A Concern About The Starcraft Pack
coil
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone; the Starcraft pack is a communal effort, and this is therefore a statement to the community. I hope people can take this as the constructive criticism it is meant to be.
I raised a concern when the Drone model was released at 2648 polygons and two 512x512 skins. Compared to the original Gorge at 972 polys, that's a 272% (2.7 times) increase. Rebuttals to my concern included:
1) You never see many gorges in one game, let alone in one place.
2) Most people have stronger computers than the NS minimum recommended.
Issue #1: NS 1.1 makes multiple gorges not only viable, but desirable. You'll be seeing more of them, and not just around the hives.
Issue #2: Gorges may be frequently seen by themselves, but they're often accompanied by a whole mess of chambers, in fairly complex, infestation-ridden hive rooms.
Issue #3: My story gets better:
The Hydralisk Fade replacement weighs in at "over 2100 polys" (quote Pvt. Hudson). Assuming that's only 2100 polys, that is still a 236% (2.36 times) increase over the original Fade's 890 polygons.
The Lair Hive replacement model is currently at 1762, and will likely gain a few more before it's finished. Compared to the original hive's 1395, that is a 126% increase.
The Ultralisk Onos replacement is 1983 polys, a 176% increase over the original Onos' 1126.
The Zergling Skulk replacement is 1500 polys, a 152% increase over the original Skulk's 986.
The Marine light-armor marine replacement is 2002 polygons, which is 176% more than the default's 1135.
____________
The Mutalisk is a blissfully low 1087, which is only 115% larger than the original Lerk (944 polys). But do we see a trend here? On average, these models are 79% more complex than the ones they replace, and two of them are over twice as complex. Using this average, we can project the 1211-poly Heavy Marine to inflate to 2168 polys.
If you placed one each of the original NS player models (and a hive) in one room, it would total to 8659 polys. If you placed one each of the Starcraft models in a room (including the hypothetical Heavy Marine), you'd have 15,250+ polys ("+" because I don't have an exact count for the Hydra, Zergling, or final Lair). An 8v8 game, with 6 marines rushing a hive room while 5 skulks and a gorge defend the hive? Original NS models would total just over 14,100... the Starcraft models, nearly 24,000.
Combine these numbers with the very real possibility that the building models will inflate similarly (alien chambers, I believe, are all 500 or fewer polys; a 79% increase would bring them to 895 each), and I see a real problem. There are many players out there who don't have a high-end graphics crad... but <b>whether or not a player has the graphics card muscle to display these models, *Half-Life* doesn't like dealing with numbers that high.</b>
-edit- added info from Greedo and Nem0:
Greedo:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that the Half-Life engine can't handle that many polys. It chokes and dies when poly counts get too high. It's the reason you don't see ridiculously over-detailed maps or models. For w_polys (map architecture), the HL engine starts to die at around 1200 polys or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nem:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Using an old mappers rule of thumb, entitiy polys weigh in at about one tenth of the w_polys. This means that Coils example of the hive assaults is already at the limits when using standard models, and above that no computer, no matter how high-tech, will save you. None.
We're not talking '19 FPS, steady' here, we're talking 'serious partial lag'. If HL chokes, it chokes, and doesn't simply get slower. I'm really looking forward to this pack, and would love to use it, but if a normal skirmish between four marines and four aliens brings the engine down, I simply won't be able to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, I've got one request, and one half-request. The half-request is that any modelers who feel like it, please look into lowering the polycounts of the models you are working on or have already finished. Obviously, removing polys from a model is a big deal, and I understand if you don't want to. That's why it's a half-request.
The request is that whoever takes on the remaining models - the buildings, chambers, and heavy marine - PLEASE try to keep poly counts to a minimum. My worry is that this is going to be a beautifully done pack that absolutely no one will be able to run.
I raised a concern when the Drone model was released at 2648 polygons and two 512x512 skins. Compared to the original Gorge at 972 polys, that's a 272% (2.7 times) increase. Rebuttals to my concern included:
1) You never see many gorges in one game, let alone in one place.
2) Most people have stronger computers than the NS minimum recommended.
Issue #1: NS 1.1 makes multiple gorges not only viable, but desirable. You'll be seeing more of them, and not just around the hives.
Issue #2: Gorges may be frequently seen by themselves, but they're often accompanied by a whole mess of chambers, in fairly complex, infestation-ridden hive rooms.
Issue #3: My story gets better:
The Hydralisk Fade replacement weighs in at "over 2100 polys" (quote Pvt. Hudson). Assuming that's only 2100 polys, that is still a 236% (2.36 times) increase over the original Fade's 890 polygons.
The Lair Hive replacement model is currently at 1762, and will likely gain a few more before it's finished. Compared to the original hive's 1395, that is a 126% increase.
The Ultralisk Onos replacement is 1983 polys, a 176% increase over the original Onos' 1126.
The Zergling Skulk replacement is 1500 polys, a 152% increase over the original Skulk's 986.
The Marine light-armor marine replacement is 2002 polygons, which is 176% more than the default's 1135.
____________
The Mutalisk is a blissfully low 1087, which is only 115% larger than the original Lerk (944 polys). But do we see a trend here? On average, these models are 79% more complex than the ones they replace, and two of them are over twice as complex. Using this average, we can project the 1211-poly Heavy Marine to inflate to 2168 polys.
If you placed one each of the original NS player models (and a hive) in one room, it would total to 8659 polys. If you placed one each of the Starcraft models in a room (including the hypothetical Heavy Marine), you'd have 15,250+ polys ("+" because I don't have an exact count for the Hydra, Zergling, or final Lair). An 8v8 game, with 6 marines rushing a hive room while 5 skulks and a gorge defend the hive? Original NS models would total just over 14,100... the Starcraft models, nearly 24,000.
Combine these numbers with the very real possibility that the building models will inflate similarly (alien chambers, I believe, are all 500 or fewer polys; a 79% increase would bring them to 895 each), and I see a real problem. There are many players out there who don't have a high-end graphics crad... but <b>whether or not a player has the graphics card muscle to display these models, *Half-Life* doesn't like dealing with numbers that high.</b>
-edit- added info from Greedo and Nem0:
Greedo:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that the Half-Life engine can't handle that many polys. It chokes and dies when poly counts get too high. It's the reason you don't see ridiculously over-detailed maps or models. For w_polys (map architecture), the HL engine starts to die at around 1200 polys or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nem:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Using an old mappers rule of thumb, entitiy polys weigh in at about one tenth of the w_polys. This means that Coils example of the hive assaults is already at the limits when using standard models, and above that no computer, no matter how high-tech, will save you. None.
We're not talking '19 FPS, steady' here, we're talking 'serious partial lag'. If HL chokes, it chokes, and doesn't simply get slower. I'm really looking forward to this pack, and would love to use it, but if a normal skirmish between four marines and four aliens brings the engine down, I simply won't be able to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, I've got one request, and one half-request. The half-request is that any modelers who feel like it, please look into lowering the polycounts of the models you are working on or have already finished. Obviously, removing polys from a model is a big deal, and I understand if you don't want to. That's why it's a half-request.
The request is that whoever takes on the remaining models - the buildings, chambers, and heavy marine - PLEASE try to keep poly counts to a minimum. My worry is that this is going to be a beautifully done pack that absolutely no one will be able to run.
Comments
Arms, upper back, hands and feet are usally where the fat can be trimmed
/me throws his 2 cents in
The point i was trying to make with the TF2 example was that if HL supported it it could use the tech to make those 6 OC's at the other end of the hall have less pollys while the 2 sulks tenderizing you would be in full detail with a reduced Frame rate hit. Thats all
Buit seriously, I'm guessing this will drop performance level significantly? This is bad news for me and my POS Gateway '98. Running default NS already gives me some slowdowns, but I REALLY want this SC pack. Which will, in turn, make my computer run like ****.
Maybe someone could make a low poly pack...please...?
my ME can only take so much....
Your worries are well-founded, Coil. The SC models are probably going to hit your FPS. But the question is, are you really going to notice?
And 89% of all statistics are made up...
And Jamil... You don't notice any difference, but the other players do... It's rather irritating to see someone hack through the level <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (J/K)
It's up to the person that's DLing them to decide whether their comp can handle it.
Do highpoly models cause lag?
I prefer lowpoly models, making my customizations smaller than the original if possible.
spam:
improved and lowpolyed kyleygirls latest cutegorge:
972 Polys original NS gorge
876 Polys kileygirls latest cutegorge.
620 (+-20) my optimized version.
Im still working on it, the polycount will rise about +20 again to improve animation abilities (wagable tail, twistable body, gesturing legs, smiling face). it wont release before kileygirl comments it.
We're not talking '19 FPS, steady' here, we're talking 'serious partial lag'. If HL chokes, it <i>chokes</i>, and doesn't simply get slower. I'm really looking forward to this pack, and would love to use it, but if a normal skirmish between four marines and four aliens brings the engine down, I simply won't be able to.
I've seen servers with more than 350 fps... It's pretty kewl...
I'm not sure whether it works with NS, but very many CS-servers have it.
They're running XP and don't have the refresh rate fix, all openGL games are locked to 60 fps in XP
Which of these models with skin has been made?
Skulk = Zergling *Under Construction*
Gorge = Drone *Finished*
Lerk = Mutalisk *Not started/Under Construction*
Fade = Hydralisk *Finished*
Onos = Ultralisk *Under Construction*
Is this right?
Did i miss something?
Where can I get the refresh rate fix? I have a great computer (2.0 ghz, 512mb ram, only GeForce 2 though) But even when I just got this computer, fresh, I could never get over 60 fps. I ofcourse have Windows XP
If it was me making these high-poly models I'd want as many people as possible to use my work, not be all elitist about it like a few threads have become.
/tiny rant
Thanks to Greedo386 NemesisZero for some hard numbers that I didn't know. In case you missed them...
Greedo:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that the Half-Life engine can't handle that many polys. It chokes and dies when poly counts get too high. It's the reason you don't see ridiculously over-detailed maps or models. For w_polys (map architecture), the HL engine starts to die at around 1200 polys or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nem:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Using an old mappers rule of thumb, entitiy polys weigh in at about one tenth of the w_polys. This means that Coils example of the hive assaults is already at the limits when using standard models, and above that no computer, no matter how high-tech, will save you. None.
We're not talking '19 FPS, steady' here, we're talking 'serious partial lag'. If HL chokes, it chokes, and doesn't simply get slower. I'm really looking forward to this pack, and would love to use it, but if a normal skirmish between four marines and four aliens brings the engine down, I simply won't be able to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And please note that my example was a fairly small one - 6 marines, 5 zerglings, a drone, and a hive. What happens in a late-game assault, when you've got HA against Fades and chambers all over the place? Or in a 30-person server, when a 10-Fade assault heads into the marine spawn to rip some **** up?
Poly budgeting is one of the most important skills a modeler can learn. Any reasonably proficient artist can make a beautiful model with a high enough poly cap... the question is, can you make an equally beautiful model when you're on a tight budget?
They look good and I like remodeling and retexturing practice.