If You Want To Learn The Best Strats, Join A Clan
arjungita
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10928Members
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10928Members
It's interesting to read these forums every now and then, and I can honestly tell you that all the marine and alien tactics that are posted have been used and/or discarded by the competitive clan teams LONG ago. I know a lot of stuff comes as an epiphany to pub players, and when I only played pub these forums were very, very useful but just as a point of clarification for any NS players that really want to bring their game to another level, you need to join a clan and play matches in OGL and CAL (UGL whenever it starts).
Play competitively, scrim against other clans and you will learn 500 times more than just playing in a pub, it is not the same game. Clans don't post their strategies for obvious reasons, you'll only learn what works best by having it used on you, which can be painful
That's why it's so humorous to read posts by comm's claiming "I've only lost one game and that was when this happened" and such. In match play, even the best comm will lose quite often, and that comm is actually better for it because he has learned something. Comming pub games isn't going to get you anything other than a false sense of ability or nerve racking frustration.
Anyway, there are a lot of great pub players with lots of Raw talent out there, I just wanted to perhaps awaken some of you to the reality that you aren't as good as you think/post, and if you want to really reach your potential you should check out the clan competitive scene.
As always our server welcomes all players at www.clansid.org. Happy hunting
Play competitively, scrim against other clans and you will learn 500 times more than just playing in a pub, it is not the same game. Clans don't post their strategies for obvious reasons, you'll only learn what works best by having it used on you, which can be painful
That's why it's so humorous to read posts by comm's claiming "I've only lost one game and that was when this happened" and such. In match play, even the best comm will lose quite often, and that comm is actually better for it because he has learned something. Comming pub games isn't going to get you anything other than a false sense of ability or nerve racking frustration.
Anyway, there are a lot of great pub players with lots of Raw talent out there, I just wanted to perhaps awaken some of you to the reality that you aren't as good as you think/post, and if you want to really reach your potential you should check out the clan competitive scene.
As always our server welcomes all players at www.clansid.org. Happy hunting
Comments
If you want to learn the best strats for a clan-game, join a clan.
If you want to learn the best strats for a pub-game, join a good pub and/or read these forums.
The two most common forms of feedback from self-professed elite-clanners:
1. (After complaining that a certain strat won't work). Wow, never seen that strat work :o
2. (After Commanding) That always works, my marines sucked.
Two be quite honest I am less then impressed with the eliteness of "clan" players. I've played in "clans" (I prefer to call them teams) for 3 years in CS (#1 on the swedish CB for a while), it doesn't take <b>anything</b> to be in a clan. Any moron with an internet connection can join or start a clan. Trust me, I've played against them.
People that fail to recognise the difference between clan play and pub play really won't contribute much to the discussion, not that I am accusing you of being such a person, but your statement doesn't have anyting in it that tells me you <b>do</b> differentiate between them. A pub game is <b>not</b> a clan game with more and/or not as good players. It is a totally different dynamic.
For example, one of my friends is <b>by far</b> the best pub CS player in the world IMO. On a public server he will just dominate. I rank him higher then HeatoN, Potti, Vesslan, KSHarp etc. He bloody stinks in matches though. Not a single good (as in top) clan wants him even though he will show up at their own servers and either beat them black and blue or get banned for "cheating".
Bottom line is, they are different. You can of course learn stuff from either and apply at the other, but you can <b>not</b> simply convert the experience of one type into the other and expect it to work.
Many clans tend to isolate themselves from the rest of the game-playing community, either because they find that...
<ul>
<li>it's too difficult to win in an uncontrolled environment
<li>they don't get to use their favourite strategy
<li>they don't like coloured people
</ul>
Don't join a clan, but by all means, if you spot a gifted player, <b>humbly</b> ask them:
'<i>Master, may I serve as your humble apprentice so that I may become as good as you one day?</i>'
If you really think that you can learn alot from being in a clan, stick some abstract letters in brackets before your name like [DUH], and see if you become a better player overnight.
Competitive play is not the holy grail of NS, but it is most definately without question and beyond a shadow of a doubt a higher level of play.
<b>The POINT of my post</b> however, was to let pub players know there's a whole other level of NS in competitive play. Pub play is raw, its unorganized, its shoe string tactics. Being in a clan for CS has no relevance to NS unfortunately, entirely different game. You are obviously embittered by competitive players comments on these boards, I have no idea what type of pompous statements and claims they make, but you should play competitively in NS and just see what you are missing.
I didn't post to preach that clan play is more fun, that's subjective to the player. I posted because some people like yourself seem to think that pub play is what NS is all about, is all it CAN be about and you are sorely mistaken. So go your own way and keep flaming competitive posters but you are the one who is missing out.
No it is not. The basic premises of pub play is so different from clan play that it is not the same game, thus experiences from one can not be simply transferred to the other.
In clan play you have a static group of people with a fairly homogenous skill level who before the game already know what to do and who know and trust eachother. If you are organised you will also know what you are up agains, who the better players on the other team are, what they like to do and what their common strats and tactics are.
In a pub game you have a random number of players who probably don't know eachother and all have different ideas of what to do and how to do it. The number of players will vary <b>during</b> the game as will the skill level and dedication of them.
You can be the best COM in the world in a clan game and suck at Commanding pub games, actually, I bet that <b>is</b> the case with the best clan COM's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I posted because some people like yourself seem to think that pub play is what NS is all about, is all it CAN be about and you are sorely mistaken.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know where you get that idea, actually I do, you made it up! That is <b>your</b> percieved reason for people who don't want to join a clan or play clan games. I don't really have anything <b>against</b> joining a clan (other then the fact that the vast majority of them are made up on totally uninteresting and stupid people that I would never associate myself with IRLm oh, and the fact that I've only been approached by US clans which means my ping will be 200-300 which is ok for pub play but not for match play).
Thing is that a good pub game is more <b>fun</b> then a good clan game, at least to me (and, I bet, the majority of players). Trying to execute a plan to perfection is not as fun to me as the stimuli I get from trying to adapt to the rapidly and chaotically changing situation (on all levels) that is pub play. Add to that the fact that I like to meet new people and get to know them and there is really a lot more I get out of clan games then pub games.
I have a <b>lot</b> of clan experience so I do know what I am talking about.
Now, as a counter-suggestion.
Why don't you and all your clan friends (not ment in a derogatory way) learn to play public? I know you (generic 'you') claim to be great at it but really you are not. Here's what you need to do to become a good pub player:
- Have realistic expectations. An average pub player may not have the skills you are used to, so don't expect them to.
- Get a good attitude. There is a plethora of clan players who think that only their way works, everyone else sucks and they are God's gift to the server. If you really have to think that, at least learn to communicate it in a polite and non-offensive manner. Saying "You suck COM, TF in base is stupid" try saying "COM, I can stay and defend base myself so you can save your res for upgrades and stuff". I guarantee you it will get a better response.
- Help people. There are many ways to do this, offer tips, share your knowledge, be a good teamplayer etc.
- Have fun. On a pub it is not all about winning or perfecting your strategy, if you go in with that attitude you will not have fun. I think everyone should <b>try</b> to win, but if you play the cards you are dealt and have fun doing it you have already won no matter what the outcome of the game is.
It's very easy to win as marines in the first 4 (yes 4) minutes by spawn-camping, but that is obviously not the intent of the game. Similarly, pubs have the issue of a skulk rush winning the game in the first few minutes as well, and I'm sure most of you already see the problems with that. Honestly, match play is just an exercise in frustration unless the rounds last more than ten minutes (rare, but great). Winning isn't all that it takes to be happy, you know.
I'd much rather play the game as Flayra sees it, rather than play on its flaws.
66.93.132.252
or ns.fresh.org
Your post indicates, actually states, that what works best in Clan games is what works best in Pub games. The topic reads "If You Want To Learn The Best Strats, Join A Clan" and in the context it is pretty clear that such is your opinion. Now, obviously, if you don't recognise the error in that, then no, you do not "know how to play pubs". Unless of course, you play Pubs completely different then you do matches, which would invalidate your first statement.
I play for fun.
After leading a top 10 clan, nG, and am now a member in a top 5 clan I can tell you there isnt a HUGE difference between pub play and clan play. Only difference is good teamwork. Trust me "any idiot with an internet connection could be in a clan" is true in CS try that in NS and you'll be raped. It doesnt take just good players in NS it takes great teamwork, stragety, and skills. GG.
The JP/HMG rush is currently just the most efficient and powerful tactic in 1.04, and when you're playing to win and not have fun, that's the one you're going to use.
Stone, jetpack/hmg rush will work on pub or clan play, just depends on if you have people that are good at jetpacking.
It is true in both CS and NS; my point is that just because you are in a clan doesn't mean you are any good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It doesnt take just good players in NS it takes great teamwork, stragety, and skills. GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just as in CS: Except it takes more teamwork and less strategy in CS. GG.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Stone, jetpack/hmg rush will work on pub or clan play, just depends on if you have people that are good at jetpacking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> X will work if you have people that are good at X. Replace "jetpack/hmg" rush with your favorite tactic.
The reason that the jp/hmg rush is so effective is:
- it doesn't need any teamwork, just one skilled player.
- if there are enough players, it doesn't need any strategy
- most alien players don't realise what to do against it/how to play
- it doesn't need any teamwork, just one skilled player.
- if there are enough players, it doesn't need any strategy
- most alien players don't realise what to do against it/how to play
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong on all accounts against a good alien team. On a pub a rambo jetpacker can take out 3 hives by himself, in a match a rambo jetpacker will get lerked.
Trust me "any idiot with an internet connection could be in a clan" is true in CS try that in NS and you'll be raped.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is true in both CS and NS; my point is that just because you are in a clan doesn't mean you are any good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll agree to that. You'd be surprised how many people are in clans with no skill. By raped I mean coming up against a decent clan. Altho CS takes MORE teamwork than NS? You should rethink that one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->CS takes MORE teamwork than NS? You should rethink that one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't need to re-think it, I have thought about it a lot and my conclusion was that: CS at top level demands more teamwork, NS demands more strategy. Maybe your definition differs from mine, I don't know. Check some demo's with SK.swe (any), esu (recent), GoL (old) if you want to see my definition of teamwork.
me and my clan, #cri, scrimmed against STD a while ago.. as usual they did the initial jp lmg rush...
it didnt work, we had 2 "elite" lerks who took the jpers down....
after a while, they decided to bring hmg jps to our hive. the count was .. 5...
5 hmg jps, all of STD (good players) went for our maint hive... we had maint with 3+ ocs at bottom, and every single of us taking out the jpers... their strat didnt work, our 2 "elite" lerks were scaring em off, and killing em, while our skulks would kill thier rts, or.. as i did, i killed 2 jpers while they were flying down for ammo..
the hmg jp rush can be countered if u have a good team that works together... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Clan play is just different than pub play. I would say that atm NS clan play is more <i>refined</i> than pub play. I would not necessarily say it was a higher form. CS clan play is a higher form than pub play. Because they are essentially the same, but with much more teamwork and skill. NS clan play and pub play are almost entirely different from what I can see. Half the fun of a pub game is not knowing what you'll get. When strategy starts becomming more important (within a game system, eg. CS vs NS), clan matches become less and less like pub matches. CS clan matches are fun because its all skill. NS clan matches... I'm not confinced yet. It's all the same and not enough systems in place for skill to really tell (less skill telling in the FPS front is IMO good for the kind of game NS is). Once NS becomes more elegant, freeform and forgiving (the <b>best</b> RTS competitive games are ones where you get a good comeback) in clan play, then you could say it was a higher form of pub NS. 'Til then, all you've got is refinement, and many woud say you lose alot of the good parts during that refinement.
We'll have to ask someone who has been in GOOD clans in NS and CS, since I never bothered with CS clans I can't say that Im a good source.
Now, in this demo esu get's *owned*. SK wins 12-0. Why?
The esu players are the same that a couple of months later beat everyone and won the biggest Swedish lan competition ever. (The 10 best clans were invited).
It's the same players, it's just that when they met SK in the demo they had only played together for a weak. The strategy didn't change, neither did the skill level. They just got their teamwork together. When they first met SK they hadn't played together for more then a week.
If you watch the demo (which is very laggy unfortunately) you will see that small things decide every round. SK always know where they have eachother, all reactions to events , even on the other side of the map, are instant. Check out Potti, he knows exactly where he has all his teammates AND the enemies all the time. Esu on the other hand have problems with timing and generally don't know eachother very well, when an esu player dies the others don't react as quick or correct as the SK people do.
Check out how SK helps eachother all the time with standard backup, indirect fire, grenades and flashbangs. One guy sees the enemy, 1 second later two of his teammates are shooting through walls and bouncing grenades off of boxes to help him.
Well, if you know what to look for you will find very clear examples in that demo.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do I have to retype the 3 points you made about jetpack/hmg rush so that you understand what "wrong on all accounts" means?
And what you call teamwork everyone else calls coordination. Competitive CS play isn't about teamwork as much as its about a finite number of situations and how to deal with them. The game is decided less by teamwork and strategy then by tactical play, guided by absolute decisions based on efficiency and probability. Do we really need to argue this point, this thread had nothing to do with CS anyway. You brought CS into the thread to build some sort of credibility for your opinion, you might as well have said you were top 10 in a Warcraft ladder and understand resource management better.
Calantus I agree with your description as more "refined" and not necessarily a higher form of play, that is much better than how I worded it.
As for NS, I think being a grunt or a skulk are probably very similar in pubs and match play (with the exception that in pubs the skill levels are completely random).
I've not played in an NS clan matches, but from what I have heard commanding in a match and pub would be quite different.
- it doesn't need any teamwork, just one skilled player.
- if there are enough players, it doesn't need any strategy
- most alien players don't realise what to do against it/how to play
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wrong on all accounts against a good alien team. On a pub a rambo jetpacker can take out 3 hives by himself, in a match a rambo jetpacker will get lerked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since you're being so difficult I guess I will have to show you...
Do you not see how you contradict yourself? I say that the reason the strategy works on pubs is that most alien teams aren't very "good" and that it only takes one good marine to pull it off (that's a simplification to fit you). You then say that I am *wrong* because on a pub a jetpacker can take out 3 hives but in a match he will get lerked... D'oh!!!
I'm giving up on you. I realise you didn't want a discussion, aren't able to understand my arguments and don't seem to know what teamwork is (here's a hint: 1+1=3) so let's just let this topic die. It was only started so you could feel "elite" and remind everyone how good/fun it is to play with a NS clan.. which is why the clan scene in NS must be dying.. d'oh.
Actually, I think that is a good summary of this thread: d'oh