Just in case, I would like to clarify that I am not against mines. I find mines to be a very useful strategy for the beginning of the game to solve imminent skulk rushes. However, I find that you have to use something to protect your positions for the mid and end game. To me, for the reasons stated above, turrets are the best solution to strategic defense.
Kaniran is right as well... my strategy isn't set in stone....EVER. One strat isn't universally applicable. As a commander you are responsible for the adaptation of your team. If the commander can't adapt to a situation that is pulverizing your strategy, then you need to adapt or put someone else in as commander.
Further more, I am assuming your teams are soemwhat good. If you don't have good players on your team, then you'll lose regardless how amazing your strat is. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Sorry to dissapointe commanders that think otherwise, but there is no way to make a team of useless players win with your strat, no matter how good. The best way to overcome this is effective leadership and humanist approaches to your marines (not gauranteed to work). But thats just my way of trying to turn a team around. (this paragraph not key to my central argument on turrets).
I like it when the Comm drops 2 packs of mines, then after we secure some nodes by the time we get back all the mines are gone along with our IP and armory. I can't tell you how many times I've screamed for mines, and the annoyed comm gives in and wastes 16 res. 30 Seconds later 10 skulks rip apart our base (half of which ran past the mines on the ground).
Oddly enough, the comm that drops mines, watches skulks walk past them
mines alone are stupid, you need at least 1 marine guarding the base at all times.
when i enter a marine base the first thing i do is check for mines on the ground, then i just slowly walk between the mines and destroy whatever i want. the only time i cant do this is when there is a marine guarding or the comm pops out.
and with turrets there still should be a marine guarding and he should have a welder.
I often go "this strat just wne... ok, now how can it fail" and I test it. then I come back and say "now I know how it can fail, its time to rethink things"... then I severly cut those conditions from happening thus having the strat fail less or try something new all together.
But then again there are infinant ways for one team to do one thing... hell, a well trained marine team can walk into the 1st hive and build a base there without the aliens knowing. thats a strat. hey, an alien team can get sens first and hide, they can never let the marines leave their base. another strat.
The way I work, I try something untill it goes wrong, then I fix it or learn from it and try something else. thats how I win games... NOT by dropping mines every round or turrets every round regardless of the situation. Its a trait some people call flexability.
I've seen both mine and turret defences circumvented at the start - either can fail. But I'd say the main problem with turrets first is that you don't have any res to spare. You only have 1 nozzle, and once you've got your turrets up that leaves you with pretty much 0 - you will then probably find yourself twiddling your thumbs waiting for 22 for the next nozzle. This sort of early delay then snowballs, potentially putting you some way behind in resource gathering.
Aliens can achieve the same effect by dropping DCs before their first res tower.
You've got to weigh up how you want the first few minutes to play out. The turrets will be initially very effective until the aliens get carapace, but then so will mines. A bit later you will need a few extra turrets/mines - as the game goes on turrets become more and more effective as you get weapon upgrades, and they need less maintenance.
My personal preference is to drop 3-4 packs of mines for initial base defence, then come back and do turrets later after a couple of res nodes. If I see a commander dropping a TF first, I generally get a little nervous, but I certainly keep my mouth shut and build. At least until he's dropped the sixth turret or so without doing anything else or giving any orders <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
True, using the turret first strat generally slows down the marines momentum to get some more res nodes. I won't argue that. In fact you are the example of a good marine, just do what the comm says and see how things pan out.
I am arguing the ignorance of simply not using any mines, or not using any turrets and trying to justify such ignorance. Its as if we had gone into Iraq and said.... O"h lets not use our airforce for this one, they cost too much." A good commander works like Tommy Franks, you adapt to your situation, but you have to strike fast and hard. You don't build defensive positions till you are relatively stable in your combat plan and resource flow.
Placing turrets at game start is more a waste of res than a strat, but still a strategy. If aliens rush base heavy enough to make you place a tf in there in early game they have succeded in making you wasting that res.
<b>Ns comunity is intollerant. a team gets the commander it deserves because its part of the team.</b>
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Im quite experienced in killing IPs in a base full of mines. So as long as you dont block both entrances with 8 mines each and you think 4-8mines all over the base are enough for defense (no guarding marines from time to time) i wil kill reloading marines or infantry portals even if there are mines all over the base.
And if you have the free time in marine base (whole marine team is busy securing a hive) noone defends base, i kill a structure with bite, even if it has 4 mines just around it. It has a sense of bomb-defusing but works because of bite range vs mine range.
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when an important place does not get defended enough I sometimes place a TF there, but rarely turrets after its build. This makes my teammates yell "hey comm why no turrets..." but well, while they yell they defend the place at least <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Turrets come later...
Mines can realyl be usefull "IF" they are given to the right person on the team. Don't feel guilty for handing out mines to a certain someone, a regular you know, tha you can trust will place mines accurately and efficiently. Therefore, you save possibly wasted res ons tupid mine placement. Many people don't realize how mines can be usefull to cover phase gates in early phase rushes.
placing a TF does not make you insantly a"noob". Thats ridiculous if someone were to whine about it. I'm sure as hell I would of been upset by that too but eventually you become immune to immature people. As most people know already, Mines are good for early game but by midway they cam become useless since Fades can turn the mine against the marines "BUME" and after gorge gets web as second hive ability, they will be coming in the base and setting off mines themselves with gorge spit.
Another thing some commanders overlook is the use of mines after one of two hives are destroyed. But making sure all Fades are dead before doing so <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and as for the TF, just ignore the bastads. You know your a good commander so don't let smart talk bring you down from your role. Sure its humiliating and frustrating when some immature freak boots you from command but you have to deal with it since every game has its stupid people.
On the note of a TF: I have to say that your first 100 resources are most valuable. They make and break your strategy. While a TF in spawn is especially useful against aliens, and mines are also useful, here's the thing: You MUST expand or suffer losses later. While, Dub was a little grimy (he has a knack for insulting people. been doing it to me for years.), he has a point. I consider turrets only useful for defence against Hive 2 aliens and for assaulting positions. Mines provide defence, but I think I've found the flaw in each of the games you're talking about. Your marines aren't holding positions with your defences. As nice as mines are, it's a little annoying for a suicidal skulk to get blown away by a base camping marines. (place mines near structures, not on doors - you'll find a free range skulk can run in, but doesn't stand a chance when it goes to feed). If I throw down 300 mines, besides crashing the server, I'll also have a weak defence. Suicidal skulk will go through any set of turrets or mines if there are no marines to hold the positions. Mines will get you more bang for your buck early on. Nothing bothers me more than seeing an IP or 2, and Armory, and a TF and a commander with no res that spends every 19 he gets on a new turret. The fact is, you DO NOT have enough resources to instantly spend money on turrets and still remain effective and expandable. The res flow is way too slow. Make it a point to get at least 1 res node with your starting resources -have your marines camp it.
To sum up what I'm saying: your first 100 resources are too valuable to all spend on defence. Mines work against hive 1 aliens. Turrets work against all levels of aliens. Mines are cheaper. Either defence without marine backup is useless anyway, so see what you can discovere about getting a base camper or something.
Last note: when planting mines, you can either block doors off, or cover structures with them. Nothing worse than a mine on a phase gate and having a skulk phase through at the other end to get blown away. Blocked doors are as bad as TFs with 3 turrets. Once a mine or turret is gone, it becomes entirely useless.
And yeah. all those res on defences are better put to upgrades and medkits for the marines that are keeping offenses.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Mar 27 2003, 03:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Mar 27 2003, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im quite experienced in killing IPs in a base full of mines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's another good point - the more commanders rely on mines, the more practice aliens will get at handling them, so the less effective they will be. Back in 1.02 and earlier noone used mines, now everyone does, and the aliens are getting the hang of them.
If you always use the same strategy, it will eventually be doomed to failure. Base relocation to Cargo Bay Hive or Processing are getting harder and harder, for example - you're likely to find 5 skulks waiting for you there now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->held back a fade rush long enough for a strike team to take out the sat comm hive and no-name hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
who are you calling ignorant? Sat-comm isnt on that map...its on ns_tanith. Its port engine, no-name (or Mother hive) and Subspace...
<!--QuoteBegin--Commander Kittens+Mar 27 2003, 02:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Commander Kittens @ Mar 27 2003, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--psygnosis+Mar 27 2003, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (psygnosis @ Mar 27 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But there are many strategies in NS and all of them work if executed correctly. Each person employs their own tactic. You obviously have your own. They probably have their own. I probably have my own :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> By saying this you win... by default you just win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said you were wrong, neither was I trying to be clever. I totally respect that everyone has their own ideal strategy. Ideally, there is nothing wrong with placing TF+Turrets in your base at start if it's your preference, if you do this often and still win the game, shows you know what you are doing and you place enough faith in your team. It clearly shows that NS is a deep enough game to have wide range of different comm's who each have a different role as comm. Variety is the spice of life. And I like defensive comm's...
i just played a game with kitten LOL!!! what a horrible comm...
we were on ns_nothing it was near beginning of game and i secured docking wing (mostly by myself) and he builds a tf and 3 turrets..... 20+19+19+19=77 RES!!! then me and egc arby died and well we couldn't respawn cuz an alien killed our ip and was takin out our base (kitten had no idea) needless to say he bitched about how he didnt have enough res to relocate or anything (wonder why.... lol maybe turrets?!?) then he said the turrets in docking got killed.. LOL yet again i wonder why?! turrets suck thats why. so i told him "kitten turrets are a HUGE waste of res." and his response was "your a huge idiot" lol i find it funny.
i have a new worst comm award and i present it to you kitten to you...
not to mention we coulda secured docking wing res with 1 pack of mines (9 res??) and 77-9=68 res that coulda got us an arms lab and armor 1(45 and 20 right?? i dont pay attention to figures anymore)
<!--QuoteBegin--Commander Kittens+Mar 27 2003, 09:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Commander Kittens @ Mar 27 2003, 09:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--psygnosis+Mar 27 2003, 09:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (psygnosis @ Mar 27 2003, 09:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm, perhaps at the beginning of the game, it's not wise to defend your base with turrets. Secure at least 1 or 2 hives first then defend them with turrets. Most games I play, the main base is always concerned about last. But then, most pub games just relocate to a hive if the main base gets the slightest bit of trouble. And I thought the main purpose of NS was to listen to your comm... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, we don't need a base, its just where we spawn. we can always just drop a chair at a hive while the entire base gets eaten by a few skulks that walked around the red lines... And as far as I'm concerned, If the other team forces you to relocate anywhere for any reason, you've already lost.
Yes, go secure hives before you build real defense... but what is the other team doing while you wander around outside base? they sure the hell dont sit in the original hive and wait for you to tell them to attack. They almoast always go for your base or take the hives themselves. You have to at least try and be realistic and logical in your replys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> who needs to secure hives? all you need to do is pressure the alien hive, so that they dont expand, and while you are doing that you tech an arms lab or Obs. Marines should be as offensive as possible in the beginning of the game, thats why most teams just use a few mines to deter ONE rush. Turrets are a waste of money, that res can be used to upgrading your marines. You cannot defend your enemy to death, instead of wasting the res on a turret factory and turrets, just have 1 marine stay in base with mines, its a lot cheaper and just as effective, since you need someone around to build your new structures anyways.
Again what is the deal of the myth that it is neccesary to lock down both hives? I dont know where people get this information, but it is absolutely false.
The only time to use turrets in your main base is if you dont want to expand, and your marines are terrible. And it maybe true that you beat an alien team with this strat, but they must have been even worse.
i agree 100% with firewater i tried to explain to kittens that if he really needed base d and didn't want mines i would stay around. I also told him that turrets are a waste and you could use that res to upgrade. His response was childish and immature so i gave up.
I've yet to lose a game as alien in which the comm dropped a TF early on. I've yet to win a game as marine in which the comm dropped a TF early on unless the aliens were horribly incompetent.
Turrets cost way too much which kills your early economical momentum. Worse, they need to be farmed to accomplish anything. 1-2 turrets are laughable. 3 is better, but a single skulk can still take one down WITHOUT DYING and create a blind spot on the TF. 4 or more is ridiculously too expensive for the early game. Sure you can say "I'll leave a base guard with those 3 turrets", but you can also leave a base guard with 2 pack of mines and it's going to be just as effective, and cost a whole lot less. 77 res VS 16. That's your arms/proto lab right there.
I don't see why you bash mines so much. Yes, they are not foolproof and there are ways around them, no one said otherwise. They are, however, MUCH better and MUCH cheaper than turrets in the early game. I really don't see what you're trying to prove. Yes, ok, you can suicide to take out mines. But guess what? You don't even have to die to get rid of turrets and they cost WAY more.
What we have here is a differance in opinions. AND THAT IS GOOD! Noone should be saying the other person is WRONG, they just play differently. Some people like mines, all the power to them, some people like turrets, all the power to them, some poeple like a mad shotty rush, all the power to them. There is no ONE stratigy, and instead of claiming yours is teh best just accpet that other people have other opinions, (and then secretly in your head shout NOOB OMG OMG NOOB!!!111oneone!1one).
Yes, there is no one strategy. However I guarantee that 99% of all strategies you can imagine do not work. This includes turreting up your base too early in the game.
I think you should marry this thread with the "slippery slope" thread. Really, the fact that the game can be won or lost so early one tends to have people wanting to 'pull out all the stops.' In that case a TF in spawn is a luxury.
Some of the people who were around in earlier version will remember that the comm used to ALWAYS build a TF in spawn since the games would last 2 hours and the spawn needed D.
i remember that <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> back then no obs or arms lab first . you built defense
Quicker speed of gameplay doesn't mean lower quality games :E Obviously 99% of stratigies will fail because technically selling the rt in base and then spamming meds until all the res is gone is a strat. I am talking about the partially good ones. A commander did an ip rush just outside their hive the other day, I had never seen it but didn't pooh-pooh it for not being a jp/hmg rush. We won in about five mins by the way.
i love weird strats my fave is ip/armory/mines mines mine then rush alien base whole team with lmg/mines as you get there plant all the mines around and shoot the hell out of anything there
9 time out of 10 any alien around will die to a mine.
BUT! this isnt about fun good strats
this is about a comm who obviously doesnt know how to utilize his resources and turrets **** when aliens can easily take them out (while with the turret building res you could have armor 1 weapon 1 and rape them)
<!--QuoteBegin--Commander Kittens+Mar 27 2003, 02:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Commander Kittens @ Mar 27 2003, 02:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I command a lot, usually more than I play a marine. I'm good to my troops, well know for success, I emplore several different tactics and I seldom let a game pass without letting the entire team have fun.
That being said, I can't seem to grasp why building a TF and turrets in base is such a horrid sin and instantly gets you called a n00b and most likely ejected. We were playing on bast and I knew from last round (I was an alien and we walked past dozens of packs of mines) that no ammount of mines would stop alines from coming into the base. Also I didn't really feel like building an obs and tech structures over and over again.
So I build a TF and the entire team stopped while ONE of the clannies taht knew me just started building. After that I dropped 3-4 turrets around the base as to cover everything equally and about that time the marines (- caln menber) started whining and screaming n00b even though I commanded to victory 2 3 and 4 rounds ago. then they ejected me. the new comm actually freaking recycled the TF and turrets and dropped mines all the while calling me a n00b and trying to start a kick vote.
As usual a few alines wend on mine runs and openned a hole... then the entire team just walked in and ate the base..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> mines can be effective on any map if done correctly. Mines are ineffective if placed in the wrong way... which is the impression i'm getting from this post... if you place 1-2 packs of mines ON THE GROUND by your structures thats all you will need with 1 base defender.
first let me address sobe, i wasn't calling anyone ignorant, I said it is ignorant (notice no person is named). Next, your right, I got my hive locations mixed up for Tanith, sorry. May my body be burned over hot coals for eternity.
Now for the rest of this. I loved the chart given for the breakdown of how many resources you are spending for turrets, mines, upgrades, and so forth. I don't see why a commander would simply NOT use the option of turreting an area for simple base defense. I think one of the previous threads said "4-5 skulks can easily circle strafe a couple turrets and kill them all in 8-10 bites each and take out the TF). That logic is correct....assuming that you don't have marines in the area. See, the problem for many of the posts here is that too many people are looking at their strategies as if they are in a vacuum. For example. If place 4 turrets in this room, its worthless because 3 fades can take it out.... thats terrible logic. You have to assume a SMART (key word here) commander would have marines go and protect the area. Further, lets look at this from the point of a mid to end game perspective.
Which of these is going to help in stopping a Fade rush? a) mines all over the place b)8 well placed turrets coupled with 4 decent marines
If you anwered A you would be wrong. Fades can easily by pass the mines, or, failing that, get some skulks to suicide into the mines to clear away for the fades.
Now the 8 turrets and teh 4 marines have a fairly decent chance of holding down a strategic position. There is no denying this fact. A skulk can't suicide into a turret (unless it uses xenocide in which case the aliens will probably also be using an Onos so this is negligible, PLEASE assume that the skulks don't have xenocide). A fade can't simply bypass 8 turrets and 4 marines laying down suppression fire. NOt even 4 fades could do this if the marines focus fire on the fades grouped with the turrets. So, logically, it is strategically smarter to use a little bit more resources to ensure that you have a well defended area that is both capable of offensive and defensive capabilities, then to try and use inexpensive alternatives to substitute for gauranteed base defense.
However, of course variants exist, and as I constantly am saying NO STRAT is definitive. If you find that laying 50 mines in a hall stops all rushes, fine... go ahead and work with it. I won't stop you. If, or when you lose, please look at my strategy for turret usage, and see if it helps. If it does, cool. If not... don't listen to me that simple. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
mr.bumbadumbaroop (i have no idea) were to go fade with another person and they both get redemption and adrenaline
each time they get sent back thats like a brand new fade
so overall yes 2 fades or more can stomp a marine outpost (acid rocket does splash damage with = no fun for marines)hell even 1 fade could.(if the marines had lmgs whcih they would because the comm wasted all their res on turrets ) mooz0r for yooz0r
Hey, i know, but i am saying in the abscence of mines you need to use something for defense. Turrets seem good. And about that 1 or 2 good fade. I don't know about most, but i have been able to kill a fade with my lmg, i would think others could too. Just look up my posts for the fade fear arguments. There is no reason a squad of 4 marines and 8 turrets couldn't handle at least 3 fades.
(Now, of course, I have just unleashed the famed Fade vs. Marines = marines lose argument dear god!!!!! seriously though to sum up this part, marines SHOULD be able to handle fades well, i have been on teams that have proven this point. Remember just because you can't kill a fade doesn't mean other/better players can't)
For early game i fully support using some mines, i never said i didn't. In fact, i think 2-4 mine packs is useful for early base defense. Come to think of it I remember saying that turrets are for the MID and END game. Hmm....Please, don't be upset with me, its just a game, chill out.
Comments
Kaniran is right as well... my strategy isn't set in stone....EVER. One strat isn't universally applicable. As a commander you are responsible for the adaptation of your team. If the commander can't adapt to a situation that is pulverizing your strategy, then you need to adapt or put someone else in as commander.
Further more, I am assuming your teams are soemwhat good. If you don't have good players on your team, then you'll lose regardless how amazing your strat is. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Sorry to dissapointe commanders that think otherwise, but there is no way to make a team of useless players win with your strat, no matter how good. The best way to overcome this is effective leadership and humanist approaches to your marines (not gauranteed to work). But thats just my way of trying to turn a team around. (this paragraph not key to my central argument on turrets).
Oddly enough, the comm that drops mines, watches skulks walk past them
when i enter a marine base the first thing i do is check for mines on the ground, then i just slowly walk between the mines and destroy whatever i want. the only time i cant do this is when there is a marine guarding or the comm pops out.
and with turrets there still should be a marine guarding and he should have a welder.
But then again there are infinant ways for one team to do one thing... hell, a well trained marine team can walk into the 1st hive and build a base there without the aliens knowing. thats a strat. hey, an alien team can get sens first and hide, they can never let the marines leave their base. another strat.
The way I work, I try something untill it goes wrong, then I fix it or learn from it and try something else. thats how I win games... NOT by dropping mines every round or turrets every round regardless of the situation. Its a trait some people call flexability.
FLEXABILITY learn it, love it, be it. Or don't command.
Aliens can achieve the same effect by dropping DCs before their first res tower.
You've got to weigh up how you want the first few minutes to play out. The turrets will be initially very effective until the aliens get carapace, but then so will mines. A bit later you will need a few extra turrets/mines - as the game goes on turrets become more and more effective as you get weapon upgrades, and they need less maintenance.
My personal preference is to drop 3-4 packs of mines for initial base defence, then come back and do turrets later after a couple of res nodes. If I see a commander dropping a TF first, I generally get a little nervous, but I certainly keep my mouth shut and build. At least until he's dropped the sixth turret or so without doing anything else or giving any orders <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I am arguing the ignorance of simply not using any mines, or not using any turrets and trying to justify such ignorance. Its as if we had gone into Iraq and said.... O"h lets not use our airforce for this one, they cost too much." A good commander works like Tommy Franks, you adapt to your situation, but you have to strike fast and hard. You don't build defensive positions till you are relatively stable in your combat plan and resource flow.
If aliens rush base heavy enough to make you place a tf in there in early game they have succeded in making you wasting that res.
<b>Ns comunity is intollerant.
a team gets the commander it deserves because its part of the team.</b>
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Im quite experienced in killing IPs in a base full of mines.
So as long as you dont block both entrances with 8 mines each and you think 4-8mines all over the base are enough for defense (no guarding marines from time to time) i wil kill reloading marines or infantry portals even if there are mines all over the base.
And if you have the free time in marine base (whole marine team is busy securing a hive) noone defends base, i kill a structure with bite, even if it has 4 mines just around it.
It has a sense of bomb-defusing but works because of bite range vs mine range.
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when an important place does not get defended enough I sometimes place a TF there, but rarely turrets after its build.
This makes my teammates yell "hey comm why no turrets..." but well, while they yell they defend the place at least <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Turrets come later...
placing a TF does not make you insantly a"noob". Thats ridiculous if someone were to whine about it. I'm sure as hell I would of been upset by that too but eventually you become immune to immature people. As most people know already, Mines are good for early game but by midway they cam become useless since Fades can turn the mine against the marines "BUME" and after gorge gets web as second hive ability, they will be coming in the base and setting off mines themselves with gorge spit.
Another thing some commanders overlook is the use of mines after one of two hives are destroyed. But making sure all Fades are dead before doing so <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and as for the TF, just ignore the bastads. You know your a good commander so don't let smart talk bring you down from your role. Sure its humiliating and frustrating when some immature freak boots you from command but you have to deal with it since every game has its stupid people.
You MUST expand or suffer losses later.
While, Dub was a little grimy (he has a knack for insulting people. been doing it to me for years.), he has a point. I consider turrets only useful for defence against Hive 2 aliens and for assaulting positions. Mines provide defence, but I think I've found the flaw in each of the games you're talking about.
Your marines aren't holding positions with your defences. As nice as mines are, it's a little annoying for a suicidal skulk to get blown away by a base camping marines. (place mines near structures, not on doors - you'll find a free range skulk can run in, but doesn't stand a chance when it goes to feed).
If I throw down 300 mines, besides crashing the server, I'll also have a weak defence. Suicidal skulk will go through any set of turrets or mines if there are no marines to hold the positions.
Mines will get you more bang for your buck early on. Nothing bothers me more than seeing an IP or 2, and Armory, and a TF and a commander with no res that spends every 19 he gets on a new turret. The fact is, you DO NOT have enough resources to instantly spend money on turrets and still remain effective and expandable. The res flow is way too slow. Make it a point to get at least 1 res node with your starting resources -have your marines camp it.
To sum up what I'm saying: your first 100 resources are too valuable to all spend on defence. Mines work against hive 1 aliens. Turrets work against all levels of aliens. Mines are cheaper. Either defence without marine backup is useless anyway, so see what you can discovere about getting a base camper or something.
Last note: when planting mines, you can either block doors off, or cover structures with them. Nothing worse than a mine on a phase gate and having a skulk phase through at the other end to get blown away. Blocked doors are as bad as TFs with 3 turrets. Once a mine or turret is gone, it becomes entirely useless.
And yeah. all those res on defences are better put to upgrades and medkits for the marines that are keeping offenses.
Turrets are static defenses, then can barely aim/track.
skulks can circle strafe turrets without getting hit. so can fades.
4-5 skulks can take down a TF in a matter of seconds if they all attack the same time. (10-8bites a piece)
a TF costs 20 res
a turret costs 19 res
4 turrets costs 76 res
96 res can buy 60 mines
2 packs of mines costs 16 res
an armslab costs 45 res
armor lvl 1 costs 20 res
weapons lvl 1 costs 20 res
an rt costs 22 res
an ip costs 22 res
an ip + armory + armslab + rt + 2pack mines + armor lvl 1 costs 150 res
an ip + armory + TF + 4 turrets + rt + armslab + armor lvl 1 costs 230 res
an rt takes ~ 1 min to pay for itself
an rt + TF + 4 turrets ~ 5 min to pay for itself
I could go on but I won't.
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That's another good point - the more commanders rely on mines, the more practice aliens will get at handling them, so the less effective they will be. Back in 1.02 and earlier noone used mines, now everyone does, and the aliens are getting the hang of them.
If you always use the same strategy, it will eventually be doomed to failure. Base relocation to Cargo Bay Hive or Processing are getting harder and harder, for example - you're likely to find 5 skulks waiting for you there now.
So adapt and survive. Don't be predictable.
who are you calling ignorant? Sat-comm isnt on that map...its on ns_tanith. Its port engine, no-name (or Mother hive) and Subspace...
By saying this you win... by default you just win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said you were wrong, neither was I trying to be clever. I totally respect that everyone has their own ideal strategy. Ideally, there is nothing wrong with placing TF+Turrets in your base at start if it's your preference, if you do this often and still win the game, shows you know what you are doing and you place enough faith in your team.
It clearly shows that NS is a deep enough game to have wide range of different comm's who each have a different role as comm.
Variety is the spice of life. And I like defensive comm's...
we were on ns_nothing it was near beginning of game and i secured docking wing (mostly by myself) and he builds a tf and 3 turrets..... 20+19+19+19=77 RES!!!
then me and egc arby died and well we couldn't respawn cuz an alien killed our ip and was takin out our base (kitten had no idea) needless to say he bitched about how he didnt have enough res to relocate or anything (wonder why.... lol maybe turrets?!?) then he said the turrets in docking got killed.. LOL yet again i wonder why?! turrets suck thats why. so i told him "kitten turrets are a HUGE waste of res." and his response was "your a huge idiot" lol i find it funny.
i have a new worst comm award and i present it to you kitten to you...
not to mention we coulda secured docking wing res with 1 pack of mines (9 res??) and 77-9=68 res that coulda got us an arms lab and armor 1(45 and 20 right?? i dont pay attention to figures anymore)
No, we don't need a base, its just where we spawn. we can always just drop a chair at a hive while the entire base gets eaten by a few skulks that walked around the red lines... And as far as I'm concerned, If the other team forces you to relocate anywhere for any reason, you've already lost.
Yes, go secure hives before you build real defense... but what is the other team doing while you wander around outside base? they sure the hell dont sit in the original hive and wait for you to tell them to attack. They almoast always go for your base or take the hives themselves. You have to at least try and be realistic and logical in your replys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
who needs to secure hives? all you need to do is pressure the alien hive, so that they dont expand, and while you are doing that you tech an arms lab or Obs. Marines should be as offensive as possible in the beginning of the game, thats why most teams just use a few mines to deter ONE rush. Turrets are a waste of money, that res can be used to upgrading your marines. You cannot defend your enemy to death, instead of wasting the res on a turret factory and turrets, just have 1 marine stay in base with mines, its a lot cheaper and just as effective, since you need someone around to build your new structures anyways.
Again what is the deal of the myth that it is neccesary to lock down both hives? I dont know where people get this information, but it is absolutely false.
The only time to use turrets in your main base is if you dont want to expand, and your marines are terrible. And it maybe true that you beat an alien team with this strat, but they must have been even worse.
I've yet to win a game as marine in which the comm dropped a TF early on unless the aliens were horribly incompetent.
Turrets cost way too much which kills your early economical momentum. Worse, they need to be farmed to accomplish anything. 1-2 turrets are laughable. 3 is better, but a single skulk can still take one down WITHOUT DYING and create a blind spot on the TF. 4 or more is ridiculously too expensive for the early game. Sure you can say "I'll leave a base guard with those 3 turrets", but you can also leave a base guard with 2 pack of mines and it's going to be just as effective, and cost a whole lot less. 77 res VS 16. That's your arms/proto lab right there.
I don't see why you bash mines so much. Yes, they are not foolproof and there are ways around them, no one said otherwise. They are, however, MUCH better and MUCH cheaper than turrets in the early game. I really don't see what you're trying to prove. Yes, ok, you can suicide to take out mines. But guess what? You don't even have to die to get rid of turrets and they cost WAY more.
Some of the people who were around in earlier version will remember that the comm used to ALWAYS build a TF in spawn since the games would last 2 hours and the spawn needed D.
Regards,
Savant
but turrets suck now so those days are gone
Obviously 99% of stratigies will fail because technically selling the rt in base and then spamming meds until all the res is gone is a strat. I am talking about the partially good ones. A commander did an ip rush just outside their hive the other day, I had never seen it but didn't pooh-pooh it for not being a jp/hmg rush. We won in about five mins by the way.
then rush alien base whole team with lmg/mines as you get there plant all the mines around and shoot the hell out of anything there
9 time out of 10 any alien around will die to a mine.
BUT! this isnt about fun good strats
this is about a comm who obviously doesnt know how to utilize his resources and turrets **** when aliens can easily take them out (while with the turret building res you could have armor 1 weapon 1 and rape them)
That being said, I can't seem to grasp why building a TF and turrets in base is such a horrid sin and instantly gets you called a n00b and most likely ejected. We were playing on bast and I knew from last round (I was an alien and we walked past dozens of packs of mines) that no ammount of mines would stop alines from coming into the base. Also I didn't really feel like building an obs and tech structures over and over again.
So I build a TF and the entire team stopped while ONE of the clannies taht knew me just started building. After that I dropped 3-4 turrets around the base as to cover everything equally and about that time the marines (- caln menber) started whining and screaming n00b even though I commanded to victory 2 3 and 4 rounds ago. then they ejected me. the new comm actually freaking recycled the TF and turrets and dropped mines all the while calling me a n00b and trying to start a kick vote.
As usual a few alines wend on mine runs and openned a hole... then the entire team just walked in and ate the base..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
mines can be effective on any map if done correctly. Mines are ineffective if placed in the wrong way... which is the impression i'm getting from this post... if you place 1-2 packs of mines ON THE GROUND by your structures thats all you will need with 1 base defender.
first let me address sobe, i wasn't calling anyone ignorant, I said it is ignorant (notice no person is named). Next, your right, I got my hive locations mixed up for Tanith, sorry. May my body be burned over hot coals for eternity.
Now for the rest of this. I loved the chart given for the breakdown of how many resources you are spending for turrets, mines, upgrades, and so forth. I don't see why a commander would simply NOT use the option of turreting an area for simple base defense. I think one of the previous threads said "4-5 skulks can easily circle strafe a couple turrets and kill them all in 8-10 bites each and take out the TF). That logic is correct....assuming that you don't have marines in the area. See, the problem for many of the posts here is that too many people are looking at their strategies as if they are in a vacuum. For example. If place 4 turrets in this room, its worthless because 3 fades can take it out.... thats terrible logic. You have to assume a SMART (key word here) commander would have marines go and protect the area. Further, lets look at this from the point of a mid to end game perspective.
Which of these is going to help in stopping a Fade rush?
a) mines all over the place
b)8 well placed turrets coupled with 4 decent marines
If you anwered A you would be wrong. Fades can easily by pass the mines, or, failing that, get some skulks to suicide into the mines to clear away for the fades.
Now the 8 turrets and teh 4 marines have a fairly decent chance of holding down a strategic position. There is no denying this fact. A skulk can't suicide into a turret (unless it uses xenocide in which case the aliens will probably also be using an Onos so this is negligible, PLEASE assume that the skulks don't have xenocide). A fade can't simply bypass 8 turrets and 4 marines laying down suppression fire. NOt even 4 fades could do this if the marines focus fire on the fades grouped with the turrets. So, logically, it is strategically smarter to use a little bit more resources to ensure that you have a well defended area that is both capable of offensive and defensive capabilities, then to try and use inexpensive alternatives to substitute for gauranteed base defense.
However, of course variants exist, and as I constantly am saying NO STRAT is definitive. If you find that laying 50 mines in a hall stops all rushes, fine... go ahead and work with it. I won't stop you. If, or when you lose, please look at my strategy for turret usage, and see if it helps. If it does, cool. If not... don't listen to me that simple. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
lets say
mr.bumbadumbaroop (i have no idea) were to go fade with another person and they both get redemption and adrenaline
each time they get sent back thats like a brand new fade
so overall yes 2 fades or more can stomp a marine outpost (acid rocket does splash damage with = no fun for marines)hell even 1 fade could.(if the marines had lmgs whcih they would because the comm wasted all their res on turrets ) mooz0r for yooz0r
Nobody said you had to spam mines either. 2 packs are usually enough. Replace mines as necessary until (if) aliens get a 2nd hive.
(Now, of course, I have just unleashed the famed Fade vs. Marines = marines lose argument dear god!!!!! seriously though to sum up this part, marines SHOULD be able to handle fades well, i have been on teams that have proven this point. Remember just because you can't kill a fade doesn't mean other/better players can't)
For early game i fully support using some mines, i never said i didn't. In fact, i think 2-4 mine packs is useful for early base defense. Come to think of it I remember saying that turrets are for the MID and END game. Hmm....Please, don't be upset with me, its just a game, chill out.
your friend
captain obvious