I did some checking, heal spray actually heals the hive at about 50-100 per spray.
If the JP/HMGer is not aiming for the hive, he's not hurting the hive. With 3 DCs and the hive healing you, that's 30 points per tick and 20 points per hive "pulse" (which heals roughly two times faster than the DCs) you're getting healed at. Keep healing the DCs while dodging HMG fire. With carapace, a gorge jumping, running about, and hiding behind DCs is HARD to take down. By the time the HMGer manages to take down all the DCs (or you), I'm sure you'd have reinforcements there to get rid of the annoyance.
As for sieges, 3 DCs and a heal spraying gorge can make the hive withstand two (that's right: two) siege cannons hitting it at once. On most maps, the hive is slightly raised from the floor, so anything under it won't be harmed by the siege fire. Position the DCs so that the hive is ahead of them. For example:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> S S <- Sieges -------------- <- Wall X X <- Don't put DCs here H <- Hive DDD <- Put DCs here <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
There is usually one golden place where marines will siege from. Figure out where and you're all set.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not true, actually. I've done it. At least 4 or 5 defense chambers all around me, sitting there with adren spraying the hive (this was on Donce, with the plugin that lets you see health) and one jp'er still took down the hive. HMG just deals damage too fast to counter it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Were you jumping up to heal the hive? A constant stream of healing should be able to keep up with the damage the HMG is spewing out. With upgrades, the HMGer will damage the hive ever so slightly faster than your healing, but it gives your team time enough to run to assist the hive (I'd say you triple/quadruple the health of the hive by heal spraying it like crazy).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because the JPer won't notice a gorge sitting underneath him going "No no no, I don't think so Jippy!"
Even with all the healing around him, the gorge won't last 2 seconds under close range HMG fire. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the JPer wants to fight me, I say let him: I'll web his **** if he gets ANYWHERE near me. Unless the gorge is sitting completely still while healing the hive, they will not die in 2 seconds. As I said before, MOVE. Use the buildings around you as cover. With your flashlight on, the buildings become translucent, allowing you to see the marines but not the marines from seeing you. Adjust your position behind the buildings accordingly.
The fairies that play on my clan server would confirm this for ya: I'm hard to kill as a two hive gorge. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fairies that play on my clan server would confirm this for ya: I'm hard to kill as a two hive gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Omg fairys come to your server??!?!?! OMG!!! /me wants some pixie dust.
Well, I'm not too worried about a two-hive gorge defending a hive. The problem is when you only have one hive, and the other's just getting built. You have no webs and no adren. (Unless you went movement first.) The gorge runs out of healspray rather fast, and the few d chambers are just not enough to heal the hive.
If that's the problem, put up the second hive faster. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Make 2-3 RTs and immediately save for the 2nd hive (forget about defense/offense chambers). You'll have to trust in your team's ability to hold off the marines though.
Duffman is right, everyone knows jp/hmg is unbalanced, and its already fixed in 1.1, so instead of complaining, try to counter it.
Don't let the marines get any nodes at all. If its a big game, and they havn't built much, then they can still have a few jp/hmg before your 2nd hive goes up, but if they fail theyre totally screwed. Gorge should build a node, then build 3 dcs UNDER THE HIVE, so the dcs will heal the hive if its damaged(can build a 2nd node or more if the alien team is that much better than the marine team). Cara is essential to stop marine expansion. Gorge should then cap another node or two, and then build a few WELL PLACED ocs in the hive that are likely to hit jetpackers. Building a wall of lame at the entrances of the hive is just stupid. At this point you can either build more ocs or dcs (its good to max out the number of dcs under the hive: 8. It will require 3 or more hmg clips to kill a hive with 8 dcs and a gorge healing the hive) in the hive, or go cap more nodes, or get a 2nd hive (building defense there first is a lot safer), or you can get a 2nd gorge to go cap nodes/build 2nd hive while the first gorge builds more defense. Scouting is ESSENTIAL, too many times on pubs i stopped scouting because i forgot/was gorge/asked someone else do it/whatever else, and marines end up having 3 or more nodes on the other side of the map the entire time. Another good tactic is attacking the marine base with several skulks and trying to take down the proto lab or armory (if its shaking, or if you already know its upgrading). Lerks (with cara of course, the other D upgrades are worthless, except redemp for a gorge) can do well against jp/hmg, especially with spikes from a distance, since the hmg has a large spread. If youre up close to a jp/hmg, you have to keep moving to avoid hmg bullets, but this is hard to do w/o adren.
freeo: skulks get ripped apart by a marine who can aim w/o cara. Putting up a 2nd hive that early is a big risk, i wouldnt suggest doing this unless the marine team sucks.
<!--QuoteBegin--Immacolata+Apr 27 2003, 02:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Apr 27 2003, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CutterJoe+Apr 27 2003, 08:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CutterJoe @ Apr 27 2003, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> good point freeo but with a seige *BOOM* dead gorge. Of course I dont think that the hp is in that much need of a change. I think it is ok. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes well, the siege requires SOME planning and setting up, guards etc. The siege isnt lame. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said it was lame dude. Im just saying that a gorge healing a hive doesnt work against seiges. "Read and understand" do not "Understand then post before reading" it doesnt work that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--k33l3m+Apr 28 2003, 03:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (k33l3m @ Apr 28 2003, 03:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> freeo: skulks get ripped apart by a marine who can aim w/o cara. Putting up a 2nd hive that early is a big risk, i wouldnt suggest doing this unless the marine team sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your team is going to lose to JP/HMGers anyway, what's the difference? Tech rushing to JP/HMGs normally has the marines camping back at their base and RT outposts--not attacking. I guess it's still a risk. But if it works out, aliens will have the upper hand.
My usual strategy as gorge is to build two RTs (a third if my team seems to be doing well), then three DCs under the second hive, and then save up for the hive.
EDIT: Also remember: marines cannot be at two places at once. If they all decide to go and attack your second hive, group up and destroy their main base/outposts.
The hive only heals 2hp/sec when under attack, but if left alone for five seconds is starts healing itself at a 20hp/sec rate, this may even go for the surrounding aliens.
That would create a "paralyzed" like behavior when under attack. A hive should have just enough hp to survive an emptied HMG with full ammo and an emptied pistol with full ammo. That way you would almost have to be two to take the hive.
All ideas, fire away. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yep, freeo, I was healing the hive. 4 or 5 DC's and me healing it and the health was still dropping like mad... maybe there were two of them (jetpackers that is). I didn't have time to check, I was a bit preoccupied and he (they?) was/were in a vent (satcomm hive, ns_tanith). Healthspraying hives does do wonders, however.
If the marines are camping nodes then you need the cara even more, or else you wont take down a node such as station access. You can't let them have any nodes or they'll have jp hmg before you have a second hive. Plus without cara for the skulks to protect the gorge a good marine team would take out the gorge before he got that far.
Like I said, it's a risk and you have to trust in your team's abilities. Again, if you know they're teching to JP/HMGs and you're screwed if you don't get that second hive up fast, what's the point in getting carapace early? So the marines will take a bit longer to tech up, but so will the aliens--the hive is delayed because you had to put up three DCs.
If your usual strategies don't work, try a new one. Three DCs before the second hive obviously does not always work; second hive before three DCs will not always work either.
Not a chance in hell that would work in a clan match, non cara skulks die too easy, theyd get the 2nd hive down, and kill the gorge, and contain the alien team pretty well, thats why i said vs a good marine team....
I go 2-3 RTS (depending on map), 2nd hive, 3 D under second hive, put defense up for second hive, make mov, teleport thu mov, make mov in other hive, make 3 d under other hive, make defenses for other hive, make 3rd mov in some random spot.
Extra health regen and hp would not help a hive much against an LMG rush by a group of marines. This would be fine, I don't mind it when a TEAM of marines takes down a hive because that's what the marines are supposed to be doing, working as a team.
The jp/hmg tactic is completly against what the marine team is supposed to be doing: it encourages lone players running off on their own. Extra health and regen for the hive would make jp/hmging by lone rambos a lot less common and far harder to pull off. Suiting up 3 marines with jp/hmgs and getting them to kill the hive would be fine in my opinion, because then the marines are working together for a common goal.
You need to adapt, quit whining about JP/HMG being overpowered and think of a way to counter it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been playing NS since it was released, short of being a pre-1.0 tester or developer I don't know how much more "veteran" I could get. Countering the jp/hmg at 1 hive is a virtual impossibility against marines who know what they're doing. How would you counter a jper in the viaduct hive on nothing? Refinery on bast? Subspace or no-name on nancy? Waste handling on tanith? ventilation or archiving on hera? Computer core or maintenance on eclipse? Ventilation on caged? All at a 1 hive level. Skulks: if 8 of them are parisiting then they can sometimes bring down a jper. Without leap reaching the jpers is quite hard. Gorges: no chance. Lerks: good luck spiking a jper being health spammed. At 2 hives the aliens have plenty of anti-jp abilities, but the simple fact is that at 1 hive the aliens have to be very lucky to fend off a jp/hmg rush by skilled or partially skilled marines.
I'm not whining, I'm pointing out that a) the hive is too weak b) the jp/hmg tactic is contrary to what the marine team is supposed to use: teamwork c) 1 hive aliens are very weak vs jp/hmg attacks on their hive.
Perhaps if you included your infalible 1 hive tactics against jpers I could take your comments a little more seriously.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--freeo+Apr 27 2003, 05:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (freeo @ Apr 27 2003, 05:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Like I said, it's a risk and you have to trust in your team's abilities. Again, if you know they're teching to JP/HMGs and you're screwed if you don't get that second hive up fast, what's the point in getting carapace early? So the marines will take a bit longer to tech up, but so will the aliens--the hive is delayed because you had to put up three DCs.
If your usual strategies don't work, try a new one. Three DCs before the second hive obviously does not always work; second hive before three DCs will not always work either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You see, the gamble gfor getting 3 DCs early is that you'll be able to delay the marines for more than you're delaying youself. If your team sucks then it won't work.
Against a good marine team you are FORCED to make this gamble or DIE, because if left unchecked the marines can expand SO much faster than the aliens can expand (when left untouched).
Hell if you don't get 3 DCs early on, you're going to be taken down by vanilla marines, without JPs or HMG.
Comments
If the JP/HMGer is not aiming for the hive, he's not hurting the hive. With 3 DCs and the hive healing you, that's 30 points per tick and 20 points per hive "pulse" (which heals roughly two times faster than the DCs) you're getting healed at. Keep healing the DCs while dodging HMG fire. With carapace, a gorge jumping, running about, and hiding behind DCs is HARD to take down. By the time the HMGer manages to take down all the DCs (or you), I'm sure you'd have reinforcements there to get rid of the annoyance.
As for sieges, 3 DCs and a heal spraying gorge can make the hive withstand two (that's right: two) siege cannons hitting it at once. On most maps, the hive is slightly raised from the floor, so anything under it won't be harmed by the siege fire. Position the DCs so that the hive is ahead of them. For example:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
S S <- Sieges
-------------- <- Wall
X X <- Don't put DCs here
H <- Hive
DDD <- Put DCs here
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
There is usually one golden place where marines will siege from. Figure out where and you're all set.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not true, actually. I've done it. At least 4 or 5 defense chambers all around me, sitting there with adren spraying the hive (this was on Donce, with the plugin that lets you see health) and one jp'er still took down the hive. HMG just deals damage too fast to counter it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Were you jumping up to heal the hive? A constant stream of healing should be able to keep up with the damage the HMG is spewing out. With upgrades, the HMGer will damage the hive ever so slightly faster than your healing, but it gives your team time enough to run to assist the hive (I'd say you triple/quadruple the health of the hive by heal spraying it like crazy).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because the JPer won't notice a gorge sitting underneath him going "No no no, I don't think so Jippy!"
Even with all the healing around him, the gorge won't last 2 seconds under close range HMG fire. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the JPer wants to fight me, I say let him: I'll web his **** if he gets ANYWHERE near me. Unless the gorge is sitting completely still while healing the hive, they will not die in 2 seconds. As I said before, MOVE. Use the buildings around you as cover. With your flashlight on, the buildings become translucent, allowing you to see the marines but not the marines from seeing you. Adjust your position behind the buildings accordingly.
The fairies that play on my clan server would confirm this for ya: I'm hard to kill as a two hive gorge. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Omg fairys come to your server??!?!?! OMG!!! /me wants some pixie dust.
Don't let the marines get any nodes at all. If its a big game, and they havn't built much, then they can still have a few jp/hmg before your 2nd hive goes up, but if they fail theyre totally screwed. Gorge should build a node, then build 3 dcs UNDER THE HIVE, so the dcs will heal the hive if its damaged(can build a 2nd node or more if the alien team is that much better than the marine team). Cara is essential to stop marine expansion. Gorge should then cap another node or two, and then build a few WELL PLACED ocs in the hive that are likely to hit jetpackers. Building a wall of lame at the entrances of the hive is just stupid. At this point you can either build more ocs or dcs (its good to max out the number of dcs under the hive: 8. It will require 3 or more hmg clips to kill a hive with 8 dcs and a gorge healing the hive) in the hive, or go cap more nodes, or get a 2nd hive (building defense there first is a lot safer), or you can get a 2nd gorge to go cap nodes/build 2nd hive while the first gorge builds more defense. Scouting is ESSENTIAL, too many times on pubs i stopped scouting because i forgot/was gorge/asked someone else do it/whatever else, and marines end up having 3 or more nodes on the other side of the map the entire time. Another good tactic is attacking the marine base with several skulks and trying to take down the proto lab or armory (if its shaking, or if you already know its upgrading). Lerks (with cara of course, the other D upgrades are worthless, except redemp for a gorge) can do well against jp/hmg, especially with spikes from a distance, since the hmg has a large spread. If youre up close to a jp/hmg, you have to keep moving to avoid hmg bullets, but this is hard to do w/o adren.
yes well, the siege requires SOME planning and setting up, guards etc. The siege isnt lame. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said it was lame dude. Im just saying that a gorge healing a hive doesnt work against seiges. "Read and understand" do not "Understand then post before reading" it doesnt work that way.
If your team is going to lose to JP/HMGers anyway, what's the difference? Tech rushing to JP/HMGs normally has the marines camping back at their base and RT outposts--not attacking. I guess it's still a risk. But if it works out, aliens will have the upper hand.
My usual strategy as gorge is to build two RTs (a third if my team seems to be doing well), then three DCs under the second hive, and then save up for the hive.
EDIT: Also remember: marines cannot be at two places at once. If they all decide to go and attack your second hive, group up and destroy their main base/outposts.
The hive only heals 2hp/sec when under attack, but if left alone for five seconds is starts healing itself at a 20hp/sec rate, this may even go for the surrounding aliens.
That would create a "paralyzed" like behavior when under attack. A hive should have just enough hp to survive an emptied HMG with full ammo and an emptied pistol with full ammo. That way you would almost have to be two to take the hive.
All ideas, fire away. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If your usual strategies don't work, try a new one. Three DCs before the second hive obviously does not always work; second hive before three DCs will not always work either.
The jp/hmg tactic is completly against what the marine team is supposed to be doing: it encourages lone players running off on their own. Extra health and regen for the hive would make jp/hmging by lone rambos a lot less common and far harder to pull off. Suiting up 3 marines with jp/hmgs and getting them to kill the hive would be fine in my opinion, because then the marines are working together for a common goal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In quoting FW, "Newbies whine, veterans adapt".
You need to adapt, quit whining about JP/HMG being overpowered and think of a way to counter it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been playing NS since it was released, short of being a pre-1.0 tester or developer I don't know how much more "veteran" I could get. Countering the jp/hmg at 1 hive is a virtual impossibility against marines who know what they're doing. How would you counter a jper in the viaduct hive on nothing? Refinery on bast? Subspace or no-name on nancy? Waste handling on tanith? ventilation or archiving on hera? Computer core or maintenance on eclipse? Ventilation on caged? All at a 1 hive level. Skulks: if 8 of them are parisiting then they can sometimes bring down a jper. Without leap reaching the jpers is quite hard. Gorges: no chance. Lerks: good luck spiking a jper being health spammed. At 2 hives the aliens have plenty of anti-jp abilities, but the simple fact is that at 1 hive the aliens have to be very lucky to fend off a jp/hmg rush by skilled or partially skilled marines.
I'm not whining, I'm pointing out that a) the hive is too weak b) the jp/hmg tactic is contrary to what the marine team is supposed to use: teamwork c) 1 hive aliens are very weak vs jp/hmg attacks on their hive.
Perhaps if you included your infalible 1 hive tactics against jpers I could take your comments a little more seriously.
If your usual strategies don't work, try a new one. Three DCs before the second hive obviously does not always work; second hive before three DCs will not always work either. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, the gamble gfor getting 3 DCs early is that you'll be able to delay the marines for more than you're delaying youself. If your team sucks then it won't work.
Against a good marine team you are FORCED to make this gamble or DIE, because if left unchecked the marines can expand SO much faster than the aliens can expand (when left untouched).
Hell if you don't get 3 DCs early on, you're going to be taken down by vanilla marines, without JPs or HMG.