<!--QuoteBegin--Anavrin+Apr 28 2003, 10:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anavrin @ Apr 28 2003, 10:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's something new: There is NO counter against a good webber and a small group of aliens when the marines are attacking. None! You decide to save your teammates, then you'll get chewed. If not, then they get chewed. And once again, read the thread properly and you'll realize that GL's are utterly useless. And then add umbra into the web/skulk/fade mix. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why is it that anyone who doesn't agree with you must have not "read the thread properly"? How can you say that if someone reads this they MUST agree with you? Everyone has diffenerent experiences in this game. I'm sure many good players have been in similar situations and have oblitereated the gorge attempting to web them, just as I'm sure others have been dominated by the webbing gorge of similar skill. Does this mean, that one gorge was a newbie and the other good, or one group of marines was good and the other (to use a term I really hate) n00bs? No, it means that **** happens. You can't win everytime. And just because it works when you don't want it to doesn't mean its overpowered. I think the fact that alien fans complain the marines are overpowered while the marine fans simultaneously complain the aliens are overpowered is proof things are not nearly as bad as a lot of people on this forum make them out to be.
I think that EVERYONE has misread the topic title. Nearly every post in this thread either agrees that webs are currently overpowered and believes they need to be changed, or believes that though webs are very powerful, they are the only effective counter the aliens have at the two-hive stage. Everyone is speaking from experience; from current theory. But the thread topic asks "will they be addressed in 1.1?" Think about what goodies each side will receive in the new version, and THEN ask whether webs should be so powerful in that environment.
First of all, I'd like to point out that even now it is very possible to kill a group of heavies without resorting to offensive webbing. It is critical that lerks use umbra at point-blank range with the marines. Once that shield is up, the lerk runs like hell and the fades use blink to close the distance. The umbra allows the fades to use their claws without being instantly ripped to shreds, and those claws are just what's needed to outpace the constant welding regeneration.
This tactic isn't foolproof, of course. Upgraded HMGs can still dish out significant damage through umbra at close range, and grenadiers will be doing their best to hit the fades (even though they'll also be blowing the crap out of their teammates in tourny mode). And pity the fade who gets caught at close range if the umbra dissipates. Although the aliens are likely to win in the above scenario, their biggest weakness is that fades still can't take a whole lot of damage.
So jump ahead to NS 1.1. We know that there'll be electrified Tfacs, a techtree redesign and jetpacks that don't rely on FPS for fuel. We also know that the aliens are no longer limited by hives when it comes to evolving into different classes. Right there... there's the key. Everyone who's complaining that webs are the only weapon the aliens have against heavies at the two-hive stage: <b>Rejoice! Your savior has arrived, in the form of the almighty ONOS!</b> The weakness I cited above, of fades not being tough enough? You can't say that about ol' rhino. The aliens won't need webs to dominate heavies in v1.1, no sirree. Having both the current offensive webs and oni at the two-hive stage would be sadistically unfair to the marines.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited April 2003
A) Fam has already replied that webs will be addressed in v1.1
B) I have NEVER been successfully insta-webbed in my entire play-time when I have the welder out <b>and running</b>. That last bit is the important part. Soon as the web starts to form, it registers and the welder kills it, so long as the welder is firing. Perhaps those complaining about being able to be webbed while welding either misunderstand this concept of actually needing to be holding down the fire button for it to work, or have inane amounts of lag, and want further compensation.
If said marines WERE walking around without at least one devoted welder to keep all that tech in tip-top condition, NONE of them knew how to play the freaking game. You always keep one, preferably two HA/LMG/Welder soldiers around. HMGs travel in front, GLs in the middle, Welders in the rear.. always going. If the front guys hit a web trap or are insta-webbed, the welders move up and *in front of them* and start welding each other. The insta-web vaporizes instantly if the Gorge tries to nail the welding duo, and any incoming projectiles hit them and are healed away by the welder as well. Webbed HAs fall back to un-web, while the GLs arc two spaced rounds apiece over the welding pair, then another one apiece after a VERY brief pause. Preferably including one of the non-webbed HMGs providing a 'reloading' sound so the Aliens think there is only one GLer, who is reloading and move up.. just in time to catch the next two in the face. After which one GLer fires, reloads, and during the reload the other GLer fires to provide cover. After this, all those caught by webs should have been freed, and are free to peek around the sides of the welding pair and fire, a bit behind them to avoid the possibility of re-insta-web.
And on the other hand, who says that a Gorge is supposed to be completely helpless? They were given weapons for a reason. If they weren't supposed to be able to do anything, then Spit wouldn't exist, and Healing Spray would not do damage. Web would be a base ability if it were intended solely for defense, and not as a versatile tool which can both act as moderate area-denial and as an offensive tool for ambushes. Originally, Gorges *could* web Marines by shooting them directly. That should tell you it was intended as a weapon. The direct-shot ability was removed because it was too powerful, and was balanced down to how it works currently. It wasn't removed because it shouldn't be a weapon, just that *aspect* was removed to make it slightly more difficult to offensively web. Y'know.. adding skill to it?
Personally, I commend a Gorge who can take out that lot solo. With Fade backup, it's a lot less impressive.. but no less valid if the Marines were too stupid to have a welder or two, as previously noted.
I got caught in webs once when shooting some O-towers with my jp hmg, and then, and onos came <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I had some wierd little ns dream that some guy walked over some webs and I heard something like "Webs have been broken." Needless to say that I was "WTH" O_O
<!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Apr 29 2003, 03:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Apr 29 2003, 03:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> B) I have NEVER been successfully insta-webbed in my entire play-time when I have the welder out <b>and running</b>. That last bit is the important part. Soon as the web starts to form, it registers and the welder kills it, so long as the welder is firing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. It doesn't. If you are running happily along with your welder out and firing, you can still be webbed if it forms directly on top of you (or under you, or wherever). The web never actually forms and is capable of being welded, it just webs you straight off. It really doesn't matter what the heck you're doing at the time, you <i>cannot</i> defend against it.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Odd. It's never happened to me. Ever. Regardless of how many times it's been tried. Any time I *was* insta-webbed, I didn't have the welder actually running at the time, and it was my own fault. The rest, it's an invinci-shield against webbing.
what pry saved you was the running <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> the gorgey pry didnt have good enough aiming and timing to nail you while you were charging him (altought with ha that would still be slow and do-able)
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited April 2003
No, no... I mean that the only times I've been insta-webbed, I was not actually firing. Every time a gorge tries to insta-web me WITH a welder out and being fired constantly, I just get the ripping sound and can still move freely. Perhaps that's why I see no problem with web as it stands currently.. I somehow magically am the only one who cannot be insta-webbed, regardless of the fact that we're all playing on the same code.
Or maybe I'm one of the few who actually uses the welder tactically, instead of as a fount of unlimited armor, or a super-knife.
"A good gorge" can probably in theory keep 4-6 HA marines webbed, in actuality 1 or 2 is more likely, unless the marines are somewhat stupid. The first thing to do if you and your teammate gets webbed is.... to move <b>away</b> from eachother.
These 6 HA's got killed by 1 gorge and 2 Fades? I'm sorry, but that is incompetence. Each web will only affect <b>one</b> Marine. The gorge would have to place 6 webs, that is 12 spits, I don't know if you have enough adrenaline to do that, and he would have to do it <b>perfectly</b>. Not even in theory is this very likely.
Webs are at the moement the best counter against HA. A combination of web, umbra and Fades smart enough to use their claws usually does take down a HA squad. Good job. That's teamwork. That's pretty much the height of efficiency for 2-hive aliens.
As several people have pointed out, some more courtesly then others, this thread is really about people getting upset by being owned by smart alien players who use teamwork when they "should" have won because they had such expensive gear.
Webs are fine. Instead of asking for nerfs every time you "lose" you could try improving your game. Yeah, a solo marine <b>will</b> get owned by webs. Maybe even two marines together will. So don't walk off alone with your equipment and then whine when you die!
<!--QuoteBegin--Question+Apr 27 2003, 02:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Question @ Apr 27 2003, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After seeing 6 ha/hmgs/gls being cut down by 2 fades and 1 gorg with adrenaline,im starting to think webs are overpowered.
A 0 res marine shouldnt be able to kill a fade by itself,so......do the res calculation for above example.
There is no possible way to weld a web when the gorg starts spamming the webs EXTREMELY near you.In a split second,you are webbed.You have to be EXTREMELY lucky to be aiming the welder at the EXACT spot he hit with the web.
I mean jesus a gorg with adrenaline can take a ha/hmg by itself.....just web like crazy and spit/healing spray.
Will this be addresed in 1.1? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All things are taken into consideration for v1.1... trust the pt's to balance webs and everything else.
Comments
Why is it that anyone who doesn't agree with you must have not "read the thread properly"? How can you say that if someone reads this they MUST agree with you? Everyone has diffenerent experiences in this game. I'm sure many good players have been in similar situations and have oblitereated the gorge attempting to web them, just as I'm sure others have been dominated by the webbing gorge of similar skill. Does this mean, that one gorge was a newbie and the other good, or one group of marines was good and the other (to use a term I really hate) n00bs? No, it means that **** happens. You can't win everytime. And just because it works when you don't want it to doesn't mean its overpowered. I think the fact that alien fans complain the marines are overpowered while the marine fans simultaneously complain the aliens are overpowered is proof things are not nearly as bad as a lot of people on this forum make them out to be.
First of all, I'd like to point out that even now it is very possible to kill a group of heavies without resorting to offensive webbing. It is critical that lerks use umbra at point-blank range with the marines. Once that shield is up, the lerk runs like hell and the fades use blink to close the distance. The umbra allows the fades to use their claws without being instantly ripped to shreds, and those claws are just what's needed to outpace the constant welding regeneration.
This tactic isn't foolproof, of course. Upgraded HMGs can still dish out significant damage through umbra at close range, and grenadiers will be doing their best to hit the fades (even though they'll also be blowing the crap out of their teammates in tourny mode). And pity the fade who gets caught at close range if the umbra dissipates. Although the aliens are likely to win in the above scenario, their biggest weakness is that fades still can't take a whole lot of damage.
So jump ahead to NS 1.1. We know that there'll be electrified Tfacs, a techtree redesign and jetpacks that don't rely on FPS for fuel. We also know that the aliens are no longer limited by hives when it comes to evolving into different classes. Right there... there's the key. Everyone who's complaining that webs are the only weapon the aliens have against heavies at the two-hive stage: <b>Rejoice! Your savior has arrived, in the form of the almighty ONOS!</b> The weakness I cited above, of fades not being tough enough? You can't say that about ol' rhino. The aliens won't need webs to dominate heavies in v1.1, no sirree. Having both the current offensive webs and oni at the two-hive stage would be sadistically unfair to the marines.
B) I have NEVER been successfully insta-webbed in my entire play-time when I have the welder out <b>and running</b>. That last bit is the important part. Soon as the web starts to form, it registers and the welder kills it, so long as the welder is firing. Perhaps those complaining about being able to be webbed while welding either misunderstand this concept of actually needing to be holding down the fire button for it to work, or have inane amounts of lag, and want further compensation.
If said marines WERE walking around without at least one devoted welder to keep all that tech in tip-top condition, NONE of them knew how to play the freaking game. You always keep one, preferably two HA/LMG/Welder soldiers around. HMGs travel in front, GLs in the middle, Welders in the rear.. always going. If the front guys hit a web trap or are insta-webbed, the welders move up and *in front of them* and start welding each other. The insta-web vaporizes instantly if the Gorge tries to nail the welding duo, and any incoming projectiles hit them and are healed away by the welder as well. Webbed HAs fall back to un-web, while the GLs arc two spaced rounds apiece over the welding pair, then another one apiece after a VERY brief pause. Preferably including one of the non-webbed HMGs providing a 'reloading' sound so the Aliens think there is only one GLer, who is reloading and move up.. just in time to catch the next two in the face. After which one GLer fires, reloads, and during the reload the other GLer fires to provide cover. After this, all those caught by webs should have been freed, and are free to peek around the sides of the welding pair and fire, a bit behind them to avoid the possibility of re-insta-web.
And on the other hand, who says that a Gorge is supposed to be completely helpless? They were given weapons for a reason. If they weren't supposed to be able to do anything, then Spit wouldn't exist, and Healing Spray would not do damage. Web would be a base ability if it were intended solely for defense, and not as a versatile tool which can both act as moderate area-denial and as an offensive tool for ambushes.
Originally, Gorges *could* web Marines by shooting them directly. That should tell you it was intended as a weapon. The direct-shot ability was removed because it was too powerful, and was balanced down to how it works currently. It wasn't removed because it shouldn't be a weapon, just that *aspect* was removed to make it slightly more difficult to offensively web. Y'know.. adding skill to it?
Personally, I commend a Gorge who can take out that lot solo. With Fade backup, it's a lot less impressive.. but no less valid if the Marines were too stupid to have a welder or two, as previously noted.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I got caught in webs once when shooting some O-towers with my jp hmg, and then, and onos came <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I had some wierd little ns dream that some guy walked over some webs and I heard something like "Webs have been broken."
Needless to say that I was "WTH" O_O
hehe
No. It doesn't. If you are running happily along with your welder out and firing, you can still be webbed if it forms directly on top of you (or under you, or wherever). The web never actually forms and is capable of being welded, it just webs you straight off. It really doesn't matter what the heck you're doing at the time, you <i>cannot</i> defend against it.
Or maybe I'm one of the few who actually uses the welder tactically, instead of as a fount of unlimited armor, or a super-knife.
These 6 HA's got killed by 1 gorge and 2 Fades? I'm sorry, but that is incompetence. Each web will only affect <b>one</b> Marine. The gorge would have to place 6 webs, that is 12 spits, I don't know if you have enough adrenaline to do that, and he would have to do it <b>perfectly</b>. Not even in theory is this very likely.
Webs are at the moement the best counter against HA. A combination of web, umbra and Fades smart enough to use their claws usually does take down a HA squad. Good job. That's teamwork. That's pretty much the height of efficiency for 2-hive aliens.
As several people have pointed out, some more courtesly then others, this thread is really about people getting upset by being owned by smart alien players who use teamwork when they "should" have won because they had such expensive gear.
Webs are fine. Instead of asking for nerfs every time you "lose" you could try improving your game. Yeah, a solo marine <b>will</b> get owned by webs. Maybe even two marines together will. So don't walk off alone with your equipment and then whine when you die!
HAHAH WTH?!
HA and HMG is lamer??? omg.. wut DO you expect people to use then? LMG and LA the whole game??
hahha
o btw... welder prevents ANY webs??
A 0 res marine shouldnt be able to kill a fade by itself,so......do the res calculation for above example.
There is no possible way to weld a web when the gorg starts spamming the webs EXTREMELY near you.In a split second,you are webbed.You have to be EXTREMELY lucky to be aiming the welder at the EXACT spot he hit with the web.
I mean jesus a gorg with adrenaline can take a ha/hmg by itself.....just web like crazy and spit/healing spray.
Will this be addresed in 1.1? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
All things are taken into consideration for v1.1... trust the pt's to balance webs and everything else.