Uncork The Champagne...
bubbleblower
Join Date: 2003-01-18 Member: 12452Members
Join Date: 2003-01-18 Member: 12452Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Obnoxious gloating begins.</div> Ok, I was as happy as everyone else watching them drag that statue down. (I wanted to see the strongman finish the job, but once the scrawny guys started wanting a turn it was going to take too long.)
I was one of those people who opposed the war <i>right this second.</i> I felt that Bush's diplomatic style was going to trash important strategic alliances with a lot of Western allies, and only slighten hasten a war that was going to happen anyway. Time will tell about the alliances, and we'll never know when/if the war would otherwise have occurred.
Today is a happy day for the Iraqis. It is very symbolic, a lot of stuff happening to see and take in. They SHOULD be happy, and I never doubted that they would greatly benefit from this.
But I find myself jovially extending my middle finger to the gloating ba$tards on the news networks. ("Jovially" because I'm still in a light-hearted mood from watching the Iraqis try to take the statue down.) The gloaters are saying things like, "Today if you supported the war you can see that you stood on the right side of history." They're replaying clips of Martin Sheen and Janine Garafolo speaking out against the war, and practically giggling as they insinuate that these people have been proved absolutely wrong.
That's a gross oversimplification. I'd say SOME people have been proved wrong, like the dotard human shields who went over there to stop the war, or the people that thought we'd level the place, or the people that thought the Iraqis wouldn't appreciate a regime change. But that's hardly the majority of what sparked opposition to this war.
Looking at footage from inside Iraq, these people are now "free," but free to do what, is in question. Are they better off? Hell yes, I'd say. But let's see how their enthusiasm level is a few months from now, when everyone has settled down into mundane life again. Their infrastructure is crap, their education level is crap, they're knee deep in crap, basically. It would be horrendously expensive to get them back into the game with any respectable footing, and regardless of intentions, that money isn't there. America is already paying its credit cards with other credit cards.
So here's my prediction, let's hope I'm wrong. In a few months people in Iraq will lose some of their party fervor and start to b|tch about things. People on all sides will argue about whether America is doing all it can to rebuild them, and the sad truth will be that given its finances, America can't do very much either way. Some people will doubtless decide that America isn't doing all it can out of some crusader scheme to impoverish the Arab world with a smiling face, and we'll start hearing that from some of the same people that are jumping up and down cheering today. And, ten bucks says the U.N. and the U.S. are going to bicker like crazy over how to cooperate in re-building Iraq, dropping their efficiency substantially.
Could this stage have been better set up for with a less uneducated, arrogant, condescending diplomatic approach? Hard to say, but still open for debate. Those gloating news anchors can shut up now, the voices of dissent were much broader than what they're making them out to be, and the issues that were being debated will continue to be complex and confusing for years.
I was one of those people who opposed the war <i>right this second.</i> I felt that Bush's diplomatic style was going to trash important strategic alliances with a lot of Western allies, and only slighten hasten a war that was going to happen anyway. Time will tell about the alliances, and we'll never know when/if the war would otherwise have occurred.
Today is a happy day for the Iraqis. It is very symbolic, a lot of stuff happening to see and take in. They SHOULD be happy, and I never doubted that they would greatly benefit from this.
But I find myself jovially extending my middle finger to the gloating ba$tards on the news networks. ("Jovially" because I'm still in a light-hearted mood from watching the Iraqis try to take the statue down.) The gloaters are saying things like, "Today if you supported the war you can see that you stood on the right side of history." They're replaying clips of Martin Sheen and Janine Garafolo speaking out against the war, and practically giggling as they insinuate that these people have been proved absolutely wrong.
That's a gross oversimplification. I'd say SOME people have been proved wrong, like the dotard human shields who went over there to stop the war, or the people that thought we'd level the place, or the people that thought the Iraqis wouldn't appreciate a regime change. But that's hardly the majority of what sparked opposition to this war.
Looking at footage from inside Iraq, these people are now "free," but free to do what, is in question. Are they better off? Hell yes, I'd say. But let's see how their enthusiasm level is a few months from now, when everyone has settled down into mundane life again. Their infrastructure is crap, their education level is crap, they're knee deep in crap, basically. It would be horrendously expensive to get them back into the game with any respectable footing, and regardless of intentions, that money isn't there. America is already paying its credit cards with other credit cards.
So here's my prediction, let's hope I'm wrong. In a few months people in Iraq will lose some of their party fervor and start to b|tch about things. People on all sides will argue about whether America is doing all it can to rebuild them, and the sad truth will be that given its finances, America can't do very much either way. Some people will doubtless decide that America isn't doing all it can out of some crusader scheme to impoverish the Arab world with a smiling face, and we'll start hearing that from some of the same people that are jumping up and down cheering today. And, ten bucks says the U.N. and the U.S. are going to bicker like crazy over how to cooperate in re-building Iraq, dropping their efficiency substantially.
Could this stage have been better set up for with a less uneducated, arrogant, condescending diplomatic approach? Hard to say, but still open for debate. Those gloating news anchors can shut up now, the voices of dissent were much broader than what they're making them out to be, and the issues that were being debated will continue to be complex and confusing for years.
Comments
Personally, I am of the opinion that the UN being involved in Iraq would be a huge disaster, and that the coalition being involved would be a small disaster, unfortunately. I'm sure anyone can tell you what happens when you are governed by committee. I feel like there is only one answer that one like myself, a "For War" protestor/supporter, can give: We must do everything in our power to share food, water, tools, education, and safety with the Iraqi people, and only then will we gain a prosperous, democratic-like, friend of the western world's people kind of society in Iraq. This would be similar to what we have done in the past to aid Israel. I know some might be infuriated with how that place is still inflamatory, and say that Israel would make a bad model, but I say that you can't deny that people from Israel can speak their mind freely, vote in elections freely, and are a prosperous nation. There is also one important difference, Iraq is already a state. Also, this would show that we treat Arabs and Israelis equally and fairly, no prejudice here, we want both of you to be our friends. Later we can use this to help strengthen the political position for peace in Isreal if we show compasion to different groups equally.
I'm going to not buy as many computer games for a while and see what I can do to send some disaster relief aid to the Iraqi people from my cowardly country of Canada, as I do not feel my yellow bellied government represents my values enough to show compassion to the still being liberated people of Iraq.
What are you going to do that supports your stance on this conflict, besides talk? Actions speak louder than words or is that just a silly saying, I leave it up to you to decide, but I know what I'm going to do.
They were having guests on shows who were saying things similar to what you said and the anchormen (and women) were basically just ignoring everything they said and go "oh yeah well we won!", as if it were supposed to be some celebration as grandiouse as the one when ww2 ended..
Lets let our troops get back home before we roll out the ticker-tape...
Aslso, I remember watching TV at the very first day of the war when Bush's ultimatum just expired and there was, again, a commentator talking crap. When it was exactly 2 o'clock am (German time) he interrupted the report which was broadcasted and began to talk in his graveyard-voice as if armaggeddon just started. Like it was a hollywood-catastrophe film.
And that is called journalism?!
(MonsE: I am sorry if my English does not sound native; the reason might be that the English language is not my native language <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Personally, I am of the opinion that the UN being involved in Iraq would be a huge disaster, and that the coalition being involved would be a small disaster, unfortunately. I'm sure anyone can tell you what happens when you are governed by committee. I feel like there is only one answer that one like myself, a "For War" protestor/supporter, can give: We must do everything in our power to share food, water, tools, education, and safety with the Iraqi people, and only then will we gain a prosperous, democratic-like, friend of the western world's people kind of society in Iraq. This would be similar to what we have done in the past to aid Israel. I know some might be infuriated with how that place is still inflamatory, and say that Israel would make a bad model, but I say that you can't deny that people from Israel can speak their mind freely, vote in elections freely, and are a prosperous nation. There is also one important difference, Iraq is already a state. Also, this would show that we treat Arabs and Israelis equally and fairly, no prejudice here, we want both of you to be our friends. Later we can use this to help strengthen the political position for peace in Isreal if we show compasion to different groups equally.
I'm going to not buy as many computer games for a while and see what I can do to send some disaster relief aid to the Iraqi people from my cowardly country of Canada, as I do not feel my yellow bellied government represents my values enough to show compassion to the still being liberated people of Iraq.
What are you going to do that supports your stance on this conflict, besides talk? Actions speak louder than words or is that just a silly saying, I leave it up to you to decide, but I know what I'm going to do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been involved in two humanitarian policing missions (haiti and cuba), and in both cases we were military forces helping the civilian population. I think that your point applies to badly trained or undisciplined armies, really.
As for the UN, I am undecided. But their historical track record is utterly abysmal, I agree.
I just did my taxes today. I have contributed $30,000 USD (43,678.96 CAD) to the federal government this year, so I've almost certainly made some contribution to the Iraqi liberation at this point. But I also donated $1000 to the Red Cross as well, and that cash is bound for Iraq as we speak. I agree that people need to stop waving posters, yellow ribbons, water bongs, etc. and start actually doing something. For me, it's money that turns into food and medicine. For others, it might be time. But put your (insert thing here) where your mouths are.
huah!
go MonsE
They were having guests on shows who were saying things similar to what you said and the anchormen (and women) were basically just ignoring everything they said and go "oh yeah well we won!", as if it were supposed to be some celebration as grandiouse as the one when ww2 ended..
Lets let our troops get back home before we roll out the ticker-tape... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was unaware that US news networks could be so uproffesional and childish... Im thankful I live in the UK where we can watch the Unbiased glory that is BBC News 24. We still have not 'won' this war yet. There are still 3 Divisions of The republican Guard that are still unnacounted for in the north of Iraq, saddam and his cohorts are all missing and there will still be some fierce fighting ahead for the Coalition...
apart from the fact that EVERYTHING is biased, the BBC CERTAINLY puts a slant on pretty much everything war related, besides which most of the actual developments are given in terms of the 'garbage rhetoric' layed out by the US/UK governments.
apart from the fact that EVERYTHING is biased, the BBC CERTAINLY puts a slant on pretty much everything war related, besides which most of the actual developments are given in terms of the 'garbage rhetoric' layed out by the US/UK governments. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it may be a little biased (usually in favour of the iraqi people) but compare it to how biased the US networks are then its nowhere near as close.
Yes it may be a little biased (usually in favour of the iraqi people) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
:rolleyes: