How To Make Sensory Viable First

SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
edited June 2003 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">(or an idea that probably wouldnt work)</div> After reading <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=34707' target='_blank'>here</a> that sensory chambers are <i>still</i> not viable first, after all the excellent ideas and testing that has gone on over the months, i have come up with an idea to make them much more appealing.

It seems continous scanner sweeps render sensory chambers useless at the moment, and I assume they can give the location of cloaked hives.
following on from archhaven's idea of only aliens being un-cloaked to scanner sweeps, what if cloaked structures were immune to them? (including hives)

Scanner sweeps would then reveal aliens and un-cloaked structures, but would not reveal cloaked buildings. This would be appealing to aliens, as getting sensory first would stop the commander figuring out which hive they have in the first 2 minutes of the game. This would certainly slow down rushes which can end the game before its even begun, as marines wouldn't know what hive to rush first.

At the moment, the hive plays a sound which can be heard by the commander, and can give the location away, this should be removed if this idea is to go in, as it would give the game away.

Your thoughts? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

Comments

  • imsuxokimsuxok Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10441Members
    I have a similar, although expanded idea.

    <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=34748' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=34748</a>
  • Frogg2Frogg2 Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4867Members, Constellation
    You can still hear the hives RT, and there aren't many marine rushes in 1.1 usually it's suicide.
  • Lionhearted_BLionhearted_B Join Date: 2003-05-18 Member: 16432Members, Constellation
    Would it be possible to add the old enhanced sight ability to Scent of Fear? In dark places the highlighted marines/marine structures was extremely useful (for me at least) and I'd hate to see it removed permanently. It also looked kinda cool <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    When the marines build on top of powersilo it is pretty hard to spot until it's too late <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Frogg2+Jun 11 2003, 09:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frogg2 @ Jun 11 2003, 09:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can still hear the hives RT, and there aren't many marine rushes in 1.1 usually it's suicide. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Won't this limit the stragetic options for marines?
  • GolathGolath Join Date: 2003-05-20 Member: 16532Members
    edited June 2003
    The way i see it is balancing is a scale, def and movement and pretty much everything else in the game is weighed in grams, now the sensory is weighed in tons. everytime you try and change the sensory it either makes another completly useless option, Or makes it the only viable 1st hive chamber. Sensory will need to have a MAJOR overhaul to make it back in the game. Right now its more like a tagalong fun thing. If sensory counters sweep then sweep counters nothing thus making a cloaked alien or hive or WOL undetectable. If this happens then the aliens will most likely use sensory over dc or mc because cloak also is the counter to MT (its in one of the changelogs i think). But it sweep counters cloaking then that renders cloaking complety useless the second they realise that their cloaking. I say change the way sensory helps buildings and players. Instead of cloaking them why not effect the enemys sensors, seeing how its a sensory chamber. eg commander cannot pick up anything near a sensory. he can see his marines but not place medis or tf or what ever. This seems like a pretty good idea. Helps wol but is not SUPER UBER overbalanced when there is no scanning and completly utterly useless when there is. But as i stated before i dont think there is an easy way to balance the sensory
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    You know why sensory is worthless?


    Because the advantages it gives you are identical to that of other chambers, yet in weaker form.


    Advanced hive sight? Or proper teamwork and scouting?

    Cloaking? Or carefully planned ambushes, or just get bigger and badder lifeforms?


    Seriously, what the heck is it's <b>advantage?</b>

    It's seems so weak and difficult to use...
  • nojmasternojmaster Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17027Members
    Yea but the ability of a sens tower to cloak anything near it isnt, imagine one behind a WoL <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Only thing is, if you make it so sweeps dont decect cloaked buildings, its possible that there would be no way at all to use a seige cannon, because without finding the invisible SC and destroying it with guns, theres no way to target the seige.
  • MacguyvokMacguyvok Godlike Fuzzydice Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16162Members
    Well, what if the seige firted if any marines had LoS with it. (Think Ghosts in SC)
  • JamlJaml Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9054Members
    Sensory chambers need an upgrade that helps you on offence to make them usefull. You can add as many features to it as you want in the end the game is to be played offensively and cloaking wont help you when you rush an outpost while carpace and celerity/adrenaline does. My suggestion would be to remove pheromones and instead put in an upgrade that jams the sensory equippment of marine automated defenses as follow:

    1.) Turrets have a harder time to hit aliens with the jam upgrade. Something about 50% less hits.
    2.) Mines dont trigger if an alien with the jam upgrade runs over them. Or have a fixed % chance to set one off for example if an alien runs ofer a mine theres a 20% chance the mine detects him and blows (like russian roulette <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
    3.) The upgrade jams the detection system of electrified structures allowing the aliens to chew them without taking damage

    This upgrade fits the sensory chanmber, would be usefull on offense and compensate for the lack of armor or adrenaline/speed the aliens have if they choose sensory over the other chambers. And it would require different tactics for the marines if sensory is build cause its a counter to the usual tactics to just mine spam or electrify the nodes forcing them to defend more but having the advantage to kill the aliens easier.
  • cybranglcybrangl Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11605Members
    Well, one fix for this is to only cloak certain things. For example, aliens still remianed cloaked (and unseen my MT) in teh area of the chamber, as do the hives, but structures are not cloaked. Add the fact that a sesonory prevents a siege from targeting structures within the range and you have some nice use out of it without over-powering it. Marines can still manually take out WOLs, but the siege is negated. The main purpose would be to siege protect key areas and to provide stealth for aliens.

    Some sneaky scenerios I envision would be:

    1) Cloak first hive and build chambers with sensory in second hive location early on. This would lead the marines to think the hive is in second location, but cloaked.

    2) Create "train" of senosries to provided cloaked route to key locations.

    3) Anti-siege choke-hold points

    4) Create "holes" in marine vision where ambushes can be used.

    5) It would give more incentive fo Gorges to cap a res node since marines can now easily see if the node is capped or not. Uncapped nodes would be fair game for spray and pray to decloak sucking gorges. Now gorges need to be team players again.

    6) Marines can still nade/HMG a WOL to death, but not seige them from a safe distance.

    7) Use you rimagination <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • napinapi Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14172Members, Constellation
    edited June 2003
    heh. i hate to be a sily person who brings this up, but doesn't this kinda fit the "suggestions and ideas" criteria? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    but yer it sounds like a decent idea.. although if stuff stays cloaked, then walls of lame could be ptu every where without any having aclue O_O
  • Roger_DodgerRoger_Dodger Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14392Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Jun 11 2003, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Jun 11 2003, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sensory chambers need an upgrade that helps you on offence to make them usefull. You can add as many features to it as you want in the end the game is to be played offensively and cloaking wont help you when you rush an outpost while carpace and celerity/adrenaline does. My suggestion would be to remove pheromones and instead put in an upgrade that jams the sensory equippment of marine automated defenses as follow:

    1.) Turrets have a harder time to hit aliens with the jam upgrade. Something about 50% less hits.
    2.) Mines dont trigger if an alien with the jam upgrade runs over them. Or have a fixed % chance to set one off for example if an alien runs ofer a mine theres a 20% chance the mine detects him and blows (like russian roulette <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
    3.) The upgrade jams the detection system of electrified structures allowing the aliens to chew them without taking damage

    This upgrade fits the sensory chanmber, would be usefull on offense and compensate for the lack of armor or adrenaline/speed the aliens have if they choose sensory over the other chambers. And it would require different tactics for the marines if sensory is build cause its a counter to the usual tactics to just mine spam or electrify the nodes forcing them to defend more but having the advantage to kill the aliens easier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ouch that idea almost makes all other sensory upgrades useless. I'd prefer if jam worked the way you said but one of the other sensory upgrades negated marine abilities rather than building abilities. EG: 1 for marines and 1 for buildings. The anti marine tech would be reduced effect of MT or complete removal of MT for that alien as well as giving cloak to it when not moving or attacking.

    The third well its got me baffled maybe some sort of compromise between the two or sumthing totally different. Perhaps increased attack strength and increased attack speed i dunno perhaps too overpowered (increase energy cost to combat it).
    Suggestions, ideas??


    - RD
  • MaianMaian Join Date: 2003-02-27 Member: 14069Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
    Maybe it's time to rename Sensory to some different name, since it's hard to find good ideas that make sense with "sensory."
  • Amped1Amped1 Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13287Members
    Personally my favorite SC idea was Awareness. It let the aliens subconciously tearup weak parts of the marine armor to do more damage.
  • taboofirestaboofires Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
    Yes, something that improved the offensive ability of aliens would be the only thing that can make sens worthwhile at first. In the early game, you have to be offensive to keep the marines contained.

    A few ways that sensories could have offensive capabilities: 1) increased damage evolution, basically as a counter to armor level one and would help with area denial (lerks) 2) MT blocker evolution (so you can make sneak attacks), which still won't make it first-chamber worthy because the marines don't usually go MT THAT early 3) something that you can already do in 1.1: build sensories in choke points, man with skulks. Countered with observatory scans (it does need a counter, after all).

    Note: One thing that sensory will absolutely need to be viable as first hive chamber is that it will have to be useful for lerks. Cloaking isn't useful, because you become visible when you attack and you have to attack for long periods straight with spikes/spores. The detection abilities aren't really useful for lerks either (or at least not nearly as useful as for melee kharaa). If going sensory deprives you of lerks, it deprives you of options.
  • Sucky_DuckySucky_Ducky Join Date: 2003-05-04 Member: 16043Members
    Just so you guys know, constant scan is NOT possible anymore, because Obs now use some form of energy, which charges (slowly) over time... So a siege at say a cloaked hive would still not be able to kill it, since they can't scan it that much... (don't know if this works, have to playtest Ns 1.1 first <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
  • PlanetkillerPlanetkiller Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17028Members
    I may be burned alive for this, but I'm of the opinion improving cloaking (evolution) would assist alot

    i.e. Make it work while moving. You start off just semi-translucant, so it's only a bit more difficult to see you, and this improves with the level of cloaking that you have up to L3, which is like the current version is when you stop. When you attack you decloak though.
  • Roger_DodgerRoger_Dodger Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14392Members
    Hmmm i dunno coz sense could help lerks i reckon, scent of fear would provide high places to sit and wait for rines to spike knowing where they are or at the very least hurt them a little making them showup for everyone else, or with cloak u can sit somewhere undetected and then hit the rine with spikes, run away cloak hit with spikes etc.

    Knowing where rines are helps all aliens.

    If sense upgraded the attack somehow then it would also help lerks. I agree lerks prolly not as effective as other aliens with sense first but it would have definate uses.


    - RD
  • imsuxokimsuxok Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10441Members
    edited June 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Planetkiller+Jun 11 2003, 12:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Planetkiller @ Jun 11 2003, 12:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I may be burned alive for this, but I'm of the opinion improving cloaking (evolution) would assist alot

    i.e. Make it work while moving. You start off just semi-translucant, so it's only a bit more difficult to see you, and this improves with the level of cloaking that you have up to L3, which is like the current version is when you stop. When you attack you decloak though. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This idea should really be tested and played around with, if it hasn't been already. It would be a definite offensive advantage. However, I think the percentage of transparency would have to be toned down considerably from current levels. Perhaps it could be combined with nullification of motion tracking as well, to round it out. Just to toss out some numbers, how about 25% transparency at level 1, 50% at level 2, and 70% at level 3. You would still cloak completely within range of a sensory however.


    Another idea I've been thinking of is 100% transparency for a limited amount of time, depending on how many chambers you have. For instance, 3 seconds at level 1, 5 seconds at level 2 and 6 seconds at level 3. You would have to activate this ability and there would be a cooldown period once the cloak wears off.
  • PlanetkillerPlanetkiller Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17028Members
    Yeah, that's the kind of thing I meant, and nullification of MT certainly would be a good idea (something should). I don't think that they will ever have activatable evolutions, but hey, tis a cool idea anyway.
  • JamlJaml Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9054Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Roger Dodger+Jun 11 2003, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roger Dodger @ Jun 11 2003, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Jun 11 2003, 08:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Jun 11 2003, 08:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sensory chambers need an upgrade that helps you on offence to make them usefull. You can add as many features to it as you want in the end the game is to be played offensively and cloaking wont help you when you rush an outpost while carpace and celerity/adrenaline does. My suggestion would be to remove pheromones and instead put in an upgrade that jams the sensory equippment of marine automated defenses as follow:

    1.) Turrets have a harder time to hit aliens with the jam upgrade. Something about 50% less hits.
    2.) Mines dont trigger if an alien with the jam upgrade runs over them. Or have a fixed % chance to set one off for example if an alien runs ofer a mine theres a 20% chance the mine detects him and blows (like russian roulette  <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
    3.) The upgrade jams the detection system of electrified structures allowing the aliens to chew them without taking damage

    This upgrade fits the sensory chanmber, would be usefull on offense and compensate for the lack of armor or adrenaline/speed the aliens have if they choose sensory over the other chambers. And it would require different tactics for the marines if sensory is build cause its a counter to the usual tactics to just mine spam or electrify the nodes forcing them to defend more but having the advantage to kill the aliens easier. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ouch that idea almost makes all other sensory upgrades useless. I'd prefer if jam worked the way you said but one of the other sensory upgrades negated marine abilities rather than building abilities. EG: 1 for marines and 1 for buildings. The anti marine tech would be reduced effect of MT or complete removal of MT for that alien as well as giving cloak to it when not moving or attacking.

    The third well its got me baffled maybe some sort of compromise between the two or sumthing totally different. Perhaps increased attack strength and increased attack speed i dunno perhaps too overpowered (increase energy cost to combat it).
    Suggestions, ideas??


    - RD <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It wouldn?t make the other upgrades useless since higher alien evolutions have nothing to fear from automated defenses since they don?t pose a threat to them so they would be better of taking scent of fear or cloaking. Increasing attack strenght would be a bad idea. Imagine an already powerful onos with that upgrade. That would be overpowered. Increasing attack speed is already in the game in form of lerks primal scream. The game should encourage human defense over automated defense since it promotes teamwork. So a counter to automatic defenses would be good for a change of tactics on the marine side. And only skulks and lerks could gain an advantage since they are the only lifeforms that have to fear those defenses. I like the MT + cloak idea. Would make the cloak-upgrade useful. I mean the aliens are left without all the leet offensive upgrades that DC and MC give them so they need to gain something usefull with SC?s.
  • 10RoUNdTOmMYgUN10RoUNdTOmMYgUN Join Date: 2002-05-03 Member: 572Members
    There's balance and fair , the jam is neither fair nor is it balancing for ns. Thats like suggesting a phase ability so you can simply walk thru walls. It would totaly set back electrified sentries. Skulks can already group up and wipe out a sentry farm , this would just not work.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    I still don't understand why SCs need to have an offensive upgrade. The SC is a choice: When you choose the SC, you decide to focus on defense. You keep the marines contained by ambushing them at every stage. If you have sensories and they get lots of outposts up everywhere, you're not doing your job, and you'd better choose carapace next time. The problem with SC STILL is that it requires a different mindset: The standard cara skulk is like the Zergling from Starcraft: Fast, weak, and tries to overwhelm the enemy with speed or numbers. A cloaking skulk is more like a ninja: It sits invisible somewhere and waits for prey. The problem is that people try to play like cara skulks with sensory and then get their behinds handed to them. It's like ramboing as a marine: You aren't suited to that role.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    If Jaml's idea (page 1) about the jamming upgrade were to go in - that would be great.

    I would also throw in some kind of anti-MT upgrade. If Jam and Anti-MT were in - Sensory would own.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Anything which foils MT is HIGHLY dangerous though.

    Because marines quickly become dependant on it, just one skulk that didn't show up makes the alien that much scarier.

    How about.... A 'Ghost Image' upgrade? Where Aliens with cloak do show up on MT, but in the wrong places? Within a radius based on number of Chambers?
  • ForlornForlorn Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Jun 11 2003, 09:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Jun 11 2003, 09:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1.) Turrets have a harder time to hit aliens with the jam upgrade. Something about 50% less hits.
    2.) Mines dont trigger if an alien with the jam upgrade runs over them. Or have a fixed % chance to set one off for example if an alien runs ofer a mine theres a 20% chance the mine detects him and blows (like russian roulette <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
    3.) The upgrade jams the detection system of electrified structures allowing the aliens to chew them without taking damage

    This upgrade fits the sensory chanmber, would be usefull on offense and compensate for the lack of armor or adrenaline/speed the aliens have if they choose sensory over the other chambers. And it would require different tactics for the marines if sensory is build cause its a counter to the usual tactics to just mine spam or electrify the nodes forcing them to defend more but having the advantage to kill the aliens easier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Wow... this is a great idea!


    I'd say that the numbers are a bit high, but something along the lines he mentions is good.
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