It's "elite" To Not Use Turrets!

Green_Meat · March 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">And it's also stupid.</div> I just spent a whole day playing NS on random pub servers and I see that suddenly its all the rage to tech rush and leave everything undefended but for a few piddily mines. WTH have you people been smokin? Don't confuse a good early game strategy with a way to live your life.

The game is still and (I boldly predict) will always be about territory control. You can't control territory with a pile of jet packs and HMGs in the marine start. I saw commander after commander blow good leads and massive resuorces because they wanted to pit jp/hmg combo against fades. It's a losing battle guys. Figure it out.

Drop some turrets, you'll be glad you did.

GSH

FlatlineUTD · March 2003

Well, people don't drop turrets too much because they're extremely expensive, and you could be spending those RPs on upgrades. Turrets also won't hold a location, we've all gone over this before.

Turrets don't hold a location any better than mines do once the aliens have 2 hives, so why bother placing all those turrets when mines will do just as good a job in the early game?

Sure turrets will delay an attack, but without marine support, *no* location will ever hold.

matso · March 2003

You need really massive amounts of turrets in order to truly hold a place. Spending 200 pts on fortifying a place, or 3 HA/HMG/Welder marines? Or 6 HMG/JP marines?

Also, you have to remeber the fun factor, especially in the end game. Don't treat your marines as building workers - instead of spending your last res splatting down turrets, give your marines some 12 gauge backbone!

ZERG · March 2003

Turrets are not for holding. They're for slowing and they do a pretty good job at it except once the TF is down the whole place is lights out. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

EDIT: Oh, yeah, if you plan on keeping an area for long, you will want some turrets. Mines don't last, they only scare dumb aliens away.

DrSuredeath · March 2003

Actually, that's a very valid strategy.

3-4 resource towers will usually give you enough resources to suit up
some Jetpackers with Hmgs and finish both hives before the second one go up.

OldManRipper-nC · March 2003

It's a really delicate balance of all these tactics. Going all one way or all the other works for match tactics but not in public servers. Usually the best way not to overdo it on turrets is to only place 3-5 in tactical locations and place 1-2 packs of mines to back these up. That will make the locations pretty secure until a gorge chamber-spams or the lerks show up.
During this time though you can get basic upgrades (weapon and armor) which makes your troopers more lethal in combat, upgrade motion tracking, hunt gorges, and generally cause havoc. I have also noticed that if you get the Kharaa team to focus on one area you can turret it up and they'll just keep on coming. This allows you to send out a small team to cap resources while you have them distracted. Best distractions:
1.) Turret factory within seige range of main hive, usually a good idea to make sure it also covers a resource node
2.) Locking down hive locations
3.) Locking down double res locations
4.) Locking down area vital to Kharaa movement through the map (containment is a good thing)
Don't forget to upgrade though... a TSA team on the defensive is boring, tedious, and encourages F4ing. If you can keep your team on the offensive then you will usually always win.

-OldManRipper

Typhon · March 2003

You can turret everything up, or go for a tech rush. Its either-or. Statistically, tech rushes win more games. Therefore, more and more comms are using it. However, if (when) that tech rush fails, the marines are completely defenseless.

gorthaur · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Mar 3 2003, 08:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You can turret everything up, or go for a tech rush. Its either-or. Statistically, tech rushes win more games. Therefore, more and more comms are using it. However, if (when) that tech rush fails, the marines are completely defenseless.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Umm... I dont think you see it right. In fact, you are rather wrong. If tech rush fails, you are completely defenseless, yes. BUT if turretting everything up fails, you are still completely defenseless! And notice the difference: failure of turretting leaves you MORE "completely" defenseless, than tech rush does, since after tech rush, the upgrades remain to help marines fighting aliens unlike destroyed turretts, which are truly of no use after their destruction.

TeoH · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gun_Sgt_Hartman @ Mar 3 2003, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The game is still and (I boldly predict) will always be about territory control. You can't control territory with a pile of jet packs and HMGs in the marine start.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You don't need to control territory with a pile of jet packs and HMGs in the marine start. Because the game is only about territory control if you make it about territory control. And FYI, they aren't for fighting fades, they're for stopping aliens getting fades in the first place. But they do a much better job of fighting fades than unupgraded marines and a turret farm will do.

Ph0enix · March 2003

TF and turrets at base are usually something delayed until mid-game, when an opportunistic skulk rush becomes likely and a couple of marines and some mines won't stop them. It's usually when you've got the game under control and it's instinctive that a rush is on the cards.

Until then marines are more then capable of holding them off.

And yes, tech rushing to JP/HMG is a gamble (in theory). In practice it's a lopsided one ATM because it's so easy to do. I'm hoping in 1.1 it does become an all-or-nothing strat.

Larry_Flynt · March 2003

TF and turrets arent that bad,dont forget,they are also upgraded with armor and weapon upgrade,so they are even deadlier in late game (which is a must,cause of fades).
So with a complete Weapon Upgrade a turret will do 30% more damage,while he is also stronger because of Armor Upgrades.

IMO u should go for both ways,secure AND upgrade...

Ph0enix · March 2003

Armour upgrades don't effect turrets.

matso · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Larry Flynt @ Mar 3 2003, 05:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> TF and turrets arent that bad,dont forget,they are also upgraded with armor and weapon upgrade,so they are even deadlier in late game (which is a must,cause of fades).  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
When fades comes up, you need HMG's or shotguns, not turrets. Few things more irritating than a commander desperately building useless 19 RP turrets rather than handing out the HMG's/shotguns that really CAN hurt the fades.

There are a couple of tricks to using HMG/shotguns for base defense.
#1 - don't load up on ammo - lots of ammo makes you move REALLY slow with a HMG. With just half a clip spare, you are moving almost as fast as with an LMG.
#2 - don't move too far from base. Wait in ambush around a corner, rush the fade when they come close. If you don't kill
the fade quickly enough, retreat and reload.
#3 - try to keep the HMG fully loaded. _When_ you die, the next marine won't have any HMG shots to spare.
#4 - don't spam your commander for medpacks. As long as you die with the HMG reasonably loaded and close enough to base, the team is better off not wasting medpacks on you.

Bw, an interesting trick to use if you have few HMG's but lots of soldiers - hand around the loaded HMG and have people load up ammo for it, then have them hand it back to you. When you die and they pick it up, they will have the ammo for the HMG, or if you run out of ammo you can hand the HMG to them. Works even better with a GL.

There may be a bug with this thought - the extra ammo does NOT seem to slow you down.

TeoH · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Mar 3 2003, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Bw, an interesting trick to use if you have few HMG's but lots of soldiers - hand around the loaded HMG and have people load up ammo for it, then have them hand it back to you. When you die and they pick it up, they will have the ammo for the HMG, or if you run out of ammo you can hand the HMG to them. Works even better with a GL.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That's interesting to know, i knew there was some sort of reserved ammo function but never realised you could use it like this. Anyone up for a game of pass the HMG?

Green_Meat · March 2003

<b>Flatline:</b>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well, people don't drop turrets too much because they're extremely expensive, and you could be spending those RPs on upgrades.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

They are too expensive in the early game, but what's the excuse in mid-game when you've capped 4 res nodes and have 100 RPs. All the Comms would do is just drop more guns and JPs. The soldier would be killed, the RPs wasted. The res nodes got torn down, the RPs were chokoed off and the marines lost. It happened over and over again.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Turrets also won't hold a location, we've all gone over this before.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I know that as an alien I can usually run right by mines, but I actually have to worry about not getting shot when a turret is active. Mines don't stop aliens from loitering or from building. Mines only work once before you have to buy more. At one point, we bankrupted the marines by simply suiciding on thier mines. They spent all of thier cash just keeping the mines on the doors.

Yes, turrets WILL hold a location. You CAN'T lock down a hive with mines.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Turrets don't hold a location any better than mines do once the aliens have 2 hives, so why bother placing all those turrets when mines will do just as good a job <b>in the early game</b>?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Mines are the better choice at the start, but they aren't going to stop a gorge from building a hive AT ALL. A Turret factory WILL stop them from building for a short time. Certainly enough time to get some people through the phase gate.

I bolded "in early game" because that is my point. So many comms can't get past their early game strategy. They fixate on upgrades and don't take care of anything else.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sure turrets will delay an attack, but without marine support, *no* location will ever hold.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Why is a lack of support a given for you? I expect marines to rotate thru the bases and do repair work. I expect soldiers to respond when a base is attacked. And I expect the proper infastructure to be there to withstand a direct attack for a minimum of 60 sec.

<b>Matso42:</b>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You need really massive amounts of turrets in order to truly hold a place. Spending 200 pts on fortifying a place, or 3 HA/HMG/Welder marines? Or 6 HMG/JP marines?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

First, your over estimating the number of T's required to hold a postion. Four T's and a phase is all that is needed. Second, you are not including the amount of a adv arms lab and proto lab, which is almost 100 RPs together on top of the cost of equiping you men. Your also not factoring in time constrants.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Also, you have to remeber the fun factor, especially in the end game. Don't treat your marines as building workers - instead of spending your last res splatting down turrets, give your marines some 12 gauge backbone!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I don't plan on losing, and if I was losing, then of course I wouldn't drag out the game by turtling. When it comes to burning those last few res, sure, ill try to make it as fun as possible for everyone. It sounds like you, however, go into the match planning to lose.

<b>ZERG!:</b>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Turrets are not for holding. They're for slowing and they do a pretty good job at it except once the TF is down the whole place is lights out. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Are you guys building this stuff in a vacume or what? I don't know what kind of experiences you guys have had, but I generally can count on soldiers to repair stuff. There a cool device called a welder, try handing some out sometime.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>EDIT: Oh, yeah, if you plan on keeping an area for long, you will want some turrets. Mines don't last, they only scare dumb aliens away.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Personally, I plan to hold the ground I take. Especially if it's in a hive.

<b>Dr. Suredeath:</b>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Actually, that's a very valid strategy.

3-4 resource towers will usually give you enough resources to suit up
some Jetpackers with Hmgs and finish both hives before the second one go up. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You assume too much. You assume that you won't be harrased while teching up. You assume the aliens won't find you res nodes. All it takes is for you to loose your armory or Adv arms and your plan is screwed. You WILL see fades at that point and they will choke your res. And then you WILL lose.

<b>OldMan Ripper:</b>

I pretty much agree with everything OMR said except his assumption that as soon as a lerk shows up a base is finished. All it takes in a little upkeep to keep bases perminently.

<b>Typhon & Qorthuar:</b>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You can turret everything up, or go for a tech rush. Its either-or. Statistically, tech rushes win more games. Therefore, more and more comms are using it. However, if (when) that tech rush fails, the marines are completely defenseless.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Umm... I dont think you see it right. In fact, you are rather wrong. If tech rush fails, you are completely defenseless, yes. BUT if turretting everything up fails, you are still completely defenseless! And notice the difference: failure of turretting leaves you MORE "completely" defenseless, than tech rush does, since after tech rush, the upgrades remain to help marines fighting aliens unlike destroyed turretts, which are truly of no use after their destruction.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If you let them get fades, nothing is going to help you. You MUST beat them to the hive and lock it down. Cowering in the marine start until you are upgraded is a sure loss. Marines get real aggresive at first and take a bunch of res, but then they get scared. Afraid to go out of base without max upgrades. Gimme a break!

You guys are "Black vs. White." You're mentallity of either/or just won't cut it. You MUST have a mix to be successful. The idea of abandoning tools because they aren't uber enough for your "elite" skizzles is stupid.

<b>TeoH:</b>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You don't need to control territory with a pile of jet packs and HMGs in the marine start. Because the game is only about territory control if you make it about territory control. And FYI, they aren't for fighting fades, they're for stopping aliens getting fades in the first place. But they do a much better job of fighting fades than unupgraded marines and a turret farm will do.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You need HMGs and JPs to stop aliens from getting Fades?! Um, your doing something seriously wrong if you can't fight skulks and lerks without the highest tech.

If YOU don't control the territory, then THEY will. WHen you give them the entire map, you WILL lose. You gamble everything on you soldiers being able to navigate to the hive and successfully kill it AND prevent it from being re-built, without any safe zone for them to retreat to. That is a bad gamble. You may have enough res to send 10 waves of super soldiers out, but then your out of res, your nodes are all destryoed, and here come the fades. Your so done. You soldiers WILL die.

<b>Pheonix:</b>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>TF and turrets at base are usually something delayed until mid-game, when an opportunistic skulk rush becomes likely and a couple of marines and some mines won't stop them. It's usually when you've got the game under control and it's instinctive that a rush is on the cards.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I agree, the problem i've been seeing is this sort of tunnel vision, where all the Comm can see is that HMG button. All they want to do is throw down the big guns until they run dry on RPs. It's nuts. It's like they think the HMG/JP combo is UNSTOPPABLE. Not just powerful, but completely unbeatable. Even when their supersoldiers are dropping like flies, they still persist. they abandon all else for the hope that somehow a JPer will get through and win the whole game for them. It's maddening. If it were just one or two games that went that way it would be one thing, but it was every single game I played had the same theme. Only three of the games resulted in victory for the marines. This was 5 random servers over a period of about 14 hours worth of play.

<b>Matso42:</b>

Your tips are great for late-game losing marines. A good comm and marine group who have locked down 2 hives will never see a single fade. You don't need high tech to do that either. You simply need to move with a purpose instead of spending all of your time and cash on tech-ups.

Oh, and gimmicky exploits like the one your talking about with the HMG ammo are a waste of time and are not practical in battle. Try using REAL strategy instead of some kinda "trick."

I'm not against upgrading soldiers, i'm all for it actually. But when you focus soley on playing with toys, then you lose sight of the real goal, which is strategic domination of the map. You MUST take, hold and defend territory. High tech only helps achieve this, it CANNOT achieve it alone.

GSH

Mushroomstamp · March 2003

Maybe thats part of your problem, you expect the marines to repair and rotate through the bases when in fact on pub servers you get a lot more ppl that have there own agendas or can't shoot worth a damn. Example, I was trying to hold alpha on eclipse the other day, figuring that it is so close to base we would be fine holding it with some mines and 2 or 3 marines. I was dead wrong, we lost alpha 3 times, sometimes your team just **** up and you should never assume that there going to do what you tell them to.

I'm with the half that believe a little of both is good. I always use mines early game and if I have a hive location a put a tf down, but I can't stand the comms that think a tf and 4 or 5 turrets is necessary at every damn res node, put some mines, put some marines but don't waste 100+ res on one node that probably won't last long enough to get that res back.

Vimstl · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Mar 3 2003, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Bw, an interesting trick to use if you have few HMG's but lots of soldiers - hand around the loaded HMG and have people load up ammo for it, then have them hand it back to you. When you die and they pick it up, they will have the ammo for the HMG, or if you run out of ammo you can hand the HMG to them. Works even better with a GL.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
How often do you expect to have a team this well coordinated? If the marines have this much teamwork - you are going to win 10 out of 10 times (or you will lose 10 out of 10 because your whole team is huddled around the ammo barrel handing the HMG back and forth)

This is one of those tactics taht only works in theory - the real world is not going to let you do it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

sekdar · March 2003

the way i see it:

turrets and the factory are static (nonmoving) buildings and are only usable in one place at one time for the ENTIRE game, making them 99% useless. Additionally, they will ALWAYS go down to determined aliens.

mobility is the name of the game. jetpacks allow marines to cover the entire map in seconds, therefore controlling a LOT more territory than turrets ever could. All you need is 1 marine and a few mines to cover your base early game, because offense is the way to go. Going defensive from the start often loses you the game - you can't defend your enemy to death. The best defense is a strong offense, it puts your ENEMY on the defensive and forces you to react to YOUR actions. YOU shape the flow of the game, and the ENEMY must react.

Turrets simply slow the progress of aliens destroying whatever else is in the room, which makes them useful for putting in hives to buy incoming defenders time, but that's IT. And they are damn expensive. I want to spend my limited resources on things that win me the game, not delay the aliens' win.

Darkhound · March 2003

The reason no one uses turrets is because they cost far too much to be effective. The absolute minimum for any sort of protection is 4 turrets and a TF (101 res). 101 resources is already a large investment, and we haven't even reached the point where those turrets provide actual protection because an average skulk with level 3 carapace can take out one turret and then chomp the TF with only 1 or 2 deaths. So, in practice something like 8 turrets are needed to really secure an area (177 res).

With 177 resources you can:

Build an Arms Lab, Proto Lab, Upgrade Armory, Research Jetpacks, and then buy 2 JPs
OR
Build an Arms Lab and get level 2 weapons and armor
OR
Upgrade Armory and hand out 5 HMGs and a Shotgun
Etc.

In turret form, those 177 res will only hold one resource nozzle, or 2 if you're lucky. Of course, by the time you have those turrets up the aliens will have Lerks and your turrets will be useless.

If turrets cost less, or if they weren't linked to the TF, they might be useful. As it stands though, they don't do their job in anything even remotely close to a cost effective manner. Thus, no one uses them.

Green_Meat · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>turrets and the factory are static (nonmoving) buildings and are only usable in one place at one time for the ENTIRE game, making them 99% useless.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So, in your mentallity, a turret is only effective when it is actually shooting at something, or more importantly, when it gets a kill. So how do you plan on keeping aliens out of hives. It sound like you don't plan to at all. It sounds like your JPers are going to get blasted by fades.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>mobility is the name of the game</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I agree, its called a phase gate. Try it sometime.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>jetpacks allow marines to cover the entire map in seconds, therefore controlling a LOT more territory than turrets ever could</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If your JPer has no place to land without getting shot and killed, guess what he's NOT doing: Controlling Ground. You mistake mobility for control. Your JPer is very likely going to die because hes going to hit some webbing or just run out of gas.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>All you need is 1 marine and a few mines to cover your base early game, because offense is the way to go.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Your base is SO dead. Unless that one marine is running an aimbot, then he's gonna die, and then those mines aren't gonna stop the aliens from tearing you base down. Four games were lost in that very way yesterday.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Going defensive from the start often loses you the game - you can't defend your enemy to death.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I completely agree. I think the tech-ups are good at first, the problem happens AFTER the tech has been acheived. Then the tunnel vision sets in, and by that time the marines are already losing res towers. The JPers gain ground quick, but it doesn't last because they die, the expensive HMGs are left lying somewhere deep in the map, and the res are drying up.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Turrets simply slow the progress of aliens destroying whatever else is in the room, which makes them useful for putting in hives to buy incoming defenders time, but that's IT. And they are damn expensive. I want to spend my limited resources on things that win me the game, not delay the aliens' win. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Once again, thats where we were having problems. Instead of dropping a TF and Ts **IN A HIVE** the Comms were more interested in Ammo lvl 3. You DON'T need lvl 3 against skulks, but if you don't lock the hive then your not just gonna be fighting skulks anymore. The tech rush worked at first but now the aliens have adapted to it and it is not nearly as effective as you still think it is.

For example, as a gorge i now put MCs EVERYWHERE. I put an MC every 30 feet now. The second your JPer touches a hive, three fades show up to blast him. He dies, nothing is gained for the marines. Talk about wasting res. AT one point a jper landed on our hive, and I MCed to it, put a acid rocket on him and he flew off. I instantly turned and touched a MC and was waiting at the next hive when he arrived. He had NO CHANCE.

Not to mention the scores of JPers I killed yesterday with the 1 OC/1 Web combo. Webbing the hives and watching JPers die became a real event on one round.

Yes, I played on BOTH teams all day yesterday and saw it from both sides. At one point, I even saved a game for the marines when I took over Comm, because I told the JPers to stop and build a siege base in the refinery. We were able to turn the tide by **OMG!** building something! Take the blinders off guys, your only hurting your team when you refuse to utilize the tools given to you.

GSH

Green_Meat · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In turret form, those 177 res will only hold one resource nozzle, or 2 if you're lucky.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Spend that on a hive and add another 40 res for the phase gates. Hellllooooo. Jeez, you people are sounding more and more LAZY. Just plain LAZY. Move ****, get some work done. Quit slacking and be useful.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Build an Arms Lab, Proto Lab, Upgrade Armory, Research Jetpacks, and then buy 2 JPs
OR
Build an Arms Lab and get level 2 weapons and armor
OR
Upgrade Armory and hand out 5 HMGs and a Shotgun
Etc.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You forgot to talk about the part where you didn't secure any hives and you got stomped by Onos. I dont care WHAT you hand out, unless you lock those hives down, then you lose. Every once in a while you'll get lucky and get some uber bada$$ player (whos probably cheating) who NEVER misses and takes down one hive after another. But basicly your betting the farm on equipping rambos because you can't co-ordinate your men.

Let me put it in black and white numbers for you guys since thats all you can understand. If your upgrading your men to lvl1 ammo and armor early - GREAT!, you SHOULD because you KNOW the aliens are coming with lvl3 carapace. But if your teching to Proto or lvl2 without having a hive, your VERY likely going to lose. YOU MUST balance you desire to play with toys vs. your desire to win the game. They ARE NOT one in the same.

I can't really blame you guys for thinking like you do. When I started each server yesterday, the aliens had a tendancy to leave the mined marine start alone, which lets your strategy win. It didn't take long for me to show them the weakness of the marine start and every game there after the marines couldn't achieve the high-tech because they couldn't keep their base alive with just mines anymore. Like I said in my other post, at one point we bankrupted the marines because they couldn't stop putting down mines. THAT was hilarious.

Concider this an early warning, tech-rush is soon to be a constantly beatin strategy. If it works for you, relish the moment because it's not going to get easier.

GSH

sekdar · March 2003

you completely missed my points, but thats expected considering when i do play commander, i do it in a very unorthodox way.

i only comm when i know i have reliable people around. i sequentially grab every single node i can get a hold of and get jetpacks asap. i let aliens build hives whatever they want, but since my marines are everywhere all the time, the hive gets mowed down as soon as it is placed.

i am <b>NOT</b> into the marine mentality of "grab a few nodes, lockdown two hives, then sit around and do nothing for rest of game."

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So, in your mentallity, a turret is only effective when it is actually shooting at something, or more importantly, when it gets a kill. So how do you plan on keeping aliens out of hives. It sound like you don't plan to at all. It sounds like your JPers are going to get blasted by fades</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yep. A turret thats not shooting is wasted resources in my opinion. And i make sure to get jetpacks before they get fades, to prevent fades from ever showing up.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>mobility is the name of the game</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I agree, its called a phase gate. Try it sometime.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

what does this have to do with the turret discussion?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If your JPer has no place to land without getting shot and killed, guess what he's NOT doing: Controlling Ground. You mistake mobility for control. Your JPer is very likely going to die because hes going to hit some webbing or just run out of gas.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

if three or four JPers can get wherever they need to be, kill the aliens, and move on, i'd say that it is a very DYNAMIC way of controlling ground.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> All you need is 1 marine and a few mines to cover your base early game, because offense is the way to go. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Your base is SO dead. Unless that one marine is running an aimbot, then he's gonna die, and then those mines aren't gonna stop the aliens from tearing you base down. Four games were lost in that very way yesterday.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I've yet to see this happen. One marine who can aim, coupled with a bit of distance between him and the entrances is all you need.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The JPers gain ground quick, but it doesn't last because they die, the expensive HMGs are left lying somewhere deep in the map, and the res are drying up.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I don't see the problem here as being in the equipment so much as it is the players.... JP/HMG rushes work more often than not when the marine players are competant. If the tech rush fails, well then you are SUPPOSED to lose. But if the commander was going for a long game from the start, then i can see that as the only justification for dropping turrets... but only in hives.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You forgot to talk about the part where you didn't secure any hives and you got stomped by Onos. I dont care WHAT you hand out, unless you lock those hives down, then you lose.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Not unless you kill them first, which is the <i>whole purpose of the tech rush</i>. Simply put, if the aliens are still alive when they get fades, it is no longer considered a tech RUSH, and it is considered a failure.

Green_Meat · March 2003

So, your basicly saying that you and your crew can't kill skulks and lerks without full tech. I see. Well, then do whatever you gotta do I guess.

I think the main problem is that people are too polar. It's either all or nothing and they can't see the benifits of having a moderated aproach. If you took the best parts of a tech rush (res grabbing and mine usage) and combined them with a more conventional Territory Control strategy (hive grabbing and roving patrols), you'd have a very sound battle plan.

I'll just end by making these points:

No High-tech is needed to win the game - AT ALL.
Anyone can win the game within 15 minutes - without ever buying a proto lab.
Doing so is MORE RELIABLE than a tech rush.

GSH

Darkhound · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Spend that on a hive and add another 40 res for the phase gates. Hellllooooo. Jeez, you people are sounding more and more LAZY. Just plain LAZY. Move ****, get some work done. Quit slacking and be useful.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I was assuming, of course, that the turret farm in question was at a hive. Adding phase gates to the cost only makes my argument better. Also, ad hominem attacks aren't arguments.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Build an Arms Lab, Proto Lab, Upgrade Armory, Research Jetpacks, and then buy 2 JPs
OR
Build an Arms Lab and get level 2 weapons and armor
OR
Upgrade Armory and hand out 5 HMGs and a Shotgun
Etc.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You forgot to talk about the part where you didn't secure any hives and you got stomped by Onos. I dont care WHAT you hand out, unless you lock those hives down, then you lose.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

A few points here:

Securing one hive is as useless as securing none at all. Maybe worse, since it makes the resource nozzle there more of a target.

The Marine victory conditions do not include "secure a hive with masses of turrets" -- you only need to kill them to win. In fact, doing so is counterproductive because A) It costs far, far too much and B) It doesn't work anyway. You simply can't afford to spend 200 resources to lock down one hive, let alone 400 to take two. And if you don't take two, the resources you spent on the first hive were wasted because the aliens now have Fades and umbra and will shred the last hive with ease. And you say tech rushing is a gamble?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Consider this an early warning, tech-rush is soon to be a constantly beaten strategy. If it works for you, relish the moment because it's not going to get easier.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Every marine strategy is constantly beaten. Marines have somewhere around a 25% win percentage on pubs. In all honesty, most of my tech rushes fail. There are several reasons for this, but mostly they involve marines not being able to kill skulks and res nozzles constantly being eaten ( by single skulks while being built by 5 marines). <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'> On the other hand, every single time I turret farm, either one skulk takes out the whole thing, or the fades and lerks come in and wreck it in 30 seconds. It just doesn't work.

Ashkajioni · March 2003

heartman , its very refreshing to see someone posting logical tactics , instead of repetative opinions over 'toys' as you put it.
Very VERY refreshing. I belive that reply should be webbed!
And i mean that seriously.

Myself , ive only played NS for a week or two total. And your post has made more sence to me then anything else here. Nice work.

-Ash

PvtLohne · March 2003

Darkhound has it right. Turrets, as they stand, just arn't desinged to WORK. Poorly agisnt newbies, near worthless aginst an avreage player, and anyone with any serius experince considers turrets an interesting side item, certianly they don't attach the fear one reserves for an hmg or gl to those things. and yet for all that worthlessnes, they're all still so expensive. Cut their price in half......or make them deadly, but otherwise, until then, no, people dont use something if you don't get your moneys worth from it.

Stoneburg · March 2003

Hartman is absolutely right, most people seem totally unable to think in a non-polarised manner when it comes to strategies. A combinatiom of tech and well-constructed static defenses at the key locations is in my opinion the way to go, not turtling, not tecch-rushing.

Basically tech-rushing is boring and a one-shot plan, if you actually use your commanding skills instead you can ensure both a good offense (and good chance of keeping the aliens from fades) and a good defense (meaning you are still in the game if they DO get thee 2:nd hive up).

Hartman, I want you to play on our server, message me your wonid and I will get you a reserve slot.

TeoH · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You don't need to control territory with a pile of jet packs and HMGs in the marine start. Because the game is only about territory control if you make it about territory control. And FYI, they aren't for fighting fades, they're for stopping aliens getting fades in the first place. But they do a much better job of fighting fades than unupgraded marines and a turret farm will do.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You need HMGs and JPs to stop aliens from getting Fades?! Um, your doing something seriously wrong if you can't fight skulks and lerks without the highest tech.

If YOU don't control the territory, then THEY will. WHen you give them the entire map, you WILL lose. You gamble everything on you soldiers being able to navigate to the hive and successfully kill it AND prevent it from being re-built, without any safe zone for them to retreat to. That is a bad gamble. You may have enough res to send 10 waves of super soldiers out, but then your out of res, your nodes are all destryoed, and here come the fades. Your so done. You soldiers WILL die.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You clueless newbie. Learn to read and comprehend. Replying to every point with varying forms of "What? You aren't skilled enough?" gives your posts all the credibility and insight of a 14 year old on a dragon ball Z forum:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You need HMGs and JPs to stop aliens from getting Fades?! Um, your doing something seriously wrong if you can't fight skulks and lerks without the highest tech.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Also known as "What? You aren't skilled enough?"and it is a non-argument. The tech rush, no matter what form it comes in is designed to end the game before the 2nd hive. The highest tech is not designed to <b>fight</b> skulks and lerks, its designed to <b>completely own</b> skulks and lerks, and the gorge, and their hive, ending the game. You don't need to control territory when you have the aliens spending the entire match defending their hive while you tech. Or perhaps "You aren't skilled enough" to offensively pressure the aliens and kill their hive before a second is up.

Turret farming both hives is *1* strategy, it is also an old and rather outdated strategy. Back when we were new and relatively inexperienced at the game (like you are now) people used to believe this was the only way for marines to win. Thankfully, people got smarter.

Calling tech rushes 'a gamble' is missing the point. Every strategy is a gamble. By spending all your res on turrets, phases, turret factories, obs, and neglecting upgrades - you are gambling that your unupgraded marine team can secure both hives before aliens reach a point where they can prevent you from doing so. Either by setting up defenses in the hive, getting lv3 carapace to fight you on an even footing, or simply mauling your main base. If you fail to secure both hives, and defend your main, you are screwed, with nothing to fall back on. Here's a news flash: <b>Competant alien teams will actually try to stop you securing 2 hives BEFORE you have a TF/Phase/Turrets in there.</b>

Offensive pressure, and resource gathering while slowing the alien tech leading onto a JP/HMG rush is not only a very viable strategy, it (or variants of it) form the basis for the majority of successful clan strats. Organised teams whose primary concern is winning the match have progressed from turret farming 2 hives onto resource wars and tech rushes. Does that not tell you something?

You seem to have a very poor grasp of time and resource allocation, let me just run down your suggested ideals:

You don't use turrets in the early game, you wait till the 'mid game' when you have '4 res nodes capped' and 100rps. 4 Res nodes, uh-huh. In this same thread you scoffed at a player who suggested holding *3* nodes while teching, assuring him that he was making assumptions about aliens not killing his nodes.... Think much?

You don't build a protolab in the mid game, you instead try to tower 2 hives and the marine base (Note post on defending base with mines and 1 marine) *In the mid game*

Let me explain something. There is a reason marine strategies attempt to cram so much into the early game. Its because if you leave aliens to their own devices, there is no mid-game, because you're dead. Midgame means fades, and fades don't stop for turret farms. Locking down a hive with basic marines requires you to have a significant advantage over the alien team who are attempting to stop you taking the hive. They are in a defensive position and you are attacking their controlled area. Pushing them back, then holding them off while you turret up a hive requires you to have a combat advantage. In the early game, you have that combat advantage, because the aliens do not yet have carapace. This is why hive farming is done in the early game, its also why taking the second hive is infinately harder than taking the first. If you wait, and attempt to cap res first, you are allowing the aliens time to get full carapace up. You then want to try and take 2 hives with basic marines against carapaced skulks in a defensive position, who by now have accumulated enough res to even place OCs in hives?

Securing 2 hives was a viable and popular strategy in the previous patch. The key to the strategy was speed. You had to gain a foothold on both hives before the aliens were capable of stopping you. This strategy as with all marine strategies is a race against time, you have to secure both hives before a) Aliens take another hive and get fades thus killing you. or b) Aliens get carapace and enough resources to defend a hive, allowing them to then build it and get fades thus killing you.

The principles of this strategy are the same as the principles of a tech rush - you don't let them get fades. Towering 2 hives prevents aliens getting a second hive, thus preventing them from getting fades. Rushing with JPs prevents aliens from getting fades by killing their main hive, thus ending the game. Both are a gamble, both are a race against time, and if the aliens get both hives up for enough time to go fade, both are screwed. With this in mind, consider how stupid you sound when you argue against JP tech with comments like this:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
sounds like your JPers are going to get blasted by fades.

Your JPer is very likely going to die because hes going to hit some webbing

i now put MCs EVERYWHERE. I put an MC every 30 feet now. The second your JPer touches a hive, three fades show up to blast him.

I MCed to it, put a acid rocket on him

I killed yesterday with the 1 OC/1 Web combo

you got stomped by Onos
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

....And if the tech rush is being executed properly, the whole point is that they don't get 2 hives. Towers will do no more good against any of the above than JP/HMG's will. Do you assume you can just walk in and tower both hives and thats it? If alien teams were clueless enough to just let you tower 2 hives we'd all be doing it. Both strategies depend on them being pulled off before the aliens have 2 hive tech. Comments to the effect of 'JPs won't help you against fades' are pointless, because the rush is intended to be executed before fades anyway, in much the same way you intend to get into an alien hive and tower it before fades are available.

You are driven by 2 large missconceptions: Firstly, the idea that marines cannot go into a hive and kill it unless they have also towered up 90% of the map and have HA/HMG/Welders and full upgrades. Secondly, the idea that the only way to prevent fades is to secure hives.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
At one point, we bankrupted the marines by simply suiciding on thier mines. They spent all of thier cash just keeping the mines on the doors.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yes, and i've knifed several ONOS. I'm not about to start a thread about how pointless it is to secure hives or tech up because all you need is a knife....

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Four T's and a phase is all that is needed.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Obs - 25
TF - 20
4 Turrets - 76
2 Phases - 50

171 res. Not much of an exaggeration.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You assume too much. You assume that you won't be harrased while teching up. You assume the aliens won't find you res nodes. All it takes is for you to loose your armory or Adv arms and your plan is screwed. You WILL see fades at that point and they will choke your res. And then you WILL lose.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You assume that you can cap 4 res towers, upgrade weapons and armour at your base and then, after aliens have full cara, expect to be able to move out, occupy both free hives (Which you assume are not already covered in OCs) and then fight off the entire lv3 cara alien team, twice, while you set up a turret farm and phase in both hives and the marine base with your 4 res towers which you assume won't be chomped, and manage all of this before a 2nd hive goes up. All it takes is for you to be pushed out of the second hive, by an alien team who saw your incredibly telegraphed strat a mile off and were ready in defence, and with cara are more than capable of holding you back or skirmishing with you for the time it takes the gorge to get the hive up, and your plan is screwed. You will see fades, and they will eat your turrets, and then you WILL lose.

Look mummy, i can play this game too.

sekdar · March 2003

i think teoh just owned every person who posted in this thread, regardless of stance on the issue <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>

Lord_Of_The_Pings · March 2003

lets put it like this, turrets can be put to devastating effect,eg. setting up a devils garden i.e. turrets on both sides so that they crossfire, mines near the entrances i.e.motion mines and the odd player

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'>-------------------<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'>-------------------
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'>-------------------<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'>-------------------

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Ph0enix · March 2003

As far as I can see, there are 3 broad strategies for marines. Kharaa just try to prevent them and get hives up.

1. Kill 1st hive before 2nd comes up.
2. Get one hive and tech up to fight fades.
3. Classic 2-hive lockdown.

How you actually do this is a different kettle of fish, but, getting back on-topic.....

Options 2 and 3 need TFs. Option 1 doesn't.