I know what you mean twex, it is a problem, but maybe not as bad as you think.
For example in my city there is a school system suffering from budget problems and it need a better budget. But everytime they hold a vote mostly only elderly people whose kids are already graduated go to vote, and they vote no. People who would vote yes were people such as working fathers and busy mothers.
I don't know how you can fix this problem, but I say the forumgoers pretty much accurately represent the whole population of NS, unlike in my example.
not having played 1.1 yet, i've no idea what the weapons will be like - yes i like bite, but i'd like to see what the lerk will be like.
however there is one question banging around in my head, i think someone mentioned it briefly earlier. What difference does it now make that the lerk can fly? all attacks are ranged (except maybe the scream) so the flying now seems a gimmicky way of making the lerk different from the other aliens. It will still be very useful for getting around the map, but theres now no need to fly in and umbra or anything, its all just sit miles away from the fight and fire stuff in.
thats just how i see it, hopefully i'm wrong. Possibly a better thing would be to make umbra and spores be dropped like a bomb(or rather like the bilebomb, but taking into account your current motion[is this possible?]), so if you're flying fast and high, you can still get it a fair way, if you're on the floor or not moving much it goes off quite near, sort of like umbra does now. this might be over doing it but it was just my thought on a potential down point.
I'm not opposed at all to the 'bomb' idea, but aside from that, the Lerk flight remains the best way of dodging marine fire there is. To take another members example up - which else class can dodge the fire of three jetpackers and at the same time return fire?
Twex, I agree, but what do you suggest? Resolving the IPs of everyone who downloaded NS and sending mails? I've already seen multiple fansites linking to the poll.
Apart from the fact that resolving IPs won't yield any email adresses <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> , I'm of course aware that it's impossible to even inform a majority of NS players that the poll exists. In a "community" as fragmented and heterogenous as this one, conclusive polls cannot be conducted.
I was simply trying to dispell the common myth that a game forum can accurately represent the whole game population. Only a certain demographic bothers to become a member here, mainly social, talkative and authoritarian people (who coincidentally will never disagree with any decision a higher-up, in this case Flayra, makes), whereas both the competitive and the newbish players are underrepresented, as the type of discussion going on here does not interest them. Of course it is possible to argue that their opinion does not matter in a design decision for that very reason. That would not be democratic though.
While I agree again, art, and gamedesign is in a way art, is just not democratic. You can't paint a picture, write a book, or make music based on popular opinion - or better, you can, but the result is what we get when tuning in to MTV. Every favored object is a found object - thus, even this poll (and note that it's apparently resulting in favor of the option I voted for) can be at its best a hint to a descision, it can't lead to a definite descision.
And in that framework, a sufficiently big group, which is presented by this community, is as good as any other.
Judging by a lot of the comments made on these boards, the average forum-poster isn't a very good lerk. Some have suggested that the lerk is overpowered or "too well-rounded" in 1.04. If that was the case, why doesn't everyone always go lerk? Why isn't the marine strategy forum flooded with spam about "countering lerk abuse" (like the alien forum is full of "how to counter JPs?")? Is the lerk in 1.04, when played by a skilled player, more useful to the team than a skulk? Yes! That's why it costs 33 resources to go lerk! I'd say the problems with the lerk in 1.04 are as follows: Overpriced (Lerk for 33 or fade for 54, the fade is a lot more powerful) Too energy-draining flight Pointless 3-hive skill (although, in 1.04, he's not alone: Babblers, Xenocide and Bile bomb are pretty redundant as well)
The problems are _NOT_: Overpowered (JP / HMG is overpowered, Fade for 44 res was overpowered. Onos is overpowered.) Not teamwork dependant (Try killing a decent HA / HMG squad with an entire team of fades. Umbra and Web / Heal spray is nessecary) Not a support class (It is already a support class, Fade is an example of "not a support class")
Also, for mindless killing, spores are better than bite in 1.04, since you don't need to expose yourself to any counter-attacks and since it has an enormous area of effect.
I'm in no way opposed to giving Primal Scream to the lerk (which would make it even more of a support class), but if you do, remove spores instead of bite!
If i recall correctly, in an early beta, Lerk had the bilebomb and could drop it like erm...a bomb. not sure why it was removed but i think it was because it was too deadly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+May 17 2003, 02:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ May 17 2003, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Apart from the fact that resolving IPs won't yield any email adresses <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> , I'm of course aware that it's impossible to even inform a majority of NS players that the poll exists. In a "community" as fragmented and heterogenous as this one, conclusive polls cannot be conducted.
I was simply trying to dispell the common myth that a game forum can accurately represent the whole game population. Only a certain demographic bothers to become a member here, mainly social, talkative and authoritarian people (who coincidentally will never disagree with any decision a higher-up, in this case Flayra, makes), whereas both the competitive and the newbish players are underrepresented, as the type of discussion going on here does not interest them. Of course it is possible to argue that their opinion does not matter in a design decision for that very reason. That would not be democratic though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hmm if you don't mind my saying, you're pulling conclusions out of thin air. I agree it might not be representative but then there is absoluteley no way any of us would know. We have absolutely no idea what kind of a demographic registeres all we can do is guess. Since we can't make any safe assumptions on the nature of individuals taking part we must assume that the actors are choosen trough simple random selection. And simple random selection is probably the best way to select actors to take part in this particular poll, in which case we must assume that it is indeed representative.
Since any social science student will tell you simple random selection is probably the safest selection procedure for a questionnaire.
hmmm lerk bile bomb <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> nah gorge bile bomb at hive two is cool too <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
also one problem, the vote says: bite, spike, spores, umbra (1.04) does that mean as umbra hive 3 or is it just not put at the right place?
in conclusion, my preferred option is the one that has been presented, removing the spores, but keeping both spikes and bite.
My main problem with the removing of bite is that it nullify's the lerk's ability to effectively harass marine structures.
Now, most of you may be thinking "But I use spike to harass marine structures all the time!" But how often do you come across a lone resource node, and spike it to death? No, you *bite* it, because biting just does exponentially more damage per lost energy than spores do. If you remove bite, you just reduce the lerk to a flying rat that can't defend itself to save its life (literally), or kill any lone marine structures it finds without help.
Have you guys ever considered the psycological effect removing bite may cause? I don't know about you, but as an alien, I want to feel like I have a fair chance of killing any marine that gets in my path. As a lerk in 1.1 what can I do...flap around wildly and gas the marine, HOPING that in the 10 seconds that the spikes/spores take to kill him that I won't be shot to bits? And if I really am this unable to defend myself without a fade or skulk buddy, what's the point of having flight? Why can I get places FASTER than my friends if I need them to stand a chance of living? Why, as Joe NS player, would I want to evolve to a lerk when I could barely get any kills? I'd be more effective if I stayed a skulk!
The problem here is that you're going to be asking people to evolve into something weaker than their original class, without it really being *integral* to the team as is the gorge (I've seen teams of Fades tear down marine bases without umbra). Right now, you barely have people go lerk for just that reason - most save for fades instead. The only real incentive right now - and that incentive is obviously already to a small base - is that, with enough skill, the lerk and his bite can be even more lethal than the skulk and sometimes even the fade.
I honestly think this change would be similar to removing the scout's crowbar in TFC. I know that, when I played that game years ago, I could use the scout and his crowbar to run circles around Heavy-Weapons Guys, hit them in the back dozens of times, and kil them. Was the scout intended to be a HWG killing machine? No! Can he be one? Yes! Removing the crowbar and making the scout a single-minded flag capturing machine would make the class boring, and it's doubtful many would play as it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
You guys just need to recognize that, in order to get players to play a class that is statistically weaker than the base skulk, you need to provide some skill factor. A newbie lerk, with spikes, umbra, and primal scream (honestly, I find spores kind of useless...) can get the job done as a support class, which was the original intention. A skiled lerk, however, should be able to perform support functions AND kill a few marines in the process. Otherwise, there's just no fun in or reason for evolving to the lerk.
yes if you make a game where player's skill plays no part then you are essentially left with an RTS and personally RTS games bore me a great deal. and all the matches will turn out very similar to each other. i like where the outcome is decided by the RTS and also the FPS aspect. i like when i'm surprisedl; when a player pulls off something absolutely incredible and is admired like a hero and everyone on the team is cheering him on and laughing at the other team about how flabbergasted they must be. that will all be gone if skill is not allowed to play a part. have you ever seen one unit in an RTS go totally berzerk and start slaughtering the enemy team? no i don't think so. that doesn't happen in RTS games but it can happen in real life and it should happen in this game when some player with huge skill and intelligence gets "in the zone". player skill makes the game less monotonous and less predictable and will keep the interest in the battle high all the way to the end.
one way to make it so that skill plays a less part is to make it so our aim is controlled more by bot-code. for example make randomization cones that increase on all weapons and the projectiles go in totally random directions with no pattern that expert players can compensate for and make those cones increase when we move, rotate, are being shot at, when we are looking in the dark, when we are looking at bright lights, when we are standing near a chasm, when we are surrounded by the enemy. basically everything to simulate fear and nervousness or bad eyesight rather than letting the players own personal emotions and other real-life attributes determine that. so basically all the code you might use if you were coding the AI for a bot to make it seem more human-like. even without this code human player's aim gets worse in these situations yet some programmers feel the need to add this bot code and it just pisses me off. no more jumping from one outstretched plank to another while turning to the side and shooting 3 players in the head and then landing and getting to safety. there will be no more of trying to do those incredible things that take lots of skill and get admiration from other players.
i guess another way to make skill play less of a part is to make weapons easy to fire and that have huge uniform areas of effect like the spore. the spore is instant hit and not affected by gravity and has a huge uniform area of effect it seems. i'd prefer to have spore be dropped like a bomb, so it will be affected by gravity and it's velocity will be the same as the lerk when it is released just like a real bomb dropped from an airplane. yes it is possible to have the projectiles be affected by the players velocity because currently the bile bomb and grenade are like that. however if this change is made i think the damage should be much higher and the damage should be higher at the point of impact and taper off around that point.
Having the lerk drop real bombs (something like bile bomb) would be a nice effect, but then it should not do damage to the lerk because in most maps there is no way to avoid the splash damage (any flight sim player knows you shouldn't drop free-fall bombs in low level flight).
However, the new changes may make the lerk fill a role very different from either the support of attack role: the stealth attacker. If spikes are implemented without tracers, and spores still allow cloaking to continue, a silenced and cloaked lerk could be very annoying for the marines.
As is lerks are practically one man armies, in the hand of a good player. They have a long range attack and a short ranage attack, and the only true way to get at them is with grenades (hive 2). I would rather see a TRUE supporting role, where the lerk is vulnerable without skulk support. Anything that promotes teamwork is a good idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Judging by a lot of the comments made on these boards, the average forum-poster isn't a very good lerk. Some have suggested that the lerk is overpowered or "too well-rounded" in 1.04. If that was the case, why doesn't everyone always go lerk? Why isn't the marine strategy forum flooded with spam about "countering lerk abuse" (like the alien forum is full of "how to counter JPs?")? Is the lerk in 1.04, when played by a skilled player, more useful to the team than a skulk? Yes! That's why it costs 33 resources to go lerk!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the last damn time: The fact that someone isn't as good as you are at the game doesn't make his or her opinion less justified. Most people in here have been around for sufficiently long to grasp the game and play it good enough to have fun with it - and with this, they are entitled to their opinion, as are <i>you</i>, for exactely the same reason.
<!--QuoteBegin--rashban+May 16 2003, 06:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rashban @ May 16 2003, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All too true. Basically, good lerks use bite and the lerks extreme mobility to kill normal marines and spikes + bite vs. jetpackers, whereas bad lerks bump into walls and corners too much to be able to use bite, so they use the spikes instead. Bad lerks are just pale copies of JP / LMG marines. I really think spores should be leaving, it's without contest the most mindless, skill-less weapon in the game. How can you possibly be a "good sporer"? The area of effect is enormous, it doesn't do much damage, it won't kill much on its own. Any newbie will be just as deadly with spores as the most grizzled NS-veteran. Umbra and primal scream are good support abilities, spikes is the aliens' only good long-range weapon, so the lerk just needs something for close range to be perfect. Also, all lerk abilities (especially his flight!) are really energy-draining, so he needs something for dealing damage without having to wait for his energy-bar to fill up all the time (ever tried spiking a resource-tower to death?). I think you really should have "Bite + Spikes + Umbra + Primal scream" as an option in your poll...
My opinions (and yes, I've played the game a lot): Lerks need bite (against normal marines and marine structures) Lerks need spikes (to kill JPers, to kill important structures at long ranges (killing TFs from dark corners <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Lerks need umbra (actually, ALIENS need umbra vs. good marines. This skill, like parasite, web and healing spray, is vital to the alien team) Lerks need neither Spores nor Primal scream, but the alien team needs primal scream more than they need spores, so spores should be leaving.
Besides, playing lerk without bite seems very boring. Nothing in this game is as fun / rewarding / thrilling as killing a JP/HMGer in mid-air with a well-timed bite. Very few things are as fun as charging a marine through a long corridor and bite his head off. Standing still and using all your energy to just provide umbra and primal scream for your team sounds awfully dull... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Dude I entirely disagree about you. Good lerks are the ones that use umbra to protect the fades or hives, not the ones that kill marines with umbra+bite. You say any newbie can be deadly with spores. I say whats the big deal? You want to say at the end of the game something like "Noob lerks, I have more kills with bite than you with spores". You do realize that 1.1 will no longer have a scoreboard, and lerk was always intended to be a support class, not a marine killer. Never.
First statement: I'm a ""elite"" lerk... I bite, I bite, I bite, I bite, I bite, and with cara (or regen at second hive) I just don't die short of turning a corner to find a shotgun point blank or two hmgs (pretty much).
Yet, I vote for no bite. Why? Because it's too insanely good now. Even (perhaps especially) in match situations, a lerk on silent flyby bite mode can get 2 marines and be gone before they can get more than a few bullets in. The only time spikes are useful now are in hitting bases such as powersilo (rafters!). Umbra, while fine for support, turns the lerk's best option into umbraing and then GOING IN AND BITING THEMSELVES!
This is not okay. The lerk should be a support role, and I vote all the more for this option knowing that the people who use the lerk as a fighter class (including me!) will have to support. I like support, and I do so as much as possible, but when it comes down to it, I get **** and go in and bite them all to death instead (though I bite right off in scrims/matches). Just about the only thing remotely afraid of a lerk is a heavy armor, but even then umbra is very effective in screwing them over (and then you throw in bite). A lerk with spikes, spores, umbra, and primal scream (screech?) will still be effective, just not alone. Umbra is very helpful, spores will still manage to be useful when "sieging" (term used loosely) marine bases with welders hiding behind structures... And spikes provide them an opportunity to defend themselves at least a little, and to (primarily) conduct guerilla raids, quite possibly drawing the enemy out for heaviers to kill due to their greater speed. This sounds VERY balanecd, and even if the lerk ends up slightly underpowered, I'd rather have a support lerk than a dogfighter.
That said, I have one tiny possible problem with the proposed system... What happens if a lerk passes by an unprotected (and unelectrified) res tower? Would seem they'd pretty much have to ignore it, which is a little silly, since spiking one down takes forever and a day.
"Dude I entirely disagree about you. Good lerks are the ones that use umbra to protect the fades or hives, not the ones that kill marines with umbra+bite. You say any newbie can be deadly with spores. I say whats the big deal? You want to say at the end of the game something like "Noob lerks, I have more kills with bite than you with spores". You do realize that 1.1 will no longer have a scoreboard, and lerk was always intended to be a support class, not a marine killer. Never. "
Ok, a JP / HMGer enters your hive room, you're a lerk in the hive room. What do you do? a) Sit on the hive, twiddle your thumbs, use Umbra every 5th second, wait for fades to arrive or b) Place an umbra on the hive, take off, fly to avoid the HMG fire and try to take him down with spikes & bite
What sounds like more fun? What does more for the team?
Similary, what is more fun? Swooping over a marine at high speed and try to bite him, or sitting in a dark vent and launch a spore cloud every 3 seconds towards the marines' armory, trying to kill the armory-humpers there? I don't care about scores (if I only cared about stats, I'd play as fade), I want to have fun, and I don't want balanced and skill-dependant weapons replaced by dumbed-down weapons that require 0 aim or practice (note, this is not about spikes, it's about spores).
About the "any newbie can be deadly"-part, the big deal is this: The game will become incredibly stale if there's no way to get better at it. It's like the fade's acid rocket currently. There's (almost) no reason to learn how to use blink + claws, since spamming Acid rocket works just as good. That's not really healthy for the game, people get bored when there's no way to make progress. Just like carapace, in its current form, is not good for the game, there's no reason to learn how to be an effective skulk with celerity / silence / cloaking, since carapace is so much better and requires 0 practice. If the fade's unknown ability turns out to be: "stand still and hold your use key while looking at your hive to deal 1 damage/second to all marines", that will be really bad for the game too.
Well, to start off, I'm not one of those "elite" lerks who can take out an entire team of HAs with Umbra and Bite.... I do, however, get my share of those kind of kills, so I'm not one of those "newbie spikers" that people keep insulting here...
I voted to drop bite entirely... Yes, it makes the lerk a one-man army (One-birdthing army?). Yes, bite is a much more effective weapon. Yes, the biteless lerk has no melee capability. Good! Make it a support class!
The JP/HMG has been deemed too powerful for the price, so it's being nerfed a bit... Carapace was apparently deemed too powerful, so it was nerfed... The onos was nearly unstoppable, so it was nerfed (Paralyze removed, its only defense against jetpackers). Well, the lerk, in the right hands, is just as bad, so why should it escape the rampant nerfing?
Granted, it'll be hard to take out those resource nodes alone, but that's what skulks are for... Take out the turrets or the TF and let the melee troops clean house while you provide umbra and spore cover against any nosy marines... Play sniper when you're alone and support when you're not... Evolve silence instead of adrenaline and spike from a dark corner so the marines won't even know why they keep losing life...
Be silent! Be invisible! Be proud! Be a... weird flying bat-like thingy.... Be a 1.1 Lerk!
You keep insisting that removing the Lerks bite will also kill the challenge in this class - why?
A Lerk with the 1.1 loadout has no weapon that's capable of instantly killing an enemy - correct. It does however command over a row of tactically highly versatile weapons. The reworked spores, for example, don't kill the marines almost instantly anymore, but they hurt bad enough to make being within them undesireable. Thus, a tactically skilled Lerk can divide attacking forces by sporing at the right moment, which can have tremendous effects on the outcome of the fight. The argument that with the removal of bite, Lerk players won't be able to improve anymore is not valid, they just won't be able to use exactely the set of skills you are used to. To take up on your example - if I was a single 1.1 Lerk in a hiveroom and a JP comes in, I'd drop Umbra at the hive, jump in the air, and start occupying his attention by spiking them and dodging the fire until the cavalry arrives (OK, I'd die trying, but that's a different topic altogether.). Gorges can't easily kill JPers either, yet, I seldom see posts complaining that they're not fun or challenging.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
edited May 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+May 17 2003, 11:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ May 17 2003, 11:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That said, I have one tiny possible problem with the proposed system... What happens if a lerk passes by an unprotected (and unelectrified) res tower? Would seem they'd pretty much have to ignore it, which is a little silly, since spiking one down takes forever and a day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You COULD fix this if a lerk automatically switched to biting buildings at point blank range - ie, if you went up and put your nose to a building and triggered the spike attack, you would bite instead.
As lagger pointed out in the 'Lerk spike' thread, in exchange for the Lerk losing his main anti-building weapon, the Gorge gained one. It's adviseable to just fly by and notify one of your teammates.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+May 17 2003, 07:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ May 17 2003, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... if I was a single 1.1 Lerk in a hiveroom and a JP comes in, I'd drop Umbra at the hive, jump in the air, and start occupying his attention by spiking them and dodging the fire until the cavalry arrives (OK, I'd die trying, but that's a different topic altogether.). Gorges can't easily kill JPers either, yet, I seldom see posts complaining that they're not fun or challenging. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Waiting for the cavalry... hmmm whan an effective tactic to protect that exposed 2nd hive from the uber JP HMGs !
No OC stacking , no webs - how could the alien team prevent them from entering the hive room ?
Insufficient OC accuracy , nerfed spikes - what would occupy the JP HMG demoman's attention ?
No paralyze , no acid rockets - wth is the "cavalry" supposed to do ? The JP HMG may be the "official" counter to the Onos , but what's the counter to that ?
So the aliens are supposed to immediately catch the JPers when they land , or keep shooting pathetic spores/spikes until the comm runs out of ressource medspamming. Great , it's good to see how much strategies evolved since 1.04 !...
A 2 damage drop in spike damage is hardly a major nerf. The pts have also stated that you can fire off spikes at about 5/2 secs, which coupled with the now invisible spikes means that the lerk can be dealing fair amounts of damage. Hives have more health and heal better now as well. OC accuracy was increased as I recall as well. We make speculation here without taking into account that the patch is still fluid. The fade's 2nd hive weapon still hasn't been announced: want to bet it might be some kind of anti-jetpack ability? Umbra on the hive still helps immensely. Skulks still have leap at 2 hives, letting them reach the jps in certain places. The hmg/jp combo won't be the uber strat of 1.04 I believe, but I hardly think giving lerks bite is going to provide a counter seeing as skulks have exactly the same attack and, let's face it, quite a bit more manuverability (if you chased down a jp and bit him in mid air as a lerk, you are a god <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->).
I voted for the 1.1 combo because it really forces the lerk into a support unit. Giving him bite allows him to kill a marine in 2-4 bites, which shouldn't be possible in a support unit. My .02
I really don't think spores is needed. Spores, being so nerfed as they are to be the lerk default ability, will pretty much be useless once the marines have any kind of armor upgrade. The only, ONLY thing I see spores being used as is to eat up medpack spam. If spores is doing 2 damage a second or so, what marine would honestly care and get distracted? He'll only have to be in the cloud for about one minute to die. And one minute is a LONG time in natural-selection.
This is my proposal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly what I would vote for too. I'm not gonna vote, since my preferred option isn't there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bite, Spike, Umbra, Primal Scream.
Ravlen <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats my fav setup too
<!--QuoteBegin--rashban+May 17 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rashban @ May 17 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Judging by a lot of the comments made on these boards, the average forum-poster isn't a very good lerk. Some have suggested that the lerk is overpowered or "too well-rounded" in 1.04. If that was the case, why doesn't everyone always go lerk? Why isn't the marine strategy forum flooded with spam about "countering lerk abuse" (like the alien forum is full of "how to counter JPs?")? Is the lerk in 1.04, when played by a skilled player, more useful to the team than a skulk? Yes! That's why it costs 33 resources to go lerk! I'd say the problems with the lerk in 1.04 are as follows: Overpriced (Lerk for 33 or fade for 54, the fade is a lot more powerful) Too energy-draining flight Pointless 3-hive skill (although, in 1.04, he's not alone: Babblers, Xenocide and Bile bomb are pretty redundant as well)
The problems are _NOT_: Overpowered (JP / HMG is overpowered, Fade for 44 res was overpowered. Onos is overpowered.) Not teamwork dependant (Try killing a decent HA / HMG squad with an entire team of fades. Umbra and Web / Heal spray is nessecary) Not a support class (It is already a support class, Fade is an example of "not a support class")
Also, for mindless killing, spores are better than bite in 1.04, since you don't need to expose yourself to any counter-attacks and since it has an enormous area of effect.
I'm in no way opposed to giving Primal Scream to the lerk (which would make it even more of a support class), but if you do, remove spores instead of bite! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fully agreed. A good lerk was only a good fighter in a good persons hands. At the same time he was still always a support person already. Sure a lone lerk could kill small packs of lone rines by himself , but Has and fortified bases needed fades with Lerk SUPPORT. Protecting the hive needed lerk Support. Even with umbra a semi decent pack of rines could easily drop lerks. Early in the game the lerks are the best fighters, but when the mariens tech and use teamwork, lerks were best used as support already. For those that complain about lerks just using umbra on themselves instead, that may work against small groups but going agaist marines that use teamwork and tech up, that doesn't work. You need fades, and fades were hopeless with out lerk support. Acually you could even drop an umbra cloud for a pack of skulks and that was super deadly. Lerks were only great fighters to few, but mainly they were already support if used right. Forget spores that encourages lamer lerks who spore to kill all day. Primal scream good support. And if you ask me, without bite and umbra or spores or primal scream earlier, that is over beafing the lerk. Cause spores are deadly to a lame degree and ubra with skulks early is just unstoppable.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stakhanov+May 17 2003, 06:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ May 17 2003, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+May 17 2003, 07:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ May 17 2003, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... if I was a single 1.1 Lerk in a hiveroom and a JP comes in, I'd drop Umbra at the hive, jump in the air, and start occupying his attention by spiking them and dodging the fire until the cavalry arrives (OK, I'd die trying, but that's a different topic altogether.). Gorges can't easily kill JPers either, yet, I seldom see posts complaining that they're not fun or challenging. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Waiting for the cavalry... hmmm whan an effective tactic to protect that exposed 2nd hive from the uber JP HMGs !
No OC stacking , no webs - how could the alien team prevent them from entering the hive room ?
Insufficient OC accuracy , nerfed spikes - what would occupy the JP HMG demoman's attention ?
No paralyze , no acid rockets - wth is the "cavalry" supposed to do ? The JP HMG may be the "official" counter to the Onos , but what's the counter to that ?
So the aliens are supposed to immediately catch the JPers when they land , or keep shooting pathetic spores/spikes until the comm runs out of ressource medspamming. Great , it's good to see how much strategies evolved since 1.04 !... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You guys keep thinking in 1.04 mode. You've never played 1.1 so you have no idea how it will play out.
Comments
For example in my city there is a school system suffering from budget problems and it need a better budget. But everytime they hold a vote mostly only elderly people whose kids are already graduated go to vote, and they vote no. People who would vote yes were people such as working fathers and busy mothers.
I don't know how you can fix this problem, but I say the forumgoers pretty much accurately represent the whole population of NS, unlike in my example.
however there is one question banging around in my head, i think someone mentioned it briefly earlier. What difference does it now make that the lerk can fly? all attacks are ranged (except maybe the scream) so the flying now seems a gimmicky way of making the lerk different from the other aliens. It will still be very useful for getting around the map, but theres now no need to fly in and umbra or anything, its all just sit miles away from the fight and fire stuff in.
thats just how i see it, hopefully i'm wrong. Possibly a better thing would be to make umbra and spores be dropped like a bomb(or rather like the bilebomb, but taking into account your current motion[is this possible?]), so if you're flying fast and high, you can still get it a fair way, if you're on the floor or not moving much it goes off quite near, sort of like umbra does now. this might be over doing it but it was just my thought on a potential down point.
To take another members example up - which else class can dodge the fire of three jetpackers and at the same time return fire?
Twex, I agree, but what do you suggest? Resolving the IPs of everyone who downloaded NS and sending mails? I've already seen multiple fansites linking to the poll.
I was simply trying to dispell the common myth that a game forum can accurately represent the whole game population. Only a certain demographic bothers to become a member here, mainly social, talkative and authoritarian people (who coincidentally will never disagree with any decision a higher-up, in this case Flayra, makes), whereas both the competitive and the newbish players are underrepresented, as the type of discussion going on here does not interest them. Of course it is possible to argue that their opinion does not matter in a design decision for that very reason. That would not be democratic though.
While I agree again, art, and gamedesign is in a way art, is just not democratic. You can't paint a picture, write a book, or make music based on popular opinion - or better, you can, but the result is what we get when tuning in to MTV.
Every favored object is a found object - thus, even this poll (and note that it's apparently resulting in favor of the option I voted for) can be at its best a hint to a descision, it can't lead to a definite descision.
And in that framework, a sufficiently big group, which is presented by this community, is as good as any other.
Overpriced (Lerk for 33 or fade for 54, the fade is a lot more powerful)
Too energy-draining flight
Pointless 3-hive skill (although, in 1.04, he's not alone: Babblers, Xenocide and Bile bomb are pretty redundant as well)
The problems are _NOT_:
Overpowered (JP / HMG is overpowered, Fade for 44 res was overpowered. Onos is overpowered.)
Not teamwork dependant (Try killing a decent HA / HMG squad with an entire team of fades. Umbra and Web / Heal spray is nessecary)
Not a support class (It is already a support class, Fade is an example of "not a support class")
Also, for mindless killing, spores are better than bite in 1.04, since you don't need to expose yourself to any counter-attacks and since it has an enormous area of effect.
I'm in no way opposed to giving Primal Scream to the lerk (which would make it even more of a support class), but if you do, remove spores instead of bite!
not sure why it was removed but i think it was because it was too deadly.
I was simply trying to dispell the common myth that a game forum can accurately represent the whole game population. Only a certain demographic bothers to become a member here, mainly social, talkative and authoritarian people (who coincidentally will never disagree with any decision a higher-up, in this case Flayra, makes), whereas both the competitive and the newbish players are underrepresented, as the type of discussion going on here does not interest them. Of course it is possible to argue that their opinion does not matter in a design decision for that very reason. That would not be democratic though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm if you don't mind my saying, you're pulling conclusions out of thin air.
I agree it might not be representative but then there is absoluteley no way any of us would know.
We have absolutely no idea what kind of a demographic registeres all we can do is guess.
Since we can't make any safe assumptions on the nature of individuals taking part we must assume that the
actors are choosen trough simple random selection. And simple random selection is probably the best way to select actors
to take part in this particular poll, in which case we must assume that it is indeed representative.
Since any social science student will tell you simple random selection is probably the safest selection
procedure for a questionnaire.
also one problem, the vote says:
bite, spike, spores, umbra (1.04) does that mean as umbra hive 3 or is it just not put at the right place?
in conclusion, my preferred option is the one that has been presented, removing the spores, but keeping both spikes and bite.
Now, most of you may be thinking "But I use spike to harass marine structures all the time!" But how often do you come across a lone resource node, and spike it to death? No, you *bite* it, because biting just does exponentially more damage per lost energy than spores do. If you remove bite, you just reduce the lerk to a flying rat that can't defend itself to save its life (literally), or kill any lone marine structures it finds without help.
Have you guys ever considered the psycological effect removing bite may cause? I don't know about you, but as an alien, I want to feel like I have a fair chance of killing any marine that gets in my path. As a lerk in 1.1 what can I do...flap around wildly and gas the marine, HOPING that in the 10 seconds that the spikes/spores take to kill him that I won't be shot to bits? And if I really am this unable to defend myself without a fade or skulk buddy, what's the point of having flight? Why can I get places FASTER than my friends if I need them to stand a chance of living? Why, as Joe NS player, would I want to evolve to a lerk when I could barely get any kills? I'd be more effective if I stayed a skulk!
The problem here is that you're going to be asking people to evolve into something weaker than their original class, without it really being *integral* to the team as is the gorge (I've seen teams of Fades tear down marine bases without umbra). Right now, you barely have people go lerk for just that reason - most save for fades instead. The only real incentive right now - and that incentive is obviously already to a small base - is that, with enough skill, the lerk and his bite can be even more lethal than the skulk and sometimes even the fade.
I honestly think this change would be similar to removing the scout's crowbar in TFC. I know that, when I played that game years ago, I could use the scout and his crowbar to run circles around Heavy-Weapons Guys, hit them in the back dozens of times, and kil them. Was the scout intended to be a HWG killing machine? No! Can he be one? Yes! Removing the crowbar and making the scout a single-minded flag capturing machine would make the class boring, and it's doubtful many would play as it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
You guys just need to recognize that, in order to get players to play a class that is statistically weaker than the base skulk, you need to provide some skill factor. A newbie lerk, with spikes, umbra, and primal scream (honestly, I find spores kind of useless...) can get the job done as a support class, which was the original intention. A skiled lerk, however, should be able to perform support functions AND kill a few marines in the process. Otherwise, there's just no fun in or reason for evolving to the lerk.
one way to make it so that skill plays a less part is to make it so our aim is controlled more by bot-code. for example make randomization cones that increase on all weapons and the projectiles go in totally random directions with no pattern that expert players can compensate for and make those cones increase when we move, rotate, are being shot at, when we are looking in the dark, when we are looking at bright lights, when we are standing near a chasm, when we are surrounded by the enemy. basically everything to simulate fear and nervousness or bad eyesight rather than letting the players own personal emotions and other real-life attributes determine that. so basically all the code you might use if you were coding the AI for a bot to make it seem more human-like. even without this code human player's aim gets worse in these situations yet some programmers feel the need to add this bot code and it just pisses me off. no more jumping from one outstretched plank to another while turning to the side and shooting 3 players in the head and then landing and getting to safety. there will be no more of trying to do those incredible things that take lots of skill and get admiration from other players.
i guess another way to make skill play less of a part is to make weapons easy to fire and that have huge uniform areas of effect like the spore. the spore is instant hit and not affected by gravity and has a huge uniform area of effect it seems. i'd prefer to have spore be dropped like a bomb, so it will be affected by gravity and it's velocity will be the same as the lerk when it is released just like a real bomb dropped from an airplane. yes it is possible to have the projectiles be affected by the players velocity because currently the bile bomb and grenade are like that. however if this change is made i think the damage should be much higher and the damage should be higher at the point of impact and taper off around that point.
However, the new changes may make the lerk fill a role very different from either the support of attack role: the stealth attacker. If spikes are implemented without tracers, and spores still allow cloaking to continue, a silenced and cloaked lerk could be very annoying for the marines.
Anything that promotes teamwork is a good idea.
For the last damn time: The fact that someone isn't as good as you are at the game doesn't make his or her opinion less justified. Most people in here have been around for sufficiently long to grasp the game and play it good enough to have fun with it - and with this, they are entitled to their opinion, as are <i>you</i>, for exactely the same reason.
Stop belittling each other.
My opinions (and yes, I've played the game a lot):
Lerks need bite (against normal marines and marine structures)
Lerks need spikes (to kill JPers, to kill important structures at long ranges (killing TFs from dark corners <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Lerks need umbra (actually, ALIENS need umbra vs. good marines. This skill, like parasite, web and healing spray, is vital to the alien team)
Lerks need neither Spores nor Primal scream, but the alien team needs primal scream more than they need spores, so spores should be leaving.
Besides, playing lerk without bite seems very boring. Nothing in this game is as fun / rewarding / thrilling as killing a JP/HMGer in mid-air with a well-timed bite. Very few things are as fun as charging a marine through a long corridor and bite his head off. Standing still and using all your energy to just provide umbra and primal scream for your team sounds awfully dull... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude I entirely disagree about you. Good lerks are the ones that use umbra to protect the fades or hives, not the ones that kill marines with umbra+bite. You say any newbie can be deadly with spores. I say whats the big deal? You want to say at the end of the game something like "Noob lerks, I have more kills with bite than you with spores". You do realize that 1.1 will no longer have a scoreboard, and lerk was always intended to be a support class, not a marine killer. Never.
Yet, I vote for no bite. Why? Because it's too insanely good now. Even (perhaps especially) in match situations, a lerk on silent flyby bite mode can get 2 marines and be gone before they can get more than a few bullets in. The only time spikes are useful now are in hitting bases such as powersilo (rafters!). Umbra, while fine for support, turns the lerk's best option into umbraing and then GOING IN AND BITING THEMSELVES!
This is not okay. The lerk should be a support role, and I vote all the more for this option knowing that the people who use the lerk as a fighter class (including me!) will have to support. I like support, and I do so as much as possible, but when it comes down to it, I get **** and go in and bite them all to death instead (though I bite right off in scrims/matches). Just about the only thing remotely afraid of a lerk is a heavy armor, but even then umbra is very effective in screwing them over (and then you throw in bite). A lerk with spikes, spores, umbra, and primal scream (screech?) will still be effective, just not alone. Umbra is very helpful, spores will still manage to be useful when "sieging" (term used loosely) marine bases with welders hiding behind structures... And spikes provide them an opportunity to defend themselves at least a little, and to (primarily) conduct guerilla raids, quite possibly drawing the enemy out for heaviers to kill due to their greater speed. This sounds VERY balanecd, and even if the lerk ends up slightly underpowered, I'd rather have a support lerk than a dogfighter.
That said, I have one tiny possible problem with the proposed system... What happens if a lerk passes by an unprotected (and unelectrified) res tower? Would seem they'd pretty much have to ignore it, which is a little silly, since spiking one down takes forever and a day.
Ok, a JP / HMGer enters your hive room, you're a lerk in the hive room. What do you do?
a) Sit on the hive, twiddle your thumbs, use Umbra every 5th second, wait for fades to arrive
or
b) Place an umbra on the hive, take off, fly to avoid the HMG fire and try to take him down with spikes & bite
What sounds like more fun? What does more for the team?
Similary, what is more fun? Swooping over a marine at high speed and try to bite him, or sitting in a dark vent and launch a spore cloud every 3 seconds towards the marines' armory, trying to kill the armory-humpers there? I don't care about scores (if I only cared about stats, I'd play as fade), I want to have fun, and I don't want balanced and skill-dependant weapons replaced by dumbed-down weapons that require 0 aim or practice (note, this is not about spikes, it's about spores).
About the "any newbie can be deadly"-part, the big deal is this: The game will become incredibly stale if there's no way to get better at it. It's like the fade's acid rocket currently. There's (almost) no reason to learn how to use blink + claws, since spamming Acid rocket works just as good. That's not really healthy for the game, people get bored when there's no way to make progress. Just like carapace, in its current form, is not good for the game, there's no reason to learn how to be an effective skulk with celerity / silence / cloaking, since carapace is so much better and requires 0 practice. If the fade's unknown ability turns out to be: "stand still and hold your use key while looking at your hive to deal 1 damage/second to all marines", that will be really bad for the game too.
I voted to drop bite entirely... Yes, it makes the lerk a one-man army (One-birdthing army?). Yes, bite is a much more effective weapon. Yes, the biteless lerk has no melee capability. Good! Make it a support class!
The JP/HMG has been deemed too powerful for the price, so it's being nerfed a bit... Carapace was apparently deemed too powerful, so it was nerfed... The onos was nearly unstoppable, so it was nerfed (Paralyze removed, its only defense against jetpackers). Well, the lerk, in the right hands, is just as bad, so why should it escape the rampant nerfing?
Granted, it'll be hard to take out those resource nodes alone, but that's what skulks are for... Take out the turrets or the TF and let the melee troops clean house while you provide umbra and spore cover against any nosy marines... Play sniper when you're alone and support when you're not... Evolve silence instead of adrenaline and spike from a dark corner so the marines won't even know why they keep losing life...
Be silent! Be invisible! Be proud! Be a... weird flying bat-like thingy.... Be a 1.1 Lerk!
[/idiocy]
A Lerk with the 1.1 loadout has no weapon that's capable of instantly killing an enemy - correct. It does however command over a row of tactically highly versatile weapons. The reworked spores, for example, don't kill the marines almost instantly anymore, but they hurt bad enough to make being within them undesireable. Thus, a tactically skilled Lerk can divide attacking forces by sporing at the right moment, which can have tremendous effects on the outcome of the fight.
The argument that with the removal of bite, Lerk players won't be able to improve anymore is not valid, they just won't be able to use exactely the set of skills you are used to. To take up on your example - if I was a single 1.1 Lerk in a hiveroom and a JP comes in, I'd drop Umbra at the hive, jump in the air, and start occupying his attention by spiking them and dodging the fire until the cavalry arrives (OK, I'd die trying, but that's a different topic altogether.).
Gorges can't easily kill JPers either, yet, I seldom see posts complaining that they're not fun or challenging.
That said, I have one tiny possible problem with the proposed system... What happens if a lerk passes by an unprotected (and unelectrified) res tower? Would seem they'd pretty much have to ignore it, which is a little silly, since spiking one down takes forever and a day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You COULD fix this if a lerk automatically switched to biting buildings at point blank range - ie, if you went up and put your nose to a building and triggered the spike attack, you would bite instead.
Gorges can't easily kill JPers either, yet, I seldom see posts complaining that they're not fun or challenging. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Waiting for the cavalry... hmmm whan an effective tactic to protect that exposed 2nd hive from the uber JP HMGs !
No OC stacking , no webs - how could the alien team prevent them from entering the hive room ?
Insufficient OC accuracy , nerfed spikes - what would occupy the JP HMG demoman's attention ?
No paralyze , no acid rockets - wth is the "cavalry" supposed to do ? The JP HMG may be the "official" counter to the Onos , but what's the counter to that ?
So the aliens are supposed to immediately catch the JPers when they land , or keep shooting pathetic spores/spikes until the comm runs out of ressource medspamming. Great , it's good to see how much strategies evolved since 1.04 !...
We make speculation here without taking into account that the patch is still fluid. The fade's 2nd hive weapon still hasn't been announced: want to bet it might be some kind of anti-jetpack ability? Umbra on the hive still helps immensely. Skulks still have leap at 2 hives, letting them reach the jps in certain places. The hmg/jp combo won't be the uber strat of 1.04 I believe, but I hardly think giving lerks bite is going to provide a counter seeing as skulks have exactly the same attack and, let's face it, quite a bit more manuverability (if you chased down a jp and bit him in mid air as a lerk, you are a god <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->).
slot1 = bite
slot2 = spike
slot3 = umbra
slot4 = primal scream
I really don't think spores is needed. Spores, being so nerfed as they are to be the lerk default ability, will pretty much be useless once the marines have any kind of armor upgrade. The only, ONLY thing I see spores being used as is to eat up medpack spam. If spores is doing 2 damage a second or so, what marine would honestly care and get distracted? He'll only have to be in the cloud for about one minute to die. And one minute is a LONG time in natural-selection.
This is my proposal. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I would vote for too. I'm not gonna vote, since my preferred option isn't there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bite, Spike, Umbra, Primal Scream.
Ravlen <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats my fav setup too
Overpriced (Lerk for 33 or fade for 54, the fade is a lot more powerful)
Too energy-draining flight
Pointless 3-hive skill (although, in 1.04, he's not alone: Babblers, Xenocide and Bile bomb are pretty redundant as well)
The problems are _NOT_:
Overpowered (JP / HMG is overpowered, Fade for 44 res was overpowered. Onos is overpowered.)
Not teamwork dependant (Try killing a decent HA / HMG squad with an entire team of fades. Umbra and Web / Heal spray is nessecary)
Not a support class (It is already a support class, Fade is an example of "not a support class")
Also, for mindless killing, spores are better than bite in 1.04, since you don't need to expose yourself to any counter-attacks and since it has an enormous area of effect.
I'm in no way opposed to giving Primal Scream to the lerk (which would make it even more of a support class), but if you do, remove spores instead of bite! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fully agreed. A good lerk was only a good fighter in a good persons hands. At the same time he was still always a support person already. Sure a lone lerk could kill small packs of lone rines by himself , but Has and fortified bases needed fades with Lerk SUPPORT. Protecting the hive needed lerk Support. Even with umbra a semi decent pack of rines could easily drop lerks. Early in the game the lerks are the best fighters, but when the mariens tech and use teamwork, lerks were best used as support already.
For those that complain about lerks just using umbra on themselves instead, that may work against small groups but going agaist marines that use teamwork and tech up, that doesn't work. You need fades, and fades were hopeless with out lerk support. Acually you could even drop an umbra cloud for a pack of skulks and that was super deadly. Lerks were only great fighters to few, but mainly they were already support if used right.
Forget spores that encourages lamer lerks who spore to kill all day. Primal scream good support. And if you ask me, without bite and umbra or spores or primal scream earlier, that is over beafing the lerk. Cause spores are deadly to a lame degree and ubra with skulks early is just unstoppable.
Gorges can't easily kill JPers either, yet, I seldom see posts complaining that they're not fun or challenging. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Waiting for the cavalry... hmmm whan an effective tactic to protect that exposed 2nd hive from the uber JP HMGs !
No OC stacking , no webs - how could the alien team prevent them from entering the hive room ?
Insufficient OC accuracy , nerfed spikes - what would occupy the JP HMG demoman's attention ?
No paralyze , no acid rockets - wth is the "cavalry" supposed to do ? The JP HMG may be the "official" counter to the Onos , but what's the counter to that ?
So the aliens are supposed to immediately catch the JPers when they land , or keep shooting pathetic spores/spikes until the comm runs out of ressource medspamming. Great , it's good to see how much strategies evolved since 1.04 !... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys keep thinking in 1.04 mode. You've never played 1.1 so you have no idea how it will play out.