<!--QuoteBegin--TheMuffinMan+May 1 2003, 12:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheMuffinMan @ May 1 2003, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes sensory is good. But the defense chamber far outdoes it in its usefullness <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Summarises the situation admirably.
<!--QuoteBegin--NightCrawler.+Apr 29 2003, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NightCrawler. @ Apr 29 2003, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you dont want to open your mind to any advatages sensory brings. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> M.S.S IS ALIVE AND ON THESE FORUMS!!!!
After the recently released news that the Kharaa now had Sensory upgrades, the Minister for information gave this statement about the Marines:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Our initial assessment is that they will all die"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know I started this topic, and my apologies for gripping a community and having nightcrawler ripped to shreds, but bottom line, as I have awoken , is <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sensory is good, but defense far outgoes it in its usefulness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait Wait Wait.... u can get Sensories on 1st hive? or are you just talnig about 1.1, ive been a gorge b4 and tried building a sens 1st in some servers and it dont work and if it doesnt work then why are u building 3 hives with no Ds and no Movments and just putting sensories up first?
I was not "ripped to shreds" it was mearly a yes no yes no yes no yes no. This argument is made of opinion, you cannot be "ripped to shreds" in an opinion war. he belives that cloaked skulks are extremly easy to see and i belive they arent. He thinks skulks suck without carapace i dont think they do. He thinks gorges cant break marine strongholds and i belive they can. Everyones opinions are made up from their experiances and saying that i play with noobish people and that i "suck" is an opinion to. Also saying that playing on anyother server but the one he plays on means i am a noob is an opinion also.
Yep, they are. But when an opinion is wicked retarded, that person tends to lose his persuasiveness, hence no one listens to me...bottom line, D > S first, end of story.
Argue u all your want. Convince yourself as neccessary but face reality. Sens first is utmost suicide. Carapace is compulsory on players wishing to compete. (woodnt be so bad if marines didnt get lv1 and 2 attack upgrades, 3 owns with or without cara <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Cloak is nice, u can set ambushes. Great. Wont get u back a turreted hive. WOnt help u a damn. U cznt place DC in vents like CC in eclipse to aid TF killing.
IMHO carapace and adren needs to be removed from buildings upgrades as there 99% compulosry. Wanna charge primal paralyze as onos? Need adren. Wanna leap bite down res tow without pauses as skulk? Need adren. Wanna fly and fight as lerk? need adren.
Ever tried healing fades etc without adren as gorg? Need adren.
Removing adren and carapace upgrades (placing them elsewhere) will add more vairety for aliens.
thousands of ppl playing thousands of games KNOW DC first is a must. Unless u like loosing.
With hives healing being SO slow, if the marines send a couple into your base you'll have to have a gorge constantly healing the hive, otherwise you might as well say bye bye to the hive because you can't have DCs to heal it.
That's purely aside form the fact that carapace is just so much more powerful than the nearest contender. (ever tried skulking with regeneration? HAHAHA!)
Night, have fun playing with sensory, but please don't be surprised when you try servers with decent players on when it all goes horribly wrong. We're coming from the angle that many of us have tried different servers with different tactics. By the sound of it you haven't tried the playing field against different people. I may be wrong, it's not a personal attack or anything, but sensory first is *extremely* difficult to win with. Fun, but nigh on impossible against a half decent set of marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--NightCrawler.+Apr 29 2003, 01:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NightCrawler. @ Apr 29 2003, 01:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> battle gorges are used to break fortifications like when marines try to secure hives early on. Please dont act your skill level, otherwise we'll have 1 more newb than we need. yes once marines have seiges the battle gorge technique will not be effective. BUT you fail to realize that commanders never use seige in their early establishments. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG I just read this...
The main point is that you don't have the resources to battle gorge early enough. Marines don't just wait in their base until everything is looking how they want it. As soon as the game starts, there'll be some running off to scout out your hive, set up a subbase in another hive. Marines OWN skulks before carapace, and with the advantage that you don't know where they are by the time you get to their base, cloaking loses all of the benefits that you've stated it has.
Marines will be building structures outside their base before you get the first res tower up, that's because at the start of the game a marine can kill a skulk in 9 bullets, and without all the skulks splitting up to cover the whole map, you've no idea where the marines will be setting up, hence you can't lay a trap for them!!! At this point, you might have a gorge, but he's probably got less than 10 res and only getting 2 per tick, so how precisely are you going to battle gorge them out of wherever they are?
It's the EARLY res points marines get that will set them off at a high rate of teching. This will mean level 3 guns before you imagine it, and heavy weapons, armour and jetpacks very soon too. The early game skulks have to work together to try to oust the marines from their res holding positions and to pressure their base to try to set the marines back in res until they can get carapace (when they will be able to take marines on, and turrets, with relative ease.
Sad that it's really the only viable option, but hey we're all waiting expectantly for 1.1 when sensory first will be a REALLY fun game (with options of winning) instead of a mildly amusing short stroll in the park before being hacked up by some chainsaw wielding lunatic.
all you need is 2 oc's when you attack a marine base or outpost. The oc take all the sentry damage if you do it right. the towers add confusion and tanking ability that early skulks with cloaking need. AN ultra evil thing to do is have your skulks rush in and run around while you go striaght for the phase gate and place an oc on it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1: It does not provide total invisibility. A sharp eye can pick you out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. indeed it doesnt probived complete invisibility. but i have yet to find any marine in a game that could see me when i cloaked in the middle of a room. it is not easy to see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a subjective observation and not an argument, just because you don't believe you haven't been spotted by a marine, doesn't mean you haven't been, nor does it mean that no marines can pick you out. you'd have to back this up by showing that all marines you have played with are also at least average.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2: As soon as the marines realise you are using cloaking, the commander will scan areas before the marines move in. Therefore, cloaking only works on stupid commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 2. 3 res for a scan is alot in early game. a good commander will not scan at all. hell get armor and wepon upgrades and tell his marines to watch their backs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because the comms you play with tries this doesn't mean that they are good comms. Your argument is flawed. 3 res is not a lot. Even if it was, that doesn't mean that a comm using it to assist his team is a not a good comm. Armor and weapon upgrades costs 50 for the research station + 20 for each of the first upgrades, etc. 3 res seems to be a lot cheaper.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: Ambushing marines with cloaking still relies on you finding a good spot. Most of the time, it's easy to find a good spot to ambush from without cloaking! Seriously, an ambush doesn't depend on you being invisible. Carapace and DCs first doesn't stop you from ambushing, whereas cloaking and SCs do stop you from normal combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 3.cloaking does not require you to find a good spot it is quite effective to hide in the middle of a room or in the top corner of one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've failed to adress the point. I'll reiterate. You can ambush just as well without cloaking if you hide well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4: Cloaking does not work while you move. Therefore, it does not help you in combat. It doesn't make a difference if you can use cloaking to ambush successfully if you don't have the armour to take down your target.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 4. the survivability of a skulk depends less on his life and more on the skill the skulk has to strafe. I am an excelent shot, but i have come agianst un carapaced skulk that could charge you down a straight hall way and strafe in a way that you couldnt hit him once. ive come to think that the survivability depends on marine firing patterns and skulk strafe patterns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you fail to address the point. Does or doesn't cloaking help you while you're moving?
If you're an excellent shot, that skulk would be dead. This is also a subjective statement and not a valid argument. Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean that the rest of the world can't, as long as it is within the ruleset. You also claim that a skulks chance of survival does not depend on his health and ability to take damage, which is false. If skulk A has less hp and takes more damage than skulk B, skulk A will die first, all other things being equal. QED.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5: Because cloaking does not help you in combat and does not work on turrets, it does not help you destroy marine outposts. It offers no advantage to ATTACK, only to defend. No battle is ever won by remaining on the defensive all the time. If you cannot stop marines from securing resource nodes, if you cannot stop them from setting up forward bases and you cannot stop them from securing hives you will lose. No question. Cloaking does nothing to help you retake captured locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 5. you only need 1 sens chamber in the beggining. you should start by camping the marine spawn while your gorge uses that extra 32 res to set up a mini wall of lame for 56 res you can put 4 OC's in the hive you wish to take next. and thats only if your skulks arent the best. otherwise you could build about 2 extra res nodes. if you want to take out a base and you got some time then get cloaking on a skulk or lerk or what ever then you can cloak next to a turret and bite cloak bite cloak bite cloak. take out the turrets 1 by one. also offencive gorging is much much more important in this because you can run to the middle of a base as a gorge cloak and then start building a chamber ive taken out whole bases with just a single gorge with cloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What 32 extra res? And how can you set up a mini-wall of lame for 56 res when you have 32? I do gorge sometimes and I prefer to do without OC's early on. I trust my skulks to keep the marines off my back. While your gorge are building sensory and attempting to build a WoL at the enemy outpost, I've spent that time capping 3 res nodes, built two def towers in the new hive and be well on the way for the second hive before your gorge would have managed to set up that WoL against a half-decent team of marines.
bite, cloak, bite, cloak.... This will take twice as long, at least, to kill a structure, giving marines more than enough time to get to wherever you are.
And the fact that you've taken out a whole base with a single gorge with cloak makes me seriously doubt the skills of the marines you're claiming are the best of the best.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6: The sensory chamber's built-in feature of reporting enemy incursions pales into insignificance compared to the defense chamber's healing properties. Anyway, skulks have parasite right from the first hive. A competant team of skulks should be able to track the movements of the marines using parasite without the need for SCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 6.everyone knows that "ENEMY IS APROCHING" is stupid kind of. although once you learn the radius of detection a sens chamber has you know exactly were marine "could" be and move accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, the fact that as long as the sens chamber is detecting the marine he'll be on the hive sight doesn't matter. The important thing is knowing the radius?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7: As with the above point, sensory chambers will not help heal the hive if it is being attacked. Nor will they provide ANY benefit to offense chambers in a Wall of Lame. Again, this will change in 1.1 - time will tell whether it will be effective or not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 7. i dont know if youve heard of this wonderfull ablity called healing spray?? no?? ok then let me explain what healing spray is. it heals 4-5 times faster than any defence chamber. use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many gorges would you want on that team? A gorge can't be everywhere, and once a marine spots the gorge, how long will he live, pray tell?
<!--QuoteBegin---= Vicious =- Eclipse+Apr 30 2003, 02:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-= Vicious =- Eclipse @ Apr 30 2003, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Eh...sensory first is just plain fun, throw it up every now and then it adds something to your alien game.
Defense gets old and boring, despite all its nice advantages its just less <i>FUN</i> compared to sensory.
Thats the primary reason theres people who like sensory first, its fun being invisible. Plain and simple. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have a short statement I have to say here.
You are addressing, that sensory first is fun. But you have to face the fact that not everyone is in a "fun" mood.
Some may want to train, some may want to play old-skool and some may just want to win for christ's sake.
You may make the game fun for yourself if you start with sensory. But the fact is, you may be the only one laughing.
Just imagine you having fun camping in an useless place while everyone else is cursing your name and just being slightly mad at you.
Nightcrawler speaks of how it's only a question of opinion and playing style, yet he fails to answer my direct questions concerning frequently encountered in-game scenarios. How can we come to see the "advantages" of sensory first when he does not give us good pointers on how to effectively counter marine rushes, tech rushes and hive lockdowns and can only come up with dubious tactics that solely depend on marines being incompetent or messing up?
The 2 OC things while assaulting is particularly laughable. A battle gorge with no carapace and no nearby healing (remember, no DCs!) is a dead gorge. He'll easily die before the first OC is complete. Assuming he does manage to put up 2 OCs, they will not be the perfect damage soakers as sentries will always target a skulk attacking them, not to mention the marines that will most certainly be around.
Assuming the above would work, which is highly doubtful if not outright deniable, what role does cloaking play in it? None! Doesn't he realize he must think up weak and very risky counters to common marine strategies only because he decided not to get DCs for no reason whatsoever?
All he does is dodge, evade, ignore, and gives blatantly laughable advice. Me thinks he's just a troll.
Yep im a troll thats why i make personal attack constatly insult poeples intellegince in every post and i also question their skill and the skill of the people they play with at any oportunity that arises.
Kazyras doesnt want to try to understand he doesnt want to think. Im done responding to this thread because no matter how constructive i could possible make a post kazyra will just act like he has no idea what i am talking about.
if ignorance is bliss then kazyras must be the happiest person on earth.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
*shrugs* we just speak from experience. The clanners have, by now, tried out every combination possible, and have found that DCs win the most games, regardless of the fun factor (yes, I love playing sensory first when having fun). The point is YES all of your tactics are valid, and you CAN win with senosry. It could work, but it is just a heck of a lot EASIER with DCs. We're not saying your tactics won't work, but we think it's stupid to take the harder route (Unless you just wanna have fun.)
And I wasn't taling about cargo as the 3 res nodes location. On ALL maps there are at least 2 locations that are either: 1. Choke points 2. Many res nodes location 3. Hive siege location 4. Any combination of the above
A good comm just gets 2 of those locations and it is gg if marines and aliens are evenly matched. No need to make that situation even more difficult by making sensory.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+Apr 26 2003, 05:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ Apr 26 2003, 05:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sensory works for the first 2 minutes. Then when the marines realize you're using sensory, you lose.
They'll get an observatory up and send a big squad toward your hive, often with a few shotguns tossed in. The comm will scan every room the marines enter, immediately uncloaking all skulks and rendering your upgrade useless. The comm can afford to do this (even though he shouldn't have to do it more than 5 times, for a total of 15 res) because he knows the rush will win the game or cripple the aliens beyond recovery (like killing the gorge multiple time and knifing down their only RT.)
The marines will push their way forward to your hive, quite quickly and easily I might add due to the marines' complete ownage of early skulks, and then they'll be in a defensive position VERY uncomfortably close to your hive (read: within siege range) that you will HAVE to assault. This is assuming they won't just waltz into the hive room and start spawn camping and shooting at the hive, which will heal itself at a pathetic 2 HP per sec since you didn't get DCs. Problem is, you chose the absolute worst upgrade path for assaulting. Going cloak assumes that your team will manage to NEVER let a single marine get anywhere close to your hive. I'm sorry to say, but this is living in a fantasy world. It WILL happen unless the aliens utterly outclass the marines, and it will happen soon. Then you're screwed.
Assuming the aliens somehow manage to get a second hive up (newbie marines most likely), you'll still be disadvantaged compared to the regular DMS build order. If you pick defense, your lerks will be very inefficient due to no adrenaline and you'll either have castrated acid rocket spamming fades, or slow melee fades with no celerity. If you go movement, you'll have offensive power alright, but next to no survivability in combat. Lose/lose situation. Cloaking won't compensate for any of these deficiencies as the marines will most certainly have motion tracking by then.
Besides, what the hell is so good about cloak for ambushing anyway? Unless you're standing directly in the marines' path, you'll get next to no surprise effect. As soon as you move, you'll uncloak with a BIG audio cue (the uncloaking sound), then you'll just be a plain old regular uncarapaced skulk with no celerity -- in other words, no upgrades to help you live longer in battle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 2 minuits with 2 shotgun men?? ud have to save up ur res so i think ur wrong man they wudent lose i n2 mins
I meant it will work for the first 2 minutes when marines might still be wondering why they die when they're all going their own way when gorge hunting/scouting for the comm. Then one of them will notice the uncloaking sound and say "they went sensory first!" That is when the aliens are screwed, when the marines realize the aliens have cloaking and start planning and acting in consequence. I didn't mean to say they would lose within 2 minutes.
And nightcrawler, insulting and flaming isn't trolling, it's just that: insulting and flaming. Trolling is posting outrageous/stupid/ridiculous stuff solely to provoke a cascade of negative responses. With your complete dismissal of my VERY VALID questions asking how cloaking can help in countering THREE HIGHLY COMMON MARINE TACTICS (hive rush, fast teching, 2 hive lockdown) and your continued repetitions of "you all don't want to see the advantages that sensory provides" when you only stated ONE such advantage and we demonstrated that it wasn't all that great and useful after all, what I am supposed to think?
You post something that goes against the common sense and experience of people that at all try playing competitively: sensory first is good. Then when you were told that your upgrade path is easily 100% negated by a simple marine ability, you answer with the ridiculous statement of "good comms don't scan" (Good comms don't do stuff that counters your upgrade path? You don't say! I guess good comms don't get weapon upgrades to diminish the advantage of carapace either!), you give a half-assed/laughable counter to a single of the many points against your position (battle gorging with no defense upgrades to offensive tower with 2 OCs and no DCs with the support of skulks with no carapace is going to liberate a turreted/mined/phased hive outpost manned by at least 1 marine? Do you underestimate the marines this much, or are they really that bad?) and you conveniently ignore the rest. You also attacked the skill and credibility of top clans (They don't know the power of leap? LOL) and you keep singing that it's all a matter of opinions so therefore your position is automatically as valid as any other and unattackable, game analysis, experience, complete lack of arguments in your favor and plain old common sense be damned. This is blatant trolling in many people's book, people used to gaming message boards.
Assuming that your battle gorging example would work against half decent marines (it won't, at all, but let's assume for an instant that it will) you still haven't answered the 2 following questions:
- How does sensory first help AT ALL against a tech rush? - How does sensory first help AT ALL in surviving an early marine rush when the comm knows how to scan?
BTW, you do realize that with your ways of argumenting, we could validate any and all strategy for every single game in existence, even the spectacularly crappy ones from not moving your paddle in Pong to militia rushing in Warcraft 3?
I have won in most games where sensory was built first. Then again, I usually only try to convinve gorge to build sensory if I know we got good aliens. My only losts so far is when the entire team just gives up aand half f4s and we get outnumbered or if the team is just retarded. Like really retarded. Or that one time the gorge build movment second. We got slaughtered there too.
All you moogs who sit there and just spew endless streams of negative invective are just absolutely laughable. Yeah you are right that D is the "best" upgrade for 1.04 but GOD! How demeaning, negative, and generally "I'm so ****ing smart" can you be?
For crying out loud quit flaming and trying to demonstrate your superiority. Some people like sensory first because it's fun. I'm one of them, although I like D first if I'm really intent on winning. Fine. Let those who want to explore the sensory strategy do so on a forum without you constantly, and in great detail, going on about how you are GOD and they are N00Bs and anyone who gets sensory is retarded, untalented, ignorant, etc. They are not, they just think differently from you. Last I checked none of you had a Nobel Prize for Gorging, or a Gold Medal in Skulking.
You smug a***oles make me sick sometimes. Let people play the game and have fun.
wipeout, it looks like you were so eager to post your self righteous drivel that you didn't pay attention to what was going on.
Nobody is calling anyone stupid for LIKING getting sensory first or finding it MORE FUN. If you read the first post in this thread, you'll see that the thread starter essentially said that getting sensory first is the best thing to do, which is flat out wrong. He was told and explained as much and he eventually BACKED DOWN on his affirmation.
Now, take a look at nightcrawler, he still hasn't backed down. He still claims that sensory first is just as good if not better then defense first. He was flooded with a deluge of very valid arguments and given ample, credible explanations on why cloaking won't work as advertized on good marines. He flat out ignored most of it and gave nearly-trolling answers (I'm still not sure if he's serious or not) to a select few.
It's a debate, wipeout, a debate that nightcrawler is losing badly, yet he still maintains his "you're all too blind to see it" attitude (who's the real one acting superior and treating the others like noobs, I wonder?) and still refuses to answer my questions on how sensory first will help at all in surviving and countering 2 highly common marine tactics (fast tech, hive rush with scanning to cancel cloaking.)
adj : limited to or caring only about yourself and your own needs<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I gave ample general arguments on how inffecient cloaking is early game, general guidelines for marines to easily defeat it, and only one concrete example in which I participated to illustrate my point. I and many others have use non self-referential arguments, such has the extreme fragility of early game alien lifeforms lacking carapace, the overall extreme usefulness of passively healing structures (for hive defense, healing OCs, forward healing positions for harrassing/assaulting skulks), the drawbacks of cloaking (doesn't help at all in combat, you have to skip carapace to get it, won't help you attack marine positions, noticeable uncloaking sound that kills any surprise ambush advantage you might have had unless the marines walk directly into your teeth, easily canceled by scanning and motion tracking) and the uselessness of the sensory chamber compared to the defense chamber.
Meanwhile you said stuff like "I don't care how good a marine you are, if I have cloaking I will kill you" and "cloaking works for me."
...
Anyhow...
I'm asking -you- to explain how going sensory first will help survive/counter/defeat the following 2 common marine tactics:
- Hive rush with scanning (once they figure you went sensory) - Tech rush, in particular the kind where the marines cap 1 or 2 nearby nodes as soon as the game starts and tech straight to JP/HMG while holding those nodes + base with marines and perhaps a few mines, and a rambo or two to keep you on your toes and kill your gorge
As for the servers I play on:
- CHI MAYHEM NS 205.243.147.200:27015
I'm almost always there. If not:
- Chitown Freeze NS v1.04 12.107.109.124:27015 - I also used to play on the clan [ReD] and [SoM] servers, but not very much anymore. You might still catch on either their server once in a great while.
My moniker is [Taco]Kaz.
Piece of advice, I strongly discourage getting sensory first on these servers without the approval of the entire alien team first.
This thread began by a nice fellow or madam who discovered that going sensory first owned his friends on a LAN. He claimed it *could win you the game in under 10 minutes based* on the idea that (1) cloaking skulks will be strong early, marines will not be able to hit them, putting marines on the defensive. He also said it would (2) help gorges build in complete safety as marines cannot see the health of a structure from far away.
The response to this was that the marines will realize very quickly that the aliens have gone "sensory first" after they decloak at all within audible range of a marine. Once the marines know this, the marines will get an observatory and will be able to proceed, in squads, aided by scans, with the knowledge that the aliens are going to have no carapace, to cripple whatever the aliens have in a short time. The alien hive, also, will have no defensive chambers to heal it.
In addition, it was noted that even if the aliens get a second hive after going "sensory first", they are still crippled, as they will now have to choose between having adrenal available or finally making carapace available. No adrenaline means very inefficient lerks and fades. No carapace this late in the game means the marines should be killing aliens quite easily.
Most significantly, the usefulness of cloaking early on itself is called into question. Unless you're directly in the path of a marine, they aren't seeing you anyways. Skulks ambush players all the time in this phase of the game without cloak. How much of an advantage will cloak really give? When you decloak you make a loud and notable sound saying both "an enemy nearby as just moved out of cloak" and "we don't have carapace and even at hive 2 we are not going to have either carapace or adrenal!", news that any decent commander should know what to do with.
Responses to these comments said to "build an offensive chamber near a resource tower and then you have a great ability early on." This seems quite juxtaposed to the former remarks, with no explanation given. This person also talks about lerks using umbra and gorges healing endlessly at hive 2.
In response to the above ridiculous comments, it was pointed out that an offensive chamber dies quite easily with no defensive chambers to heal it, that going sensory and then movement is going to be widely vulnerable to even a single grenade launcher.
Finally, someone pointed out the alleged combat advantage of cloak. Someone said that cloak lets them kill three marines and take no damage using leap.
The response:
A commander will scan ahead of his marines using the observatory he got after the marines discovered that the aliens had gone "sensory first", that cloaking is not good to ambush because of the sound it makes, how you can't stand in direct view of marines anyways because 90% cloak is still visible to most marines, effectively requiring ambushes that would go the same if the aliens didn't even have cloak at all.
In other words, carapace is better for ambushing than cloak. Cloak is only useful with silence, which requires another hive, therefore cloak at hive 1 is useless. Having only cloak early on does nothing to help aliens assault, a situation that marines will surely force once they discover that the aliens are decloaking (the sound) and 90% invisible while camping AND marines can scan their way to anywhere making an assault, facing only these carapaceless skulks, quite likely to succeed.
Leap, of course, requires a second hive and shouldn't be able to kill marines very well when you have no carapace and the marines have upgrades (by second hive, assuming they can even get one, which they can't, according to this response).
Sensory first means no defensive chambers, which means no hive healing, no defensive positions, useless offensive chambers, and no help whatsoever assaulting.
"Cloaking first is a very effective strategy." "70% of the games I played sensory first aliens won."
Someone noted that silence is better for skulks than cloaking because mobility is more important for skulks and can actually get a free bite. Another noted that cloaked lerks are about as useful as cloaked skulks, and that lerks are better off with adrenaline or carapace than cloak.
After all of this, NIGHTCRAWLER SAYS:
"they gave no valid points as to why sensory first wont work. they just spouted their noobish non-wisdom and expect everyone to accept it as fact." "sesory first is valid if you have a team of non retards/noobs. ive already said all of this in other posts. read them"
With a sensory you can't attack, it's simple as that. All it takes is lvl1 weapons and one marine with a better than avarage shot to hold the marine base or a hive location against any attacks from non cara skulks without leap. So if you want to use sens first you have to be absolutely sure that you can hold two hive positions. And because of this the only map were I would even consider build sens first while being sober is caged. If the marines secure both hive locations it's automatically game over for the aliens. Also the moment the marines get motiontracking cloaking becomes mostly useless. The moment marines get lvl2 weapons and lvl 1 armor skulks have no chances 1on1 against an avarage skilled marine (against a skilled marine they lose their chances the moment the marine gets lvl1 weapons and against an elite marine, like me <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> , they never have a chance)
So if the marine comm knows his/her job well, he/she will make a fast rescap, MT, send men to guard the hive position and finish the job with a nice HA + welder rush just to show that the aliens never had a chance to win.
- HIVE RUSH:a proprly done hive rush will be done before you get any chambers up, but for the sake of argument lets just say that we have 3 of each type of chamber in 2 senarios.
1. sensory 1st: sensory will not help you do anything agianst a comm that scans constantly AKA if properly done your screwed. the only thing you can hope for is a misplaced scan or the marines not finding out that you have cloaking till its to late. If the marines do not know that you have cloaking by time the rush is under way then you will crush the rush but if not then its GG. ive seen good players do rushes flawlessly sometimes and other times with the same players they fail miserably.
2. defence 1st: defence would allow carapaced skulks to get an extra 1-2 seconds of life in a firefight and the healing from the chambers would allow the lucky skulks that got away to run back and heal. Agian ive seen carapaced skulks squash a rush and other times completly get whiped.
So in conclusion to this point defence would be best mainly because of the scanning and the extra seconds it provides. Some times skill wins out and others BS is the soup of the round.
-Tech rush: A properly done tech rush will be done by time you have 2/3 chambers up Because of the recycleing of the marine buidlings, but for the sake of argument lets say you have all 3 for 2 senarios.
1. sensory 1st: you screwed because the marines will just mine their bases up and 1-2 res nodes. If you feel lucky go camp were you think a jp will pass by and try to bring him down. theres nothing you can do but have everyone go lerk and hope for the best.
2. Defence 1st: your slightly less screwed because you can atleast take 1 mine before you die. The only thing you can do is put pressure on the marines and have everyone go lerk and hope for the best.
So in conclusion you will lose agianst a properly done tech rush no matter what chamber you go first. There are several tech rush stratiges that involve the recycling of buildings to speed up the process of getting to HMG JP. A skulk wont get a good Jper and skulks cant fly soo GG no RE
Comments
Summarises the situation admirably.
M.S.S IS ALIVE AND ON THESE FORUMS!!!!
After the recently released news that the Kharaa now had Sensory upgrades, the Minister for information gave this statement about the Marines:
<img src='http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Our initial assessment is that they will all die"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Fin.</span>
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
oh yea, and
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> Fin. </span>
P.S. Nightcrawler, I admire your passion, but it's time to let go budday... Just fair warning
/me applies flame shield...
Cloak is nice, u can set ambushes. Great. Wont get u back a turreted hive. WOnt help u a damn. U cznt place DC in vents like CC in eclipse to aid TF killing.
IMHO carapace and adren needs to be removed from buildings upgrades as there 99% compulosry. Wanna charge primal paralyze as onos? Need adren.
Wanna leap bite down res tow without pauses as skulk? Need adren.
Wanna fly and fight as lerk? need adren.
Ever tried healing fades etc without adren as gorg? Need adren.
Removing adren and carapace upgrades (placing them elsewhere) will add more vairety for aliens.
thousands of ppl playing thousands of games KNOW DC first is a must. Unless u like loosing.
That's purely aside form the fact that carapace is just so much more powerful than the nearest contender. (ever tried skulking with regeneration? HAHAHA!)
Night, have fun playing with sensory, but please don't be surprised when you try servers with decent players on when it all goes horribly wrong. We're coming from the angle that many of us have tried different servers with different tactics. By the sound of it you haven't tried the playing field against different people. I may be wrong, it's not a personal attack or anything, but sensory first is *extremely* difficult to win with. Fun, but nigh on impossible against a half decent set of marines.
Roo
OMG I just read this...
The main point is that you don't have the resources to battle gorge early enough. Marines don't just wait in their base until everything is looking how they want it. As soon as the game starts, there'll be some running off to scout out your hive, set up a subbase in another hive. Marines OWN skulks before carapace, and with the advantage that you don't know where they are by the time you get to their base, cloaking loses all of the benefits that you've stated it has.
Marines will be building structures outside their base before you get the first res tower up, that's because at the start of the game a marine can kill a skulk in 9 bullets, and without all the skulks splitting up to cover the whole map, you've no idea where the marines will be setting up, hence you can't lay a trap for them!!! At this point, you might have a gorge, but he's probably got less than 10 res and only getting 2 per tick, so how precisely are you going to battle gorge them out of wherever they are?
It's the EARLY res points marines get that will set them off at a high rate of teching. This will mean level 3 guns before you imagine it, and heavy weapons, armour and jetpacks very soon too. The early game skulks have to work together to try to oust the marines from their res holding positions and to pressure their base to try to set the marines back in res until they can get carapace (when they will be able to take marines on, and turrets, with relative ease.
Sad that it's really the only viable option, but hey we're all waiting expectantly for 1.1 when sensory first will be a REALLY fun game (with options of winning) instead of a mildly amusing short stroll in the park before being hacked up by some chainsaw wielding lunatic.
Roo
1. indeed it doesnt probived complete invisibility. but i have yet to find any marine in a game that could see me when i cloaked in the middle of a room. it is not easy to see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a subjective observation and not an argument, just because you don't believe you haven't been spotted by a marine, doesn't mean you haven't been, nor does it mean that no marines can pick you out. you'd have to back this up by showing that all marines you have played with are also at least average.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2: As soon as the marines realise you are using cloaking, the commander will scan areas before the marines move in. Therefore, cloaking only works on stupid commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2. 3 res for a scan is alot in early game. a good commander will not scan at all. hell get armor and wepon upgrades and tell his marines to watch their backs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because the comms you play with tries this doesn't mean that they are good comms. Your argument is flawed. 3 res is not a lot. Even if it was, that doesn't mean that a comm using it to assist his team is a not a good comm. Armor and weapon upgrades costs 50 for the research station + 20 for each of the first upgrades, etc. 3 res seems to be a lot cheaper.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: Ambushing marines with cloaking still relies on you finding a good spot. Most of the time, it's easy to find a good spot to ambush from without cloaking! Seriously, an ambush doesn't depend on you being invisible. Carapace and DCs first doesn't stop you from ambushing, whereas cloaking and SCs do stop you from normal combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3.cloaking does not require you to find a good spot it is quite effective to hide in the middle of a room or in the top corner of one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've failed to adress the point. I'll reiterate. You can ambush just as well without cloaking if you hide well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4: Cloaking does not work while you move. Therefore, it does not help you in combat. It doesn't make a difference if you can use cloaking to ambush successfully if you don't have the armour to take down your target.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4. the survivability of a skulk depends less on his life and more on the skill the skulk has to strafe. I am an excelent shot, but i have come agianst un carapaced skulk that could charge you down a straight hall way and strafe in a way that you couldnt hit him once. ive come to think that the survivability depends on marine firing patterns and skulk strafe patterns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you fail to address the point. Does or doesn't cloaking help you while you're moving?
If you're an excellent shot, that skulk would be dead. This is also a subjective statement and not a valid argument. Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean that the rest of the world can't, as long as it is within the ruleset. You also claim that a skulks chance of survival does not depend on his health and ability to take damage, which is false. If skulk A has less hp and takes more damage than skulk B, skulk A will die first, all other things being equal. QED.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5: Because cloaking does not help you in combat and does not work on turrets, it does not help you destroy marine outposts. It offers no advantage to ATTACK, only to defend. No battle is ever won by remaining on the defensive all the time. If you cannot stop marines from securing resource nodes, if you cannot stop them from setting up forward bases and you cannot stop them from securing hives you will lose. No question. Cloaking does nothing to help you retake captured locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5. you only need 1 sens chamber in the beggining. you should start by camping the marine spawn while your gorge uses that extra 32 res to set up a mini wall of lame for 56 res you can put 4 OC's in the hive you wish to take next. and thats only if your skulks arent the best. otherwise you could build about 2 extra res nodes. if you want to take out a base and you got some time then get cloaking on a skulk or lerk or what ever then you can cloak next to a turret and bite cloak bite cloak bite cloak. take out the turrets 1 by one. also offencive gorging is much much more important in this because you can run to the middle of a base as a gorge cloak and then start building a chamber ive taken out whole bases with just a single gorge with cloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What 32 extra res? And how can you set up a mini-wall of lame for 56 res when you have 32? I do gorge sometimes and I prefer to do without OC's early on. I trust my skulks to keep the marines off my back. While your gorge are building sensory and attempting to build a WoL at the enemy outpost, I've spent that time capping 3 res nodes, built two def towers in the new hive and be well on the way for the second hive before your gorge would have managed to set up that WoL against a half-decent team of marines.
bite, cloak, bite, cloak.... This will take twice as long, at least, to kill a structure, giving marines more than enough time to get to wherever you are.
And the fact that you've taken out a whole base with a single gorge with cloak makes me seriously doubt the skills of the marines you're claiming are the best of the best.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6: The sensory chamber's built-in feature of reporting enemy incursions pales into insignificance compared to the defense chamber's healing properties. Anyway, skulks have parasite right from the first hive. A competant team of skulks should be able to track the movements of the marines using parasite without the need for SCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
6.everyone knows that "ENEMY IS APROCHING" is stupid kind of. although once you learn the radius of detection a sens chamber has you know exactly were marine "could" be and move accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, the fact that as long as the sens chamber is detecting the marine he'll be on the hive sight doesn't matter. The important thing is knowing the radius?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->7: As with the above point, sensory chambers will not help heal the hive if it is being attacked. Nor will they provide ANY benefit to offense chambers in a Wall of Lame. Again, this will change in 1.1 - time will tell whether it will be effective or not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
7. i dont know if youve heard of this wonderfull ablity called healing spray?? no?? ok then let me explain what healing spray is. it heals 4-5 times faster than any defence chamber. use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many gorges would you want on that team? A gorge can't be everywhere, and once a marine spots the gorge, how long will he live, pray tell?
Defense gets old and boring, despite all its nice advantages its just less <i>FUN</i> compared to sensory.
Thats the primary reason theres people who like sensory first, its fun being invisible. Plain and simple. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a short statement I have to say here.
You are addressing, that sensory first is fun. But you have to face the fact that not everyone is in a "fun" mood.
Some may want to train, some may want to play old-skool and some may just want to win for christ's sake.
You may make the game fun for yourself if you start with sensory. But the fact is, you may be the only one laughing.
Just imagine you having fun camping in an useless place while everyone else is cursing your name and just being slightly mad at you.
The 2 OC things while assaulting is particularly laughable. A battle gorge with no carapace and no nearby healing (remember, no DCs!) is a dead gorge. He'll easily die before the first OC is complete. Assuming he does manage to put up 2 OCs, they will not be the perfect damage soakers as sentries will always target a skulk attacking them, not to mention the marines that will most certainly be around.
Assuming the above would work, which is highly doubtful if not outright deniable, what role does cloaking play in it? None! Doesn't he realize he must think up weak and very risky counters to common marine strategies only because he decided not to get DCs for no reason whatsoever?
All he does is dodge, evade, ignore, and gives blatantly laughable advice. Me thinks he's just a troll.
Kazyras doesnt want to try to understand he doesnt want to think. Im done responding to this thread because no matter how constructive i could possible make a post kazyra will just act like he has no idea what i am talking about.
if ignorance is bliss then kazyras must be the happiest person on earth.
1. Choke points
2. Many res nodes location
3. Hive siege location
4. Any combination of the above
A good comm just gets 2 of those locations and it is gg if marines and aliens are evenly matched. No need to make that situation even more difficult by making sensory.
They'll get an observatory up and send a big squad toward your hive, often with a few shotguns tossed in. The comm will scan every room the marines enter, immediately uncloaking all skulks and rendering your upgrade useless. The comm can afford to do this (even though he shouldn't have to do it more than 5 times, for a total of 15 res) because he knows the rush will win the game or cripple the aliens beyond recovery (like killing the gorge multiple time and knifing down their only RT.)
The marines will push their way forward to your hive, quite quickly and easily I might add due to the marines' complete ownage of early skulks, and then they'll be in a defensive position VERY uncomfortably close to your hive (read: within siege range) that you will HAVE to assault. This is assuming they won't just waltz into the hive room and start spawn camping and shooting at the hive, which will heal itself at a pathetic 2 HP per sec since you didn't get DCs. Problem is, you chose the absolute worst upgrade path for assaulting. Going cloak assumes that your team will manage to NEVER let a single marine get anywhere close to your hive. I'm sorry to say, but this is living in a fantasy world. It WILL happen unless the aliens utterly outclass the marines, and it will happen soon. Then you're screwed.
Assuming the aliens somehow manage to get a second hive up (newbie marines most likely), you'll still be disadvantaged compared to the regular DMS build order. If you pick defense, your lerks will be very inefficient due to no adrenaline and you'll either have castrated acid rocket spamming fades, or slow melee fades with no celerity. If you go movement, you'll have offensive power alright, but next to no survivability in combat. Lose/lose situation. Cloaking won't compensate for any of these deficiencies as the marines will most certainly have motion tracking by then.
Besides, what the hell is so good about cloak for ambushing anyway? Unless you're standing directly in the marines' path, you'll get next to no surprise effect. As soon as you move, you'll uncloak with a BIG audio cue (the uncloaking sound), then you'll just be a plain old regular uncarapaced skulk with no celerity -- in other words, no upgrades to help you live longer in battle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 minuits with 2 shotgun men?? ud have to save up ur res so i think ur wrong man they wudent lose i n2 mins
And nightcrawler, insulting and flaming isn't trolling, it's just that: insulting and flaming. Trolling is posting outrageous/stupid/ridiculous stuff solely to provoke a cascade of negative responses. With your complete dismissal of my VERY VALID questions asking how cloaking can help in countering THREE HIGHLY COMMON MARINE TACTICS (hive rush, fast teching, 2 hive lockdown) and your continued repetitions of "you all don't want to see the advantages that sensory provides" when you only stated ONE such advantage and we demonstrated that it wasn't all that great and useful after all, what I am supposed to think?
You post something that goes against the common sense and experience of people that at all try playing competitively: sensory first is good. Then when you were told that your upgrade path is easily 100% negated by a simple marine ability, you answer with the ridiculous statement of "good comms don't scan" (Good comms don't do stuff that counters your upgrade path? You don't say! I guess good comms don't get weapon upgrades to diminish the advantage of carapace either!), you give a half-assed/laughable counter to a single of the many points against your position (battle gorging with no defense upgrades to offensive tower with 2 OCs and no DCs with the support of skulks with no carapace is going to liberate a turreted/mined/phased hive outpost manned by at least 1 marine? Do you underestimate the marines this much, or are they really that bad?) and you conveniently ignore the rest. You also attacked the skill and credibility of top clans (They don't know the power of leap? LOL) and you keep singing that it's all a matter of opinions so therefore your position is automatically as valid as any other and unattackable, game analysis, experience, complete lack of arguments in your favor and plain old common sense be damned. This is blatant trolling in many people's book, people used to gaming message boards.
Assuming that your battle gorging example would work against half decent marines (it won't, at all, but let's assume for an instant that it will) you still haven't answered the 2 following questions:
- How does sensory first help AT ALL against a tech rush?
- How does sensory first help AT ALL in surviving an early marine rush when the comm knows how to scan?
BTW, you do realize that with your ways of argumenting, we could validate any and all strategy for every single game in existence, even the spectacularly crappy ones from not moving your paddle in Pong to militia rushing in Warcraft 3?
For crying out loud quit flaming and trying to demonstrate your superiority. Some people like sensory first because it's fun. I'm one of them, although I like D first if I'm really intent on winning. Fine. Let those who want to explore the sensory strategy do so on a forum without you constantly, and in great detail, going on about how you are GOD and they are N00Bs and anyone who gets sensory is retarded, untalented, ignorant, etc. They are not, they just think differently from you. Last I checked none of you had a Nobel Prize for Gorging, or a Gold Medal in Skulking.
You smug a***oles make me sick sometimes. Let people play the game and have fun.
wIPeOut
Nobody is calling anyone stupid for LIKING getting sensory first or finding it MORE FUN. If you read the first post in this thread, you'll see that the thread starter essentially said that getting sensory first is the best thing to do, which is flat out wrong. He was told and explained as much and he eventually BACKED DOWN on his affirmation.
Now, take a look at nightcrawler, he still hasn't backed down. He still claims that sensory first is just as good if not better then defense first. He was flooded with a deluge of very valid arguments and given ample, credible explanations on why cloaking won't work as advertized on good marines. He flat out ignored most of it and gave nearly-trolling answers (I'm still not sure if he's serious or not) to a select few.
It's a debate, wipeout, a debate that nightcrawler is losing badly, yet he still maintains his "you're all too blind to see it" attitude (who's the real one acting superior and treating the others like noobs, I wonder?) and still refuses to answer my questions on how sensory first will help at all in surviving and countering 2 highly common marine tactics (fast tech, hive rush with scanning to cancel cloaking.)
just repost your awsome points without any egotistical dribble and i will respond to each one to the best of my ablity.
im bored o yeah and post the names of the servers you play on as well as the ip adresses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->egoistical
adj : limited to or caring only about yourself and your own needs<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I gave ample general arguments on how inffecient cloaking is early game, general guidelines for marines to easily defeat it, and only one concrete example in which I participated to illustrate my point. I and many others have use non self-referential arguments, such has the extreme fragility of early game alien lifeforms lacking carapace, the overall extreme usefulness of passively healing structures (for hive defense, healing OCs, forward healing positions for harrassing/assaulting skulks), the drawbacks of cloaking (doesn't help at all in combat, you have to skip carapace to get it, won't help you attack marine positions, noticeable uncloaking sound that kills any surprise ambush advantage you might have had unless the marines walk directly into your teeth, easily canceled by scanning and motion tracking) and the uselessness of the sensory chamber compared to the defense chamber.
Meanwhile you said stuff like "I don't care how good a marine you are, if I have cloaking I will kill you" and "cloaking works for me."
...
Anyhow...
I'm asking -you- to explain how going sensory first will help survive/counter/defeat the following 2 common marine tactics:
- Hive rush with scanning (once they figure you went sensory)
- Tech rush, in particular the kind where the marines cap 1 or 2 nearby nodes as soon as the game starts and tech straight to JP/HMG while holding those nodes + base with marines and perhaps a few mines, and a rambo or two to keep you on your toes and kill your gorge
As for the servers I play on:
- CHI MAYHEM NS 205.243.147.200:27015
I'm almost always there. If not:
- Chitown Freeze NS v1.04 12.107.109.124:27015
- I also used to play on the clan [ReD] and [SoM] servers, but not very much anymore. You might still catch on either their server once in a great while.
My moniker is [Taco]Kaz.
Piece of advice, I strongly discourage getting sensory first on these servers without the approval of the entire alien team first.
The response to this was that the marines will realize very quickly that the aliens have gone "sensory first" after they decloak at all within audible range of a marine. Once the marines know this, the marines will get an observatory and will be able to proceed, in squads, aided by scans, with the knowledge that the aliens are going to have no carapace, to cripple whatever the aliens have in a short time. The alien hive, also, will have no defensive chambers to heal it.
In addition, it was noted that even if the aliens get a second hive after going "sensory first", they are still crippled, as they will now have to choose between having adrenal available or finally making carapace available. No adrenaline means very inefficient lerks and fades. No carapace this late in the game means the marines should be killing aliens quite easily.
Most significantly, the usefulness of cloaking early on itself is called into question. Unless you're directly in the path of a marine, they aren't seeing you anyways. Skulks ambush players all the time in this phase of the game without cloak. How much of an advantage will cloak really give? When you decloak you make a loud and notable sound saying both "an enemy nearby as just moved out of cloak" and "we don't have carapace and even at hive 2 we are not going to have either carapace or adrenal!", news that any decent commander should know what to do with.
Responses to these comments said to "build an offensive chamber near a resource tower and then you have a great ability early on." This seems quite juxtaposed to the former remarks, with no explanation given. This person also talks about lerks using umbra and gorges healing endlessly at hive 2.
In response to the above ridiculous comments, it was pointed out that an offensive chamber dies quite easily with no defensive chambers to heal it, that going sensory and then movement is going to be widely vulnerable to even a single grenade launcher.
Finally, someone pointed out the alleged combat advantage of cloak. Someone said that cloak lets them kill three marines and take no damage using leap.
The response:
A commander will scan ahead of his marines using the observatory he got after the marines discovered that the aliens had gone "sensory first", that cloaking is not good to ambush because of the sound it makes, how you can't stand in direct view of marines anyways because 90% cloak is still visible to most marines, effectively requiring ambushes that would go the same if the aliens didn't even have cloak at all.
In other words, carapace is better for ambushing than cloak. Cloak is only useful with silence, which requires another hive, therefore cloak at hive 1 is useless. Having only cloak early on does nothing to help aliens assault, a situation that marines will surely force once they discover that the aliens are decloaking (the sound) and 90% invisible while camping AND marines can scan their way to anywhere making an assault, facing only these carapaceless skulks, quite likely to succeed.
Leap, of course, requires a second hive and shouldn't be able to kill marines very well when you have no carapace and the marines have upgrades (by second hive, assuming they can even get one, which they can't, according to this response).
Sensory first means no defensive chambers, which means no hive healing, no defensive positions, useless offensive chambers, and no help whatsoever assaulting.
"Cloaking first is a very effective strategy."
"70% of the games I played sensory first aliens won."
Someone noted that silence is better for skulks than cloaking because mobility is more important for skulks and can actually get a free bite. Another noted that cloaked lerks are about as useful as cloaked skulks, and that lerks are better off with adrenaline or carapace than cloak.
After all of this, NIGHTCRAWLER SAYS:
"they gave no valid points as to why sensory first wont work. they just spouted their noobish non-wisdom and expect everyone to accept it as fact."
"sesory first is valid if you have a team of non retards/noobs. ive already said all of this in other posts. read them"
PLEASE EXPLAIN. I JUST READ THEM OKAY?
With a sensory you can't attack, it's simple as that. All it takes is lvl1 weapons and one marine with a better than avarage shot to hold the marine base or a hive location against any attacks from non cara skulks without leap. So if you want to use sens first you have to be absolutely sure that you can hold two hive positions. And because of this the only map were I would even consider build sens first while being sober is caged. If the marines secure both hive locations it's automatically game over for the aliens.
Also the moment the marines get motiontracking cloaking becomes mostly useless.
The moment marines get lvl2 weapons and lvl 1 armor skulks have no chances 1on1 against an avarage skilled marine (against a skilled marine they lose their chances the moment the marine gets lvl1 weapons and against an elite marine, like me <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> , they never have a chance)
So if the marine comm knows his/her job well, he/she will make a fast rescap, MT, send men to guard the hive position and finish the job with a nice HA + welder rush just to show that the aliens never had a chance to win.
1. sensory 1st: sensory will not help you do anything agianst a comm that scans constantly AKA if properly done your screwed. the only thing you can hope for is a misplaced scan or the marines not finding out that you have cloaking till its to late. If the marines do not know that you have cloaking by time the rush is under way then you will crush the rush but if not then its GG. ive seen good players do rushes flawlessly sometimes and other times with the same players they fail miserably.
2. defence 1st: defence would allow carapaced skulks to get an extra 1-2 seconds of life in a firefight and the healing from the chambers would allow the lucky skulks that got away to run back and heal. Agian ive seen carapaced skulks squash a rush and other times completly get whiped.
So in conclusion to this point defence would be best mainly because of the scanning and the extra seconds it provides. Some times skill wins out and others BS is the soup of the round.
-Tech rush: A properly done tech rush will be done by time you have 2/3 chambers up Because of the recycleing of the marine buidlings, but for the sake of argument lets say you have all 3 for 2 senarios.
1. sensory 1st: you screwed because the marines will just mine their bases up and 1-2 res nodes. If you feel lucky go camp were you think a jp will pass by and try to bring him down. theres nothing you can do but have everyone go lerk and hope for the best.
2. Defence 1st: your slightly less screwed because you can atleast take 1 mine before you die. The only thing you can do is put pressure on the marines and have everyone go lerk and hope for the best.
So in conclusion you will lose agianst a properly done tech rush no matter what chamber you go first. There are several tech rush stratiges that involve the recycling of buildings to speed up the process of getting to HMG JP. A skulk wont get a good Jper and skulks cant fly soo GG no RE
i hope ive awserd your points.