Alien Tactic: Could This Not Work?

Butt_monkey_saladButt_monkey_salad Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 11006Banned
edited March 2003 in New Player Forum
AFAIK, all alien teams have 1 gorge at beginning while the rest rush. But those <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> end up taking in their own resources which they just about never use until fades and upgrades come in. So I thought; what if u did an initial rush, but when u get 33 resources, all <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> morph into <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> , make 1 resource tower, and immediately go back to <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> and whatever they were previously doing.

Meanwhile the original DESIGNATED <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> player goes along building a bunch of chambers and can still get a 2nd hive up fast without designating their entire time to rez building

Comments

  • MasterEvilAceMasterEvilAce Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10268Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    you can't have them ALL go gorge

    it's a mixed situation, if you DO drop a resource tower, then going to skulk->gorge->skulk costs 17 resource points-- those are just *LOST*.

    a gorge himself can cap those nodes easier, himself.

    Sometimes I like a second gorge in big maps, where the hives are REAL far off from each other, or you're saving for a hive, and you don't need to go into any dangerous areas.

    it all depends on how good the players are, and what each of them like to do


    PS: If you *DO* gorge to make a resource tower, please 1) Ask the original gorge if it's alright 2) BUILD the resource tower, don't DROP it and then walk away. it takes forever for it to auto-build, and might get destroyed quickly. besides, while building it, your resources come in too, which means you'll get probably around 20 resources when you de-gorge back to a skulk.. which means it won't take much to max you out, and the gorge can continue his own building.
  • LinkLink Join Date: 2002-10-16 Member: 1510Members
    Why do I keep hearing about this? Why do people keep insisting this tactics cost to many res to make it worthwhile?

    This is a very valid tactic if used correctley. but no-one uses it correctly. This tactic is fantasitic <b>IF</b> you protect your res towers. you know that "structurte under attack" message. When you hgeart that, find out what it is, and if it is a res tower, go save it. If you do this, then at hive 2 you will have **** loads of res.

    This is a very common tactic on most of the servers I play, and if used effectivly, means that midgame whole team fading is very possible
  • UnknownUnknown Join Date: 2002-06-12 Member: 759Members
    It sounds like a good tactic, but it seems VERY difficult to pull off correctly. You also don't need every one to go gorge, just enough to cap all the free res nodes.
  • MasterEvilAceMasterEvilAce Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10268Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Again, if everybody goes gorge, that **** adds up, quickly.
    every player * 13 or possibly *17 if going back skulk

    that's a lot of res to waste-- a lot of res that ONE gorge could have used.

    the main gorge should build around the main hive/ second hive. If the first gorge allows it (some will, some won't) then you can have a SECOND gorge to cap nodes. since he only evolves ONCE, that's 13 resources, he can cap a good amount of nodes (atleast 2, most of the time) and go back skulk.

    while the other team (of skulks) are holding back the marines
  • Azrael_38Azrael_38 Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14407Members
    From what I understand about the Khraa resource system:

    Each player receives resources until they max out at 33 (for all non-gorge players)... After that, additional resources are given to the gorge... So a gorge will gain resources a whole lot faster when his/her team is completely maxed out...

    So if you have skulks that just evolve to gorge then back, out of your entire alien resource pile you will lose 17 res per gorge... which that res could've been going to the single gorge...

    Which all means: It will not work because 1 gorge would've gotten all the extra res after 33 per skulk... If you waste 17/skulk, then gorge refill rate will slow down until the skulks get 33 again...
  • Captain_ChaosCaptain_Chaos Join Date: 2003-01-22 Member: 12571Members, Constellation
    Ok, now here is something I don't get. Provided the main gorge has the mobility and free paths to uncapped nodes, I agree with those who say skulks should stay skulks. However, if for whatever reason a skulk needs to gorge and cap a node, why does everyone think it takes 17 res to do so? It takes 13 to go gorge. It only takes a suicide to get back to skulk. Everyone suicides all the time to ditch parasites, why don't people take the concept with them to the Kharaa?

    Now, if you have carapace and want to cap a node, run off, do some damage, probably die, then with your new uncarapaced skulk do the gorging.

    *shrug* Maybe I'm just a lot less concerned with dying than most players.
  • IncarnatedIncarnated Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14429Members, Constellation
    I don't get why everyone insists on devolving to a skulk. Pull down the console and kill yourself. Bang, 10 seconds later your a skulk and back in the game free of charge. If your worried about the hit to your ratio, your playing the wrong game.
  • MasterEvilAceMasterEvilAce Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10268Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    that's still 13 resources, though.

    people don't kill themselves because of
    1) Respawn times
    2) travel time it takes to get back to where they were
    3) having to re-get upgrades.
  • MooManMooMan Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5154Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Azrael 38+Mar 13 2003, 01:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Azrael 38 @ Mar 13 2003, 01:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From what I understand about the Khraa resource system:

    Each player receives resources until they max out at 33 (for all non-gorge players)... After that, additional resources are given to the gorge... So a gorge will gain resources a whole lot faster when his/her team is completely maxed out...

    So if you have skulks that just evolve to gorge then back, out of your entire alien resource pile you will lose 17 res per gorge... which that res could've been going to the single gorge...

    Which all means: It will not work because 1 gorge would've gotten all the extra res after 33 per skulk... If you waste 17/skulk, then gorge refill rate will slow down until the skulks get 33 again... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, you are perfectly correct, which is why people dont do this often, as one gorge with max ress flow can build stuff easily.

    A 2nd gorge is viable only depending on team size, I would say 8+ NEEDs a second gorge.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Well, I'll take MasterEvilAce (Random D00D) vs MonsieurEvil (Dev)...

    The fact is, doing the ->Gorge->RT->/kill (saving 4 rez each time, ty very much) means that as long as each skulk +use the RT they build, this will mean that each skulk makes back those 13 rez wasted in less than 2 minutes.

    From those 2 mins onwards, the main gorge will have a MASSIVE influx of rez, and the marines will find they have to cut down MANY more RT's to place their own.

    This tactic does work, is valid, and is used on most good servers I've played on, and most other players I know have played on. Because it works.

    - Shockeh.
  • WildcardWildcard Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7787Members
    Eh maybe...and thats a big maybe...going gorge to grab a node the gorge cant reach at that given time(hidden node or such) can be fine if you ask the current gorge. But a whole team going gorge to grab 1 node each? no freaking way. 1 gorge can do just fine on any map given he knows what he is doing...trust me i gorge a lot. If we are talking about after second hive and near third hive...then fine whatever a second person can go gorge.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    The idea is, because all the towers are capped, even if the marines go LOOKING to kill them all, they won't.

    And you make plenty in the meantime. Y'know, in the time while you as one gorge would be +use ing each RT? And walking to the next one? etc etc.
  • AminalAminal Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10610Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--MooMan+Mar 13 2003, 03:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MooMan @ Mar 13 2003, 03:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A 2nd gorge is viable only depending on team size, I would say 8+ NEEDs a second gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then that shows how little you know about the present kharaa resource model.

    The more players on a team the less resources a gorge gets. If you have more than one gorge this is constricted even further. Let me explain.

    All incomming resources are divided between the team. Skulks and other aliens get 1 share of the income, while a gorge gets 3. With each team member added the resources a gorge gets per tick are reduced, as the extra players share is put in.

    So if resources are comming in at 1 res per second.

    with 6 kharra, of which only one is gorge...

    60 resources a minute.
    8 shares of resources to be given out (3 to gorge) means each share is 7.5 res per minute, which gives the gorge 22.5 res per minute. Just enough to build a res node, and enough for a skulk to max out in in about 4.5 mins

    if there are 8 players and only 1 gorge thats 10 shares. of which only one is gorge, and at the same rate, that figure turns into 6 res per share in a minute, with the gorge getting 18 a minute.

    equally if there are 6 players and two of them are gorges, thats 10 shares
    8 players and two gorges is 12 shares, which reduces a gorges income to a pitiful 15 a minute. In these scenarios the skulks are also getting less resources per tick, so they will take longer to max out, extending the period a gorge gets this lower rate of income.

    Simple maths tells you that a second gorge isn't viable untill there are enough resource towers to support a second gorge, rather than it being dependant on team size. It is my feeling that the minimum number of RT's to support a second gorge for a prolonged period is 4, and thats at a push.

    With regard to the original topic... skulks gorging and building RT's - it really depends on the game.
  • ApotheosisApotheosis Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8899Members, Constellation
    You don’t want your entire team to go gorge at the same time, because you then give the marines free reign over the map. Gorges are weak offensive units, and killing yourself to save the 4 res is fine in theory, except a spawn queue full of dead aliens also allows the marines to run free.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    The idea is, it's staggered. 2 skulks do it, kill, next 2 skulks, etc etc.

    And actually, above a certain number of players, each RT gives 2 rez per tick, so in bigger games a 2nd gorge does become viable.
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    edited March 2003
    Let's say this node takeover is well organized. Each skulk runs at the nearest free node , and gorges here.

    [edit] hmmm , staggering the process sounds more effective , as it's less likely to be noticed (marines could rush the main hive else) the extra gorges just have to pretend they're noob and run into the marine base. When the marines realize it was bluff , it's already too late.

    If lucky , it can build a node completely. If they don't have enough ressources to build OCs , then gorges can try to harrass turret farms until they're dead (to keep marines occupied). If a gorge dies every 10 seconds (one exposes itself , the others hide) then it does barely any harm to the team. The last extra gorge builds WoL on a hive location before going kamikaze. If the marines don't counterattack immediately , there are already enough skulks to distract them to keep them away from 2nd hive. The remaining gorge sees its ressource counter boosted and can expand quite fast , constantly fortifying the place as the hive builds itself. Unless the marine team can build siege towers here , they're in serious trouble.
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    The effectiveness of gorging just to drop a RT ("temp gorging") as a tactic is debatable, but the point is that it ONLY works if you evolve, drop tower and suicide. If you stay as gorge to build the RT, drop defenses etc. then you're costing your team more resources than you should. It utterly defeats the purpose of temp gorging and has the same effect on your main gorge(s) as the usual "too many gorges" situation (which is EXACTLY what it is).

    I don't see a problem with the entire team temp gorging at once... I can't see it actually happening - the liklihood that every skulk is going to find a free RT at the exact same time isn't that great.
  • StakhanovStakhanov Join Date: 2003-03-12 Member: 14448Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Mar 13 2003, 02:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 13 2003, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The effectiveness of gorging just to drop a RT ("temp gorging") as a tactic is debatable, but the point is that it ONLY works if you evolve, drop tower and suicide. If you stay as gorge to build the RT, drop defenses etc. then you're costing your team more resources than you should. It utterly defeats the purpose of temp gorging and has the same effect on your main gorge(s) as the usual "too many gorges" situation (which is EXACTLY what it is).

    I don't see a problem with the entire team temp gorging at once... I can't see it actually happening - the liklihood that every skulk is going to find a free RT at the exact same time isn't that great. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    All respect due , but I doubt it would work that well... the marines may find it a bit suspicious : if they see lots of alien suicide icons they'll react accordingly and perhaps assault/siege a hive. If the RTs are just dropped they may take a while to be built , and marines could destroy them in no time. Sounds too risky to work effectively against experienced players at least.
  • AminalAminal Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10610Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Mar 13 2003, 07:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 13 2003, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And actually, above a certain number of players, each RT gives 2 rez per tick, so in bigger games a 2nd gorge does become viable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I am aware of that. one of the reasons it does so is to address the massive advantage marines have in these larger games

    Resources are even harder to come by in bigger games (at 10+v10+ the res per node becomes 2 per tick. But the 120 resources comming in a tick still have to be shared 12 ways, 10 res per share, 30 for the gorge. That still isnt enough to support two gorges early game.
  • p4Samwisep4Samwise Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
    Heck, better yet - everyone go gorge at the same time, build the RTs, and then group outside the marine base for a....

    <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> GORGE RUSH!!!</span>

    Worst case, you die and go back to skulking anyway. Best case, you demoralize and/or cripple the marine team. It's win-win.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Right...

    Worst case: Your entire team dies. You guys wait for at least a minute before your whole team spawns back in. Meanwhile, the marines are free to run to your hive, and start spawn camping. Also...your entire team going gorge= LOTS res RES down the drain!

    The biggest problem I have with this tactic is that your fighting forces (skulks) will be spread too thin. You'll have one less skulk, and you'll have to patrol more area. You think the marines are just going to LET your team roam free throughout the map, gorging, capping nodes? If they are, they suck! Besides...by the time you hit 33 res...the marines are almost ready to JP/HMG your hive. It is time to go LERK, not gorge.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--QuoteBegin--Aminal+Mar 13 2003, 05:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aminal @ Mar 13 2003, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MooMan+Mar 13 2003, 03:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MooMan @ Mar 13 2003, 03:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A 2nd gorge is viable only depending on team size, I would say 8+ NEEDs a second gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then that shows how little you know about the present kharaa resource model.

    *snip*

    Simple maths tells you that a second gorge isn't viable untill there are enough resource towers to support a second gorge, rather than it being dependant on team size. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's a bit more complicated than that. With two gorges from the start, each gorge gets a bit less resources and so will build their first res tower later than a single gorge would ... on the other hand, instead of building one RT, you will be
    building 2 RT's.

    If you do the complex math (an excel sheet really helps) you realize that from a strictly economic POV, 2 gorges are better than one gorge in any game > 4v4.

    The VERY fastest way to get up a 2nd hive is to use two gorges, each build 2 RT's, then one of the gorges /kills himself to let the sole gorge save up for hive.

    Of course, EVERYTHING will change in 1.1 :-)
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Mar 13 2003, 07:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 13 2003, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The idea is, it's staggered. 2 skulks do it, kill, next 2 skulks, etc etc.

    And actually, above a certain number of players, each RT gives 2 rez per tick, so in bigger games a 2nd gorge does become viable. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The number of res shown by the res towers are actually not really what you get from the res towers. The total resource income is 10 + num_res_nodes * num_players * 2.3 per minute. The res towers just show num_players*0.23 rounded down (minimum 1).

    So it's not like the res income per node doubles when you go from 8 to 9 players.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    this actually scared me.. I noticed it being done a couple of times, but now I am thinking... What's going to happen when aliens have viable multi-gorging? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Oh and never underestimate a gorge rush. They can be really devastating. And I'm serious. of course it's not a viable match tactic but it often gets a laugh in a pub <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Then you see who leaves and who stays... Those who leave have never seen a gorge rush and those who stay just know what it is <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    It's especially devastating once you get webs. web a bit those IPs, build ON the IP, a DC and a couple of OCs, healing spray marines and other gorges... I say don't underestimate that <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Well of course an organised team could easily kill the threat, but what's the point of playing if you can't have a laugh from time to time D:
  • p4Samwisep4Samwise Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Mar 14 2003, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Mar 14 2003, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh and never underestimate a gorge rush. They can be really devastating. And I'm serious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I actually once helped win a game vs. pretty good marines with a solid gorge rush. If the marines go for an early two-hive lockdown, it's a great way to break in, since odds are they haven't researched weapons or anything, and heal spray makes the guy in front immune to light weapons.
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Boukharine+Mar 14 2003, 01:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Boukharine @ Mar 14 2003, 01:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Mar 13 2003, 02:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 13 2003, 02:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The effectiveness of gorging just to drop a RT ("temp gorging") as a tactic is debatable, but the point is that it ONLY works if you evolve, drop tower and suicide. If you stay as gorge to build the RT, drop defenses etc. then you're costing your team more resources than you should. It utterly defeats the purpose of temp gorging and has the same effect on your main gorge(s) as the usual "too many gorges" situation (which is EXACTLY what it is).

    I don't see a problem with the entire team temp gorging at once... I can't see it actually happening - the liklihood that every skulk is going to find a free RT at the exact same time isn't that great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    All respect due , but I doubt it would work that well... the marines may find it a bit suspicious : if they see lots of alien suicide icons they'll react accordingly and perhaps assault/siege a hive. If the RTs are just dropped they may take a while to be built , and marines could destroy them in no time. Sounds too risky to work effectively against experienced players at least. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Good point. I still don't see the situation happening too often. There's no real advantage in having all your skulks out of comission at the same time just to synchronise RT building for no reason.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    Gorge rushing IS a viable tactic even in clan games...
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