:
<b>#</b> In fighting Onos are a little strong (they could do with a wee little nerf), but not too much. Onos + supporting alien fights are great fun, and depending on tech level of both sides and skill, can go either way. Just as it should be -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>.
<b>#</b> Marines vs a few Onos will more readily get wasted, unless the marines have a lot of tech and also grouped. The type of fight you might see later in the game at a marine base or alien hive if it's been a close fight. Just as it should be -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>.
<b>#</b> Marines vs a hoarde of Onos and other hive 3 aliens = alien win. Just as it should be -- afterall, if this doesn't spell an alien win, then what does? -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>.
Frankly almost everything about how they play, and how frequently they can appear, is just fine.
So what's the problem? Marines cap res faster than aliens. Marines cap a load of res, and start teching. After a while, when the alien team has been building/fighting and expanding, an alien goes Onos. What does he do? Attack the marines? Generally, no -- he will likely die at the marine base (I can't stress enough that Onos are no longer Uber! Marines + good base defence = dead Onos (though again the recent Stomp change has put this off balance)). Anyway, this is what he does:
<b>#</b> Intelligently, he goes around and takes out all the marine res nodes, as structures fall quickly to an Onos and frequently there's nothing to stop him as turrets are so shockingly bad right now. Result: pretty soon the marines have no res nodes, and as their res dries up and the aliens overtake them, they are destined to lose.
Moreover although a group of even LMG marines can down an Onos, by the time marines make it to a node under attack it's already dead and if it isn't, usually the marines can only spare one marine to go check on it, and of course an Onos will win versus one marine (just as it should -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>!)
So, the answer lies in preventing Onos from trashing marine res so efficiently. One solution as we're trying (I presume this is one of Flayra's reasons) is to put the hive limitation back in, but this to me is far too much a tradeoff and dramatically limits gameplay.
What's interesting is that the extra power of electricity in 1.1q might change this for electrified nodes. If the Onos was weakened a little, this plus the 30 damage a second from electicity could well see nodes adequately fending off that rogue Onos, esepcially if it's backed up by another 30 dam electrified TF next to it, at least until help arrives and when it does there'll be a wounded Onos. Alternatively, another solution is to perhaps have electricity negate regeneration in range, since that is a popular choice for Onos going res hunting. Bilebomb can also be an issue here, but as it requires a second hive and phatteh's are both slow and easy to kill, it's adequately balanced.
Regardless, that's all up to Flayra but the problem is <i>not</i> about the pure strength of the Onos. They are frequently downable (prior to 1.1q). This problem lies in marine res nodes being so vulnerable to the hulking beast. Fix this, and then adequately balance the alien res intake, and we're flying <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It is already <i><b>so</i></b> close to having a great feel and this is, I think, one of the last big obstacles to be balanced.
well, that's pretty reassuring then, so a slight ONOS nerf and a solution to marine res node weakness against onos and strength against all other forms...
Any gorge and alien team that dies cus of a 2 hive lockdown has an unexperienced noob gorge. when 2 hives are locked you just need +2 gorges AND offensive gorges on frontline!!!
You need defensive more camping and hiding skulks that stay defensive when half team is dead and no stupid suicide rushers.
A wave of 5 skulks and 2 gorges can kill whole 2 hive lockdown bases. Teamwork and brain using wons.
I wholeheartedly support unchaining hives and forms. As Dread mentioned, a serious consequence of this is <b>many alien abilities are not fully utilized</b>. The 2 hive lockdown is indeed boring it should only be viable at very end game (to prevent gorges from popping up new hives while the last one is going down).
My set of solutions:
<b>1)</b> Make the onos serve a new purpose. Right now, it's just like a super-fade, which creates this paradigm of waiting to onos. Instead, why not make it serve as a different function?
<b>I suggest the onos be some sort of mobile outpost.</b> Make it really really slow and buff up it's HP and armor. The marines would have a lot of time to take it out before it reaches their bases. To prevent it from being overpowered, the regen evolution upgrade will need to be revised.
Counters to the onos would be anything that's faster than it (light marines, JPers) and anything that can take advantage of its slow speed (GL).
<b>2)</b> I'm seeing alot of these linking health/armor to hives suggestions running amok. Instead of this messy solution, just tweak alien abilities around so that 2nd hive abilities are much more powerful than 1st hive ones, and 3rd hive abilities are much more powerful than 2nd hive ones. This solution would not only balance all 3 teirs, but let the hive still be a viable target.
<b>3)</b> The argument that aliens would avoid middle-class forms (fade, lerk) to morph to onos is valid, despite the fact that fades were underpowered at that version. This is why I suggest the onos have a function that aliens lack.
However, the onos would still be able to annihilate electrified res towers too quickly. The marines can't really do much to stop alien res from flowing other than destroying alien RTs. Even then, a good skulk could suicide a lot and get a lot of kills, even if it gives marines res each time it dies.
This sounds balanced, but I offer a new way to balance it that makes marines and aliens more unique:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maian: What if killing aliens and alien structures REDUCES ALIEN res instead of INCREASING MARINE res? Killing an alien would reduce res for that alien only. Killing a structure would reduce res for all aliens proportional to the cost of the structure. It's far more intuitive than the current (1.1) kill->res system and still discourages marines from just sitting in their bases twiddling their thumbs.
Killing OCs does not affect alien res, because OCs are meant to be killed So now, aliens, especially gorges, should defend their structures or risk losing res.
An alien stores its res in its body, so when it die, it leaks some res. The rest is absorbed back into the hive via bacterium for another lucky alien to receive (the same player respawning).
As for alien structures causing all aliens to lose res, something along the lines of borrowing res from aliens via bacterium due to panic would do.
If an alien would reach negative res, it should bump back to 0 res. Why? Reason 1: Flayra won't have to worry about making room for a negative sign. Reason 2: Newbies would hate the game (at least on the aliens side).
The amount of res lost shouldn't be huge - unless an alien dies every 15 seconds, that alien should still net positive res over time. You don't want to frustrate newbies too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shameless plug: you can discuss this idea <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=35348' target='_blank'>here</a> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With this, marines now have 2 ways to prevent onos: kill alien RTS and/or kill aliens and alien structures.
I disagree with that idea. It will make it impossible for aliens to get any benefit from the res for kills system.
Aliens die far more often than marines do, simply a factor of range. It would also discourage aliens from attacking because attacking=potentially lose res=lose game.
Comments
But the point is, if they're being dominated, that kind of implies that the marines have taken many of the alien res nodes, or at least that they CAN do easily. If marines AREN'T hitting the alien res, at least they know WHY 4 oni just destroyed their base <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> (ie it's their own fault)
I feel a slight onos nerf is the only way to go, maybe combined with a increased benefit from higher level abilities cf lower level ones? (ie hive 3 onos = uber game ender, hive 1 onos = fierce machine, or level3 def/mov/sens onos = RRWWAARRR, level0 def/mov/sens onos = roar.)
But that in itself is the problem, you have to have EVERYONE going an onos to kill the damn thing! What are the other aliens doing in this time? Watching? No I doubt they are. Onos+backup+skulks racing around the marines=owned marines.
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them?
I doubt it, especially considering the marines have to concentrate on the onos to have ANY chance whatsoever. That onos can however, kill 1 marine a LOT faster than 5 marines can kill it.
That is NOT balanced at all :/
BUT:
There are favorites.
Mine is definately a free evolution tree for the aliens. Because of the differse strategy etc. BUT (no more buts for me today <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
The onos needs to be nerfed down then, that means. A marine team (6 pers) locking two hives and having enough resources, should be able to kill two/three onos. But not a onos with a lerk and a fade and a skulk (2) and a gorge doing an orginized attack. Cuz they will trample a hive.
BU... (....whatever....)
That means the aliens can't lose! No not true... But (grrrr) a two hive lockdown is not a point to start diggin in (so no more boring games). You have to keep going and stop them from getting organized. Get the last res nodes, take shots at there last hive to keep them busy and meanwhile prepare a final attack.
The aliens however can start and attack you on another front (with onos fade etc.), replacing the battle and changing strategy
The only thing needed for this utterly very kewl game is a good and thorough nerfing of the alien species. So a Onos is not a win for the aliens, Bu... (doing it again....) it is a good specy needed to do some massive attacks on (par example) the marine base. And expecially at hive three it WILL be powerful, but h?, he deserved it (getting three hives and 100 rp wadda ya expect)
I can go on and on, but I will only start copying other ppls lines, so I will leave it at these 2 cents
EDIT:
By the time I wrote this the whole issue changed, and made my post look not useful anymore, sorry guys just get distracted a lot at work <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them?
I doubt it, especially considering the marines have to concentrate on the onos to have ANY chance whatsoever. That onos can however, kill 1 marine a LOT faster than 5 marines can kill it.
That is NOT balanced at all :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With no hive restrictions.. public games are going to turn into an onos fest which means marines are going to be owned, as in that scenario above.
But the thing is, GOOD players will destroy marines and won't purely save. With the res for kills system, it makes it so aliens can get to onos a LOT faster than you think.
As for falling easily to a group of marines, I disagree. If they did, why is it there was such a problem with aliens being owned, but getting an onos and winning the game?
This problem wouldn't exist if they 'fell' easily to a group of marines.
More likely, a stupid onos falls easily to a group of marines, but once a group of skulks go in first, the marines=owned.
SteamedHam:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Knowing that aliens already win most of the pub games in 1.04 overall (according to something i read), how do you think its going to be when you have the whole alien team saving for onos the entire game? The sad part is, the aliens will probably win with this strategy. We all know how painfully difficult it is for pub marines to finish off the alien hive in 1.04. Imagine how difficult it will be for 1.1 pub marines to kill a self-umbra hive with skulks constantly spawning in with a cloud of umbra. Whoever chooses to save for onos WILL eventually become onos and most likely will destroy the marines. Its just a matter of time.There would be people stacking aliens everygame (similar to how you see people stacking marine in 1.04) so that they could go onos. It would be pure chaos.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they won't -- if you have seven players all saving for Onos, who's going to build hives and res and chmabers and OCs? And who's going to defend these with Lerks and Fades? If all players save for Onos -- aliens lose. If one or two save for Onos, isn't this a fair strategy? It'll take them ages and, when they do get it, depending on how many hives the marines have let them get, they'll still fall easily to a group of marines and there goes a massive res investment.
You must remember the timescale involved to go Onos. It's just not practical to 'save for Onos' all the time. Any player who wishes to do this won't be going Gorge, Lerk, or Fade during this time making it easier for the marines with one less higher evolution lifeform to deal with. This is why strategies and trade-offs of one advantage over another are so important in a game like NS, to give people options for gameplay. If a player wants to save, that's both a risk for the team because he won't be helping out the team as a Lerk or Fade and possibly a burden in that he won't be using his res for building a fair whack of chambers. But the trade off might be worth if it he can take down a marine outpost or save a hive from being trashed. That, I think, is the essence of risk, strategy, skill, choice and, most importantly, gameplay.
And Aegeri:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
But that in itself is the problem, you have to have EVERYONE going an onos to kill the damn thing! What are the other aliens doing in this time? Watching? No I doubt they are. Onos+backup+skulks racing around the marines=owned marines.
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please remember much has changed in 1,1. Onos and the marine weapons aren't quite how you're used to them in 1.04 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. 5 LMGs can take out an onos with little trouble, 2 HAs can do it no problem. Upgraded LMG marines can make quick work of an Onos, and upgraded HMG and GLs simply waste them. However, the recent changes to stomp have changed this, so this is certainly something that can be changed to re-balance it.
M
1 Onos can smash 1 HA.
1 HA gets smashed by 1 onos.
5-6 HA can kill 1 onos.
But can 5-6 HA kill 1 onos in a hive, with DC's, with a lerk and 3 skulks and a fade going them?
I doubt it, especially considering the marines have to concentrate on the onos to have ANY chance whatsoever. That onos can however, kill 1 marine a LOT faster than 5 marines can kill it.
That is NOT balanced at all :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With no hive restrictions.. public games are going to turn into an onos fest which means marines are going to be owned, as in that scenario above. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make it sound so easy to go onos. What, pray tell, has the marines been doing all this time while "all" the aliens work up to 100 res?
If they have 60 res and the marines are heading for their last hive with HA/HMG/GL I promise you they wont stand around as skulk waiting for that last 40 res.
Still, that aside, Roobubba seems to have the only real solution here:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I feel a slight onos nerf is the only way to go, maybe combined with a increased benefit from higher level abilities cf lower level ones? (ie hive 3 onos = uber game ender, hive 1 onos = fierce machine, or level3 def/mov/sens onos = RRWWAARRR, level0 def/mov/sens onos = roar.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The HAM's and cri.tical can bring up valid points as to why the hive linked evolutionairy tree is better/unchained evolution = bad but at the end of the day no matter how good their arguement is they are going to lose.
Why are they going to lose? They are fighting MASSIVE public opinion. Almost everyone was looking forward to 1.1 because of the unchained evolution, and are fed up to the back teeth with the 1.04 system. If the 1.04 evolutionairy tree comes back in 1.1 - I quit. I'll keep an eye on things to see if it changes but I think that when I leave I will be leaving with a huge chunk of the NS community.
1.04 hive tree is simply far too unpopular to ever be put back in.
If I'm wrong - I'll come back in a month and apologise.
If I'm right - there will be no-one to apologise to - the boards (and the servers) will be empty.
Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby.
Whereas, with hive restrictions, aliens have a definitive goal that they must meet. That skulk can still sit around and save, but he is depending on some gorges to build hives. I think that inter-dependence between the different Kharaa is something to be encouraged.
If they have 60 res and the marines are heading for their last hive with HA/HMG/GL I promise you they wont stand around as skulk waiting for that last 40 res.
Still, that aside, Roobubba seems to have the only real solution here:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But isn't that the point? Again, I refer back to the many complaints on the beta forum about aliens losing badly and then 1 onos clearing the marines out. If it was so simple to decimate onos like you say, <b>why was this problem reported quite often?</b>
The other thing is, you are CONTINUALLY assuming one onos vs 5 marines. That will NEVER happen unless the onos is stupid. I've put forward, every time, 1 onos, 2-3 skulks and maybe a fade. What if the gorge is there too. That combination is more than likely to kill the marines, especially if stomp is there (marines can't fire) or charge (and assuming the onos knows what it is doing).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You must remember the timescale involved to go Onos. It's just not practical to 'save for Onos' all the time. Any player who wishes to do this won't be going Gorge, Lerk, or Fade during this time making it easier for the marines with one less higher evolution lifeform to deal with. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But the skulk is quite lethal to marines especially at the start. It keeps lethality throughout too (consider the current marine favoured situation, good skulks still hold their own). Skulks can't beat HA I agree, but skulks can kill HA when the HA have to focus on another target.
Again that is the ENTIRE problem. You HAVE to concentrate fire to beat an onos, but if that onos is smart it WON'T be the only alien around.
Likewise, what about the good skulks that kill maybe 10 or so marines? That is another 10-30 (probably 15.5) res right there. That shortens the time for an onos as well.
Then you could get TWO of them. 1 the skulk who has been saving and the other who got enough res from fragging people.
I don't see your argument working.
If the marines lock down 2 hives - what can the aliens do to get them back? If you can solve this one in a reasonable way where even a half-skilled team can break it consistently with a bit of teamwork effort then it's not that much of an issue. But currently - there is no hope!
My heart just sinks when I hear '2 hive lockdown' in either 1.04 or 1.1 - It is not a nice prospect at all, as it in no short terms means the slow death of Natural Selection. 1.1 is meant to be the fountain of life for NS, not the Nail in the Coffin!
Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby.
Whereas, with hive restrictions, aliens have a definitive goal that they must meet. That skulk can still sit around and save, but he is depending on some gorges to build hives. I think that inter-dependence between the different Kharaa is something to be encouraged. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But surely while he is sitting there doing nothing - the marine team are doing SOMETHING.
Pretty much unstoppable? Really? Teched marines are no match for an onos? Sounds like the sort of thing that playtesting is supposed to prevent.
We CANNOT go back to the old way. We have tasted (members in our dreams - pts in their tests) from the cup of unchained evolutions and I for one can never go back to the slop of hive lockdowns.
Lets go back to the unchained - lets make it work. If onos are unstoppable atm, change them. Make them stoppable. Balance the damn thing.
Oh - and if onii are so unstoppable - that just adds weight to the arguement that onos are basically useless. A lifeform that only ever comes along to reinforce in the minds of the marines "Yes really - you HAVE lost". Completely pointless.
Either they are pointless in 1.0x model, or they require serious balancing in 1.1 model - i know which i prefer
Another thing that I find ridiculous about no hive restrictions:
Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Critical, how is this any different from marines just waiting for res to build? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Both teams get nodes, both teams get res coming in while they wait. Both teams spend as they see fit. And with marines, the entire tech tree is available from the start, whereas aliens still have limited skills and upgrades. And as for the effectiveness of Onos, you've hit the nail on the head. This is what needs to be tweaked, how powerful they are, not the fact that they can be obtained at hive 1.
One of the best thrills of the game is taking down an Onos. If they are just hive 3 evolutions, they will rarely be seen except at end game where taking them down doesn't matter. At least at hive 1, and properly adjusted to balance them better, marines will have the joy of being able to waste them in an epic fight, and have it make big difference to the game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. So I agree, change them so they're not so powerful (with and without carapace) at all hive levels and see how it goes. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
M
Not really, it is relatively even I'd imagine. This is because you don't get a gorge like in 1.1 that doesn't skulk as well. So really it becomes even. Remember, the marine team has one less player too=The commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pretty much unstoppable? Really? Teched marines are no match for an onos? Sounds like the sort of thing that playtesting is supposed to prevent.
We CANNOT go back to the old way. We have tasted (members in our dreams - pts in their tests) from the cup of unchained evolutions and I for one can never go back to the slop of hive lockdowns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but something HAS to be done about the onos in order to make it work. Don't you find it in the least strange that all the other alien evolutions are fine and fit in their place, but the one that doesn't is buggering up the best decision?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets go back to the unchained - lets make it work. If onos are unstoppable atm, change them. Make them stoppable. Balance the damn thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally think the onos should be removed and replaced. It just doesn't make sense anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh - and if onii are so unstoppable - that just adds weight to the arguement that onos are basically useless. A lifeform that only ever comes along to reinforce in the minds of the marines "Yes really - you HAVE lost". Completely pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, I think the onos should be changed into the alien mobile support/heavy seige unit. It should not be a GG alien unit, but instead one that aids the aliens in countering HA/HMG or whatever.
Perhaps the tech needs to be expanded, or a new alien lifeform made or something. But there has to be some bridge between the onos currently being a game ender, and a 3rd tier unit that actually SUPPORTS alien attacks. The onos being some sort of living tank also doesn't fit with the general alien theme.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Either they are pointless in 1.0x model, or they require serious balancing in 1.1 model - i know which i prefer<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rebalancing!
Aliens saving for Onos dont have to do anything. Res will eventually and slowy build up and then they can go onos. Unless they get stuck, and Onos is pretty much unstoppable with carapace or a gorge nearby.
Whereas, with hive restrictions, aliens have a definitive goal that they must meet. That skulk can still sit around and save, but he is depending on some gorges to build hives. I think that inter-dependence between the different Kharaa is something to be encouraged. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's my point in a way critical:
Why should there be one class in a game that so vastly overpowers all the others that it's a game ender?
If the onos is limited to hive 3, I think we all agree, it's a waste of time and might as well not be there. Being so overly powerful, 3 hives = marines lose. The problem is, if aliens have 3 hives, the marines have pretty much lost anyway. They will have very little territory on the map, hence very little res, and the aliens will have the majority. The onos is pointless.
However, if you nerf the onos at lower levels, and make it available earlier (be that by making it hive 2, or losing the hive restrictions and slowing the res and making it more expensive, or even making it only available from lerk or fade, I'm just throwing ideas in here), but make sure that at 3 hives and full upgrades, it really is still the game ender it looks, that, I feel, is a more comfortable balance.
As someone else pointed out earlier, HA at level 0 with lmg != level 3 HA/HMG. In the same way, onos, hive3 level3 !=onos, hive 1 level0. The point is, we never, ever EVER, get to see onos, hive 1 level 0.
If the difference in strength/stamina/damage of an onos between level 0/hive 1 and level3/hive 3 is increased, ie by nerfing the lower levels (maybe tie in with increased health for more hives idea?), then you will force the team to work together:
I for one wouldn't want to be a lone 1 hive onos with no company. Give me a lerk, gorge and skulk at my side and we've got something going.
I really feel that we need to promote teamplay, and I feel that's the general consensus of the community, however without bringing in some sort of "marine hive" (eg marines need to get to auxiliary command centres in the map in order to research different tech), the sheer imbalance in having one race dependant only on res, and the other dependant also on hives is one that we cannot work with.
Just my 2p <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Roo
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the best thrills of the game is taking down an Onos. If they are just hive 3 evolutions, they will rarely be seen except at end game where taking them down doesn't matter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that is exactly it, its just a LOLOLOL! OMG I KILLED TEH ONOS! LOLOLOL! It is NOTHING special except it just means you've delayed your loss by a little longer.
Again, once you see onos you know the game has ended and its time to pack up and go home.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As someone else pointed out earlier, HA at level 0 with lmg != level 3 HA/HMG. In the same way, onos, hive3 level3 !=onos, hive 1 level0. The point is, we never, ever EVER, get to see onos, hive 1 level 0.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hold up here: When we did they STILL dominated. Again, I pose to you if the onos is NOT a problem in an open hive evolution as is then WHY the complaints about those onos owning up? There isn't a problem if the onos is taken down as easily as some may suggest, but it isn't.
The problem is a HA/HMG lvl 3 can be beaten by a Onos hive 1 level 0 (though for an extra 2 res I'd bet on carapace or regen). A group of them are clearly being beaten by Onos with alien support, or again, the many reports of marine dominance being turned around by a single onos would NOT occur!
We all agree that if the onos is a hive 1 option as is - ie uber powerful, then it wont work.
What we ARE trying to say is we want the onos as a normal part of the game earlier on. And we are prepared to nerf him a little to fit his big fat caracase in.
We want him changed so at hive 1 he is pretty bloody good, but not unstoppable until he has a few upgrades to back him up.
EDIT
lol Aegeri I just realised we are both arguing the same point - sorry <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ehehehehe /racks up one teamkill - aegeri scratches head
Seems like a sensible solution to me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Finally, one last point... If the abillities are stronger, maybe they could cost more? So for an onos, it'd cost more to upgrade (and if you've upgraded before it just gets added on to the onos cost?)
Or is that too complicated? Something so that a cost of 6 + someone else putting up 2 more hives doesn't make the onos unfeasibly great with minimal cost. It should COST to get those abilities!
Ehehehehe /racks up one teamkill - aegeri scratches head <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yah, I want open evolutions, but the onos needs to be changed/removed[IE replaced] before that can happen really.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I wrote this very early in the morning without any sleep, I apologize that it sounds like I am ESL.
Also, Martigen I didn't actually mean that everyone on the team would save for onos (though i think it would work on most deathmatch style pub servers). I meant like 4-5 guys out of an 8 man team. The other noble players would go gorge to either drop hives/RTs/ chambers. Sorry about that confusion, but you get the gist of it.
If all of the alien team goes out and works with the rest of the team, yes they can still save up, however they will inevitably get owned by the marine's quick tech abilities like level one armor/weapons, which I as a comm usually get relatively immediately. The Skulks have to use upgrades and evolves to be able to keep their res towers earlier on in the game, and this kind of ruins the half team onos strategy, because if they do try that, they lose due to res domination, and if they don't, they can't get Onos asap. Either way, half a team going onos isn't viable, even against pub server n00b Marines.
I don't care what you say, it doesn't take a skilled team to dominate skulks saving for Onos with lvl 3 everything and upgraded weapons. If the Khaara do abandon the 5 people going Onos strategy and instead try to compete for resources with smaller evolutions and upgrades, then it becomes even, and by the time they both can get to their highest tech, this is when problems arise. Any Onos going before then is improbable, since it takes 100 res to get to an Onos, and untill then, the Marines are going to be pounding you with moderate to advanced tech upgrades.
So, how do pub n00b Marines counter a pack of Oni even with their highest tech? While Jetpacks and HMGs are not AS viable as before, but Flayra has labeled them as the official Onos counter, has he not? I'm sure a pack of JPs/HMGs that have some idea of what they're doing could take out a pack of Oni or atleast put up a fight. However, I agree, HA/HMGs have no chance. Even with this, however, there is still the problem that Pubbers still usually can't take out Oni. I advocate toning down the Onos a bit, just to the point where it's enough to keep pub mariners in the game, even if it isn't a very good chance.
Another idea has already been suggested, but I am taking it further.
<i>Why not give all evolutions available at hive one, but tie the success of these more to the hives than in 1.1p?</i>
For example, on top of attacks and upgrade chambers, make the Onos's attack damage, health, armor and/or stamina less than it would be with two hives (etc.)? Do it enough that Oni and Fades are still viable, but really need that extra hive or two to be a game ender. This could fix the problem of Hive lockdowns, while still making it impossible for a Hive One Oni pack to completely ravage the Marines and dominate the game. Combine this with a minor Onos tweak, and I believe it would be incredibly balanced.
<i>In either case</i>
As it is, two hive lockdowns are too uncounterable. It's been pointed out fifty times that two hive lockdowns are no fun once they happen, are near impossible to counter in organized clan matches, let alone impossible in pub games.
With <b>so</b> many possible ways to fix the problems with unchained evolution that would be extremely viable, balanced, and easy to do, I fail to see any logical reason to stay with the chained hive evolution format that is in 1.1q/1.0x.
-Masa-
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I remember correctly, it has already been given a chance, and has less appeal to the PTs than 1.1p, even after playing it for a while. Hive lockdowns have already started to happen on Public and Clan games alike, and they have worked. If hive lockdowns are already starting to happen, why is any further speculation needed as to whether they will, when the evidence is already there?
So here's the deal:
<b>#</b> In fighting Onos are a little strong (they could do with a wee little nerf), but not too much. Onos + supporting alien fights are great fun, and depending on tech level of both sides and skill, can go either way. Just as it should be -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>.
<b>#</b> Marines vs a few Onos will more readily get wasted, unless the marines have a lot of tech and also grouped. The type of fight you might see later in the game at a marine base or alien hive if it's been a close fight. Just as it should be -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>.
<b>#</b> Marines vs a hoarde of Onos and other hive 3 aliens = alien win. Just as it should be -- afterall, if this doesn't spell an alien win, then what does? -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>.
Frankly almost everything about how they play, and how frequently they can appear, is just fine.
So what's the problem? Marines cap res faster than aliens. Marines cap a load of res, and start teching. After a while, when the alien team has been building/fighting and expanding, an alien goes Onos. What does he do? Attack the marines? Generally, no -- he will likely die at the marine base (I can't stress enough that Onos are no longer Uber! Marines + good base defence = dead Onos (though again the recent Stomp change has put this off balance)). Anyway, this is what he does:
<b>#</b> Intelligently, he goes around and takes out all the marine res nodes, as structures fall quickly to an Onos and frequently there's nothing to stop him as turrets are so shockingly bad right now. Result: pretty soon the marines have no res nodes, and as their res dries up and the aliens overtake them, they are destined to lose.
Moreover although a group of even LMG marines can down an Onos, by the time marines make it to a node under attack it's already dead and if it isn't, usually the marines can only spare one marine to go check on it, and of course an Onos will win versus one marine (just as it should -- <span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'><b>GOOD</b></span>!)
So, the answer lies in preventing Onos from trashing marine res so efficiently. One solution as we're trying (I presume this is one of Flayra's reasons) is to put the hive limitation back in, but this to me is far too much a tradeoff and dramatically limits gameplay.
What's interesting is that the extra power of electricity in 1.1q might change this for electrified nodes. If the Onos was weakened a little, this plus the 30 damage a second from electicity could well see nodes adequately fending off that rogue Onos, esepcially if it's backed up by another 30 dam electrified TF next to it, at least until help arrives and when it does there'll be a wounded Onos. Alternatively, another solution is to perhaps have electricity negate regeneration in range, since that is a popular choice for Onos going res hunting. Bilebomb can also be an issue here, but as it requires a second hive and phatteh's are both slow and easy to kill, it's adequately balanced.
Regardless, that's all up to Flayra but the problem is <i>not</i> about the pure strength of the Onos. They are frequently downable (prior to 1.1q). This problem lies in marine res nodes being so vulnerable to the hulking beast. Fix this, and then adequately balance the alien res intake, and we're flying <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. It is already <i><b>so</i></b> close to having a great feel and this is, I think, one of the last big obstacles to be balanced.
M
sounds easy! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (not)
Any gorge and alien team that dies cus of a 2 hive lockdown has an unexperienced noob gorge.
when 2 hives are locked you just need +2 gorges AND offensive gorges on frontline!!!
You need defensive more camping and hiding skulks that stay defensive when half team is dead and no stupid suicide rushers.
A wave of 5 skulks and 2 gorges can kill whole 2 hive lockdown bases.
Teamwork and brain using wons.
My set of solutions:
<b>1)</b> Make the onos serve a new purpose. Right now, it's just like a super-fade, which creates this paradigm of waiting to onos. Instead, why not make it serve as a different function?
<b>I suggest the onos be some sort of mobile outpost.</b> Make it really really slow and buff up it's HP and armor. The marines would have a lot of time to take it out before it reaches their bases. To prevent it from being overpowered, the regen evolution upgrade will need to be revised.
Counters to the onos would be anything that's faster than it (light marines, JPers) and anything that can take advantage of its slow speed (GL).
<b>2)</b> I'm seeing alot of these linking health/armor to hives suggestions running amok. Instead of this messy solution, just tweak alien abilities around so that 2nd hive abilities are much more powerful than 1st hive ones, and 3rd hive abilities are much more powerful than 2nd hive ones. This solution would not only balance all 3 teirs, but let the hive still be a viable target.
<b>3)</b> The argument that aliens would avoid middle-class forms (fade, lerk) to morph to onos is valid, despite the fact that fades were underpowered at that version. This is why I suggest the onos have a function that aliens lack.
However, the onos would still be able to annihilate electrified res towers too quickly. The marines can't really do much to stop alien res from flowing other than destroying alien RTs. Even then, a good skulk could suicide a lot and get a lot of kills, even if it gives marines res each time it dies.
This sounds balanced, but I offer a new way to balance it that makes marines and aliens more unique:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maian:
What if killing aliens and alien structures REDUCES ALIEN res instead of INCREASING MARINE res? Killing an alien would reduce res for that alien only. Killing a structure would reduce res for all aliens proportional to the cost of the structure. It's far more intuitive than the current (1.1) kill->res system and still discourages marines from just sitting in their bases twiddling their thumbs.
Killing OCs does not affect alien res, because OCs are meant to be killed So now, aliens, especially gorges, should defend their structures or risk losing res.
An alien stores its res in its body, so when it die, it leaks some res. The rest is absorbed back into the hive via bacterium for another lucky alien to receive (the same player respawning).
As for alien structures causing all aliens to lose res, something along the lines of borrowing res from aliens via bacterium due to panic would do.
If an alien would reach negative res, it should bump back to 0 res. Why? Reason 1: Flayra won't have to worry about making room for a negative sign. Reason 2: Newbies would hate the game (at least on the aliens side).
The amount of res lost shouldn't be huge - unless an alien dies every 15 seconds, that alien should still net positive res over time. You don't want to frustrate newbies too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shameless plug: you can discuss this idea <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=35348' target='_blank'>here</a> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With this, marines now have 2 ways to prevent onos: kill alien RTS and/or kill aliens and alien structures.
Aliens die far more often than marines do, simply a factor of range. It would also discourage aliens from attacking because attacking=potentially lose res=lose game.
No I don't feel its fair for alien.