haha yeh <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> good point froggeh if you build turrets most undoubtly aliens will get a second hive <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> MAHAHAHAH
Thats another thing, why is the aliens getting a second hive such a bad thing? I mean everyone I know acts like the second aliens get a second hive its the end of the game. Fact is most marine games are won after the aliens have captured a second hive. How many games do you seriously play and the aliens only have one hive? Come on now, either that alien team is completely filled with new players, or they are completely incompetent. Aliens almost always get a second hive REGARDLESS of wether or not you built a turret.
Now i Know there are exceptions to this, I have been in many a game where my team captured 2 hives and easily locked down the final hive. It happens, just not when the aliens are good. Also, why be afraid of the aliens getting fades? seriously? they aren't that much of a threat if you have a cohesive battle plan. For example:
say you're playing eclipse
: start move guys to station acces alpha keep two back for base :2 mines packs :2 IP :1 armory :Satellite
Secure alpha 1: res node
go to triad with team of five marines ( i assume you play a bigger server, if not, well scale the number to your liking) from station access alph 1: res node 1: Phase gate, main base
Move to eclipse 1: phase gate, eclipse :1 tf :res node :move all marines to eclipse :drop 4 turrets
Now you have set yourself up for some good strategy to take the other two hives
Assuming the aliens might have taken down one of your res nodes (probably station access alpha) you need base upgrades :upgrade armory :upgrade armor :Proto lab
Use your marines that are at eclipse and split them into two equal forces. one gaurds eclipse the other needs to resecure the four res (Main base, station access alpha, Triad, Eclipse, if you want throw in Horseshoe) nodes.
While this action is goign on you have a steady stream of income, and a mined off base. When your upgrades are done do the following
:research JP :upgrade weapons :motion sensors (if you have the ability to)
Now you have the ability to make an effective strike force. Since your armor and weapon lvl 1 upgrades go relatively fast you should have these at least at lvl 2 by now.
This is the beginning of a useful battle plan. Of course this isn't set in stone and obviously you need to adapt to teh level of aliens you are playing
please don't send another message looking like this: "well i send in 5 skulks and kill the main base, hahaha because you built turrets, hahaha Such a comment isn't USEFUL for the strategy forum. Try and find a strat that would pierce this early to mid game battle plan. Notice i didn't say this is all that is needed. Obviously if you need to make a push heavies will play a great role and some other thing will be added.
However the key important thing is that with this strat you haven't really slowed down the marines momentum, and you are able to move to next hive.
DISCLAIMER!!!!! If the aliens build fades: Don't panic, fades aren't that good. REPEAT fades are easy to kill if you have a group of marines that work in concert with each other (I know this is hard to understand marines helping each other out and working together). IF the aliens have fades by the time you are in eclipse (which means you are a very slow commander) you need to skip the jp portion and delay the weapons and armor upgrades to advance to heavies asap. This will give you marines an increased moral, and if your heavies work together with their HMG/Welders they should be able to utterly stop the fades from being a threat. (this requires comm to abuse the med pac /ammo ability so that the heavies can repair and get healed while fighting off fades, this is very important).
If you are unfortunate to have only lmgs to fight fades, and don't have the capacity to start going to heavies, then skip the jps and start reinforcing your two main points, base (if it is being hit hard), eclipse, or if your base is being demolished relocate to eclipse. Now by reinforce i mean build up to 4 more turrets in eclipse Making a total of 8. Then you should have some money to buy weapons and armor upgrades. Research them to lvl 2 so that your basic marine can go toe to toe with the fades. Now have your marins split up into teams and gaurd the entrances of the most important area.
If you are at this point then you are probably in some bad shape, the marines lost their momentum and fades are about to try and really push on eclipse (or other way around) buy maybe 2 grenade launchers one for each team at the entrances. While your marines (if good) are holding at bay the fades you should be researching heavy armor.
If you get your heavy armor working there are only two things you really need. heavy armor and welders. HMGs would be nice buy you need as many people in HA/Weld combinations that you can get to decrease marine casualties and increase chances of stopping the onslaught of fades. With your heavies hopefully holding back the fades, get your HMGS to your best fighters your most cooperative players. Ammo up and start moving to Comm to get a 2nd hive. Its important that you DO NOT RUSH your HA progress. You need to go slowly. Every 10meters or so make sure your heavies are armored up with plenty of ammo to spare, and full health. While you are waiting for marines to do this upgrade your armor.
Once you reach the Comm hive (i think its comm if its not then hell, screw me). wait outside and build a phase gate. after that build a TF. After that build a seige, you don't want to lose a single HA. In order to do that you have to spend a couple resources to protect your HA from structural damage from Of. Towers and Fades that have pooled in the 2nd hive.
With your sieges blaring away at the hive move in your grenade launchers, followed by your HMGS followed by a bunch of marines repariing the HA's. At this point drop health and ammo al over the place, your marines will need it.
If all goes well you shuold have mopped up the 2nd hive. Establish a base of command and progress to the third hive using the same strategy i outlined above.
I want you to notice how I used my strat. I started with mines for defense and slowly moved to turrets to help defend. I didn't FARM, nor did i waste tons of resources wasting away on futile things like every res node the marines came across. If there is a flaw somewhere here please post it to me, I think this is the perfect plan to integrate both mines and turrets. Add on to this strat or say what doesn't make sense so I can clarify and we, as a community, can evolve a strategy that uses both turrets and mines. Thanks
Now to all you haters out there don't give me posts like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Well if your building turrets, the aliens will probably get fades. -haha yeh good point froggeh if you build turrets most undoubtly aliens will get a second hive MAHAHAHAH -I don't like this idea too many problems of which I won't name. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are not helpful to the readers out there, not helpful to me, not helpful to you. I know its hard to come up with a USEFUL strategy, and I know its harder to find LEGITIMATE reasons why a strategy doesn't work. Pithy remarks that are one liners don't solve the problem of how best to use mines and turrets. Insight would be nice to have and many you the posters here give it. Please now I ask that you put your knowledge and focus it on the plan I wrote above. This way we have something to GIVE to the NS community.
This isn't a flame post, its my strat that I think is a pretty good back bone strat. Tell me how you would change it to best fit your style of commanding. I swear though don't give some one line argument and try to pass it off as strategy.
Sure, I can handle fades, even with no special gear. Anyone can. They're strong, but manageable. You are correct on that.
There is a slight problem though. At hive 2, aliens do not only get fades, they also get umbra. And web. It's the umbra + fades + offensive webbing (a gorge coming along with the fades/lerks and spamming webs at the feet of the marines during the fight) combo that's pretty overwhelming for marines (after fighting skulks exclusively and maybe a lerk or two for most of the game) unless they have enough RPs to gear out a good chunk of their team in HA + HMG/GL + welder.
Hive 2 is still GG unless it comes pretty late and the marines have been teching, upgrading and piling RPs for a while.
He's right, the other day, playing on ns_bast. We had two hives up but our wonderful gorge (HATE YOU V-MAN HATE YOU!!oneone) had decided the m/s/d chambers would be appropriate. They had FULL upgrades, but yet we still managed to wrestle engine room back. An offensive gorge would web any incoming threats, a defensive gorge was CONSTANTLY heal spraying, a lerk would umbra then a couple fades were acid spamming like madmen, dispite the fact that one clip of lmg fire could kill us, we still wonover through teamwork. Even without carapace or healing bases. Teamwork works!
If you don't mind, i'm going to comment over ATI's post:
: start move guys to station acces alpha keep two back for base :2 mines packs :2 IP :1 armory :Satellite 1: res node 1: res node 1: Phase gate, main base <---- Aliens have carapace now 1: phase gate, eclipse :1 tf :res node :move all marines to eclipse :drop 4 turrets <---- Aliens have anti-JP defences now :Arms lab :upgrade armory :upgrade armor <---- 2nd hive is going up now :Proto lab :research JP <---- Hives are webbed now :upgrade weapons <---- Aliens have fades :motion sensors (if you have the ability to) <---- Are not about to save you
This is why there is no res to waste on turrets when the job can be done adequately by marines and mines. Securing eclipse in your example offers you no tactical advantage other than a res node, because aliens do not need 3 hives to kill you. In spending the time and res on turreting EC you have only succeeded in giving the Aliens more free time to build and control most of the map. If you don't believe me on the timings of this i can only suggest you try some 6v6 matchplay against experienced teams. If you don't believe me about the game being over when the aliens have 2 webbed, defended hives, and fades are about to hit your mine-defended main while you are just dropping jetpacks, then i will suggest the same. You are stuck in a defensive mindset, you move somewhere and defend, move again and defend. By putting yourself constantly on the defensive you take all pressure off the alien team and give them the map.
I'll assume you play pubs, so try this - take a look at the pub Alien playstyle. A pub alien team is constantly offensive, it rushes from the beginning of the game and it continually harasses a marine team who sit on the defensive waiting for it. Now consider alien expansion against your defensive playstyle. While this harassment is going on, gorges basically wander the map carefree, dropping res nodes and upgrade chambers with 0 turrets covering their hive or their res. They spend no resources on defense untill later in the game, because you are making no attempt to attack them. You are being defensive, so they dont have to, and the res they save because of this is ploughed straight back into their tech. By defending, you invite them to attack your structures and harass your res nodes, meanwhile you give them free access to any res node they want other than the 2-3 you are sitting on.
Imagine an alien team that played like you do, all sitting in their hive waiting for you to come to them. Gingerishly pressing out of their base once or twice to cap a res node and cover it in OCs. As the marine team against these aliens you have free map control, you can take any res node you like and spend all your res on teching as fast as you can. What is more, you only need 1 marine to sit back and build structures, so what are the rest of them going to do? They can rush off to the alien hive and start killing things. You are playing like this alien team, and it doesn't make sense. The killer is, in NS's current state its the aliens who should be cowering in their base fearful of your rush because prior to carapace marines >> aliens.
But the aliens aren't cowering in their base because they have become accustomed to public server marines teams who wont attack their main hive untill they have every upgrade in the game. You don't use your early game advantage, and you let the aliens have full carapace (ie. you aren't in there killing their gorge and their DCs). With carapace up your chance for early game pressure is wasted. You are teching to jetpacks, but by trying to turret and defend hives and res nodes (and by not delaying the aliens) you have slowed your tech down to the point where, by the time you are ready to drop JPs, they have very little chance of succesfully killing a hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fact is most marine games are won after the aliens have captured a second hive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is simply a lie, i don't have any other way of explaining it to you. Even pub games are usually won by a rush or a 2 hive lockdown. An alien team that does not win very quickly after the 2nd hive is up has either been delayed a great deal by the marines (Which you are making no attempt to do) or is not making a serious effort to finish you. The latter being a common trait of public servers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens almost always get a second hive REGARDLESS of wether or not you built a turret. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also false, a well performed JP rush hits before a 2nd hive will be up. A public server 2 hive lockdown naturally prevents a 2nd hive. And rushes by either team will frequently end the game prior to 2 hive tech. The only reason Aliens get 2 hives in your example is because you are unnecessarily defensive and make no attempt to stop them. Your problem is nothing to do with the choice of turrets or mines, the very concept of your strat is flawed. Turrets are required in your strat, but the only reason they are required is because you sit back and allow the aliens to get so strong that you need turrets. I suggest you go rent the matrix on DVD, then "Free your mind" and realise that not only do marines not have to be about defense, they are actually better played as an offensive side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "4-5 skulks can easily circle strafe a couple turrets and kill them all in 8-10 bites each and take out the TF). That logic is correct....assuming that you don't have marines in the area. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the early game, if you have marines in the area then you have no need for turrets anyway and you might as well not place any. Marine >>> uncarapaced skulk. Turrets by themselves dont defend an area against anything. Turrets and marines will stop anything in the early game, but so will marines + mines, or just marines by themselves. Consequently there is no early game situation where you can justify spending the 70-100 res required for a basic TF + turret formation. There are much better things to spend the res on.
Basically, don't let the aliens (or marines for that matter) dictate the pace of the game.
Re: ATI's post, teching up to meet fades is a viable strat (my usual on the rare occasions when I command) but doing only what you've said there will get you killed.
You need to be getting RTs, mining them up and moving on. Eventually secure one hive. That’s all Ok.
The key point is during all this you need to be putting pressure on the aliens, forcing them to spend res and time defending rather then attacking you, thereby allowing you to tech up. When fades arrive you should be on even footing, and eventually you'll have a fully equipped and teched team that will fight the fades back to their hive.
Also, in your example your getting weapon and armour upgrades far too late. Cara skulks will be owning you left right and centre, costing <b>you</b> time and res you can ill afford. You'll drop JPs and HMGs in your example build but without upgrades their just moving res sinks for the aliens to kill. I would say IMO you need level 2 upgrades, some HMGs and at least one GL by the time fades arrive, JPs optional. If you've not bought time for yourself by killing DCS and RTs and going gorge hunting the fades will come knocking before you can handle them.
1-hive lockdown and tech up is a viable strat, but if your gonna do it do it right.
in 100% agreement with TeoH here (secretly I want to have his babies but keep it to yourself).
Far too few marine teams I've seen are willing to spread out and attack. By spread out I don't mean everyone ramboing, however.
Defense IS important, but not as important as offense in the early marine game.
After all if you don't go out of the base, you're not going to get any res points yourself are you?? (<-- over simplified for those who don't get what I've said above)
Roo
Plus my 2p worth on turrets - when turrets are placed before 2 or 3 res points are built, it's game over for marines if they are NOT making ground over the map and forcing the aliens to defend. FWIW if I find a comm placing turrets at base in the first 100 res, they're gone. Either out of chair or fully booted. Sadly, by that point they've already lost the game. :/
A TF and turrets is <i>far</i> too much of your beginning 100 resources for how much protection it provides to your base. One Marine is as good as 4 turrets and a TF, and he's free. You can either spend 40 res on your TF and Turrets or use that 40 res on, say, an Arms Lab which provides you with a distinct advantage over the Aliens whereever you go, not just in your base.
Ask most clannies what they'd pick and instantly they'll tell you Arms Lab. Weapons upgrades are just so much more useful to anyone that knows how to play Marine right. Turrets are unreliable and too expensive.
Then again, if you're playing with Marines that can't hit the broad side of a barn, turrets might be the way to go. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Roobubba+Mar 28 2003, 11:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roobubba @ Mar 28 2003, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> FWIW if I find a comm placing turrets at base in the first 100 res, they're gone. Either out of chair or fully booted. Sadly, by that point they've already lost the game. :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whilst I too have a "Why ? We don't need it yet ?" kneejerk response to an early TF/turrets, I also have to respect the commander. He/she was the one who got in the chair and hence has the responsibilty for making decisions. If he/she wants a TF in base i'll ask why, i'll possibly think its a bad idea but i'll still build the damn thing.
I do respect you Roo, but what your saying is just wrong. Your dictating how the marines should play just because your the server admin, and thats out of order. Sure, try and eject them if u want, although its a bit premature isn't it to eject someone just because you disagree with an early TF ?
But kicked of the server ? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I do give warning, and will only kick them if they do not respond to questions why. I didn't mention that above and maybe I should have. The only thing worse than wasting res is having a commander who doesn't communicate.
I should clarify I'm not against a TF at base, if the situation requires one. Any commander who comes on (typically names like NSPlayer I am referring to) and just dumps a TF in base after 1 ip, then doesn't explain that they have a strategy is wasting the time of all concerned, including the aliens who mop up a rag tag game 2 minutes after it has started. That's no fun for anyone, so it's better to nip the problem in the bud.
HOWEVER if a commander clearly explains that they have a strategy (even if they don't tell us what it is, that's fine), then I will listen and respect them totally.
Okie-dokey. Just seemed from your first post early TF = kick. Alls well though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'l try and pop by your server sometime and introduce myself LMG style <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've had enough of you idiots. Lets play a game somewhere and I'll command. Ill build my turrets and base defense and you see how long it takes you to break it all down and start chewing on the base... then you command and watch me blow up mine after mine after mine untill we all get into the base.
I have come to the conclusion that no ammount of words AT ALL, NO MATTER WHAT, will be able to settle this.
And at that I never said that i was arguing against using mines and/or turrets. This whole thing was a question asking whats wrong with any turrets anywhere period. I always build a TF and turrets in key locations such as base and captured hives and i STILL always give out mines to defend RTs and temp footholds.
Both are viable as defense and in some cases offense. Alone they have weaknesses but together with good placement are even better.
Now stop saying turrets are worthless or that mines are the absolute best thing in the game and your a n00b for not using them. All of the structures weapons and everythign else is in the game for a reason.
I have mentioned this in the other billion turrets are good posts.
Turrets are good IF they are used in conjunction with mines so then you dont have skulks circle stafing them. THEN they are very useful, infact on most games i see whenever there is a turret farm at an near hive location, it lasts a very long time. This is because there are marines there, and allow me to refer to another post for my argument. "Turrets are a static defense a human player is a dynamic defense, it reacts differently in certain situations. A fade is jumping out from behind a wall and aciding the turret, a marine appears, suddenly the fade cannot use this tactic because the dynamic defense is reacting to counter this tactic."
Problem solved, get a defense monkey. n00bs are exceptionally useful in this regard, especially if you put an emphasis on them learning team work.
And i tried a circle strafe with celerity3 and its very hard to avoid being shot, you mighten get shot often, but your not invincible.
If you have 3 turrets and two skulks are circle strafing turrets, there still another turret laying into them, it isnt hard to track a skulk moving in a small circle, especially for turrets.
Mines can be effective, but they have their problems.
A minefield must be maintained. A building or door that has several mines around it will be open to attack after only a single mine is destroyed. Turrets are harder to kill with proper placement. Resource towers can be mined. My usual tactic to deal with that is to run on the ceiling, get above the resource tower, and drop down. I may get killed, but that's after the tower is gone. Of course, unless the mines around the bottom are good you can just eat the lower part. Just like with turrets, avoid unprotected sides. Mines tend to have far more unprotected sides.
Also, turrets can shoot anything. Mines are against melee attacks and vent travel only. Do not leave a mined base without a defender, or you may find out one side of the base has become a WoL built there by a gorge who didn't have any trouble with those mines around your IP/phase.
<!--QuoteBegin--wlibaers+Mar 28 2003, 02:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wlibaers @ Mar 28 2003, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Resource towers can be mined. My usual tactic to deal with that is to run on the ceiling, get above the resource tower, and drop down. I may get killed, but that's after the tower is gone <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's actually not too difficult to jump off the RT with your last bite. Just keep your eye on it's health and when theres no 'bars' left I think 2 more bites finish it off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've had enough of you idiots.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
like i said if you confront kittens with proof why turrets suck hell get defensive/offensive and call you an idiot (anyone that said turrets suck he called an idiot on page 5) and kittens i played with you last night on nano gridlock
WE GOT SLAUGHTERED! you built yer damn turrets in docking wing. What happened to them? they died and so did we.(even tho i slaughtered most aliens that came into docking wing or base)
so maybe the reason he got kicked wasnt because turrets suck but because he is childish and immature?
Turrets in general are a bad idea because they only block hive 1 aliens, which LMG marines with upgrades totally destroy, and die very fast to fades. I disagree with mining the main but mining undefended res towers is a great idea (it only takes a few ticks to get the res back).
Instead of all those mines and turrets that you could have spammed in the main, you could get upgrades and extra res nodes really fast, then go for an old school tech rush.
If marine skill and teamplay is high, turrets are worthless and mines should be used carefully. If n00bs (i.e. people who never follow orders) abound, they are a good precaution.
well it seems the rest of us are discussing turrets in a sensible way whatever kittens says.
Don't forget that a decent level 3 damage turret farm will aid your defending marines when being attacked by fades and lerks (except for that darned umbra, rwar!), they're not <i>completely</i> useless. It's just such a shame they're sometimes overused. I'd rather trust my decent shooting marines until I can actually AFFORD to get the turrets up. It's a balance between affording to put turrets and not being able to afford losing phase/res, a balance very intricately dependant on the accuracy and talent of your marines. Adapt and prosper <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--ATI+Mar 28 2003, 01:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ATI @ Mar 28 2003, 01:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats another thing, why is the aliens getting a second hive such a bad thing? I mean everyone I know acts like the second aliens get a second hive its the end of the game. Fact is most marine games are won after the aliens have captured a second hive. How many games do you seriously play and the aliens only have one hive? Come on now, either that alien team is completely filled with new players, or they are completely incompetent. Aliens almost always get a second hive REGARDLESS of wether or not you built a turret.
Now i Know there are exceptions to this, I have been in many a game where my team captured 2 hives and easily locked down the final hive. It happens, just not when the aliens are good. Also, why be afraid of the aliens getting fades? seriously? they aren't that much of a threat if you have a cohesive battle plan. For example:
say you're playing eclipse
: start move guys to station acces alpha keep two back for base :2 mines packs :2 IP :1 armory :Satellite
Secure alpha 1: res node
go to triad with team of five marines ( i assume you play a bigger server, if not, well scale the number to your liking) from station access alph 1: res node 1: Phase gate, main base
Move to eclipse 1: phase gate, eclipse :1 tf :res node :move all marines to eclipse :drop 4 turrets
Now you have set yourself up for some good strategy to take the other two hives
Assuming the aliens might have taken down one of your res nodes (probably station access alpha) you need base upgrades :upgrade armory :upgrade armor :Proto lab
Use your marines that are at eclipse and split them into two equal forces. one gaurds eclipse the other needs to resecure the four res (Main base, station access alpha, Triad, Eclipse, if you want throw in Horseshoe) nodes.
While this action is goign on you have a steady stream of income, and a mined off base. When your upgrades are done do the following
:research JP :upgrade weapons :motion sensors (if you have the ability to)
Now you have the ability to make an effective strike force. Since your armor and weapon lvl 1 upgrades go relatively fast you should have these at least at lvl 2 by now.
This is the beginning of a useful battle plan. Of course this isn't set in stone and obviously you need to adapt to teh level of aliens you are playing
please don't send another message looking like this: "well i send in 5 skulks and kill the main base, hahaha because you built turrets, hahaha Such a comment isn't USEFUL for the strategy forum. Try and find a strat that would pierce this early to mid game battle plan. Notice i didn't say this is all that is needed. Obviously if you need to make a push heavies will play a great role and some other thing will be added.
However the key important thing is that with this strat you haven't really slowed down the marines momentum, and you are able to move to next hive.
DISCLAIMER!!!!! If the aliens build fades: Don't panic, fades aren't that good. REPEAT fades are easy to kill if you have a group of marines that work in concert with each other (I know this is hard to understand marines helping each other out and working together). IF the aliens have fades by the time you are in eclipse (which means you are a very slow commander) you need to skip the jp portion and delay the weapons and armor upgrades to advance to heavies asap. This will give you marines an increased moral, and if your heavies work together with their HMG/Welders they should be able to utterly stop the fades from being a threat. (this requires comm to abuse the med pac /ammo ability so that the heavies can repair and get healed while fighting off fades, this is very important).
If you are unfortunate to have only lmgs to fight fades, and don't have the capacity to start going to heavies, then skip the jps and start reinforcing your two main points, base (if it is being hit hard), eclipse, or if your base is being demolished relocate to eclipse. Now by reinforce i mean build up to 4 more turrets in eclipse Making a total of 8. Then you should have some money to buy weapons and armor upgrades. Research them to lvl 2 so that your basic marine can go toe to toe with the fades. Now have your marins split up into teams and gaurd the entrances of the most important area.
If you are at this point then you are probably in some bad shape, the marines lost their momentum and fades are about to try and really push on eclipse (or other way around) buy maybe 2 grenade launchers one for each team at the entrances. While your marines (if good) are holding at bay the fades you should be researching heavy armor.
If you get your heavy armor working there are only two things you really need. heavy armor and welders. HMGs would be nice buy you need as many people in HA/Weld combinations that you can get to decrease marine casualties and increase chances of stopping the onslaught of fades. With your heavies hopefully holding back the fades, get your HMGS to your best fighters your most cooperative players. Ammo up and start moving to Comm to get a 2nd hive. Its important that you DO NOT RUSH your HA progress. You need to go slowly. Every 10meters or so make sure your heavies are armored up with plenty of ammo to spare, and full health. While you are waiting for marines to do this upgrade your armor.
Once you reach the Comm hive (i think its comm if its not then hell, screw me). wait outside and build a phase gate. after that build a TF. After that build a seige, you don't want to lose a single HA. In order to do that you have to spend a couple resources to protect your HA from structural damage from Of. Towers and Fades that have pooled in the 2nd hive.
With your sieges blaring away at the hive move in your grenade launchers, followed by your HMGS followed by a bunch of marines repariing the HA's. At this point drop health and ammo al over the place, your marines will need it.
If all goes well you shuold have mopped up the 2nd hive. Establish a base of command and progress to the third hive using the same strategy i outlined above.
I want you to notice how I used my strat. I started with mines for defense and slowly moved to turrets to help defend. I didn't FARM, nor did i waste tons of resources wasting away on futile things like every res node the marines came across. If there is a flaw somewhere here please post it to me, I think this is the perfect plan to integrate both mines and turrets. Add on to this strat or say what doesn't make sense so I can clarify and we, as a community, can evolve a strategy that uses both turrets and mines. Thanks
Now to all you haters out there don't give me posts like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Well if your building turrets, the aliens will probably get fades. -haha yeh good point froggeh if you build turrets most undoubtly aliens will get a second hive MAHAHAHAH -I don't like this idea too many problems of which I won't name. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are not helpful to the readers out there, not helpful to me, not helpful to you. I know its hard to come up with a USEFUL strategy, and I know its harder to find LEGITIMATE reasons why a strategy doesn't work. Pithy remarks that are one liners don't solve the problem of how best to use mines and turrets. Insight would be nice to have and many you the posters here give it. Please now I ask that you put your knowledge and focus it on the plan I wrote above. This way we have something to GIVE to the NS community.
This isn't a flame post, its my strat that I think is a pretty good back bone strat. Tell me how you would change it to best fit your style of commanding. I swear though don't give some one line argument and try to pass it off as strategy.
The marines have to eleminate the aliens before the second hive, this is the normal outcome because the marines are overpowered compared to skulks.
Basically at high lvl play there are 2 basic ways to win as marines. Get into the alien hive spawn camp while killing the hive. If that isnt possible tech rush, best way is usually jetpacks + hmg
The Jetpack rush takes alot of work to counter for the aliens. The must keep the marine rts in check check marine base destroy armory/protolab/armslab if possible
Some newer strategies envolve alien rushing usually with 2 gorges and a combination of lerks and skulks.
Sometimes it can work well if they only have their base guard in base at the time.
I personally think that turrets are a waste of resources. Why? Because you can take down turrets just by spinning around it and biting it, you don't even need carapace or regeneration to do that. THe turrets just can't keep up with the skulk speed. I personally can take 2 or 3 turrets down with carapace lvl 3. But if you combine turrets and mines then the place is pretty secure, or even if the turret is in a corner or near a wall so you can't spin around it it's not useless.
As in most cases in life... the answer is "it depends".
An extreme example of ridiculous anti-turret mentality:
2 on 1 game. I'm the 1 and on the marine team. Naturally as I have nobody else to protect anything I build some turrets (btw, why does nobody take advantage of eclipse base and built some turrets <b>outside</b> the doors as well, thus making it hard for skulks to avoid damage ?).
At any rate, of course a few minutes later another player joins the game and now I have a marine to help out. Whats almost the first thing he does ? He complains about the turrets !!!! Interesting... that even extreme circumstances were not enough to shift him from his blind objection to turrets defending main base early on.
Just because it is no longer "trendy" to protect base with a tf early on does not mean it is not a viable strategy. It always depends on the situation.
Keep in mind, I don't fully advocate TF in the beginning of the game. Of course some commanders have a good reason for it. Particularly if you know the alien team is strong, it might be a smart decision to TF the beginning. I don't know though I generally don't TF the beginning
Sure fades are problematic, i never said that they aren't... but if you are upgrading, like I said, 2-3 marines can easily down a fade.
I didn't think of web, its true that damn ability pisses me off ( oh well). If the aliens have their **** together they are using web, then fades become a real pain in the ****.
I would think bunkering down (not using turrets but just holding off a fade onslaught) with marines and trying to tech to HA would be the best move.
What do you guys think?
Also remember i am thinking of using turrets only to loosen the slack for the marines who are guarding key positions. Its really dumb to waste your turrets all over the place. I completely agree there. However if you have a team guarding somewhere strategic, you need that team to move forward. The best way to do taht is replace the team with some turrets so taht the area is still defended when the marines go to take more res.
Don't over-use turrets, its a waste of res upgrade while strategically using turrets is better.
<!--QuoteBegin--ATI+Mar 28 2003, 12:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ATI @ Mar 28 2003, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Keep in mind, I don't fully advocate TF in the beginning of the game. Of course some commanders have a good reason for it. , it might be a smart decision to TF the beginning. I don't know though I generally don't TF the beginning
Sure fades are problematic, i never said that... but if you are upgrading like I said 2-3 marines can easily down a fade.
I didn't think of web, its true that damn ability pisses me off ( oh well). If the aliens have their **** together they are using web, then fades become a real pain in the ****.
I would think bunkering down (not using turrets but just holding off a fade onslaught) with marines and trying to tech to HA would be the best move.
What do you guys think?
Also remember i am thinking of using turrets only to loosen the slack for the marines who are guarding key positions. Its really dumb to waste your turrets all over the place. I completely agree there. However if you have a team guarding somewhere strategic, you need that team to move forward. The best way to do taht is replace the team with some turrets so taht the area is still defended when the marines go to take more res.
Don't over-use turrets, its a waste of res upgrade while strategically using turrets is better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Particularly if you know the alien team is strong<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the aliens are strong they will have no problems with turrets what-so-ever
and if u built a tf early on you wont have the upgrade you need to face fades if they get a second hive so overall yer screwed
okay, what would you do mr. insight? I'm not tryign to be rude but seriously that statement didn't help me one bit. I can't bend over and kiss my self good-bye the second i find out the aliens are working well together.
what would you do if the aliens where good and you didn't use turrets?
well lets see if the aliens are good i would have some people pressure the hive, while others go cap res.
if the marines are good enough they should be able to mess with their hive long enough to get 2-3 res up and safe (while having 1 or 2 guard base, and since pressuring the hive probobly kill a gorge or 2)
at start i would build ip/armory/arms lab
get armor 1 then weapon 1 (armor 1 first because surviveing 1 extra bite is more important then more damage till they have lvl 3 cara)
then proto lab of course. (this isnt supposed to be a fun strat its regular lame old jp strat) and you know where it goes from that
if the hive is successfully pressured and you cap enough res nodes itll be over in no time with a victory for the marines.
This thread is a riot. We have zealots on boths sides. Personally, I use them both. I start with mines because fo teh cheap resources, but you can bet I have key points locked down with turrets by mid-game when fades make waste of all mines (and I have at least lvl 2 weapons). You also must be able to adapt to the team and map. Some maps are too open to use mines effectively, and some have too many hiding spot for effective turrets. If the marines can't shoot, or won't defend the base, you need some static defense. True, clan servers don't worry about this, but I want to see these asume clan commanders command a pub. Pub commanders are the real pros. I have done clan commands, and it is much easier, because you have fewer unknowns. You know the clan will react a certain way and stay at designated spots. Ok. Great for the team. But, that doesn't mean you can command an unruley set of pubbies. I am really surprised no one mentioned my favorite tactic of mining the turrets. Place one on each turret and a couple around the TF and you just made it near imposible for a single skulk to take out a TF before backup (even pub backup) arives. If you expect ANY static defense to hold off the aliens, well..don't command while I play marines.
As an alien, I love when marines mine spam the base. I can usually bypass most setups with only a few suicide runs and even take out structures without being harrassed. What is even better is that the marines have no backup from turret fire, so I have an easier time munching the marine that comes to defend the building I just ate. And as fade, those are GREAT! I have taken out the entire team san commander at once by acid rocketing mines. Wooohoooo!
As for the number mentioned. I don't think any of them took into account the number of "extra" mines you need to replace the wasted ones the suicide skulks took out. Thak has to be, minimal, 16 res for a good game.
It totally comes down to the comm's preference. You can play it either way. Turreting means you need fewer marines guarding, so more of them are off securing hives.
And even if a good alien team can take down a group of turrets and not get hurt, how long does it take them? If you've tied up 3 aliens taking down turrets outside of a hive, that's giving marines everywhere else an advantage.
The other comment I saw in this thread was about moving bases.
Personally, when I'm on marines, if we've got 2 hives secured, I just pray that the aliens decide to take out our base.
Seriously, a comm can build up in the weakest hive in no time at all, recycle everything in the old base, and make the game almost impossible for aliens to win.
It cuts down the number of areas the marines need to defend, it strengthens a hive because there's ALWAYS a marine at the armory, and most of the time it's a shorter walk from hive to hive then from base to hive.
Once you move the inf portals, marine start is nothing but a res node. Hives are what make or break games in 1.04, not res nodes.
Comments
Now i Know there are exceptions to this, I have been in many a game where my team captured 2 hives and easily locked down the final hive. It happens, just not when the aliens are good. Also, why be afraid of the aliens getting fades? seriously? they aren't that much of a threat if you have a cohesive battle plan. For example:
say you're playing eclipse
: start move guys to station acces alpha keep two back for base
:2 mines packs
:2 IP
:1 armory
:Satellite
Secure alpha
1: res node
go to triad with team of five marines ( i assume you play a bigger server, if not, well scale the number to your liking) from station access alph
1: res node
1: Phase gate, main base
Move to eclipse
1: phase gate, eclipse
:1 tf
:res node
:move all marines to eclipse
:drop 4 turrets
Now you have set yourself up for some good strategy to take the other two hives
Assuming the aliens might have taken down one of your res nodes (probably station access alpha) you need base upgrades
:upgrade armory
:upgrade armor
:Proto lab
Use your marines that are at eclipse and split them into two equal forces.
one gaurds eclipse the other needs to resecure the four res (Main base, station access alpha, Triad, Eclipse, if you want throw in Horseshoe) nodes.
While this action is goign on you have a steady stream of income, and a mined off base.
When your upgrades are done do the following
:research JP
:upgrade weapons
:motion sensors (if you have the ability to)
Now you have the ability to make an effective strike force. Since your armor and weapon lvl 1 upgrades go relatively fast you should have these at least at lvl 2 by now.
This is the beginning of a useful battle plan. Of course this isn't set in stone and obviously you need to adapt to teh level of aliens you are playing
please don't send another message looking like this:
"well i send in 5 skulks and kill the main base, hahaha because you built turrets, hahaha
Such a comment isn't USEFUL for the strategy forum. Try and find a strat that would pierce this early to mid game battle plan. Notice i didn't say this is all that is needed. Obviously if you need to make a push heavies will play a great role and some other thing will be added.
However the key important thing is that with this strat you haven't really slowed down the marines momentum, and you are able to move to next hive.
DISCLAIMER!!!!!
If the aliens build fades:
Don't panic, fades aren't that good. REPEAT fades are easy to kill if you have a group of marines that work in concert with each other (I know this is hard to understand marines helping each other out and working together). IF the aliens have fades by the time you are in eclipse (which means you are a very slow commander) you need to skip the jp portion and delay the weapons and armor upgrades to advance to heavies asap. This will give you marines an increased moral, and if your heavies work together with their HMG/Welders they should be able to utterly stop the fades from being a threat. (this requires comm to abuse the med pac /ammo ability so that the heavies can repair and get healed while fighting off fades, this is very important).
If you are unfortunate to have only lmgs to fight fades, and don't have the capacity to start going to heavies, then skip the jps and start reinforcing your two main points, base (if it is being hit hard), eclipse, or if your base is being demolished relocate to eclipse. Now by reinforce i mean build up to 4 more turrets in eclipse Making a total of 8. Then you should have some money to buy weapons and armor upgrades. Research them to lvl 2 so that your basic marine can go toe to toe with the fades. Now have your marins split up into teams and gaurd the entrances of the most important area.
If you are at this point then you are probably in some bad shape, the marines lost their momentum and fades are about to try and really push on eclipse (or other way around) buy maybe 2 grenade launchers one for each team at the entrances. While your marines (if good) are holding at bay the fades you should be researching heavy armor.
If you get your heavy armor working there are only two things you really need. heavy armor and welders. HMGs would be nice buy you need as many people in HA/Weld combinations that you can get to decrease marine casualties and increase chances of stopping the onslaught of fades. With your heavies hopefully holding back the fades, get your HMGS to your best fighters your most cooperative players. Ammo up and start moving to Comm to get a 2nd hive. Its important that you DO NOT RUSH your HA progress. You need to go slowly. Every 10meters or so make sure your heavies are armored up with plenty of ammo to spare, and full health. While you are waiting for marines to do this upgrade your armor.
Once you reach the Comm hive (i think its comm if its not then hell, screw me). wait outside and build a phase gate. after that build a TF. After that build a seige, you don't want to lose a single HA. In order to do that you have to spend a couple resources to protect your HA from structural damage from Of. Towers and Fades that have pooled in the 2nd hive.
With your sieges blaring away at the hive move in your grenade launchers, followed by your HMGS followed by a bunch of marines repariing the HA's. At this point drop health and ammo al over the place, your marines will need it.
If all goes well you shuold have mopped up the 2nd hive. Establish a base of command and progress to the third hive using the same strategy i outlined above.
I want you to notice how I used my strat. I started with mines for defense and slowly moved to turrets to help defend. I didn't FARM, nor did i waste tons of resources wasting away on futile things like every res node the marines came across. If there is a flaw somewhere here please post it to me, I think this is the perfect plan to integrate both mines and turrets. Add on to this strat or say what doesn't make sense so I can clarify and we, as a community, can evolve a strategy that uses both turrets and mines.
Thanks
Now to all you haters out there don't give me posts like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Well if your building turrets, the aliens will probably get fades.
-haha yeh good point froggeh if you build turrets most undoubtly aliens will get a second hive MAHAHAHAH
-I don't like this idea too many problems of which I won't name.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are not helpful to the readers out there, not helpful to me, not helpful to you. I know its hard to come up with a USEFUL strategy, and I know its harder to find LEGITIMATE reasons why a strategy doesn't work. Pithy remarks that are one liners don't solve the problem of how best to use mines and turrets. Insight would be nice to have and many you the posters here give it. Please now I ask that you put your knowledge and focus it on the plan I wrote above. This way we have something to GIVE to the NS community.
This isn't a flame post, its my strat that I think is a pretty good back bone strat. Tell me how you would change it to best fit your style of commanding. I swear though don't give some one line argument and try to pass it off as strategy.
yours truly
Captain Obvious <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
There is a slight problem though. At hive 2, aliens do not only get fades, they also get umbra. And web. It's the umbra + fades + offensive webbing (a gorge coming along with the fades/lerks and spamming webs at the feet of the marines during the fight) combo that's pretty overwhelming for marines (after fighting skulks exclusively and maybe a lerk or two for most of the game) unless they have enough RPs to gear out a good chunk of their team in HA + HMG/GL + welder.
Hive 2 is still GG unless it comes pretty late and the marines have been teching, upgrading and piling RPs for a while.
: start move guys to station acces alpha keep two back for base
:2 mines packs
:2 IP
:1 armory
:Satellite
1: res node
1: res node
1: Phase gate, main base <---- Aliens have carapace now
1: phase gate, eclipse
:1 tf
:res node
:move all marines to eclipse
:drop 4 turrets <---- Aliens have anti-JP defences now
:Arms lab
:upgrade armory
:upgrade armor <---- 2nd hive is going up now
:Proto lab
:research JP <---- Hives are webbed now
:upgrade weapons <---- Aliens have fades
:motion sensors (if you have the ability to) <---- Are not about to save you
This is why there is no res to waste on turrets when the job can be done adequately by marines and mines. Securing eclipse in your example offers you no tactical advantage other than a res node, because aliens do not need 3 hives to kill you. In spending the time and res on turreting EC you have only succeeded in giving the Aliens more free time to build and control most of the map. If you don't believe me on the timings of this i can only suggest you try some 6v6 matchplay against experienced teams. If you don't believe me about the game being over when the aliens have 2 webbed, defended hives, and fades are about to hit your mine-defended main while you are just dropping jetpacks, then i will suggest the same. You are stuck in a defensive mindset, you move somewhere and defend, move again and defend. By putting yourself constantly on the defensive you take all pressure off the alien team and give them the map.
I'll assume you play pubs, so try this - take a look at the pub Alien playstyle. A pub alien team is constantly offensive, it rushes from the beginning of the game and it continually harasses a marine team who sit on the defensive waiting for it. Now consider alien expansion against your defensive playstyle. While this harassment is going on, gorges basically wander the map carefree, dropping res nodes and upgrade chambers with 0 turrets covering their hive or their res. They spend no resources on defense untill later in the game, because you are making no attempt to attack them. You are being defensive, so they dont have to, and the res they save because of this is ploughed straight back into their tech. By defending, you invite them to attack your structures and harass your res nodes, meanwhile you give them free access to any res node they want other than the 2-3 you are sitting on.
Imagine an alien team that played like you do, all sitting in their hive waiting for you to come to them. Gingerishly pressing out of their base once or twice to cap a res node and cover it in OCs. As the marine team against these aliens you have free map control, you can take any res node you like and spend all your res on teching as fast as you can. What is more, you only need 1 marine to sit back and build structures, so what are the rest of them going to do? They can rush off to the alien hive and start killing things. You are playing like this alien team, and it doesn't make sense. The killer is, in NS's current state its the aliens who should be cowering in their base fearful of your rush because prior to carapace marines >> aliens.
But the aliens aren't cowering in their base because they have become accustomed to public server marines teams who wont attack their main hive untill they have every upgrade in the game. You don't use your early game advantage, and you let the aliens have full carapace (ie. you aren't in there killing their gorge and their DCs). With carapace up your chance for early game pressure is wasted. You are teching to jetpacks, but by trying to turret and defend hives and res nodes (and by not delaying the aliens) you have slowed your tech down to the point where, by the time you are ready to drop JPs, they have very little chance of succesfully killing a hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Fact is most marine games are won after the aliens have captured a second hive
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is simply a lie, i don't have any other way of explaining it to you. Even pub games are usually won by a rush or a 2 hive lockdown. An alien team that does not win very quickly after the 2nd hive is up has either been delayed a great deal by the marines (Which you are making no attempt to do) or is not making a serious effort to finish you. The latter being a common trait of public servers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Aliens almost always get a second hive REGARDLESS of wether or not you built a turret.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also false, a well performed JP rush hits before a 2nd hive will be up. A public server 2 hive lockdown naturally prevents a 2nd hive. And rushes by either team will frequently end the game prior to 2 hive tech. The only reason Aliens get 2 hives in your example is because you are unnecessarily defensive and make no attempt to stop them. Your problem is nothing to do with the choice of turrets or mines, the very concept of your strat is flawed. Turrets are required in your strat, but the only reason they are required is because you sit back and allow the aliens to get so strong that you need turrets. I suggest you go rent the matrix on DVD, then "Free your mind" and realise that not only do marines not have to be about defense, they are actually better played as an offensive side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
"4-5 skulks can easily circle strafe a couple turrets and kill them all in 8-10 bites each and take out the TF). That logic is correct....assuming that you don't have marines in the area.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the early game, if you have marines in the area then you have no need for turrets anyway and you might as well not place any. Marine >>> uncarapaced skulk. Turrets by themselves dont defend an area against anything. Turrets and marines will stop anything in the early game, but so will marines + mines, or just marines by themselves. Consequently there is no early game situation where you can justify spending the 70-100 res required for a basic TF + turret formation. There are much better things to spend the res on.
Re: ATI's post, teching up to meet fades is a viable strat (my usual on the rare occasions when I command) but doing only what you've said there will get you killed.
You need to be getting RTs, mining them up and moving on. Eventually secure one hive. That’s all Ok.
The key point is during all this you need to be putting pressure on the aliens, forcing them to spend res and time defending rather then attacking you, thereby allowing you to tech up. When fades arrive you should be on even footing, and eventually you'll have a fully equipped and teched team that will fight the fades back to their hive.
Also, in your example your getting weapon and armour upgrades far too late. Cara skulks will be owning you left right and centre, costing <b>you</b> time and res you can ill afford. You'll drop JPs and HMGs in your example build but without upgrades their just moving res sinks for the aliens to kill. I would say IMO you need level 2 upgrades, some HMGs and at least one GL by the time fades arrive, JPs optional. If you've not bought time for yourself by killing DCS and RTs and going gorge hunting the fades will come knocking before you can handle them.
1-hive lockdown and tech up is a viable strat, but if your gonna do it do it right.
Far too few marine teams I've seen are willing to spread out and attack. By spread out I don't mean everyone ramboing, however.
Defense IS important, but not as important as offense in the early marine game.
After all if you don't go out of the base, you're not going to get any res points yourself are you?? (<-- over simplified for those who don't get what I've said above)
Roo
Plus my 2p worth on turrets - when turrets are placed before 2 or 3 res points are built, it's game over for marines if they are NOT making ground over the map and forcing the aliens to defend.
FWIW if I find a comm placing turrets at base in the first 100 res, they're gone. Either out of chair or fully booted. Sadly, by that point they've already lost the game. :/
A TF and turrets is <i>far</i> too much of your beginning 100 resources for how much protection it provides to your base. One Marine is as good as 4 turrets and a TF, and he's free. You can either spend 40 res on your TF and Turrets or use that 40 res on, say, an Arms Lab which provides you with a distinct advantage over the Aliens whereever you go, not just in your base.
Ask most clannies what they'd pick and instantly they'll tell you Arms Lab. Weapons upgrades are just so much more useful to anyone that knows how to play Marine right. Turrets are unreliable and too expensive.
Then again, if you're playing with Marines that can't hit the broad side of a barn, turrets might be the way to go. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Whilst I too have a "Why ? We don't need it yet ?" kneejerk response to an early TF/turrets, I also have to respect the commander. He/she was the one who got in the chair and hence has the responsibilty for making decisions. If he/she wants a TF in base i'll ask why, i'll possibly think its a bad idea but i'll still build the damn thing.
I do respect you Roo, but what your saying is just wrong. Your dictating how the marines should play just because your the server admin, and thats out of order. Sure, try and eject them if u want, although its a bit premature isn't it to eject someone just because you disagree with an early TF ?
But kicked of the server ? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only thing worse than wasting res is having a commander who doesn't communicate.
I should clarify I'm not against a TF at base, if the situation requires one. Any commander who comes on (typically names like NSPlayer I am referring to) and just dumps a TF in base after 1 ip, then doesn't explain that they have a strategy is wasting the time of all concerned, including the aliens who mop up a rag tag game 2 minutes after it has started. That's no fun for anyone, so it's better to nip the problem in the bud.
HOWEVER if a commander clearly explains that they have a strategy (even if they don't tell us what it is, that's fine), then I will listen and respect them totally.
Just wanted to clear that up.
I'l try and pop by your server sometime and introduce myself LMG style <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have come to the conclusion that no ammount of words AT ALL, NO MATTER WHAT, will be able to settle this.
And at that I never said that i was arguing against using mines and/or turrets. This whole thing was a question asking whats wrong with any turrets anywhere period. I always build a TF and turrets in key locations such as base and captured hives and i STILL always give out mines to defend RTs and temp footholds.
Both are viable as defense and in some cases offense. Alone they have weaknesses but together with good placement are even better.
Now stop saying turrets are worthless or that mines are the absolute best thing in the game and your a n00b for not using them. All of the structures weapons and everythign else is in the game for a reason.
Turrets are good IF they are used in conjunction with mines so then you dont have skulks circle stafing them. THEN they are very useful, infact on most games i see whenever there is a turret farm at an near hive location, it lasts a very long time. This is because there are marines there, and allow me to refer to another post for my argument. "Turrets are a static defense a human player is a dynamic defense, it reacts differently in certain situations. A fade is jumping out from behind a wall and aciding the turret, a marine appears, suddenly the fade cannot use this tactic because the dynamic defense is reacting to counter this tactic."
Problem solved, get a defense monkey. n00bs are exceptionally useful in this regard, especially if you put an emphasis on them learning team work.
And i tried a circle strafe with celerity3 and its very hard to avoid being shot, you mighten get shot often, but your not invincible.
If you have 3 turrets and two skulks are circle strafing turrets, there still another turret laying into them, it isnt hard to track a skulk moving in a small circle, especially for turrets.
A minefield must be maintained. A building or door that has several mines around it will be open to attack after only a single mine is destroyed. Turrets are harder to kill with proper placement.
Resource towers can be mined. My usual tactic to deal with that is to run on the ceiling, get above the resource tower, and drop down. I may get killed, but that's after the tower is gone. Of course, unless the mines around the bottom are good you can just eat the lower part. Just like with turrets, avoid unprotected sides. Mines tend to have far more unprotected sides.
Also, turrets can shoot anything. Mines are against melee attacks and vent travel only. Do not leave a mined base without a defender, or you may find out one side of the base has become a WoL built there by a gorge who didn't have any trouble with those mines around your IP/phase.
It's actually not too difficult to jump off the RT with your last bite. Just keep your eye on it's health and when theres no 'bars' left I think 2 more bites finish it off.
like i said if you confront kittens with proof why turrets suck hell get defensive/offensive and call you an idiot (anyone that said turrets suck he called an idiot on page 5) and kittens i played with you last night on nano gridlock
WE GOT SLAUGHTERED! you built yer damn turrets in docking wing. What happened to them? they died and so did we.(even tho i slaughtered most aliens that came into docking wing or base)
so maybe the reason he got kicked wasnt because turrets suck but because he is childish and immature?
Instead of all those mines and turrets that you could have spammed in the main, you could get upgrades and extra res nodes really fast, then go for an old school tech rush.
If marine skill and teamplay is high, turrets are worthless and mines should be used carefully. If n00bs (i.e. people who never follow orders) abound, they are a good precaution.
Don't forget that a decent level 3 damage turret farm will aid your defending marines when being attacked by fades and lerks (except for that darned umbra, rwar!), they're not <i>completely</i> useless. It's just such a shame they're sometimes overused.
I'd rather trust my decent shooting marines until I can actually AFFORD to get the turrets up.
It's a balance between affording to put turrets and not being able to afford losing phase/res, a balance very intricately dependant on the accuracy and talent of your marines.
Adapt and prosper <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now i Know there are exceptions to this, I have been in many a game where my team captured 2 hives and easily locked down the final hive. It happens, just not when the aliens are good. Also, why be afraid of the aliens getting fades? seriously? they aren't that much of a threat if you have a cohesive battle plan. For example:
say you're playing eclipse
: start move guys to station acces alpha keep two back for base
:2 mines packs
:2 IP
:1 armory
:Satellite
Secure alpha
1: res node
go to triad with team of five marines ( i assume you play a bigger server, if not, well scale the number to your liking) from station access alph
1: res node
1: Phase gate, main base
Move to eclipse
1: phase gate, eclipse
:1 tf
:res node
:move all marines to eclipse
:drop 4 turrets
Now you have set yourself up for some good strategy to take the other two hives
Assuming the aliens might have taken down one of your res nodes (probably station access alpha) you need base upgrades
:upgrade armory
:upgrade armor
:Proto lab
Use your marines that are at eclipse and split them into two equal forces.
one gaurds eclipse the other needs to resecure the four res (Main base, station access alpha, Triad, Eclipse, if you want throw in Horseshoe) nodes.
While this action is goign on you have a steady stream of income, and a mined off base.
When your upgrades are done do the following
:research JP
:upgrade weapons
:motion sensors (if you have the ability to)
Now you have the ability to make an effective strike force. Since your armor and weapon lvl 1 upgrades go relatively fast you should have these at least at lvl 2 by now.
This is the beginning of a useful battle plan. Of course this isn't set in stone and obviously you need to adapt to teh level of aliens you are playing
please don't send another message looking like this:
"well i send in 5 skulks and kill the main base, hahaha because you built turrets, hahaha
Such a comment isn't USEFUL for the strategy forum. Try and find a strat that would pierce this early to mid game battle plan. Notice i didn't say this is all that is needed. Obviously if you need to make a push heavies will play a great role and some other thing will be added.
However the key important thing is that with this strat you haven't really slowed down the marines momentum, and you are able to move to next hive.
DISCLAIMER!!!!!
If the aliens build fades:
Don't panic, fades aren't that good. REPEAT fades are easy to kill if you have a group of marines that work in concert with each other (I know this is hard to understand marines helping each other out and working together). IF the aliens have fades by the time you are in eclipse (which means you are a very slow commander) you need to skip the jp portion and delay the weapons and armor upgrades to advance to heavies asap. This will give you marines an increased moral, and if your heavies work together with their HMG/Welders they should be able to utterly stop the fades from being a threat. (this requires comm to abuse the med pac /ammo ability so that the heavies can repair and get healed while fighting off fades, this is very important).
If you are unfortunate to have only lmgs to fight fades, and don't have the capacity to start going to heavies, then skip the jps and start reinforcing your two main points, base (if it is being hit hard), eclipse, or if your base is being demolished relocate to eclipse. Now by reinforce i mean build up to 4 more turrets in eclipse Making a total of 8. Then you should have some money to buy weapons and armor upgrades. Research them to lvl 2 so that your basic marine can go toe to toe with the fades. Now have your marins split up into teams and gaurd the entrances of the most important area.
If you are at this point then you are probably in some bad shape, the marines lost their momentum and fades are about to try and really push on eclipse (or other way around) buy maybe 2 grenade launchers one for each team at the entrances. While your marines (if good) are holding at bay the fades you should be researching heavy armor.
If you get your heavy armor working there are only two things you really need. heavy armor and welders. HMGs would be nice buy you need as many people in HA/Weld combinations that you can get to decrease marine casualties and increase chances of stopping the onslaught of fades. With your heavies hopefully holding back the fades, get your HMGS to your best fighters your most cooperative players. Ammo up and start moving to Comm to get a 2nd hive. Its important that you DO NOT RUSH your HA progress. You need to go slowly. Every 10meters or so make sure your heavies are armored up with plenty of ammo to spare, and full health. While you are waiting for marines to do this upgrade your armor.
Once you reach the Comm hive (i think its comm if its not then hell, screw me). wait outside and build a phase gate. after that build a TF. After that build a seige, you don't want to lose a single HA. In order to do that you have to spend a couple resources to protect your HA from structural damage from Of. Towers and Fades that have pooled in the 2nd hive.
With your sieges blaring away at the hive move in your grenade launchers, followed by your HMGS followed by a bunch of marines repariing the HA's. At this point drop health and ammo al over the place, your marines will need it.
If all goes well you shuold have mopped up the 2nd hive. Establish a base of command and progress to the third hive using the same strategy i outlined above.
I want you to notice how I used my strat. I started with mines for defense and slowly moved to turrets to help defend. I didn't FARM, nor did i waste tons of resources wasting away on futile things like every res node the marines came across. If there is a flaw somewhere here please post it to me, I think this is the perfect plan to integrate both mines and turrets. Add on to this strat or say what doesn't make sense so I can clarify and we, as a community, can evolve a strategy that uses both turrets and mines.
Thanks
Now to all you haters out there don't give me posts like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
-Well if your building turrets, the aliens will probably get fades.
-haha yeh good point froggeh if you build turrets most undoubtly aliens will get a second hive MAHAHAHAH
-I don't like this idea too many problems of which I won't name.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are not helpful to the readers out there, not helpful to me, not helpful to you. I know its hard to come up with a USEFUL strategy, and I know its harder to find LEGITIMATE reasons why a strategy doesn't work. Pithy remarks that are one liners don't solve the problem of how best to use mines and turrets. Insight would be nice to have and many you the posters here give it. Please now I ask that you put your knowledge and focus it on the plan I wrote above. This way we have something to GIVE to the NS community.
This isn't a flame post, its my strat that I think is a pretty good back bone strat. Tell me how you would change it to best fit your style of commanding. I swear though don't give some one line argument and try to pass it off as strategy.
yours truly
Captain Obvious <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 Hives <b>IS</b> endgame
3 reasons
webs
umbra
fades
used together the marines dont stand a chance.
This is why 1.04 sucks
The marines have to eleminate the aliens before the second hive, this is the normal outcome because the marines are overpowered compared to skulks.
Basically at high lvl play there are 2 basic ways to win as marines.
Get into the alien hive spawn camp while killing the hive.
If that isnt possible tech rush, best way is usually jetpacks + hmg
The Jetpack rush takes alot of work to counter for the aliens.
The must keep the marine rts in check
check marine base destroy armory/protolab/armslab if possible
Some newer strategies envolve alien rushing usually with 2 gorges and a combination of lerks and skulks.
Sometimes it can work well if they only have their base guard in base at the time.
I guess I went off topic.
An extreme example of ridiculous anti-turret mentality:
2 on 1 game. I'm the 1 and on the marine team. Naturally as I have nobody else to protect anything I build some turrets (btw, why does nobody take advantage of eclipse base and built some turrets <b>outside</b> the doors as well, thus making it hard for skulks to avoid damage ?).
At any rate, of course a few minutes later another player joins the game and now I have a marine to help out. Whats almost the first thing he does ? He complains about the turrets !!!! Interesting... that even extreme circumstances were not enough to shift him from his blind objection to turrets defending main base early on.
Just because it is no longer "trendy" to protect base with a tf early on does not mean it is not a viable strategy. It always depends on the situation.
Sure fades are problematic, i never said that they aren't... but if you are upgrading, like I said, 2-3 marines can easily down a fade.
I didn't think of web, its true that damn ability pisses me off ( oh well). If the aliens have their **** together they are using web, then fades become a real pain in the ****.
I would think bunkering down (not using turrets but just holding off a fade onslaught) with marines and trying to tech to HA would be the best move.
What do you guys think?
Also remember i am thinking of using turrets only to loosen the slack for the marines who are guarding key positions. Its really dumb to waste your turrets all over the place. I completely agree there. However if you have a team guarding somewhere strategic, you need that team to move forward. The best way to do taht is replace the team with some turrets so taht the area is still defended when the marines go to take more res.
Don't over-use turrets, its a waste of res upgrade while strategically using turrets is better.
Sure fades are problematic, i never said that... but if you are upgrading like I said 2-3 marines can easily down a fade.
I didn't think of web, its true that damn ability pisses me off ( oh well). If the aliens have their **** together they are using web, then fades become a real pain in the ****.
I would think bunkering down (not using turrets but just holding off a fade onslaught) with marines and trying to tech to HA would be the best move.
What do you guys think?
Also remember i am thinking of using turrets only to loosen the slack for the marines who are guarding key positions. Its really dumb to waste your turrets all over the place. I completely agree there. However if you have a team guarding somewhere strategic, you need that team to move forward. The best way to do taht is replace the team with some turrets so taht the area is still defended when the marines go to take more res.
Don't over-use turrets, its a waste of res upgrade while strategically using turrets is better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Particularly if you know the alien team is strong<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the aliens are strong they will have no problems with turrets what-so-ever
and if u built a tf early on you wont have the upgrade you need to face fades if they get a second hive so overall yer screwed
I'm not tryign to be rude but seriously that statement didn't help me one bit. I can't bend over and kiss my self good-bye the second i find out the aliens are working well together.
what would you do if the aliens where good and you didn't use turrets?
if the marines are good enough they should be able to mess with their hive long enough to get 2-3 res up and safe (while having 1 or 2 guard base, and since pressuring the hive probobly kill a gorge or 2)
at start i would build
ip/armory/arms lab
get armor 1 then weapon 1 (armor 1 first because surviveing 1 extra bite is more important then more damage till they have lvl 3 cara)
then proto lab of course. (this isnt supposed to be a fun strat its regular lame old jp strat)
and you know where it goes from that
if the hive is successfully pressured and you cap enough res nodes itll be over in no time with a victory for the marines.
If the marines can't shoot, or won't defend the base, you need some static defense. True, clan servers don't worry about this, but I want to see these asume clan commanders command a pub. Pub commanders are the real pros. I have done clan commands, and it is much easier, because you have fewer unknowns. You know the clan will react a certain way and stay at designated spots. Ok. Great for the team. But, that doesn't mean you can command an unruley set of pubbies.
I am really surprised no one mentioned my favorite tactic of mining the turrets. Place one on each turret and a couple around the TF and you just made it near imposible for a single skulk to take out a TF before backup (even pub backup) arives.
If you expect ANY static defense to hold off the aliens, well..don't command while I play marines.
As an alien, I love when marines mine spam the base. I can usually bypass most setups with only a few suicide runs and even take out structures without being harrassed. What is even better is that the marines have no backup from turret fire, so I have an easier time munching the marine that comes to defend the building I just ate. And as fade, those are GREAT! I have taken out the entire team san commander at once by acid rocketing mines. Wooohoooo!
As for the number mentioned. I don't think any of them took into account the number of "extra" mines you need to replace the wasted ones the suicide skulks took out. Thak has to be, minimal, 16 res for a good game.
And even if a good alien team can take down a group of turrets and not get hurt, how long does it take them? If you've tied up 3 aliens taking down turrets outside of a hive, that's giving marines everywhere else an advantage.
The other comment I saw in this thread was about moving bases.
Personally, when I'm on marines, if we've got 2 hives secured, I just pray that the aliens decide to take out our base.
Seriously, a comm can build up in the weakest hive in no time at all, recycle everything in the old base, and make the game almost impossible for aliens to win.
It cuts down the number of areas the marines need to defend, it strengthens a hive because there's ALWAYS a marine at the armory, and most of the time it's a shorter walk from hive to hive then from base to hive.
Once you move the inf portals, marine start is nothing but a res node. Hives are what make or break games in 1.04, not res nodes.