I vote yes as well. It would REALLY help build the skills of marines to learn flanking and spreading manouvres to cover each other without killing each other.
No really, I love friendly fire and it adds a sense of realism to the game which I can't live without. Perdy please, let us use a simple mp_friendlyfire.
Would this still be the 33% damage or would it be full damage? Would mines cause chain reations like in tourney mode?
Sometimes when I'm around on my server I turn on Tourney mode. Everyone seems to enjoy it as long as there is an admin around to kick the abusers. The trick is to turn it on after the round has started so you can get past the "ready" and uneven teams nonsense.
Would this still be the 33% damage or would it be full damage? Would mines cause chain reations like in tourney mode?
Sometimes when I'm around on my server I turn on Tourney mode. Everyone seems to enjoy it as long as there is an admin around to kick the abusers. The trick is to turn it on after the round has started so you can get past the "ready" and uneven teams nonsense.
Mantylan NS 66.150.106.121:27015 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, maybe Flayra should just provide a cvar to disable the whole "ready" feature of the tournament mode so we can just use the remaining FF features of tournament mode in our public servers?
I think FF makes the impact of the game even more important to all players. They see it truelly as a team game.
It would speak highly of NS to be the first game with FF on as the default variable. Making it a testiment to all game coders, that NS stands by the fact that it is team-oriented.
*edit* I would also like to add, that if Flayra was awaiting the response of NS community, maybe this should be stickied, or even moved to General Discussion.
Asking server operators whether they want more server-side options is quite pointless as the answer is obvious. The same arguments used to justify a FF variable can be used to argue in favour of giving complete control over all game mechanics to the server admins. "Why shouldn't I have the right to determine how much a hive costs?" asks the server admin. "It's my server after all."
What the server admin usually forgets is that players like the rules of the game to remain constant throughout all servers, and games with FF are fundamentally different from those without. Shifting power from the game designer to the server admin is not in the best interest of the player. I want Flayra to determine, universally and with no room for customization, what the rules of NS are, as otherwise I'd have to relearn the game for every set of house rules.
Now you might argue that an FF variable is far from complete rule control, but in my opinion it is the first step on a slippery slope. Playtests are being conducted to balance the game for exactly two rule sets, Casual and Tournament. It will be difficult enough to do it right for these two modes. The chance that random mixtures of custom settings yield an enjoyable (i.e. balanced) gaming experience is as tiny as a Babbler's brain.
Add to this all the pitfalls and frustrations introduced by the ability to hurt your own team in the anarchic enivronment of public servers, and my vote is a clear <b>NO</b>.
My main problem with it isn't balance, or giving control to the server ops, it's thinking of how many new players will have a bad experience when joining a FF-on server by accident. It's hard enough for new players to have a good first experience, the thought of skulks parasiting each other, chomping each other and a marine wasting people as they spawn out of the, then getting more ammo from the adjacent armory, only to repeat it again, makes me never ever want to put it in.
Basically, I'm still undecided here, and I have a lot of work that I know MUST be done for 1.1.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Apr 29 2003, 11:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Apr 29 2003, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My main problem with it isn't balance, or giving control to the server ops, it's thinking of how many new players will have a bad experience when joining a FF-on server by accident. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Would it be posible to have an option (defualt on) to "warn me when entering a FF server" so that newbies will be a nice prompt that says "Warning! This server has enabled Freindly Fire. If you are new to this game, it is recommended that you play on servers that do not have this enabled. Continue? (Y/N)"
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Apr 29 2003, 11:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Apr 29 2003, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it's thinking of how many new players will have a bad experience when joining a FF-on server by accident. It's hard enough for new players to have a good first experience, the thought of skulks parasiting each other, chomping each other and a marine wasting people as they spawn<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Friendly-fire is becoming much more common than it used to. Most gamers have probably experienced a FF-enabled game at some point, so it shouldn't surprise many. For example, 1400 out of 2100 Battlefield 1942 servers have friendly-fire enabled right now. That's 2/3rds with FF on. I *think* FF may even be on by default; have to check later.
Perhaps having built-in anti-teamkilling measures would allay most of your FF worries? Then you wouldn't have to count on server admins to install third-party measures to deal with griefers. Give the players the ability to vote off a teamkiller after a TK-threshold is reached, or something along those lines. You've already given the players the power to vote a misbehaving commander out of the chair. The same reasoning, and a similar solution could be applied to the TK problem.
FF, anti-idle, and many other thing can be made AFTER 1.1 is out. Since its just a server side patch <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think we've gotten flayra attention now and have gotten the recogition. Lets let him finish 1.1 then well start bugging him again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Apr 29 2003, 02:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Apr 29 2003, 02:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Apr 29 2003, 11:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Apr 29 2003, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it's thinking of how many new players will have a bad experience when joining a FF-on server by accident. It's hard enough for new players to have a good first experience, the thought of skulks parasiting each other, chomping each other and a marine wasting people as they spawn<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Friendly-fire is becoming much more common than it used to. Most gamers have probably experienced a FF-enabled game at some point, so it shouldn't surprise many. For example, 1400 out of 2100 Battlefield 1942 servers have friendly-fire enabled right now. That's 2/3rds with FF on. I *think* FF may even be on by default; have to check later.
Perhaps having built-in anti-teamkilling measures would allay most of your FF worries? Then you wouldn't have to count on server admins to install third-party measures to deal with griefers. Give the players the ability to vote off a teamkiller after a TK-threshold is reached, or something along those lines. You've already given the players the power to vote a misbehaving commander out of the chair. The same reasoning, and a similar solution could be applied to the TK problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I run a BF server (Desert Combat Modification), and I run FF off. However, I like the fact that it is 100% configureable. I can turn off vehicle damage, vehicle splash, weapon damage, and weapon splash. It's not on by default per se, but if you use BFSM (battlefield server manager from blackbagops) there's an entire tab dedicated to it. I run my server with it off because a clan formed named "el queda" and ran around on servers with FF on "suicide bombing" their own team. Thing is, with BF, you are banned by IP only, so if they have dialup, it's a pain in the @ss to ban them without screwing a large portion of the population. However, on NS, I would love to see the FF be configureable so that clannies can get practice with it on. Skulking with it on and attacking a marine res node is a mother at times.
Just make sure the default listen.cfg and server.cfg files have FF disabled. That way only clueful server ops will enable it and will hopefully rig up the normal 'THE SERVER HAS FF' banners/consgreet/ingame spam stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sgt_Astro+Apr 18 2003, 07:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sgt_Astro @ Apr 18 2003, 07:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On any public server: *Skulk runs into Marine base* *All marines die except the guy at the back, who is outta ammo (after killing team) and gets eaten. Game over!
So long as you can turn it off, I can't see why not. I doubt it would be very popular though.
/Edit for illustration <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I vote yes for FF as a Cvar both as Admin and as Player. Whenever i get the Chance i turn on the Tournament-Mode on on our server to get a more tactical and intense game. No more "Spray and Pray" with the HMG or Grenade Launcher. No more "Just cover the whole area in Spores" and such things. Or just imagine an Onos attacking some Marines moving down some Skulks accidently using charge. The game is much more fun this way, too, I think...
Of course i can understand the problems FF may bring, too... but in fact i do not consider them as problems that have their origin in FF.. or I don't consider them being problems at all:
"Newbies might get a bad first experience when accidently joining a FF-Server" First part is the "accidently"... Most players i know (and that's quite a lot) use tools like "All Seeing Eye", "Half Life Server Watch", "Kali" and so on, where the user can sort out Server with FF easily. And speaking as Server-Admin I think almost every admin will put a line like this into the motd: "### This Server is running with FRIENDLY FIRE ON - Please watch who you shoot at ###"
"FF gives lame players the oppertunity to ruin the whole game for their team" This problem does not solely come from FF! Of course such Lamers get new ways to ruin the game, but as we can see on publics almost every day, if a player really wants to ruin the game, chances are high he eventualy WILL ruin the game... almost every game has this problem, and it's the admins' job to deal with such lamers.
FF would be great--you'd think twice about joining a wolfpack eating an rt, or showering a teammate being attacked down the hall.
Also, it seems silly that you can hurt urself with nades, but none of your teammates. There would definitely need to be a provision for turrets, though. However, if you're standing under a hive being sieged, you deserve to die.
I actually saw (still wish id gotten a screenshot) a fade kill a skulk at the end of game, when comm and his chair went down almost simultaneously, complete with green death message in upper right corner! [in-game chat: "you get a screenshot of that?" "no, did you?" "anyone??" "awwww"]
Me being a server op and an active clannie, I think FF would be a great addition to public servers. Not to mention it would help warm people up to scrim/match settings, and make them feel more welcome in that kind of eviroment.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I vote YES for configurable FF. Better yet, configurable mirror/partial damage.
Sort of makes the HMG spam orgy when attacked in a group less prevalent. On the other hand, it DOES up the relative advantage of lower-class aliens if they can actually ambush a group of marines... hey, how about that, alien teamwork <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(I don't really see alien FF as a problem...you have to be pretty dense to just sit and chomp on a friend...but Onos, watch those charges!)
Comments
Funny thing mp_friendlyfire is registered but has no effect.
No really, I love friendly fire and it adds a sense of realism to the game which I can't live without. Perdy please, let us use a simple mp_friendlyfire.
Would this still be the 33% damage or would it be full damage?
Would mines cause chain reations like in tourney mode?
Sometimes when I'm around on my server I turn on Tourney mode. Everyone seems to enjoy it as long as there is an admin around to kick the abusers. The trick is to turn it on after the round has started so you can get past the "ready" and uneven teams nonsense.
Mantylan NS 66.150.106.121:27015
Would this still be the 33% damage or would it be full damage?
Would mines cause chain reations like in tourney mode?
Sometimes when I'm around on my server I turn on Tourney mode. Everyone seems to enjoy it as long as there is an admin around to kick the abusers. The trick is to turn it on after the round has started so you can get past the "ready" and uneven teams nonsense.
Mantylan NS 66.150.106.121:27015 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, maybe Flayra should just provide a cvar to disable the whole "ready" feature of the tournament mode so we can just use the remaining FF features of tournament mode in our public servers?
You got my 100% vote on that one FF all the way baby!
It would speak highly of NS to be the first game with FF on as the default variable. Making it a testiment to all game coders, that NS stands by the fact that it is team-oriented.
*edit* I would also like to add, that if Flayra was awaiting the response of NS community, maybe this should be stickied, or even moved to General Discussion.
What the server admin usually forgets is that players like the rules of the game to remain constant throughout all servers, and games with FF are fundamentally different from those without. Shifting power from the game designer to the server admin is not in the best interest of the player. I want Flayra to determine, universally and with no room for customization, what the rules of NS are, as otherwise I'd have to relearn the game for every set of house rules.
Now you might argue that an FF variable is far from complete rule control, but in my opinion it is the first step on a slippery slope. Playtests are being conducted to balance the game for exactly two rule sets, Casual and Tournament. It will be difficult enough to do it right for these two modes. The chance that random mixtures of custom settings yield an enjoyable (i.e. balanced) gaming experience is as tiny as a Babbler's brain.
Add to this all the pitfalls and frustrations introduced by the ability to hurt your own team in the anarchic enivronment of public servers, and my vote is a clear <b>NO</b>.
Basically, I'm still undecided here, and I have a lot of work that I know MUST be done for 1.1.
Would it be posible to have an option (defualt on) to "warn me when entering a FF server" so that newbies will be a nice prompt that says "Warning! This server has enabled Freindly Fire. If you are new to this game, it is recommended that you play on servers that do not have this enabled. Continue? (Y/N)"
Friendly-fire is becoming much more common than it used to. Most gamers have probably experienced a FF-enabled game at some point, so it shouldn't surprise many. For example, 1400 out of 2100 Battlefield 1942 servers have friendly-fire enabled right now. That's 2/3rds with FF on. I *think* FF may even be on by default; have to check later.
Perhaps having built-in anti-teamkilling measures would allay most of your FF worries? Then you wouldn't have to count on server admins to install third-party measures to deal with griefers. Give the players the ability to vote off a teamkiller after a TK-threshold is reached, or something along those lines. You've already given the players the power to vote a misbehaving commander out of the chair. The same reasoning, and a similar solution could be applied to the TK problem.
I think we've gotten flayra attention now and have gotten the recogition. Lets let him finish 1.1 then well start bugging him again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Friendly-fire is becoming much more common than it used to. Most gamers have probably experienced a FF-enabled game at some point, so it shouldn't surprise many. For example, 1400 out of 2100 Battlefield 1942 servers have friendly-fire enabled right now. That's 2/3rds with FF on. I *think* FF may even be on by default; have to check later.
Perhaps having built-in anti-teamkilling measures would allay most of your FF worries? Then you wouldn't have to count on server admins to install third-party measures to deal with griefers. Give the players the ability to vote off a teamkiller after a TK-threshold is reached, or something along those lines. You've already given the players the power to vote a misbehaving commander out of the chair. The same reasoning, and a similar solution could be applied to the TK problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I run a BF server (Desert Combat Modification), and I run FF off. However, I like the fact that it is 100% configureable. I can turn off vehicle damage, vehicle splash, weapon damage, and weapon splash. It's not on by default per se, but if you use BFSM (battlefield server manager from blackbagops) there's an entire tab dedicated to it. I run my server with it off because a clan formed named "el queda" and ran around on servers with FF on "suicide bombing" their own team. Thing is, with BF, you are banned by IP only, so if they have dialup, it's a pain in the @ss to ban them without screwing a large portion of the population. However, on NS, I would love to see the FF be configureable so that clannies can get practice with it on. Skulking with it on and attacking a marine res node is a mother at times.
So long as you can turn it off, I can't see why not. I doubt it would be very popular though.
/Edit for illustration <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL, that would be great. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Whenever i get the Chance i turn on the Tournament-Mode on on our server to get a more tactical and intense game.
No more "Spray and Pray" with the HMG or Grenade Launcher. No more "Just cover the whole area in Spores" and such things.
Or just imagine an Onos attacking some Marines moving down some Skulks accidently using charge.
The game is much more fun this way, too, I think...
Of course i can understand the problems FF may bring, too... but in fact i do not consider them as problems that have their origin in FF.. or I don't consider them being problems at all:
"Newbies might get a bad first experience when accidently joining a FF-Server"
First part is the "accidently"... Most players i know (and that's quite a lot) use tools like "All Seeing Eye", "Half Life Server Watch", "Kali" and so on, where the user can sort out Server with FF easily.
And speaking as Server-Admin I think almost every admin will put a line like this into the motd:
"### This Server is running with FRIENDLY FIRE ON - Please watch who you shoot at ###"
"FF gives lame players the oppertunity to ruin the whole game for their team"
This problem does not solely come from FF!
Of course such Lamers get new ways to ruin the game, but as we can see on publics almost every day, if a player really wants to ruin the game, chances are high he eventualy WILL ruin the game... almost every game has this problem, and it's the admins' job to deal with such lamers.
my vote is still: FF ON please
-my2cent-
Hyper
Also, it seems silly that you can hurt urself with nades, but none of your teammates.
There would definitely need to be a provision for turrets, though. However, if you're standing under a hive being sieged, you deserve to die.
I actually saw (still wish id gotten a screenshot) a fade kill a skulk at the end of game, when comm and his chair went down almost simultaneously, complete with green death message in upper right corner!
[in-game chat: "you get a screenshot of that?" "no, did you?" "anyone??" "awwww"]
Sort of makes the HMG spam orgy when attacked in a group less prevalent. On the other hand, it DOES up the relative advantage of lower-class aliens if they can actually ambush a group of marines... hey, how about that, alien teamwork <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(I don't really see alien FF as a problem...you have to be pretty dense to just sit and chomp on a friend...but Onos, watch those charges!)