Alien Tactic: Could This Not Work?
Butt_monkey_salad
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 11006Banned
Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 11006Banned
AFAIK, all alien teams have 1 gorge at beginning while the rest rush. But those <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> end up taking in their own resources which they just about never use until fades and upgrades come in. So I thought; what if u did an initial rush, but when u get 33 resources, all <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> morph into <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> , make 1 resource tower, and immediately go back to <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> and whatever they were previously doing.
Meanwhile the original DESIGNATED <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> player goes along building a bunch of chambers and can still get a 2nd hive up fast without designating their entire time to rez building
Meanwhile the original DESIGNATED <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> player goes along building a bunch of chambers and can still get a 2nd hive up fast without designating their entire time to rez building
Comments
it's a mixed situation, if you DO drop a resource tower, then going to skulk->gorge->skulk costs 17 resource points-- those are just *LOST*.
a gorge himself can cap those nodes easier, himself.
Sometimes I like a second gorge in big maps, where the hives are REAL far off from each other, or you're saving for a hive, and you don't need to go into any dangerous areas.
it all depends on how good the players are, and what each of them like to do
PS: If you *DO* gorge to make a resource tower, please 1) Ask the original gorge if it's alright 2) BUILD the resource tower, don't DROP it and then walk away. it takes forever for it to auto-build, and might get destroyed quickly. besides, while building it, your resources come in too, which means you'll get probably around 20 resources when you de-gorge back to a skulk.. which means it won't take much to max you out, and the gorge can continue his own building.
This is a very valid tactic if used correctley. but no-one uses it correctly. This tactic is fantasitic <b>IF</b> you protect your res towers. you know that "structurte under attack" message. When you hgeart that, find out what it is, and if it is a res tower, go save it. If you do this, then at hive 2 you will have **** loads of res.
This is a very common tactic on most of the servers I play, and if used effectivly, means that midgame whole team fading is very possible
every player * 13 or possibly *17 if going back skulk
that's a lot of res to waste-- a lot of res that ONE gorge could have used.
the main gorge should build around the main hive/ second hive. If the first gorge allows it (some will, some won't) then you can have a SECOND gorge to cap nodes. since he only evolves ONCE, that's 13 resources, he can cap a good amount of nodes (atleast 2, most of the time) and go back skulk.
while the other team (of skulks) are holding back the marines
Each player receives resources until they max out at 33 (for all non-gorge players)... After that, additional resources are given to the gorge... So a gorge will gain resources a whole lot faster when his/her team is completely maxed out...
So if you have skulks that just evolve to gorge then back, out of your entire alien resource pile you will lose 17 res per gorge... which that res could've been going to the single gorge...
Which all means: It will not work because 1 gorge would've gotten all the extra res after 33 per skulk... If you waste 17/skulk, then gorge refill rate will slow down until the skulks get 33 again...
Now, if you have carapace and want to cap a node, run off, do some damage, probably die, then with your new uncarapaced skulk do the gorging.
*shrug* Maybe I'm just a lot less concerned with dying than most players.
people don't kill themselves because of
1) Respawn times
2) travel time it takes to get back to where they were
3) having to re-get upgrades.
Each player receives resources until they max out at 33 (for all non-gorge players)... After that, additional resources are given to the gorge... So a gorge will gain resources a whole lot faster when his/her team is completely maxed out...
So if you have skulks that just evolve to gorge then back, out of your entire alien resource pile you will lose 17 res per gorge... which that res could've been going to the single gorge...
Which all means: It will not work because 1 gorge would've gotten all the extra res after 33 per skulk... If you waste 17/skulk, then gorge refill rate will slow down until the skulks get 33 again... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you are perfectly correct, which is why people dont do this often, as one gorge with max ress flow can build stuff easily.
A 2nd gorge is viable only depending on team size, I would say 8+ NEEDs a second gorge.
The fact is, doing the ->Gorge->RT->/kill (saving 4 rez each time, ty very much) means that as long as each skulk +use the RT they build, this will mean that each skulk makes back those 13 rez wasted in less than 2 minutes.
From those 2 mins onwards, the main gorge will have a MASSIVE influx of rez, and the marines will find they have to cut down MANY more RT's to place their own.
This tactic does work, is valid, and is used on most good servers I've played on, and most other players I know have played on. Because it works.
- Shockeh.
And you make plenty in the meantime. Y'know, in the time while you as one gorge would be +use ing each RT? And walking to the next one? etc etc.
Then that shows how little you know about the present kharaa resource model.
The more players on a team the less resources a gorge gets. If you have more than one gorge this is constricted even further. Let me explain.
All incomming resources are divided between the team. Skulks and other aliens get 1 share of the income, while a gorge gets 3. With each team member added the resources a gorge gets per tick are reduced, as the extra players share is put in.
So if resources are comming in at 1 res per second.
with 6 kharra, of which only one is gorge...
60 resources a minute.
8 shares of resources to be given out (3 to gorge) means each share is 7.5 res per minute, which gives the gorge 22.5 res per minute. Just enough to build a res node, and enough for a skulk to max out in in about 4.5 mins
if there are 8 players and only 1 gorge thats 10 shares. of which only one is gorge, and at the same rate, that figure turns into 6 res per share in a minute, with the gorge getting 18 a minute.
equally if there are 6 players and two of them are gorges, thats 10 shares
8 players and two gorges is 12 shares, which reduces a gorges income to a pitiful 15 a minute. In these scenarios the skulks are also getting less resources per tick, so they will take longer to max out, extending the period a gorge gets this lower rate of income.
Simple maths tells you that a second gorge isn't viable untill there are enough resource towers to support a second gorge, rather than it being dependant on team size. It is my feeling that the minimum number of RT's to support a second gorge for a prolonged period is 4, and thats at a push.
With regard to the original topic... skulks gorging and building RT's - it really depends on the game.
And actually, above a certain number of players, each RT gives 2 rez per tick, so in bigger games a 2nd gorge does become viable.
[edit] hmmm , staggering the process sounds more effective , as it's less likely to be noticed (marines could rush the main hive else) the extra gorges just have to pretend they're noob and run into the marine base. When the marines realize it was bluff , it's already too late.
If lucky , it can build a node completely. If they don't have enough ressources to build OCs , then gorges can try to harrass turret farms until they're dead (to keep marines occupied). If a gorge dies every 10 seconds (one exposes itself , the others hide) then it does barely any harm to the team. The last extra gorge builds WoL on a hive location before going kamikaze. If the marines don't counterattack immediately , there are already enough skulks to distract them to keep them away from 2nd hive. The remaining gorge sees its ressource counter boosted and can expand quite fast , constantly fortifying the place as the hive builds itself. Unless the marine team can build siege towers here , they're in serious trouble.
I don't see a problem with the entire team temp gorging at once... I can't see it actually happening - the liklihood that every skulk is going to find a free RT at the exact same time isn't that great.
I don't see a problem with the entire team temp gorging at once... I can't see it actually happening - the liklihood that every skulk is going to find a free RT at the exact same time isn't that great. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
All respect due , but I doubt it would work that well... the marines may find it a bit suspicious : if they see lots of alien suicide icons they'll react accordingly and perhaps assault/siege a hive. If the RTs are just dropped they may take a while to be built , and marines could destroy them in no time. Sounds too risky to work effectively against experienced players at least.
I am aware of that. one of the reasons it does so is to address the massive advantage marines have in these larger games
Resources are even harder to come by in bigger games (at 10+v10+ the res per node becomes 2 per tick. But the 120 resources comming in a tick still have to be shared 12 ways, 10 res per share, 30 for the gorge. That still isnt enough to support two gorges early game.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> GORGE RUSH!!!</span>
Worst case, you die and go back to skulking anyway. Best case, you demoralize and/or cripple the marine team. It's win-win.
Worst case: Your entire team dies. You guys wait for at least a minute before your whole team spawns back in. Meanwhile, the marines are free to run to your hive, and start spawn camping. Also...your entire team going gorge= LOTS res RES down the drain!
The biggest problem I have with this tactic is that your fighting forces (skulks) will be spread too thin. You'll have one less skulk, and you'll have to patrol more area. You think the marines are just going to LET your team roam free throughout the map, gorging, capping nodes? If they are, they suck! Besides...by the time you hit 33 res...the marines are almost ready to JP/HMG your hive. It is time to go LERK, not gorge.
Then that shows how little you know about the present kharaa resource model.
*snip*
Simple maths tells you that a second gorge isn't viable untill there are enough resource towers to support a second gorge, rather than it being dependant on team size. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a bit more complicated than that. With two gorges from the start, each gorge gets a bit less resources and so will build their first res tower later than a single gorge would ... on the other hand, instead of building one RT, you will be
building 2 RT's.
If you do the complex math (an excel sheet really helps) you realize that from a strictly economic POV, 2 gorges are better than one gorge in any game > 4v4.
The VERY fastest way to get up a 2nd hive is to use two gorges, each build 2 RT's, then one of the gorges /kills himself to let the sole gorge save up for hive.
Of course, EVERYTHING will change in 1.1 :-)
And actually, above a certain number of players, each RT gives 2 rez per tick, so in bigger games a 2nd gorge does become viable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The number of res shown by the res towers are actually not really what you get from the res towers. The total resource income is 10 + num_res_nodes * num_players * 2.3 per minute. The res towers just show num_players*0.23 rounded down (minimum 1).
So it's not like the res income per node doubles when you go from 8 to 9 players.
Oh and never underestimate a gorge rush. They can be really devastating. And I'm serious. of course it's not a viable match tactic but it often gets a laugh in a pub <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Then you see who leaves and who stays... Those who leave have never seen a gorge rush and those who stay just know what it is <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's especially devastating once you get webs. web a bit those IPs, build ON the IP, a DC and a couple of OCs, healing spray marines and other gorges... I say don't underestimate that <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well of course an organised team could easily kill the threat, but what's the point of playing if you can't have a laugh from time to time D:
I actually once helped win a game vs. pretty good marines with a solid gorge rush. If the marines go for an early two-hive lockdown, it's a great way to break in, since odds are they haven't researched weapons or anything, and heal spray makes the guy in front immune to light weapons.
I don't see a problem with the entire team temp gorging at once... I can't see it actually happening - the liklihood that every skulk is going to find a free RT at the exact same time isn't that great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All respect due , but I doubt it would work that well... the marines may find it a bit suspicious : if they see lots of alien suicide icons they'll react accordingly and perhaps assault/siege a hive. If the RTs are just dropped they may take a while to be built , and marines could destroy them in no time. Sounds too risky to work effectively against experienced players at least. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. I still don't see the situation happening too often. There's no real advantage in having all your skulks out of comission at the same time just to synchronise RT building for no reason.