About Lerk Vote
Lt_Hendrickson
Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
First of all it depresses me to see bite losing but don't forget the bite lovers votes are split in two between option 1 and 2. And also it depresses me to see such a vote cause lousy lerks don't use bite so of course they going to vote spike cause most lerks are lousy. I'm so sad. Must keep bite. And spikes over spores.
Edit added here:
I didn't expect this to last more than a page so i didn't say things very cleary above but the point im bringing out is the vote is heavily biased.
1. Bite isn't losing that bad. Biter votes are split between two options.
2. People who don't lerk often rarly even bother to try biting people and just sit and snipe. Most people don't lerk often. Therefore theres a good handful that don't even use lerk probably voting for spikes cause they rarly lerk and when they did, mostly used spikes so they don't care if bite goes.
3. Primal Scream was only in option two. Primal scream is a nice thing and fits well in lots of people opinion. Being only in option two with no bite could draw some more votes away from it.
Also something flayra should consider is that some peeple like spores and tons of people absolutly HATE em. The only thing i want to see more than adding bite is taking spores out. Theres nothing more anoying than seeing air tight tanks (HAs) choke to death. Perhaps adding a forth option of bite,spikes,umbra,primal scream.
Last possible line up is bite,umbra,spores,scream but i think thats out of the question.
Last but not least this post was only intended to point out the biased of the poll and not a bite vs. whatever debating grounds. There was already posts for that. But truth is I don't care is this turned into one so let debates rage on and I believe flayra should consider reading this whole thing because both sides bring up many points. Bite has brought up more better points in my opinion so far. I;ve quoted some in here somewhere but thats my opinion.
Edit added here:
I didn't expect this to last more than a page so i didn't say things very cleary above but the point im bringing out is the vote is heavily biased.
1. Bite isn't losing that bad. Biter votes are split between two options.
2. People who don't lerk often rarly even bother to try biting people and just sit and snipe. Most people don't lerk often. Therefore theres a good handful that don't even use lerk probably voting for spikes cause they rarly lerk and when they did, mostly used spikes so they don't care if bite goes.
3. Primal Scream was only in option two. Primal scream is a nice thing and fits well in lots of people opinion. Being only in option two with no bite could draw some more votes away from it.
Also something flayra should consider is that some peeple like spores and tons of people absolutly HATE em. The only thing i want to see more than adding bite is taking spores out. Theres nothing more anoying than seeing air tight tanks (HAs) choke to death. Perhaps adding a forth option of bite,spikes,umbra,primal scream.
Last possible line up is bite,umbra,spores,scream but i think thats out of the question.
Last but not least this post was only intended to point out the biased of the poll and not a bite vs. whatever debating grounds. There was already posts for that. But truth is I don't care is this turned into one so let debates rage on and I believe flayra should consider reading this whole thing because both sides bring up many points. Bite has brought up more better points in my opinion so far. I;ve quoted some in here somewhere but thats my opinion.
Comments
My opinions (and yes, I've played the game a lot):
Lerks need bite (against normal marines and marine structures)
Lerks need spikes (to kill JPers, to kill important structures at long ranges (killing TFs from dark corners <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Lerks need umbra (actually, ALIENS need umbra vs. good marines. This skill, like parasite, web and healing spray, is vital to the alien team)
Lerks need neither Spores nor Primal scream, but the alien team needs primal scream more than they need spores, so spores should be leaving.
Besides, playing lerk without bite seems very boring. Nothing in this game is as fun / rewarding / thrilling as killing a JP/HMGer in mid-air with a well-timed bite. Very few things are as fun as charging a marine through a long corridor and bite his head off. Standing still and using all your energy to just provide umbra and primal scream for your team sounds awfully dull...
eeeeeedit: though I guess the numbers would be changed :/
and seeing as 1.1 isnt 1.0, you playing alot isnt exactly a worthy statement.
1.1 wont play like 1.0, so something that was good, bad, easy to pull off, hard to pull off, in 1.0, isnt necessarily going to play the same as 1.1
If it doesnt work out, it wont go in. Simple as that. Now stop complaining.
take note of the lerk bite vote: it's saying 60% don't want bite 40% DOES Want lerk bite...
40% is a LOT of people that will lose their much loved lerk weapon...
oh, BTW bite is underused, mostly because few people have the ability to fly a lerk.
so the issue here, is not bite, but flight <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would like to see how people react with 1.1 flight scheme and bite.
I think bite should be kept in in some way at least so that people can try bite with the new flight model. I also agree with the fact that the lerks who are bad fliers perfer spikes and I'd rather not have my favorite class n00bified.
In 1.1 the main goal of the lerk to be a support player. Don't think of it as nerfing the lerk just think of it as forcing it to work with other players. Right now on most servers lerks could own most upgraded marines 1 on 1, its too simple. By removing bite you force lerks to interact with other members of the team in order to get the job done (aka teamwork). This might make lerks less attractive to play because you won't as much kills as you could with bite, but who cares, the scoring has been taken out anyways.
Lerks will be just as necessary and maybe a little less attractive to play because it can't go toe to toe with a marine in 1v1, but an alien team without a lerk will suffer greatly anyways so bite should be taken out.
skulks get bite
all lurks are...well... are "upgraded skulks", which practically make skulks useless. Let the skulks do their offensive job, let the lurks do their support job.
My advice to hardcore biters: GET OVER IT! Lerk wasnt meant to be the killing machine it is now. Try running instead of being the elite skulk! Lerk was never meant to be a "rawr" class. It was meant to be an aggravator class, like the way it is now. Dont say, OMG SUCKY PEOPLE VOTE SPIKE! cuz it isnt true. Back off.
Although it's hard to give a unbiased opinion without actually seeing this in action (and therefore basing my arguments on 1.04), I think Lerks should always have Melee-class alien following to be an effective attack force, instead of laying down umbra, spiking enemies at range, and biting anybody that gets close.
However, IMO, what I voted for was not the ideal configuration. Primal Scream? For the tiny Lerk? Doesn't this seem even a little weird? Ideally, the Lerk should have no Bite, and definitely not Primal Scream.
Lerks right now are a full assault class, being able to attack from a distance, attack melee, and also have various support abilities. This is just not the way it was meant to be, thats why I would wholeheartedly recommending sticking withthe current plan of action in removing lerk bite at level 0 and implementing primal scream at 3.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/akin42/lerk.html' target='_blank'>You can find it here</a>
I realise they didn't want lerks to be "flying skulks" but they improved the flight controls and made us able to cling to cealings (stationary like bats) so they should give us some sort of attack that requires flying skills, as I want to actualy USE my ability to fly in some fashion. I realy don't care what it is, as long as it requires flying.
Another note: it seams like some people who prefered bite chose option 2 purely because it increased the ablility of lerks to support (by adding primal scream), which I aggree is half of their role. In 1.04 its less than 25% their role. I think primal scream WILL increase teamwork, however when not acting as a unit (because a base is not being assulted), lerks (being so fast) are usualy alone, and this make the ability to somehow offensivly use their flying skills very important. Perhaps if they want lerks to be different than skulks, make let them have a "tallon attack" that (i don't know, i'm being crazy here) does more damage when, i don't know, flying by the oppenent (like only did damage while you are in the air. Make it a 1 hive ability so those that those not gifted in the realm of flying still have a chance (although why they went lerk if they don't like to fly is beyond me. I mean I like ns because of up-close attacks, and Kharaa esp. because I don't like ranged combat as much... but I realy love lerk... the sensation of flying... and all the support abilites don't realy encurage airal (sp) combat much nor does dart (though it encurages flying away...). Actualy this in some form may be a good idea... make it so faster speed=more dammage (with a cap of course) maybe... just give us somthing... involving flying... (no spore cloud) I'm sorry... its just ns is the only game I know of where you can be this kind of unit...
Lerks will be just as necessary and maybe a little less attractive to play because it can't go toe to toe with a marine in 1v1, but an alien team without a lerk will suffer greatly anyways so bite should be taken out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Right now the lerk is (in the hands of a skilled player) both a support unit and a super-skulk. Since his support abilities are being boosted, it makes sense to better define him a specialized unit. Just because the lerk is becoming less of a brawler does not mean that his importance to the alien team is being reduced.
And please, don't call spore cloud useless. It's meant to be used for area denial, not spammed like bile bomb. How many times have you seen marines sit at the end of a long hall and pick off every skulk who comes into view? Any smart marine does it. In an area like Mother Interface or the halls outside PowerSilo, it's childishly simple to hold off the aliens while your buddies build sieges to kill the hive. A v1.1 lerk, however, can stack a few spore clouds on top of the marines and force them to move from that wonderful position. The skulks can then move forward and engage them as soon as they turn the corner, giving them a fighting chance.
Well if what testers says means ANYTHING about half the players just stoped playing lerks and some stoped playing... And perhaps you mean <u>addition</u> not <u>addition<i>s</i></u>. The only thing they are adding is primal scream, which I agree is needed to allow them to be a support class rather than just a flyer with a support addon... and umbra being ranged helps there too... but they are still a flyer, and there is another flyer in the game, and the JP'er needs a counter other than haveing to land (I always was a true fan of the arial battles between jp'ers and lerks. I usualy won when the odds were against me or did enough that somone else got lucky and finished it after I died). Regardless this topic is realy about the existance of the spam known as spore cloud. Its cheep, requires no skill, and most importantly, doens't give me an excuse to fly. I realy love flying, but without an attack best used while flying... lerks arn't that fun to many lerk'ers... now i'm not downplaying the importance of spike, I use spike when i can't get close enough to bite(or when they back off as I get close enough to bite again).... Kharaa realy do need range... but the range should be so lopsided that they must only use their wings to fly away... this would make them far too noob friendly to the point where skill is not an issue at all...
<u>I get the distinct feeling <i>some</i> people were making a fuss because <b>they</b> happen to 0wn with the Lerk bite. I don't have a problem with them 0wning, but I do have a problem when they make a fuss because <b>they</b> lose something <b>they</b> like when <b>they</b> haven't even given the potentially interesting role change a chance. Awfully selfish I think.</u>
Lerk in support role? Very interesting indeed. I'm down for a change.
And guys, if it ends up to totally suck, don't you think Flay will change it back?
It's all good friends, it's all good. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
anyway personally i prefer the old lerk to the new one. to me spikes are absolutely essential because i like games where i get to show off my aim. bite i'm not too happy with because the flight right now is counter-intuitive. however i still think bite should stay coz i've seen some players do amazing things with lerk bite and i admire them and i like being surprised with how players use the classes; i like the variety. umbra i think should not be projectable because i think if the lerk is able to help his team with that shield he should have to risk himself by jumping into the middle of the action to deploy it. spores i do not like too much coz it is too skilless and doesn't show off how good my aim is. i think the lerk should have a bomb that it drops instead. the bomb simply releases with a velocity the same as the lerk when fired and is acted upon by gravity. i think having to risk your life by flying close to the enemies position to drop a bomb is much more dramatic and exciting. of course you can also lunge at the enemies really fast then release the bomb and try to fly back again without going over their heads. the bomb will fly forward at them with great horizontal velocity because of how fast you were flying when you released it. in any case this attack would take much more skill and i think should be devastating and the bomb can act like a bile bomb or spores, i don't mind. it's just the way spores are fired right now which is too boring.
btw about the fact that the lerk should not be too tough because it has wings which are supposed to be fragile. how about if you make the lerk tougher but if it get's injured beyong a certian point then it can't fly.
And guys, if it ends up to totally suck, don't you think Flay will change it back?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, primal scream and umbra being projectile does make lerk more of a support role, which I think they should always be... but spore cloud does NOT help them fill that role... if anything it hinders it... also they still need a flying attack, for those players who take a more airal approch to the lerk... Why arn't we talking about bite vs. spore cloud instead of new vs old??
As for the second part, as it is many people don't use the bite even when they are attacking lone res nodes! These people will only notice the possitive changes (ie the support parts) and not notice the huge whole that the path of the barron allowed one to be... so if it is implemented with spore cloud instead of bite... most people won't notice and won't care... those who love to fly... well... things won't get changed later...
And guys, if it ends up to totally suck, don't you think Flay will change it back?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, primal scream and umbra being projectile does make lerk more of a support role, which I think they should always be... but spore cloud does NOT help them fill that role... if anything it hinders it... also they still need a flying attack, for those players who take a more airal approch to the lerk... Why arn't we talking about bite vs. spore cloud instead of new vs old?? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm...
Spores <i>couldn't be any more</i> of a support weapon imo. If there there was a NS dictionary next to the definition of support you would probably see a picture of a spore cloud.
Definition of support fire from the DOD Dictionary of Military Terms;
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->supporting fire
(DOD, NATO) Fire delivered by supporting units to assist or protect a unit in combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bite is a melee weapon.
If you have a valid point anywhere it is perhaps that the Lerk bite gives a player who excels at flying an attack that utilizes "edge-of-your-pants" aerial manouvering. However I can think of a few ways a good Lerk flyer could use his aerial manouvering for support purposes.
I wanted to add that Flay had mentioned he wanted smaller, tighter maps in the future. I think the current maps don't fully show off the usefulness of spores. In tight quarters you could potentially bottleneck a hallway with spore clouds to support a skulk pack rush. Ns_nothing has several areas that spores could really be useful. The new delivery method for spores is better too imo.
But I'm getting kinda off my point, the point is I don't think spores is better then bite or that bite is better then spores. The point is the changes for the Lerk in v1.1 makes it a totally different alien with a totally different role. And I happen to think the role change is worth a try. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDiTS: A whole bunch of changes and additions. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, its nice and pretty to think of creating classes from a fps perspective, but we have to rember, people will actualy play this? while those unskilled might love it "Just spam 2,3 and 4, right???", do skilled dogfighters realy want to spam gas? Or fear being alone when the attacks consist of just pairs of skulks? Is that realy fun??Yes, some players like the sniper/support and will dart anyways... but others think their minature dragons (yes, I am insain) and want to go the path of the divebomber/support... no matter how you cut it, some players will want to use their wings...
Is it just me, or is Primal scream ill-suited to an alien the size of my forearm?
Is it just me, or is Primal scream ill-suited to an alien the size of my forearm? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well when you think about it, not realy. I belive the PT'ers said that it is higher pitch now (more like a warcry some crazy lerk would scream) and it does fit the role, but it should replace that dirty move of gas.
slot1 = bite
slot2 = spike
slot3 = umbra
slot4 = primal scream
I really don't think spores is needed. Spores, being so nerfed as they are to be the lerk default ability, will pretty much be useless once the marines have any kind of armor upgrade. The only, ONLY thing I see spores being used as is to eat up medpack spam. If spores is doing 2 damage a second or so, what marine would honestly care and get distracted? He'll only have to be in the cloud for about one minute to die. And one minute is a LONG time in natural-selection.
This is my proposal.
I had an idea a while ago that using Charge would automatically release a primal scream. Thus combining two hard-to-arrange abilities. But did anyone listen? Nooo...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umbra and primal scream are good support abilities, spikes is the aliens' only good long-range weapon, so the lerk just needs something for close range to be perfect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... there it is. Somebody just spoke the reason why the lerk <i>should</i> lose bite. You guys want a "perfect" class in a game of strategy? You guys want a class that absolutely owns at both range and melee and who has all the support goodies too? And you wonder why you're disappointed?
Face it guys, you all had a shiny <i>perfect</i> little toy and now that mummy has taken it away, you're all throwing tantrums. I also take offence to people calling spike lerks <i>bad</i> lerks. Well, I'll say that bite lerks are bad <i>skulks</i>. If you need wings to use bite then you need help. You guys think it doesn't take skill to spike down 3 Jpers in your hive while dodging fire? You guys are so caught up in your little bite-world that you seem to think people don't bite because they <i>can't</i>. Well, I've got news for you, I don't bite because I don't give a flying fig about it. I can down a marine just fine with spikes. I'm not about to blow 35 res on a flying skulk thankyou very much. I can bite perfectly well without wings.
I know that lerk biting takes alot of skill and all. I understand that it's a great <i>show</i> of skill. But that's all it is. If you can bite a marine to death, chances are you can spike him to death instead. It's like knifing in CS, you coulda just put a bullet in the back of their head, but you wanted to show off by knifing them. This change doesn't necessarily make the lerk weaker (I don't think it does), what it does do is change the style of play, and you guys played for nothing but style. That's why you're annoyed. The style and flair of playing bite-lerks isn't going to be in 1.1 and that just pees you off. That is all.
slot1 = bite
slot2 = spike
slot3 = umbra
slot4 = primal scream
I really don't think spores is needed. Spores, being so nerfed as they are to be the lerk default ability, will pretty much be useless once the marines have any kind of armor upgrade. The only, ONLY thing I see spores being used as is to eat up medpack spam. If spores is doing 2 damage a second or so, what marine would honestly care and get distracted? He'll only have to be in the cloud for about one minute to die. And one minute is a LONG time in natural-selection.
This is my proposal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I would vote for too. I'm not gonna vote, since my preferred option isn't there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bite, Spike, Umbra, Primal Scream.
Ravlen
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umbra and primal scream are good support abilities, spikes is the aliens' only good long-range weapon, so the lerk just needs something for close range to be perfect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... there it is. Somebody just spoke the reason why the lerk <i>should</i> lose bite. You guys want a "perfect" class in a game of strategy? You guys want a class that absolutely owns at both range and melee and who has all the support goodies too? And you wonder why you're disappointed?
Face it guys, you all had a shiny <i>perfect</i> little toy and now that mummy has taken it away, you're all throwing tantrums. I also take offence to people calling spike lerks <i>bad</i> lerks. Well, I'll say that bite lerks are bad <i>skulks</i>. If you need wings to use bite then you need help. You guys think it doesn't take skill to spike down 3 Jpers in your hive while dodging fire? You guys are so caught up in your little bite-world that you seem to think people don't bite because they <i>can't</i>. Well, I've got news for you, I don't bite because I don't give a flying fig about it. I can down a marine just fine with spikes. I'm not about to blow 35 res on a flying skulk thankyou very much. I can bite perfectly well without wings.
I know that lerk biting takes alot of skill and all. I understand that it's a great <i>show</i> of skill. But that's all it is. If you can bite a marine to death, chances are you can spike him to death instead. It's like knifing in CS, you coulda just put a bullet in the back of their head, but you wanted to show off by knifing them. This change doesn't necessarily make the lerk weaker (I don't think it does), what it does do is change the style of play, and you guys played for nothing but style. That's why you're annoyed. The style and flair of playing bite-lerks isn't going to be in 1.1 and that just pees you off. That is all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for the wonderful flame. This is a perfect example on why some people shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Keep the flame coming Calantus.
I dunno, if spike stays (I'd like it to), can we have a hitscan animation, somewhat like the occasional tracer that the marines have now? Maybe the same thing, but a different colour?
Ravlen