I didn't read all the posts trough, but please remember that <span style='color:red'><b>HIVE COSTS 30 RP IN 1.1q</b></span>, not 80 RP like in 1.04. That is under half the 1.04 hive cost and with resource for kills being in, 2nd hive should be up very, very fast. In 1.04 it takes too long to get 2nd hive before you have JP/HMGers or high-teched marines setting siege bases.
I also think that there should be a lot more onos, fades, HA/HMGers and other "classes" fighting eachother in the mid game. I don't like the idea of a game-ender onos. It is only a waste of animators/developers time to make a class that is seen for 2 minutes in the very end of the game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Tweak onos' health/armor and make it 2 hives so we see it a lot more often, but it won't cripple marines. Thanks for reading.
Why dont they make the fade a 1 hive alien? that would give the aliens something powerfull they can use to counter turrets, but without the overpowering of having a bunch of onos.
pege. just because the hive costs 30 rsr's doesnt mean it takes less time to assertain. A new rsr system was implamented in this version giving gorgs only 1 share compared to 3, although i would agree it actually does go up faster just because they lowered build time significantly.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Well we haven't tried Onos at two hives yet, so I'm going to wait until after then before I post any exaustive opinions on the matter
[Off-Topic] how did you manage to get the following of worshipers Martigen? I'm clearly the sexier aussie PT <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> . PS. If Martigen isn't going to take up your offer Marine 01, I will happily drive down to liberate you of your beer <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--lagger+Jun 17 2003, 10:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Jun 17 2003, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> pege. just because the hive costs 30 rsr's doesnt mean it takes less time to assertain. A new rsr system was implamented in this version giving gorgs only 1 share compared to 3, although i would agree it actually does go up faster just because they lowered build time significantly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm... I didn't even take into consideration that hive builds up faster, because I wasn't sure. Hive finishing sloooowly in 1.04 is also one of the reasons why aliens don't get it up before JP/HMG or sieges. Besides, I didn't mean there should be a gorge saving for the hive from the start. I've read that the new strategy is to have a good skulk who has lots of kills go temp-gorge and set up the hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree with that idea. It will make it impossible for aliens to get any benefit from the res for kills system.
Aliens die far more often than marines do, simply a factor of range. It would also discourage aliens from attacking because attacking=potentially lose res=lose game.
No I don't feel its fair for alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't lose much res per death. Maybe 1-2 res, more if they were a more expensive form. It's still very easy to take advantage of the kill->res sytem.
Aliens are already discouraged from suiciding with the kill->res system for marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maian+Jun 17 2003, 11:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Jun 17 2003, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree with that idea. It will make it impossible for aliens to get any benefit from the res for kills system.
Aliens die far more often than marines do, simply a factor of range. It would also discourage aliens from attacking because attacking=potentially lose res=lose game.
No I don't feel its fair for alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't lose much res per death. Maybe 1-2 res, more if they were a more expensive form. It's still very easy to take advantage of the kill->res sytem.
Aliens are already discouraged from suiciding with the kill->res system for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But you've just hit my point square on the head! You are penalising aliens *twice* and increasing the res gap. For example, would you agree at every skulk death taking 6 res from the alien? Probably not, but if you consider things you make the game between alien and marine 5-6 res larger with EVERY death.
Not only are you granting marines 1-3 res, but you are stripping the aliens of 1-3 res. Making a res gap that is effectively 6.
If 3 skulks die that is 6-18, 9-24 etc. You're screwing over the alien side allowing the marines to get further and further ahead res wise. NOT A GOOD THING. Eventually the camels back is broken and the marines have teched enough, while the aliens teching has been retarded due to res loss, to make this WORSE. Once HMG or heaven forbid, early shotguns appear, aliens=completely screwed (In fact, I'd be mortally afraid of early shotgun rushes as alien. 1 shotgun blast=dead skulk).
In this case the marines get far too much benefit. It is not just 1-2 res, it is about 5 res in the end considering the DIFFERENCE between the alien and marine res.
The thing is, the solution to hive lockdowns is to have all the aliens available at hive 1. The problem with this is that aliens can then not bother claiming hives (which are only relevant for more abilities or chambers) which you've already mentioned.
The best idea I've heard is to increase other aspects of the aliens such as HP and armour with increasing hives. But again, we end up with the problem of how exactly are tier 3 aliens going to be beaten by marines? I don't think flayra wants the game to end up in a situation where one side is automatically beaten when one set of conditions happens (the problem that was in the beginning of Warcraft 3 for example).
Really, I think the best solution is to have things so that Tier 3 counters tier 3 and to perhaps expand marine guns/tech and alien evolutions so this is possible. This would put emphasis on scouting your opponent and determining what they are doing then teching/evolving to counter that etc.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited June 2003
Blah - At this point (as I've said a few times) I think that the alien units should be unlocked, not because it isn't good for the game (which it is =[ ), but just because nobody seems to understand _why_ its good. You guys do realize that when everything gets unlocked the Onos is probably going to have to be priced around 130-150 resources, because Fade HAS to be 75+ in an unlocked system and there needs to be some reason to go fade. The onos will also probably lose his wrecking-ball status and alot of the fun associated with playing onos, all because people are afraid they might get into a lockdown situation, which is really very easy to stop =[
Just remember this - this is 1.1, not 1.04. Hives are 30 res, not 80. Marines can no longer bunnyhop. Skulks have more base armor. The bite model has been slowed and the alien view has been changed to make skulking considerably easier. Both teams must wait 2 minutes after building each node before that node is activated. Phase gate tech must now be upgraded in the observatory(takes some time and more money). Turrets are worse then they were in 1.04. If you rarely had a problem stopping a lockdown in 1.04, then the marines will have little or no chance to get a hive lockdown off in pub 1.1, they will probably end up struggling for a few nodes =[
Personally I'd like to see Flayra fix the skulk bite problem(right now skulks need 3 bites to kill a no armor marine, 4 bites to kill a marine with 1 armor) and maybe some of the guys who don't really play the game very often but make huge posts about it anyways will give the hive system another chance =[
But seriously - give it a good, long thought before you knock it. There are more than a few posts in this thread by people who dont even seem to understand the basic concepts and problems in 1.04. So just keep in mind before you make any lengthy balance assumptions, 1.1 is COMPLETELY different, and most, if not all of those of us who are _actually_ playing it regularly still dont _really_ understand the game.
The thing with having aliens tied to hives is, IMO it makes the game less interesting by limiting the strategies.
Perhaps if Tier 1 units were drastically improved with new hives it might stop this? So that a 'hive rush' to improve tier 1 units quickly to dominate and overwhelm the marines is possible?
Essentially, anything that increases the strategies that can be used=teh good. I feel that locking evolutions to hives just isn't the best thing.
You are right in needing to make the current onos 130 or whatever in order to see fades. However, this is why I think the onos should NOT be a wreaking ball but a heavy support unit. It should NOT be a game ender, or something that takes 90 marines to take down. It should be another BALANCED part of the game and an OPTION not a "OMG THEY HAVE ONOS, LETS f4 GG ALIENS". When we get to the point where a unit mixture (1 onos, 1 fade, 2 lerks and 2 skulks say) is against 2 shotgun marines, 1 GL, 2 HA/HMG or whatever THEN we have an interesting game. When both sides have a chance of winning (by being clever, strategising, ambushing their opponent etc) then that is a well balanced game.
When 1 unit (The onos) takes too much effort, manpower and res to counter it is NOT a balanced unit!
Really, the untied alien evolutions will work brilliantly, make the game the way most seem to want it if the onos is appropriately balanced.
Yes it will no longer be the game ending wrecking ball, but it SHOULDN'T be to begin with!
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I would also like to unify the upgrade process so that each lifeform is MORE EQUALLY viable despite upgrades/hives. For instance, once people have res to evolve to a higher lifeform, that lifeform is almost always BETTER than any lower lifeform, so you see this homogeniety where the whole team is fades, or the whole team is onos or whatever. What I would like to suggest is that the upgrades for lower lifeforms scale up FASTER than those for higher lifeforms. So come end game, you might actually see fully upgraded skulks or lerks (well, in 1.04 they are because of spores) as viable and equal to a partially upgraded fade or onos.
As it is, skulks are basically entirely disregarded once higher lifeforms are available, and i think it might make for more varied gameplay if lower lifeforms were kept viable longer.
Aegeri: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is, the solution to hive lockdowns is to have all the aliens available at hive 1. The problem with this is that aliens can then not bother claiming hives (which are only relevant for more abilities or chambers) which you've already mentioned. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you kidding? So bile bomb, umbra, acid rocket, charge, primal scream, devour, web etc aren't worth getting? What about having silence <i>and</i> carapace? Or adrenaline <i>and</i> regeneration? Or being able to build silently and cloaked outside their base? Or be able to fire faster and heal while defending a hive? You far, far, far underestimate just how valuable skills and upgrades are. Hive 1 onos = easy prey, hive 3 onos = fear it.
Just as it should be -- <b>GOOD!</b> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hammy: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Blah - At this point (as I've said a few times) I think that the alien units should be unlocked, not because it isn't good for the game (which it is =[ ), but just because nobody seems to understand _why_ its good. You guys do realize that when everything gets unlocked the Onos is probably going to have to be priced around 130-150 resources, because Fade HAS to be 75+ in an unlocked system and there needs to be some reason to go fade. The onos will also probably lose his wrecking-ball status and alot of the fun associated with playing onos <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a little over the top, but even so I'd rather that than the sheer un-funess of being an Onos at hive 3 only when the game is already over, vs poor marines who prove no challenge, where the chances of me dying with all my upgrades and skills are close to nil. Skill factor zero, fun factor zero point one. As for costs, no need for higher prices, it's all balanceable in the res flow for the aliens.
Hammy: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I'd like to see Flayra fix the skulk bite problem(right now skulks need 3 bites to kill a no armor marine, 4 bites to kill a marine with 1 armor) and maybe some of the guys who don't really play the game very often but make huge posts about it anyways will give the hive system another chance =[ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This I totally agree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. I just got out of a game where I scored four bites on a marine trapped against a wall (so I <i>know</i> I hit, even on my ping!) and by the 5th bite he and turned and killed me rather quickly. I might as well as just have walked up, rolled on my belly and said 'here, have some res!'. Very frustrating. So was having 80 res as Gorge later in the same game at one hive after we lost our second hive. I reached the OC limit in a hive (this so needs to be doubled), and so started plowing DCs and MCs down, making use of the res. Didn't stop them GLing it to bits, and I can tell you as a Gorge I didn't last long. Now, had I been able to Fade or Onos, perhaps I could have stopped them, or taken some of them out. Even if I died to the GLs, at least I would have the <b><i>option</i></b> to try this, which is better than no option at all.
Hammy: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So just keep in mind before you make any lengthy balance assumptions, 1.1 is COMPLETELY different, and most, if not all of those of us who are _actually_ playing it regularly still dont _really_ understand the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So true, and well put. I'm still discovering new facets of the game (I <i>love</i> planting MCs and SCs with OCs in key areas, creating sudden attack rapid firing defences that take marines by surprise. This is my new fave Gorge Special Forces (GPS) tactic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
That said, 1.1q just hasn't been as much fun as previous builds so far, but we have another week or so to put it through its paces.
^^ This is what I've been talking about, but I disagree a bit as well. (Note this is to Aaron, damn you Martigen, you win this time!)
I believe that the skulk should be the tier 1 alien unit. Comparable to the footman/ghoul/archer/grunt of Warcraft 3. After tier 2 and 3 marine units turn up (HMG, and HA respectively) the skulk shouldn't really be that effective and moving to tier 2/3 alien units SHOULD be desirable.
This doesn't mean that the skulk should be useless, but it shouldn't be a desireable option against these units. Tier 2 and 3 should be beaten by mixtures of tier 2 and 3. However, while we are moving to tier 2 skulks should still be viable, that I agree with. An entire team of fades should be beaten by LMG marines with shotgun/HMG support. This should be encouraged because a combined arms force should beat a single force of whatever.
Skulks+lerks should annihilate LMG marines with ease. But Shotgun/LMG marines should give skulks+lerks a run for their money.
Fades+lerks+skulks should again decimate only HMG or LMG marines. But a mixture of marine tech should again perhaps be able to beat that (by say, making a solid shell shotgun upgrade that makes shotguns rip through umbra).
Effectively, there should be strat/counter strat and different 'rushes' and counter rushes. This makes the game far more interesting.
For example, some of the best WC3 games I've ever watched have been where both players have scouted eachother and prepares a rush/counter attack to their opponent. For example, one game someone massed gryphon riders and his opponent noticed it and massed AA units. This makes for an interesting game. What if mass fades would get utterly owned by HMG? If the marines noted an all fade alien side they could respond appropriately. If the marines guessed wrong and the fades had lerk support then they would get beaten.
Same for aliens, if aliens noted a marine side rushing HMG they could counter with lerks etc. It makes the game more dynamic and interesting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you kidding? So bile bomb, umbra, acid rocket, charge, primal scream, devour, web etc aren't worth getting? What about having silence and carapace? Or adrenaline and regeneration? Or being able to build silently and cloaked outside their base? Or be able to fire faster and heal while defending a hive? You far, far, far underestimate just how valuable skills and upgrades are. Hive 1 onos = easy prey, hive 3 onos = fear it.
Just as it should be -- GOOD! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hive 1 onos isn't easy prey however :/ That is sort of the point. If a hive 1 onos can win the game as easily as a hive 2 onos, who cares about getting more hives. It only becomes important if more hives are needed to properly counter marine tech=which they aren't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But you've just hit my point square on the head! You are penalising aliens *twice* and increasing the res gap. For example, would you agree at every skulk death taking 6 res from the alien? Probably not, but if you consider things you make the game between alien and marine 5-6 res larger with EVERY death.
Not only are you granting marines 1-3 res, but you are stripping the aliens of 1-3 res. Making a res gap that is effectively 6.
If 3 skulks die that is 6-18, 9-24 etc. You're screwing over the alien side allowing the marines to get further and further ahead res wise. NOT A GOOD THING. Eventually the camels back is broken and the marines have teched enough, while the aliens teching has been retarded due to res loss, to make this WORSE. Once HMG or heaven forbid, early shotguns appear, aliens=completely screwed (In fact, I'd be mortally afraid of early shotgun rushes as alien. 1 shotgun blast=dead skulk).
In this case the marines get far too much benefit. It is not just 1-2 res, it is about 5 res in the end considering the DIFFERENCE between the alien and marine res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aegeri, you misread my idea. I'm suggesting REPLACING the marine gaining res for kills with aliens losing res for deaths.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The trick is finding a balance between the resources and the Hives. It should be an advantage for either team to hold a hive, but it should not be the ultimate advantage. Likewise with resources. It should certainly be an advantage to have many RT's, but not the only thing that counts. Say one team goes for Hives while the other goes for resources, the game should be fairly balanced anyway. Do that and I believe the game will be successful. Don't, and, well, balance changes will just be cosmetics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NoImagination, I agree with this point, but I think 1.1 already has emphasis on both hives and res. Hives are linked to evolution upgrade types and abilities.
I suggested that if the hive needs to be made more important, higher end abilities should be more powerful. There's no need to artificially bump up HP/armor with more hives. In fact, that's a BAD idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are right in needing to make the current onos 130 or whatever in order to see fades. However, this is why I think the onos should NOT be a wreaking ball but a heavy support unit. It should NOT be a game ender, or something that takes 90 marines to take down. It should be another BALANCED part of the game and an OPTION not a "OMG THEY HAVE ONOS, LETS f4 GG ALIENS". When we get to the point where a unit mixture (1 onos, 1 fade, 2 lerks and 2 skulks say) is against 2 shotgun marines, 1 GL, 2 HA/HMG or whatever THEN we have an interesting game. When both sides have a chance of winning (by being clever, strategising, ambushing their opponent etc) then that is a well balanced game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think bumping prices is the correct method. The onos already costs a lot. If you make it cost too much, it would rarely be seen. I'd rather just making the onos less powerful in certain aspect. It should still keep its badass aspect, but it needs a good weakness. I think that making it very slow would make it more unique and could be an effective nerf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I would like to suggest is that the upgrades for lower lifeforms scale up FASTER than those for higher lifeforms. So come end game, you might actually see fully upgraded skulks or lerks (well, in 1.04 they are because of spores) as viable and equal to a partially upgraded fade or onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OR you can make each unit unique. I hate this better unit paradigm. Each unit should serve a purpose, and one unit should not necessarily be better than another unit in all aspects. I've quite happy to see that units are fairly unique in NS. There should be no "super skulk" or "super lerk" alien forms. One is enough, and I don't want to see the onos be a "super fade".
The tech teir system would still work with this. Just make sure that each unit serves a purpose throughout the whole game, unlike the Footman in WC3 Frozen Throne currently.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aegeri, you misread my idea. I'm suggesting REPLACING the marine gaining res for kills with aliens losing res for deaths.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although not as bad, it still retards aliens abilities to evolve or balances it out. Either way, it makes a res for kills system rather pointless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't think bumping prices is the correct method. The onos already costs a lot. If you make it cost too much, it would rarely be seen. I'd rather just making the onos less powerful in certain aspect. It should still keep its badass aspect, but it needs a good weakness. I think that making it very slow would make it more unique and could be an effective nerf<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never said to, I just mentioned that as things are, you will never see fades with an onos like it is unless you make it massively expensive.
Slow=!not a good weakness. It already *IS* slow. Charge makes any sort of speed nerf irrelevant however.
Also I can't see why people think speed is so important, this is a CQ game, encounters are at point blank, giving the onos less speed is about as useful as trying to shoot down aeroplanes with a BB gun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The tech teir system would still work with this. Just make sure that each unit serves a purpose throughout the whole game, unlike the Footman in WC3 Frozen Throne currently. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tier 1 units generally are useless late game, because they don't make effective enough meat sheilds against high level heros, tier 2 melee. I agree with this because tier 1 units should NOT counter tier 2/3 units or upgraded tier 1 units (Undead ghouls or Orc grunts for example). There is a reason why night elves and humans both have new decent tier 3 melee/air units.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Although not as bad, it still retards aliens abilities to evolve or balances it out. Either way, it makes a res for kills system rather pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's still better than the current marine res for kills system. I'd prefer if that system got removed completely, but oh well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Never said to, I just mentioned that as things are, you will never see fades with an onos like it is unless you make it massively expensive.
Slow=!not a good weakness. It already *IS* slow. Charge makes any sort of speed nerf irrelevant however.
Also I can't see why people think speed is so important, this is a CQ game, encounters are at point blank, giving the onos less speed is about as useful as trying to shoot down aeroplanes with a BB gun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you expect those marines to just stand there? Or that they can't hear an onos coming? Or that they're blind? Or numb with fear? Really, marines can just keep their distance - go around corners, back off, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tier 1 units generally are useless late game, because they don't make effective enough meat sheilds against high level heros, tier 2 melee. I agree with this because tier 1 units should NOT counter tier 2/3 units or upgraded tier 1 units (Undead ghouls or Orc grunts for example). There is a reason why night elves and humans both have new decent tier 3 melee/air units.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some tier 1 units should counter some tier 2/3. For ex, archers counter wyverns very well. Or sorcs (even at tier 2) counter teir 3 melee well. Someone said that a good counter system involved some slightly lower tech countering some slightly higher tech units. The higher tier would be overall more powerful but would have counters that are not necessarily of the same tier.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's still better than the current marine res for kills system. I'd prefer if that system got removed completely, but oh well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree :/ I think a res for kills system just isn't a good idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you expect those marines to just stand there? Or that they can't hear an onos coming? Or that they're blind? Or numb with fear? Really, marines can just keep their distance - go around corners, back off, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that the onos will have friends around and again, it is in a CONFINED space. Where are these marines running too? There aren't many football fields around in NS to the best of my knowledge. What are they doing while running away? Shooting at the onos or getting the **** kicked out of them by the lerks and skulks that are around? They either die to the onos as they eventually run out of running room, are massacred by charge (which again, with adrenaline makes a speed nerf utterly useless, which isn't QUITE getting through I feel) or butchered or better yet, BLOCKED by skulks for the onos to murder.
Speed is NOT relevant in a close quarters game, I cannot stress this enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some tier 1 units should counter some tier 2/3. For ex, archers counter wyverns very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No actually, a recent top replay at www.replayers.com showed wyverns owning archers with the right heros (I was surprised at this). In fact, I'm convinced that wyverns own in general!
No, they don't. If you have a good meat sheild they do because their slow allows for your heros/melee to massacre them. However, some wands of negation and HH/Riflemen/crypt fiends/archers and your sorcerers are owned (tier 1/2). If you have knights+sorceress that would be interesting (Knights are a pretty good meat sheild IMO).
However if your opponent comes up with gryphons, wyverns etc then you're about to get smashed.
Actually, I love Warcraft 3 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone said that a good counter system involved some slightly lower tech countering some slightly higher tech units.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've said this! I've said in this thread numerous times that tier 1/2 should beat tier 1/2, and that tier 3 should be unbeatable by tier 1 but still counterable by tier 2 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The higher tier would be overall more powerful but would have counters that are not necessarily of the same tier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going to argue about WC3 stuff since that's off topic. I will say that archers are cost effective vs. wyverns, massing sorcs will obviously not work against tier 3 melee (you need something else).
Well I'm glad we agree on that counter theory <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, having heard how good various aspects of 1.1p and 1.1q are, I'm expecting an absolutely kick-behind 1.1 release, and I'm sure any reservations I've got will have been addressed anyways <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Roll on 1.1 and roll on a new server for Roob's *No time for Muppets* <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Maian+Jun 17 2003, 03:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Jun 17 2003, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not going to argue about WC3 stuff since that's off topic. I will say that archers are cost effective vs. wyverns, massing sorcs will obviously not work against tier 3 melee (you need something else).
Well I'm glad we agree on that counter theory <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but the orc heros tear apart archers faster than you can spit. If you mass archers vs mass wyverns, the archers will die 2x as fast to the orc heros, oh blah.
And incidently, massing sorcs WILL work on massed tier 3 melee. I forgot to mention just polymorphing the whole damn lot of them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> If you kill their heros fast enough=you win!
I was still talking about teir 2 sorcs which only have slow. And yes, I've seen how fast archers can get massacred. They're even more vulnerable in the Frozen Throne. Blizzard+flamestrike pwnz <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Maian+Jun 17 2003, 03:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Jun 17 2003, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was still talking about teir 2 sorcs which only have slow. And yes, I've seen how fast archers can get massacred. They're even more vulnerable in the Frozen Throne. Blizzard+flamestrike pwnz <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Mass casters actually get owned completely now. I've only seen a few games where mass caster will actually work and work well. For the most part piercing armies (archers, HH etc) will annihilate them.
The disturbing thing I've noticed is the increase in large massed crypt fiend armies <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
WC3 is one of the worst RTS's of all time, it shouldn't even be considered an RTS, its simply terrible. I'm not going to read the posts in question but I can't see any way that opinions on a game as fundamentally flawed as WC3 could factor into this discussion =[
<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBOWN+Jun 17 2003, 03:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBOWN @ Jun 17 2003, 03:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WC3 is one of the worst RTS's of all time, it shouldn't even be considered an RTS, its simply terrible. I'm not going to read the posts in question but I can't see any way that opinions on a game as fundamentally flawed as WC3 could factor into this discussion =[ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone got owned by an orc tower rush <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, it has been massively improved since it first came out, I originally disliked it immensely. But they have fixed a ton of the original problems that I had with it and I really enjoy it now.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Jun 17 2003, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 17 2003, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, it has been massively improved since it first came out, I originally disliked it immensely. But they have fixed a ton of the original problems that I had with it and I really enjoy it now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I played in the first beta on battle.net(not warforge) - and it sucked. I played after a few patches, still sucked. I played in the TFT beta when it first came out(on bnet, not warforge) - it sucked even more. I played on the TFT beta after a few patches - sucked slightly less but still sucked. They can make it balanced, but without removing the enourmous fundamental flaws in gameplay it will never be worth playing =[
<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBOWN+Jun 17 2003, 03:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBOWN @ Jun 17 2003, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Jun 17 2003, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 17 2003, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, it has been massively improved since it first came out, I originally disliked it immensely. But they have fixed a ton of the original problems that I had with it and I really enjoy it now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I played in the first beta on battle.net(not warforge) - and it sucked. I played after a few patches, still sucked. I played in the TFT beta when it first came out(on bnet, not warforge) - it sucked even more. I played on the TFT beta after a few patches - sucked slightly less but still sucked. They can make it balanced, but without removing the enourmous fundamental flaws in gameplay it will never be worth playing =[ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh, I dunno to each his own I guess. I don't really like the hero dependance but in the end I don't mind either.
I still think starcraft owns all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Haha love the way topics shift <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WC3 is one of the worst RTS's of all time, it shouldn't even be considered an RTS, its simply terrible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With you there Hambrown!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> QUOTE (Aegeri @ Jun 17 2003, 03:58 PM) I still think starcraft owns all
noone can dispute that :o <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I can <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Total Annihilation > *. Some of the best ideas you see in RTSes today (everything from true LOS to building and movement queues) came from TA. When Starcraft had 16 points of rotation on a sprite, TA was rendering units in 360 degree arcs, and had them rocking as they climbed over terrain, or recolied from a shot. It was also the first RTS to introduce high powered weapons that actually cost something (the Big Bertha took around 10 minutes real game time to build and used 1000 energy per bullet, requring a nuclear power plant to feed it -- buy boy could this thing tear apart bases!) It's still the only RTS I'm aware of today that leaves wreckage from units on the map, which can actually be used for resources or left as a barrier to slow the next assault down.
I still have it, and still play it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think I got my head hit badly or something but I sold TA :/
It is a brilliant game however, ahhh how I want some of these old games back so much <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
I also think that there should be a lot more onos, fades, HA/HMGers and other "classes" fighting eachother in the mid game. I don't like the idea of a game-ender onos. It is only a waste of animators/developers time to make a class that is seen for 2 minutes in the very end of the game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Tweak onos' health/armor and make it 2 hives so we see it a lot more often, but it won't cripple marines. Thanks for reading.
[Off-Topic] how did you manage to get the following of worshipers Martigen? I'm clearly the sexier aussie PT <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> .
PS. If Martigen isn't going to take up your offer Marine 01, I will happily drive down to liberate you of your beer <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Umm... I didn't even take into consideration that hive builds up faster, because I wasn't sure. Hive finishing sloooowly in 1.04 is also one of the reasons why aliens don't get it up before JP/HMG or sieges. Besides, I didn't mean there should be a gorge saving for the hive from the start. I've read that the new strategy is to have a good skulk who has lots of kills go temp-gorge and set up the hive.
Aliens die far more often than marines do, simply a factor of range. It would also discourage aliens from attacking because attacking=potentially lose res=lose game.
No I don't feel its fair for alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't lose much res per death. Maybe 1-2 res, more if they were a more expensive form. It's still very easy to take advantage of the kill->res sytem.
Aliens are already discouraged from suiciding with the kill->res system for marines.
Aliens die far more often than marines do, simply a factor of range. It would also discourage aliens from attacking because attacking=potentially lose res=lose game.
No I don't feel its fair for alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They won't lose much res per death. Maybe 1-2 res, more if they were a more expensive form. It's still very easy to take advantage of the kill->res sytem.
Aliens are already discouraged from suiciding with the kill->res system for marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you've just hit my point square on the head! You are penalising aliens *twice* and increasing the res gap. For example, would you agree at every skulk death taking 6 res from the alien? Probably not, but if you consider things you make the game between alien and marine 5-6 res larger with EVERY death.
Not only are you granting marines 1-3 res, but you are stripping the aliens of 1-3 res. Making a res gap that is effectively 6.
If 3 skulks die that is 6-18, 9-24 etc. You're screwing over the alien side allowing the marines to get further and further ahead res wise. NOT A GOOD THING. Eventually the camels back is broken and the marines have teched enough, while the aliens teching has been retarded due to res loss, to make this WORSE. Once HMG or heaven forbid, early shotguns appear, aliens=completely screwed (In fact, I'd be mortally afraid of early shotgun rushes as alien. 1 shotgun blast=dead skulk).
In this case the marines get far too much benefit. It is not just 1-2 res, it is about 5 res in the end considering the DIFFERENCE between the alien and marine res.
The best idea I've heard is to increase other aspects of the aliens such as HP and armour with increasing hives. But again, we end up with the problem of how exactly are tier 3 aliens going to be beaten by marines? I don't think flayra wants the game to end up in a situation where one side is automatically beaten when one set of conditions happens (the problem that was in the beginning of Warcraft 3 for example).
Really, I think the best solution is to have things so that Tier 3 counters tier 3 and to perhaps expand marine guns/tech and alien evolutions so this is possible. This would put emphasis on scouting your opponent and determining what they are doing then teching/evolving to counter that etc.
Just remember this - this is 1.1, not 1.04. Hives are 30 res, not 80. Marines can no longer bunnyhop. Skulks have more base armor. The bite model has been slowed and the alien view has been changed to make skulking considerably easier. Both teams must wait 2 minutes after building each node before that node is activated. Phase gate tech must now be upgraded in the observatory(takes some time and more money). Turrets are worse then they were in 1.04. If you rarely had a problem stopping a lockdown in 1.04, then the marines will have little or no chance to get a hive lockdown off in pub 1.1, they will probably end up struggling for a few nodes =[
Personally I'd like to see Flayra fix the skulk bite problem(right now skulks need 3 bites to kill a no armor marine, 4 bites to kill a marine with 1 armor) and maybe some of the guys who don't really play the game very often but make huge posts about it anyways will give the hive system another chance =[
But seriously - give it a good, long thought before you knock it. There are more than a few posts in this thread by people who dont even seem to understand the basic concepts and problems in 1.04. So just keep in mind before you make any lengthy balance assumptions, 1.1 is COMPLETELY different, and most, if not all of those of us who are _actually_ playing it regularly still dont _really_ understand the game.
Perhaps if Tier 1 units were drastically improved with new hives it might stop this? So that a 'hive rush' to improve tier 1 units quickly to dominate and overwhelm the marines is possible?
Essentially, anything that increases the strategies that can be used=teh good. I feel that locking evolutions to hives just isn't the best thing.
You are right in needing to make the current onos 130 or whatever in order to see fades. However, this is why I think the onos should NOT be a wreaking ball but a heavy support unit. It should NOT be a game ender, or something that takes 90 marines to take down. It should be another BALANCED part of the game and an OPTION not a "OMG THEY HAVE ONOS, LETS f4 GG ALIENS". When we get to the point where a unit mixture (1 onos, 1 fade, 2 lerks and 2 skulks say) is against 2 shotgun marines, 1 GL, 2 HA/HMG or whatever THEN we have an interesting game. When both sides have a chance of winning (by being clever, strategising, ambushing their opponent etc) then that is a well balanced game.
When 1 unit (The onos) takes too much effort, manpower and res to counter it is NOT a balanced unit!
Really, the untied alien evolutions will work brilliantly, make the game the way most seem to want it if the onos is appropriately balanced.
Yes it will no longer be the game ending wrecking ball, but it SHOULDN'T be to begin with!
As it is, skulks are basically entirely disregarded once higher lifeforms are available, and i think it might make for more varied gameplay if lower lifeforms were kept viable longer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The thing is, the solution to hive lockdowns is to have all the aliens available at hive 1. The problem with this is that aliens can then not bother claiming hives (which are only relevant for more abilities or chambers) which you've already mentioned.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you kidding? So bile bomb, umbra, acid rocket, charge, primal scream, devour, web etc aren't worth getting? What about having silence <i>and</i> carapace? Or adrenaline <i>and</i> regeneration? Or being able to build silently and cloaked outside their base? Or be able to fire faster and heal while defending a hive? You far, far, far underestimate just how valuable skills and upgrades are. Hive 1 onos = easy prey, hive 3 onos = fear it.
Just as it should be -- <b>GOOD!</b> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hammy:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Blah - At this point (as I've said a few times) I think that the alien units should be unlocked, not because it isn't good for the game (which it is =[ ), but just because nobody seems to understand _why_ its good. You guys do realize that when everything gets unlocked the Onos is probably going to have to be priced around 130-150 resources, because Fade HAS to be 75+ in an unlocked system and there needs to be some reason to go fade. The onos will also probably lose his wrecking-ball status and alot of the fun associated with playing onos
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a little over the top, but even so I'd rather that than the sheer un-funess of being an Onos at hive 3 only when the game is already over, vs poor marines who prove no challenge, where the chances of me dying with all my upgrades and skills are close to nil. Skill factor zero, fun factor zero point one. As for costs, no need for higher prices, it's all balanceable in the res flow for the aliens.
Hammy:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Personally I'd like to see Flayra fix the skulk bite problem(right now skulks need 3 bites to kill a no armor marine, 4 bites to kill a marine with 1 armor) and maybe some of the guys who don't really play the game very often but make huge posts about it anyways will give the hive system another chance =[
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I totally agree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. I just got out of a game where I scored four bites on a marine trapped against a wall (so I <i>know</i> I hit, even on my ping!) and by the 5th bite he and turned and killed me rather quickly. I might as well as just have walked up, rolled on my belly and said 'here, have some res!'. Very frustrating. So was having 80 res as Gorge later in the same game at one hive after we lost our second hive. I reached the OC limit in a hive (this so needs to be doubled), and so started plowing DCs and MCs down, making use of the res. Didn't stop them GLing it to bits, and I can tell you as a Gorge I didn't last long. Now, had I been able to Fade or Onos, perhaps I could have stopped them, or taken some of them out. Even if I died to the GLs, at least I would have the <b><i>option</i></b> to try this, which is better than no option at all.
Hammy:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
So just keep in mind before you make any lengthy balance assumptions, 1.1 is COMPLETELY different, and most, if not all of those of us who are _actually_ playing it regularly still dont _really_ understand the game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So true, and well put. I'm still discovering new facets of the game (I <i>love</i> planting MCs and SCs with OCs in key areas, creating sudden attack rapid firing defences that take marines by surprise. This is my new fave Gorge Special Forces (GPS) tactic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
That said, 1.1q just hasn't been as much fun as previous builds so far, but we have another week or so to put it through its paces.
M
I believe that the skulk should be the tier 1 alien unit. Comparable to the footman/ghoul/archer/grunt of Warcraft 3. After tier 2 and 3 marine units turn up (HMG, and HA respectively) the skulk shouldn't really be that effective and moving to tier 2/3 alien units SHOULD be desirable.
This doesn't mean that the skulk should be useless, but it shouldn't be a desireable option against these units. Tier 2 and 3 should be beaten by mixtures of tier 2 and 3. However, while we are moving to tier 2 skulks should still be viable, that I agree with. An entire team of fades should be beaten by LMG marines with shotgun/HMG support. This should be encouraged because a combined arms force should beat a single force of whatever.
Skulks+lerks should annihilate LMG marines with ease. But Shotgun/LMG marines should give skulks+lerks a run for their money.
Fades+lerks+skulks should again decimate only HMG or LMG marines. But a mixture of marine tech should again perhaps be able to beat that (by say, making a solid shell shotgun upgrade that makes shotguns rip through umbra).
Effectively, there should be strat/counter strat and different 'rushes' and counter rushes. This makes the game far more interesting.
For example, some of the best WC3 games I've ever watched have been where both players have scouted eachother and prepares a rush/counter attack to their opponent. For example, one game someone massed gryphon riders and his opponent noticed it and massed AA units. This makes for an interesting game. What if mass fades would get utterly owned by HMG? If the marines noted an all fade alien side they could respond appropriately. If the marines guessed wrong and the fades had lerk support then they would get beaten.
Same for aliens, if aliens noted a marine side rushing HMG they could counter with lerks etc. It makes the game more dynamic and interesting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you kidding? So bile bomb, umbra, acid rocket, charge, primal scream, devour, web etc aren't worth getting? What about having silence and carapace? Or adrenaline and regeneration? Or being able to build silently and cloaked outside their base? Or be able to fire faster and heal while defending a hive? You far, far, far underestimate just how valuable skills and upgrades are. Hive 1 onos = easy prey, hive 3 onos = fear it.
Just as it should be -- GOOD! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hive 1 onos isn't easy prey however :/ That is sort of the point. If a hive 1 onos can win the game as easily as a hive 2 onos, who cares about getting more hives. It only becomes important if more hives are needed to properly counter marine tech=which they aren't.
Not only are you granting marines 1-3 res, but you are stripping the aliens of 1-3 res. Making a res gap that is effectively 6.
If 3 skulks die that is 6-18, 9-24 etc. You're screwing over the alien side allowing the marines to get further and further ahead res wise. NOT A GOOD THING. Eventually the camels back is broken and the marines have teched enough, while the aliens teching has been retarded due to res loss, to make this WORSE. Once HMG or heaven forbid, early shotguns appear, aliens=completely screwed (In fact, I'd be mortally afraid of early shotgun rushes as alien. 1 shotgun blast=dead skulk).
In this case the marines get far too much benefit. It is not just 1-2 res, it is about 5 res in the end considering the DIFFERENCE between the alien and marine res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aegeri, you misread my idea. I'm suggesting REPLACING the marine gaining res for kills with aliens losing res for deaths.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The trick is finding a balance between the resources and the Hives. It should be an advantage for either team to hold a hive, but it should not be the ultimate advantage. Likewise with resources. It should certainly be an advantage to have many RT's, but not the only thing that counts. Say one team goes for Hives while the other goes for resources, the game should be fairly balanced anyway. Do that and I believe the game will be successful. Don't, and, well, balance changes will just be cosmetics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NoImagination, I agree with this point, but I think 1.1 already has emphasis on both hives and res. Hives are linked to evolution upgrade types and abilities.
I suggested that if the hive needs to be made more important, higher end abilities should be more powerful. There's no need to artificially bump up HP/armor with more hives. In fact, that's a BAD idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are right in needing to make the current onos 130 or whatever in order to see fades. However, this is why I think the onos should NOT be a wreaking ball but a heavy support unit. It should NOT be a game ender, or something that takes 90 marines to take down. It should be another BALANCED part of the game and an OPTION not a "OMG THEY HAVE ONOS, LETS f4 GG ALIENS". When we get to the point where a unit mixture (1 onos, 1 fade, 2 lerks and 2 skulks say) is against 2 shotgun marines, 1 GL, 2 HA/HMG or whatever THEN we have an interesting game. When both sides have a chance of winning (by being clever, strategising, ambushing their opponent etc) then that is a well balanced game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think bumping prices is the correct method. The onos already costs a lot. If you make it cost too much, it would rarely be seen. I'd rather just making the onos less powerful in certain aspect. It should still keep its badass aspect, but it needs a good weakness. I think that making it very slow would make it more unique and could be an effective nerf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I would like to suggest is that the upgrades for lower lifeforms scale up FASTER than those for higher lifeforms. So come end game, you might actually see fully upgraded skulks or lerks (well, in 1.04 they are because of spores) as viable and equal to a partially upgraded fade or onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OR you can make each unit unique. I hate this better unit paradigm. Each unit should serve a purpose, and one unit should not necessarily be better than another unit in all aspects. I've quite happy to see that units are fairly unique in NS. There should be no "super skulk" or "super lerk" alien forms. One is enough, and I don't want to see the onos be a "super fade".
The tech teir system would still work with this. Just make sure that each unit serves a purpose throughout the whole game, unlike the Footman in WC3 Frozen Throne currently.
Although not as bad, it still retards aliens abilities to evolve or balances it out. Either way, it makes a res for kills system rather pointless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't think bumping prices is the correct method. The onos already costs a lot. If you make it cost too much, it would rarely be seen. I'd rather just making the onos less powerful in certain aspect. It should still keep its badass aspect, but it needs a good weakness. I think that making it very slow would make it more unique and could be an effective nerf<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never said to, I just mentioned that as things are, you will never see fades with an onos like it is unless you make it massively expensive.
Slow=!not a good weakness. It already *IS* slow. Charge makes any sort of speed nerf irrelevant however.
Also I can't see why people think speed is so important, this is a CQ game, encounters are at point blank, giving the onos less speed is about as useful as trying to shoot down aeroplanes with a BB gun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The tech teir system would still work with this. Just make sure that each unit serves a purpose throughout the whole game, unlike the Footman in WC3 Frozen Throne currently. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tier 1 units generally are useless late game, because they don't make effective enough meat sheilds against high level heros, tier 2 melee. I agree with this because tier 1 units should NOT counter tier 2/3 units or upgraded tier 1 units (Undead ghouls or Orc grunts for example). There is a reason why night elves and humans both have new decent tier 3 melee/air units.
It's still better than the current marine res for kills system. I'd prefer if that system got removed completely, but oh well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Never said to, I just mentioned that as things are, you will never see fades with an onos like it is unless you make it massively expensive.
Slow=!not a good weakness. It already *IS* slow. Charge makes any sort of speed nerf irrelevant however.
Also I can't see why people think speed is so important, this is a CQ game, encounters are at point blank, giving the onos less speed is about as useful as trying to shoot down aeroplanes with a BB gun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you expect those marines to just stand there? Or that they can't hear an onos coming? Or that they're blind? Or numb with fear? Really, marines can just keep their distance - go around corners, back off, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tier 1 units generally are useless late game, because they don't make effective enough meat sheilds against high level heros, tier 2 melee. I agree with this because tier 1 units should NOT counter tier 2/3 units or upgraded tier 1 units (Undead ghouls or Orc grunts for example). There is a reason why night elves and humans both have new decent tier 3 melee/air units.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some tier 1 units should counter some tier 2/3. For ex, archers counter wyverns very well. Or sorcs (even at tier 2) counter teir 3 melee well. Someone said that a good counter system involved some slightly lower tech countering some slightly higher tech units. The higher tier would be overall more powerful but would have counters that are not necessarily of the same tier.
I agree :/ I think a res for kills system just isn't a good idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you expect those marines to just stand there? Or that they can't hear an onos coming? Or that they're blind? Or numb with fear? Really, marines can just keep their distance - go around corners, back off, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that the onos will have friends around and again, it is in a CONFINED space. Where are these marines running too? There aren't many football fields around in NS to the best of my knowledge. What are they doing while running away? Shooting at the onos or getting the **** kicked out of them by the lerks and skulks that are around? They either die to the onos as they eventually run out of running room, are massacred by charge (which again, with adrenaline makes a speed nerf utterly useless, which isn't QUITE getting through I feel) or butchered or better yet, BLOCKED by skulks for the onos to murder.
Speed is NOT relevant in a close quarters game, I cannot stress this enough.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some tier 1 units should counter some tier 2/3. For ex, archers counter wyverns very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No actually, a recent top replay at www.replayers.com showed wyverns owning archers with the right heros (I was surprised at this). In fact, I'm convinced that wyverns own in general!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or sorcs (even at tier 2) counter teir 3 melee well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they don't. If you have a good meat sheild they do because their slow allows for your heros/melee to massacre them. However, some wands of negation and HH/Riflemen/crypt fiends/archers and your sorcerers are owned (tier 1/2). If you have knights+sorceress that would be interesting (Knights are a pretty good meat sheild IMO).
However if your opponent comes up with gryphons, wyverns etc then you're about to get smashed.
Actually, I love Warcraft 3 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Someone said that a good counter system involved some slightly lower tech countering some slightly higher tech units.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've said this! I've said in this thread numerous times that tier 1/2 should beat tier 1/2, and that tier 3 should be unbeatable by tier 1 but still counterable by tier 2 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The higher tier would be overall more powerful but would have counters that are not necessarily of the same tier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well I'm glad we agree on that counter theory <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Roll on 1.1 and roll on a new server for Roob's *No time for Muppets* <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well I'm glad we agree on that counter theory <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the orc heros tear apart archers faster than you can spit. If you mass archers vs mass wyverns, the archers will die 2x as fast to the orc heros, oh blah.
Just watch this replay:
<a href='http://www.replayers.com/?action=view&id=35758' target='_blank'>http://www.replayers.com/?action=view&id=35758</a>
And incidently, massing sorcs WILL work on massed tier 3 melee. I forgot to mention just polymorphing the whole damn lot of them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> If you kill their heros fast enough=you win!
Mass casters actually get owned completely now. I've only seen a few games where mass caster will actually work and work well. For the most part piercing armies (archers, HH etc) will annihilate them.
The disturbing thing I've noticed is the increase in large massed crypt fiend armies <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Someone got owned by an orc tower rush <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, it has been massively improved since it first came out, I originally disliked it immensely. But they have fixed a ton of the original problems that I had with it and I really enjoy it now.
I played in the first beta on battle.net(not warforge) - and it sucked. I played after a few patches, still sucked. I played in the TFT beta when it first came out(on bnet, not warforge) - it sucked even more. I played on the TFT beta after a few patches - sucked slightly less but still sucked. They can make it balanced, but without removing the enourmous fundamental flaws in gameplay it will never be worth playing =[
I played in the first beta on battle.net(not warforge) - and it sucked. I played after a few patches, still sucked. I played in the TFT beta when it first came out(on bnet, not warforge) - it sucked even more. I played on the TFT beta after a few patches - sucked slightly less but still sucked. They can make it balanced, but without removing the enourmous fundamental flaws in gameplay it will never be worth playing =[ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh, I dunno to each his own I guess. I don't really like the hero dependance but in the end I don't mind either.
I still think starcraft owns all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
noone can dispute that :o
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
WC3 is one of the worst RTS's of all time, it shouldn't even be considered an RTS, its simply terrible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With you there Hambrown!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (Aegeri @ Jun 17 2003, 03:58 PM)
I still think starcraft owns all
noone can dispute that :o
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I can <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Total Annihilation > *. Some of the best ideas you see in RTSes today (everything from true LOS to building and movement queues) came from TA. When Starcraft had 16 points of rotation on a sprite, TA was rendering units in 360 degree arcs, and had them rocking as they climbed over terrain, or recolied from a shot. It was also the first RTS to introduce high powered weapons that actually cost something (the Big Bertha took around 10 minutes real game time to build and used 1000 energy per bullet, requring a nuclear power plant to feed it -- buy boy could this thing tear apart bases!) It's still the only RTS I'm aware of today that leaves wreckage from units on the map, which can actually be used for resources or left as a barrier to slow the next assault down.
I still have it, and still play it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
M
It is a brilliant game however, ahhh how I want some of these old games back so much <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->