Fantasmo is dead accurate. By joining random servers he has no way of controlling anything that is going on with the participants. As far as I'm concerned it's all speculation and observational bias.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gadzuko+Mar 14 2003, 10:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Mar 14 2003, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anavrin, I both agree and disagree with you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> > Those kids might have increased their age, but the wouldn't decrease it. Therefore the conclusion that the younger players in the study had weaker teamwork skills is in fact valid.
Granted. However, this "study" is a comparative one amongst the ages. If you don't even have proof that the older ones are as old as they claim to be, then it's comparisons are not valid. On top of this, we have to believe that all the players even gave their age at all, and more importantly, that whoever carried out this study could keep track of which player was the 14 y/o, 17 y/o, 22 y/o, 37 y/o, and somehow spectate them all simaltaneously.
> You also accuse him of fabricating the transcript of the Onos attack,
Would you accuse him of not fabricating it?
> and of outright lying in his introductory paragraph.
Yes, I'm accusing him of lying in his claim that he's done extensive research in coming up with the study.
> It seems to me that you simply want to attack the points made in the study by claiming that the study was just a big lie.
And how! In fact, it's worse than a lie - it's a prejudice proliferated by studies such as these.
> I have met younger players who were capable of teamwork, but the vast majority I have played with have been unreasonable, easily frustrated and prone to irrational, unhelpful actions. What I see in this study is simply more of what I see in about 2/3 of the younger players I have met, and there is more truth behind it than you want to admit IMHO.
When I was 13, I was in a Quake clan of other 13-17 y/o's, run by a 16 y/o, back when Id Software kept a database of all official Quake 1 clans. Although I've dropped out of the clan scene long ago, I've been in contact with many youngsters. I'll readily admit most 14 year olds don't have the developed keyboard coordination or aiming and that their sense of humour may be crude, but they're eager to help the team and listen to advice. I'll also go on record to say that 14 year old players who open mindedly cooperate are the rule, not the exception to the rule. I guarantee the ones who purposely disrupt gameplay will never give you their real age. All I see are people outright assuming them to be kids. I guarantee that if a person is giving you a hard time on a server, they will not cooperate with you in talking about their personal lives. And if they do, I guarantee you that it's an outright lie. Even the older people who throw the proverbial wrench into the gear will give a younger age as to bait out the anger/hate towards those who are not as experienced in life. Lastly, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy to say "only younger players will not play by the rules." By belittling their will to cooperate, you don't give them a chance to cooperate. All these players who play selflessly most likely played selflessly when they were 14 years of age, driven by a desire to be accepted as a regular on any given server on any given game.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
This is a short disclaimer regarding my unoffical past and future "NS studies" and my responses to the many people who both liked and disagreed with them.
If you people read the first post I wrote a couple weeks ago I stated that. 1. These studies are not done in just any random public servers. 2. I state that the information was concluded through my own observations. 3. I never said that my conclusions should be taken as fact (because they are MY observations) 4. I stated that the information was the results of my own study and if you choose not to belive it then don't. I dont waste my time writing nonsence as I have better things to do. 5. I am referring to general population groups. I never stated ever that EVERY PLAYER that is young is a horrible player. I have played with many young and talented players before. 6. Why didnt I prove the people's ages? Well how am I supposed to do that in an internet post? I guess I could ask for everyones phone number and other personal information and then post it on the world wide web for everyone to see, but I'm not that type of person. People do not want their personal information given out. Simple as that. When I did this little project, call me stupid or presumptuous but I think I can tell the difference between a 13 year old and a 20 year old over voice chat. 7. The information presented here is to try to shed light on a subject that has not ever before been studied in anyway. Yes you could use the word "Study" loosely here but I dare say what I have done is a bit more refined and organized than anything else out there so far. It took me a long time to organize private closed servers and to get the proper people.
I posted this full paper at the request of several high ranking NS forum admins and Server admins. Many People including Flayra himself find this interestinig so I will continue with part 2 soon.
And by the way I made a typo, Im not perfect. Its Structural "Determinism" that is a word. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> As a reminder part 2 and 3 will focus on what i call the Rambo Epidemic and A look at how much does alien individualism affect their playing style and game outcomes.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
If you don't believe him, then don't believe him. I don't see why he has any reason to lie or fabricate these results. Yes, his standards of testing might have been a bit loose, but his ideas were correct. You wanna start a poll on this forum asking how many people have had more bad experiences with younger people than with older people?
What might be a good idea is to ask other 14 year old players whether or not they notice other youngsters as being more disruptive or are more willing to try to collectively win. They're the only ones without biases towards other 14 year olds. Of course, how you'd possibly be able to single them out would be a challenge. It's the beauty of cyberspace and anonymity.
Or how about a poll with the question "When you were 14, did you try to put effort into teamwork in online team games?" That'd also ensure minimal bias. There's always a way of polling that will minimize opinions based upon ignorance.
If you want to go ahead and pose it, I'd like to see the results.
When I click "New Poll" it gives a forum error. Why is it?
I'll assume it's locked so that people don't just start polls all over the place. Could a moderator please post the poll:
When you were 14 and playing online team games, did you try to cooperate with your teammates and take suggestions?
1) Yes 2) No 3) Wasn't playing at 14, but I would've tried to help the team 4) Wasn't playing at 14, but I would've tried to play it as I liked it, regardless of what the rest of the team needed
Basically the trend is that younger players are more immature... *gasp*
Of coure there are exceptions, otherwise it would be a rule and not a trend.
Personally I stay away from "kids" and gladly use their age as a way to discriminate against them. Sure, there are great young people out there but I aint got time to get to know them all and would rather bet on the better odds.
This study was fun, even though it is more of a structured observation then a study I guess. It confirmed some stereotypes that are valid... as stereotypes go. As long as you realise it is a generalisation you'll be ok. If young people are upset by it, great, that should give you some incentive to behave better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can't imagine that the "average" age of online gamers is 10-17 though, surely they must be higher. Granted that I mostly game in and with a community <i>specifically for</i> older gamers but still...
Ps. I was a lot less concerned with teamwork and a lot more into immediate personal gratification when I was younger myself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->14: Oh my … AHHhh, …elp help it’s a (expletive) ….. ant. Player 14 Dies. With a new death symbol in the upper right hand corner. 16: Ant? Did he say ant? LOL 18: Ant alien? hahahah 20: I think he was trying to say something else. Player 14 respawns: 14: No you tards. ELEPHANT!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I'm keen to read it, but I'm wary of downloading any type of document that could contain executable (VBA) code.
> Those kids might have increased their age, but the wouldn't decrease it. Therefore the conclusion that the younger players in the study had weaker teamwork skills is in fact valid.
Granted. However, this "study" is a comparative one amongst the ages. If you don't even have proof that the older ones are as old as they claim to be, then it's comparisons are not valid. On top of this, we have to believe that all the players even gave their age at all, and more importantly, that whoever carried out this study could keep track of which player was the 14 y/o, 17 y/o, 22 y/o, 37 y/o, and somehow spectate them all simaltaneously.
> You also accuse him of fabricating the transcript of the Onos attack,
Would you accuse him of not fabricating it?
> and of outright lying in his introductory paragraph.
Yes, I'm accusing him of lying in his claim that he's done extensive research in coming up with the study.
> It seems to me that you simply want to attack the points made in the study by claiming that the study was just a big lie.
And how! In fact, it's worse than a lie - it's a prejudice proliferated by studies such as these.
> I have met younger players who were capable of teamwork, but the vast majority I have played with have been unreasonable, easily frustrated and prone to irrational, unhelpful actions. What I see in this study is simply more of what I see in about 2/3 of the younger players I have met, and there is more truth behind it than you want to admit IMHO.
When I was 13, I was in a Quake clan of other 13-17 y/o's, run by a 16 y/o, back when Id Software kept a database of all official Quake 1 clans. Although I've dropped out of the clan scene long ago, I've been in contact with many youngsters. I'll readily admit most 14 year olds don't have the developed keyboard coordination or aiming and that their sense of humour may be crude, but they're eager to help the team and listen to advice. I'll also go on record to say that 14 year old players who open mindedly cooperate are the rule, not the exception to the rule. I guarantee the ones who purposely disrupt gameplay will never give you their real age. All I see are people outright assuming them to be kids. I guarantee that if a person is giving you a hard time on a server, they will not cooperate with you in talking about their personal lives. And if they do, I guarantee you that it's an outright lie. Even the older people who throw the proverbial wrench into the gear will give a younger age as to bait out the anger/hate towards those who are not as experienced in life. Lastly, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy to say "only younger players will not play by the rules." By belittling their will to cooperate, you don't give them a chance to cooperate. All these players who play selflessly most likely played selflessly when they were 14 years of age, driven by a desire to be accepted as a regular on any given server on any given game.
If you people read the first post I wrote a couple weeks ago I stated that.
1. These studies are not done in just any random public servers.
2. I state that the information was concluded through my own observations.
3. I never said that my conclusions should be taken as fact (because they are MY observations)
4. I stated that the information was the results of my own study and if you choose not to belive it then don't.
I dont waste my time writing nonsence as I have better things to do.
5. I am referring to general population groups. I never stated ever that EVERY PLAYER that is young is a horrible player. I have played with many young and talented players before.
6. Why didnt I prove the people's ages? Well how am I supposed to do that in an internet post? I guess I could ask for everyones phone number and other personal information and then post it on the world wide web for everyone to see, but I'm not that type of person. People do not want their personal information given out. Simple as that. When I did this little project, call me stupid or presumptuous but I think I can tell the difference between a 13 year old and a 20 year old over voice chat.
7. The information presented here is to try to shed light on a subject that has not ever before been studied in anyway. Yes you could use the word "Study" loosely here but I dare say what I have done is a bit more refined and organized than anything else out there so far. It took me a long time to organize private closed servers and to get the proper people.
I posted this full paper at the request of several high ranking NS forum admins and Server admins. Many People including Flayra himself find this interestinig so I will continue with part 2 soon.
And by the way I made a typo, Im not perfect. Its Structural "Determinism" that is a word. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a reminder part 2 and 3 will focus on what i call the Rambo Epidemic and A look at how much does alien individualism affect their playing style and game outcomes.
Remember. If you dont like it dont read it. lol
Or how about a poll with the question "When you were 14, did you try to put effort into teamwork in online team games?" That'd also ensure minimal bias. There's always a way of polling that will minimize opinions based upon ignorance.
If you want to go ahead and pose it, I'd like to see the results.
I'll assume it's locked so that people don't just start polls all over the place. Could a moderator please post the poll:
When you were 14 and playing online team games, did you try to cooperate with your teammates and take suggestions?
1) Yes
2) No
3) Wasn't playing at 14, but I would've tried to help the team
4) Wasn't playing at 14, but I would've tried to play it as I liked it, regardless of what the rest of the team needed
Of coure there are exceptions, otherwise it would be a rule and not a trend.
Personally I stay away from "kids" and gladly use their age as a way to discriminate against them. Sure, there are great young people out there but I aint got time to get to know them all and would rather bet on the better odds.
This study was fun, even though it is more of a structured observation then a study I guess. It confirmed some stereotypes that are valid... as stereotypes go. As long as you realise it is a generalisation you'll be ok. If young people are upset by it, great, that should give you some incentive to behave better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can't imagine that the "average" age of online gamers is 10-17 though, surely they must be higher. Granted that I mostly game in and with a community <i>specifically for</i> older gamers but still...
Ps. I was a lot less concerned with teamwork and a lot more into immediate personal gratification when I was younger myself.
Player 14 Dies. With a new death symbol in the upper right hand corner.
16: Ant? Did he say ant? LOL
18: Ant alien? hahahah
20: I think he was trying to say something else.
Player 14 respawns:
14: No you tards. ELEPHANT!!!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I laughed so hard.