JP/HMG rushes will be drastically slowed down in NS 1.1 (at least that is what I learned from reading the NS 1.1 thread). So I don't think it will be as useful as it is now (is it? To tell the truth I have never seen a successful tech-rush on public servers apart from servers with 12+ marines). In nearly every game I played the marines built some turrets in 1-2 hives and it's really hard to destroy them if they are placed properly. Turrets cannot be meant to be mid-game stuff because Fades destroy them way to easy. So they must be early game stuff. Or are they meant to be useless? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fades only destroy turrets easily if they're left unattended, there are only a few, and there aren't enough weapon upgrades. By the time weapons get to level 2, turrets sting. By level 3 they are painful, even to the almighty fade. As you tech up in the arms labs, your turret outposts get stronger. As long as marines respond to requests to defend an area, and you have a phase, it is really not that hard to defend outposts with turrets, even when aliens have two hives.
Turrets are just another way of slowing aliens down from taking your stuff. Use them in conjunction with the basic strategy of keeping them too busy to want to waste time killing turrets.
I still think turrents can be used properly. But after the thread teoh just droped... im gona shut my mouth befor i feel the wrath of the arrogance. SO MANY HATEFUL PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM
SHOW SOME <span style='color:red'> Love <3 </span>
Flexibility of command should be the order of the day. Make your judgements based on how your marines are performing against the aliens.
If you play on a pub server, where every marine is a rambo screaming for jet packs and HMG's then you might as well go down that track or be ejected.
If you play on a reasonably organised server, in which people have assigned roles/tasks, then you can try numerous strategies.
ie. jet pack rush, two hive lockdown, one hive lockdown (quickly capturing res) and go HA and/or JP's, or as has happened on quite a number of occasions, recycle the whole base, give everyone a shotty and take out the alien hive. Taking hives with only a phase gate and some mine packs and then continually attacking the next adjacent hive. It all depends on how the game progresses. If the comm has voice comm and confidence of his team, then the strategies tend to evolve as the game progresses.
The options on organised servers with all regular players are much greater than a pub server with no admins filled with rambos.
When you fire up your game browser and pick a server, you make your decision then as to what type of game you will be playing. Personally I like playing with players I know and can trust to follow a plan. I have visited other servers for the novelty of seeing how the other side lives. I pity you. LOL! Your really missing out on the depth of strategies that this game can offer. I won't say our server is perfect, but it beats most pub servers hands down. It really comes down to the quality of players on the server and how they are distributed after everyone selects a team. On our server, the regulars mostly go random, and the new players mostly go marine. This tends to make the aliens win a lot as the random choosers end up on aliens. When we have all regs on marines and one of our good comms in the chair, it can be pretty hard for the aliens to win, but we pull it off sometimes.
In summary, strategies and flexibility in strategies is dependant on the server you are playing on, and the quality of the players on at the time. Servers with no admins are a waste of time. Any game can be disrupted by a single lamer joining the server and there seems to be no shortage of lamers. Choose your servers wisely. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can think of only one map where turret farming with 1 hive will work, and thats NS_nothing. If you manage to hold the entire top level siege omnius from top lift and siege forboding from top quad aliens wont have the res to out fade level 3 weapons/HA. The thing is if you managed to get that far the aliens couldnt really of been that agressive and deserve what they got.
Any turret farm is pointless untill the aliens have level 3 cara, and when they do boy do you want alot of turrets/ammo uppys. A decent cara3 skulk rush can take out PG 4 turrets and tfac with ease in 10.4.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Mar 4 2003, 06:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Mar 4 2003, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> best.post.ever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You wouldn't happen to have stairs in your house, would you?
If it pleases you to build turrets do so, if it displeases you don't.
On pubs there is no hard and fast rules for success. I've seen a commander win by locking down the hives with tfac/turrets then sent the team around to protect <i>every</i> node with tfac/turrets. Might not have been the most efficient or even the smartest strategy but hey, the marines had fun, the aliens had fun, and the comm had fun.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
the problem with locking down one hiveisthat you eventually lose the resource race. Once the aliens get two hives all your non-turreted places (read, any res nozzles outsideof hive and marinestart) will get destoryed, leaving you with two res nozzles possible a few upgrades. That, vs aliens with mostlike mostother res nozzlesonthe map=bad situation. Say you down a fade for every Ha/HMG the aliens take down. It sounds like fair trade, but with the aliens rolling in dough, you WILL lose!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By level 3 they are painful, even to the almighty fade<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Painful? Instagib is a better way to describe it. In a recent game, I researched level 3 weapons just as our second hive was going down. Seeing as the game was over I just built like constant turrets. Killed all the fades and even got about 4 Onos. I handed out tons of welders so don't even bother saying the turrets would eventually degrade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you completely missed my points, but thats expected considering when i do play commander, i do it in a very unorthodox way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, I’m obviously an idiot. Please, tell me your point in one sentence with as few syllables as possible, so that even I can grasp it. Thank you for your co-operation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i only comm when I know I have reliable people around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I ever play are random public servers, and you know what, I find a pretty good class of players there. People rise or fall to the level of your expectations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i sequentially grab every single node i can get a hold of and get jetpacks asap. i let aliens build hives whatever they want, but since my marines are everywhere all the time, the hive gets mowed down as soon as it is placed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grabbing res, i like that. Getting JP asap, i like that too! The rest sucks though. Your giving up the map, your men are off ramboing, and you think that hives just go poof! Get real man, and stop looking for a gimmick. Why do people always have to have a gimmick?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i am NOT into the marine mentality of "grab a few nodes, lockdown two hives, then sit around and do nothing for rest of game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither am I. If you can cap two hives with the stuff you've got, then there's no reason why you can't finish the game. See, once again, your thinking about your toys. Your thinking about sitting around while you tech up, which of course, you don't need to do. Just finish the game. That's the whole reason tech rush is popular right now, because of the "fun factor", which I agree, it IS pretty fun even when you lose because you still get to use the tech stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yep. A turret thats not shooting is wasted resources in my opinion. And i make sure to get jetpacks before they get fades, to prevent fades from ever showing up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the immortal words of the Smash-TV announcer: "GOOOOD LUCK! YOOOU'LL NEED IT!" Even in the games in which the tech-rush worked, it was still a tie between the JPs and the fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what does this have to do with the turret discussion?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said mobility is the name of the game. I agree. I use the ultimate in mobility: The Phase Gate. You simply can't beat INSTANT access to a location.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if three or four JPers can get wherever they need to be, kill the aliens, and move on, i'd say that it is a very DYNAMIC way of controlling ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if they have a safe place to land or hover. Something we're going to see more of is less WOLs and more of a spread of OCs, giving soldiers no place to loiter. I've already begun doing this with an exceptionally high success rate, especially against JPers because it only takes one web to bring em down, and then they always land in between two OCs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've yet to see this happen. One marine who can aim, coupled with a bit of distance between him and the entrances is all you need.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gun only shoots in one direction at a time, and you gotta reload sometime. My base guard gets help; you leave yours out to die. Way to comm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see the problem here as being in the equipment so much as it is the players.... JP/HMG rushes work more often than not when the marine players are competant. If the tech rush fails, well then you are SUPPOSED to lose. But if the commander was going for a long game from the start, then i can see that as the only justification for dropping turrets... but only in hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again: People rise or fall to the level of your expectations.
My timetable for a round is about 15 minutes. Now, maybe a 15-minute round is a long game to you, but that's a matter of perspective i guess. I guess getting it done in 11 with a tech-gamble is more uber in you opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not unless you kill them first, which is the whole purpose of the tech rush. Simply put, if the aliens are still alive when they get fades, it is no longer considered a tech RUSH, and it is considered a failure<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's the trick now isn't it?
<b>DarkHound:</b>
I love it when people prove my point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was assuming, of course, that the turret farm in question was at a hive. Adding phase gates to the cost only makes my argument better. Also, ad hominem attacks aren't arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember what i was saying about all Black vs. White? That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. When have I advocated "farming"? I'm talking about the minimum it takes to hold the fort. Four turrets does not make a farm. I hate it when people ignore what i've said and inject their own expectations of what they want me to be saying.
And NO, the phase gate does NOT make your argument better because with the phase system in operation the same four turrets will last the length of the round. You count the base as a total lost of RPs, but that is because you assume that it won't get kept up. Why would you assume that? . If you call on a person to be a maintenance man, alot of times they're happy to do it. Oh, throw in the price of 4 welders too (4 assumes loss due to attacks).
The base allows your team to keep advancing. All they do is build the phase. Your maintenance man pops thru. They guard the MM while he builds the TF. They bail while he locks down the hive. Upgrades are a major part of the strategy, but so are TFs and PGs. A mix. A well rounded approach to the task at hand is NOT A GAMBLE. Go to Vegas if you wanna gamble. I like to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Securing one hive is as useless as securing none at all. Maybe worse, since it makes the resource nozzle there more of a target.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, you must secure TWO hives. Two hives, eight minutes or less. You can't make anything in a hive MORE of a target. It's already the highest priority target there is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Marine victory conditions do not include "secure a hive with masses of turrets" -- you only need to kill them to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The conditions to win are to eliminate all three hives. Preventing re-growth is essential. I do not leave that to chance and I don't need "masses of turrets" to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, doing so is counterproductive because A) It costs far, far too much and B) It doesn't work anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, it always cheeses me off when someone states their OPINION as a fact. The above quote is an opinion. IN FACT, it is an opinion based on "Turret Farming", which I am NOT talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You simply can't afford to spend 200 resources to lock down one hive, let alone 400 to take two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't afford not to. You throw those numbers out there with visions of JPers dancing in your head. I'm telling you right now, before you start seeing it widespread: Soon you'll be able to spend 800 RPs and never get a single JPer off the ground. You mark my words. The tech-rush is FUNDIMENTALLY FLAWED. It is easy to counter, and soon it won't be viable at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you don't take two, the resources you spent on the first hive were wasted because the aliens now have Fades and umbra and will shred the last hive with ease. And you say tech rushing is a gamble?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking two hives in early game is a cakewalk compared to peter-panning through fades. Yes, I am that confident that the tech-gamble will be increasingly suicidal. The Achilles heel is in the expense of the Labs/armory and the poor defense. Surely you see how you set yourselves up for failure. On top of that, add not securing hives and it really does become laughable. I really don't care how good your soldiers are. The whole plan is basackwards. I give it this: it certainly was a good idea at first because of it's bold daring, but like Top40 song, it's been way overplayed. And the desperation that I saw guys holding onto it with was really kinda sad. It was just like they wanted to believe so bad that it could work THIS time. I say this, there is one way to make it a sure bet every time: crank up your aimbots, because that’s what the strategy is really designed for – super accurate firing by soldiers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every marine strategy is constantly beaten. Marines have somewhere around a 25% win percentage on pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That comes from a lack a variation from round to round. You have guys trying the exact same thing over and over and you'll get that. Even the best of comms will get beaten if they get in a rut, but then, the best comms don't get in a ruts, do they?. It's just like Tekken. The same combo over and over will get you beat down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all honesty, most of my tech rushes fail. There are several reasons for this, but mostly they involve marines not being able to kill skulks and res nozzles constantly being eaten ( by single skulks while being built by 5 marines). On the other hand, every single time I turret farm, either one skulk takes out the whole thing, or the fades and lerks come in and wreck it in 30 seconds. It just doesn't work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black or White. Try shades of gray next time.
<b>Ash:</b>
It's refreshing to see a friendly face <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Thanks for the backup man. I really do appreciate it. Alot of people wouldn't even stick their neck out.
<b>Pvt. Lohne:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Turrets, as they stand, just arn't desinged to WORK. Poorly agisnt newbies, near worthless aginst an avreage player, and anyone with any serius experince considers turrets an interesting side item, certianly they don't attach the fear one reserves for an hmg or gl to those things. and yet for all that worthlessnes, they're all still so expensive. Cut their price in half......or make them deadly, but otherwise, until then, no, people dont use something if you don't get your moneys worth from it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you really understand what the turrets are designed to do. They keep the aliens moving. That’s ALL they've gotta do. I'm not talking about in a "general sense" of the words, I mean literally. You can't stand still around turrets. You can't just walk in and setup if there's an enemy base their. That’s the whole point. You MUST attack it. Right? If you wanna be there, your gonna have to kill that stuff, right? You people act like your not being attacked by Skulks and Lerks, but by Houdini and David Copperfield. I mean comon!! Comms, you get a notice, do you not? I know you do because I am a comm! She tells you what’s up. A skulk, 4 skulks for that matter, isn’t going to take down 4 t's and a soldier THAT fast. They have no magic scarf to throw over the TF to make it magically disappear. The whole point, the idea, the concept of the turret is simple: THEY CAN'T HAVE IT. Pretty simple isn't it.
Let me ask you this: what would you think if the alien OCs were given an equal boost in deadliness or made half as expensive?
Flattery will get ya nowhere. In the words of Han Solo: "Wow, I must have hit pretty close to the mark to get her all riled up like that, huh kid?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Learn to read and comprehend.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO, i'm doing a pretty good job. Why don't you show me where i missed something. Maybe you mean this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Replying to every point with varying forms of "What? You aren't skilled enough?" gives your posts all the credibility and insight of a 14 year old on a dragon ball Z forum:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You need HMGs and JPs to stop aliens from getting Fades?! Um, your doing something seriously wrong if you can't fight skulks and lerks without the highest tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also known as "What? You aren't skilled enough?"and it is a non-argument. The tech rush, no matter what form it comes in is designed to end the game before the 2nd hive. The highest tech is not designed to fight skulks and lerks, its designed to completely own skulks and lerks, and the gorge, and their hive, ending the game. You don't need to control territory when you have the aliens spending the entire match defending their hive while you tech. Or perhaps "You aren't skilled enough" to offensively pressure the aliens and kill their hive before a second is up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that was a variation of "You don't NEED high-tech to win QUICKLY and DECICIVELY.” You act like you can’t do it unless you have these things, and if you’re such an old hand at this business, then you KNOW that’s not true. My point is that it was already a gamble, and now it’s becoming a bluff that being called. Your out. Done. It’s played. That’s something you pull outta you sphincter like a fake field goal attempt now. If you trying to make it out like all you need is “a few good men” to get the job done, then your full of crizap. Like I pointed out to Darkhound:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You simply can't afford to spend 200 resources to lock down one hive, let alone 400 to take two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't afford not to. You throw those numbers out there with visions of JPers dancing in your head. I'm telling you right now, before you start seeing it widespread: Soon you'll be able to spend 800 RPs and never get a single JPer off the ground. You mark my words. The tech-rush is FUNDIMENTALLY FLAWED. It is easy to counter, and soon it won't be viable at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you don't take two, the resources you spent on the first hive were wasted because the aliens now have Fades and umbra and will shred the last hive with ease. And you say tech rushing is a gamble?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking two hives in early game is a cakewalk compared to peter-panning through fades. Yes, I am that confident that the tech-gamble will be increasingly suicidal. The Achilles heel is in the expense of the Labs/armory and the poor defense. Surely you see how you set yourselves up for failure. On top of that, add not securing hives and it really does become laughable. I really don't care how good your soldiers are. The whole plan is basackwards. I give it this: it certainly was a good idea at first because of it's bold daring, but like Top40 song, it's been way overplayed. And the desperation that I saw guys holding onto it with was really kinda sad. It was just like they wanted to believe so bad that it could work THIS time. I say this, there is one way to make it a sure bet every time: crank up your aimbots, because that’s what the strategy is really designed for – super accurate firing by soldiers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now. THERE is your proper retort. And as for comment about keeping pressure on the hive. Just remember that I’m the one preaching diversity in battle strategy here. On to the next, shall we?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Turret farming both hives is *1* strategy, it is also an old and rather outdated strategy. Back when we were new and relatively inexperienced at the game (like you are now) people used to believe this was the only way for marines to win. Thankfully, people got smarter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, first, if you’re inferring that I am advocating any type of “farming”, then I’ll just have to ask you reread everything because it would be you, and not I, who has not paid proper attention throughout these discussions. I was talking about strategic placement and usage of ALL available tools for MAXIMIZED benefit to one team. Got it now?
Second, if the latter half of the above statement is in any way an attempt to imply that I am in laymen’s terms a “stupid newbie”, then I would simply have the retort that even when you are trying really hard to use as many words as possible, you are still expressing the same very basic concepts. Also, I would personally like to say that if you are including yourself in those “people who got smarter” than “the way I am”, then I certainly disagree. Name calling and derision is uncalled for in any form, got it? Are we clear here?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Calling tech rushes 'a gamble' is missing the point. Every strategy is a gamble. By spending all your res on turrets, phases, turret factories, obs, and neglecting upgrades - you are gambling that your unupgraded marine team can secure both hives before aliens reach a point where they can prevent you from doing so. Either by setting up defenses in the hive, getting lv3 carapace to fight you on an even footing, or simply mauling your main base. If you fail to secure both hives, and defend your main, you are screwed, with nothing to fall back on. Here's a news flash: Competant alien teams will actually try to stop you securing 2 hives BEFORE you have a TF/Phase/Turrets in there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some more than others, and when you are completely polarized, as the strategies that you have put forth so far are, then you open up for defeat. Everytime. Once again, read back, because you’ll see that I have talked about keeping up on your upgrades, just don’t hog wild with them. With your over abundance of skill, lvl2A&A is all you’ll ever need, right? I’m gonna keep saying it until you understand what it means: Shades of gray. Your all or nothing approach is at the root of the issue. I especially like how YOU tell ME about how likely it is for my main base to be attacked when I’m FAR more likely to created a real defense there than you. That’s choice, that’s really rich buddy. News flash! Competent aliens already know that your whole strategy hinges on the health of your armory and your ability to get res, both of which your leaving relatively unguarded.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Offensive pressure, and resource gathering while slowing the alien tech leading onto a JP/HMG rush is not only a very viable strategy, it (or variants of it) form the basis for the majority of successful clan strats. Organised teams whose primary concern is winning the match have progressed from turret farming 2 hives onto resource wars and tech rushes. Does that not tell you something? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It tells me that men are sheep in this world and they lay at my feet for the slaughter. What are you gonna do? Be led or think for yourself?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You seem to have a very poor grasp of time and resource allocation, let me just run down your suggested ideals:
You don't use turrets in the early game, you wait till the 'mid game' when you have '4 res nodes capped' and 100rps. 4 Res nodes, uh-huh. In this same thread you scoffed at a player who suggested holding *3* nodes while teching, assuring him that he was making assumptions about aliens not killing his nodes.... Think much? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While your sitting on your hands waiting for the upgrades and the resources to buy the next round, I’m gaining ground. LOTS of ground. VERY quickly. My strategy looks a lot like a tech-rush in the early game, but where you would push on into the high tech, I use those fast flowing RPs to ALSO gain strategic positions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't build a protolab in the mid game, you instead try to tower 2 hives and the marine base (Note post on defending base with mines and 1 marine) *In the mid game*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Wrong. I secure a hive and res in early game and move directly to hive number 2. You see, we’re both talking about the same thing: beating the aliens to fades (which is kinda sad to me). I’m not gonna let them have the second, no matter what it takes. And I’m going to lock it down. I’m not gonna drag my feet getting in there either. In the meantime, im dividing my res equally among base def and upgrades and hive lock-down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me explain something. There is a reason marine strategies attempt to cram so much into the early game. Its because if you leave aliens to their own devices, there is no mid-game, because you're dead. Midgame means fades, and fades don't stop for turret farms. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You’re the one talking about giving them the whole map to run free on, not me. Your mid-game means fades (because you loose the tech-race), mine does not. Actually, my mid-game consists of turtling aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Locking down a hive with basic marines requires you to have a significant advantage over the alien team who are attempting to stop you taking the hive. They are in a defensive position and you are attacking their controlled area. Pushing them back, then holding them off while you turret up a hive requires you to have a combat advantage. In the early game, you have that combat advantage, because the aliens do not yet have carapace. This is why hive farming is done in the early game, its also why taking the second hive is infinately harder than taking the first. If you wait, and attempt to cap res first, you are allowing the aliens time to get full carapace up. You then want to try and take 2 hives with basic marines against carapaced skulks in a defensive position, who by now have accumulated enough res to even place OCs in hives? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lvl2A&A does just fine for the second hive. You see, I really like “spawn-with” upgrades. That’s what I spend the extra res on. I don’t JUST build turrets. Why do I have to repeat that over and over?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Securing 2 hives was a viable and popular strategy in the previous patch. The key to the strategy was speed. You had to gain a foothold on both hives before the aliens were capable of stopping you. This strategy as with all marine strategies is a race against time, you have to secure both hives before a) Aliens take another hive and get fades thus killing you. or b) Aliens get carapace and enough resources to defend a hive, allowing them to then build it and get fades thus killing you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your explaining the basics of a strategy that I’m using a modified variant of. Do I have to explain why this is ticking me off?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The principles of this strategy are the same as the principles of a tech rush - you don't let them get fades. Towering 2 hives prevents aliens getting a second hive, thus preventing them from getting fades. Rushing with JPs prevents aliens from getting fades by killing their main hive, thus ending the game. Both are a gamble, both are a race against time, and if the aliens get both hives up for enough time to go fade, both are screwed. With this in mind, consider how stupid you sound when you argue against JP tech with comments like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sounds like your JPers are going to get blasted by fades.
Your JPer is very likely going to die because hes going to hit some webbing
i now put MCs EVERYWHERE. I put an MC every 30 feet now. The second your JPer touches a hive, three fades show up to blast him.
I MCed to it, put a acid rocket on him
I killed yesterday with the 1 OC/1 Web combo
you got stomped by Onos <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
....And if the tech rush is being executed properly, the whole point is that they don't get 2 hives. Towers will do no more good against any of the above than JP/HMG's will. Do you assume you can just walk in and tower both hives and thats it? If alien teams were clueless enough to just let you tower 2 hives we'd all be doing it. Both strategies depend on them being pulled off before the aliens have 2 hive tech. Comments to the effect of 'JPs won't help you against fades' are pointless, because the rush is intended to be executed before fades anyway, in much the same way you intend to get into an alien hive and tower it before fades are available. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And my point is that your tech-gamble is doomed to fail. Once again, you assume best case scenario. I covered this twice, just go back to where I quote myself. Simply put, you will loose the tech race, plain and simple. You can’t tech-up fast enough. You could if the aliens didn’t know that’s what your doing, but they all know now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are driven by 2 large missconceptions: Firstly, the idea that marines cannot go into a hive and kill it unless they have also towered up 90% of the map and have HA/HMG/Welders and full upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suffer from no such delusions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, the idea that the only way to prevent fades is to secure hives. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don’t secure it, they will. Quite frankly, I ain’t got time to wait around for upgrades when lvl2A&A is more than enough the secure hive2.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, and i've knifed several ONOS. I'm not about to start a thread about how pointless it is to secure hives or tech up because all you need is a knife.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was an anecdote to illustrate just how hopelessly inured with this strategy some comms have become. You knew that, so don’t waste anymore of my time with drivel such as this.
171 res. Not much of an exaggeration. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Math can be fun! I didn’t say it was much of an exaggeration, now did I?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You assume that you can cap 4 res towers, upgrade weapons and armour at your base and then, after aliens have full cara, expect to be able to move out, occupy both free hives (Which you assume are not already covered in OCs) and then fight off the entire lv3 cara alien team, twice, while you set up a turret farm and phase in both hives and the marine base with your 4 res towers which you assume won't be chomped, and manage all of this before a 2nd hive goes up. All it takes is for you to be pushed out of the second hive, by an alien team who saw your incredibly telegraphed strat a mile off and were ready in defence, and with cara are more than capable of holding you back or skirmishing with you for the time it takes the gorge to get the hive up, and your plan is screwed. You will see fades, and they will eat your turrets, and then you WILL lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m getting very tired, so I will once again direct you to earlier in where I talked about the way my general strategy works. Refer to that in the future instead of just making stuff up.
<b>Sekdar:</b>
I’m happy for him. Personally, I haven’t owned anyone since I have my Philippino sweat-shop slaves executed for tax reasons.
<b>LOTP</b>
I’d agree with that. Good placement is all you need. Apparently some comms are lacking in that area.
<b>KMO</b> has got it down pretty good I would say.
<b>Mustard:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flexibility of command should be the order of the day. Make your judgements based on how your marines are performing against the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spoken like a real comm.
Ok, I think that’s gonna be all for now.
Longest. Post. Ever.
GSH
"And when some doo-doo pump chump points a finger like a stump, tell em "Step off! I'm doin The Hump."
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
the 2 hive lockdown is bad for a variety of reasons. The biggest and foremost reason is:
FLAYRA DOESN'T LIKE IT! Look, flayra envisioned the game as the marines getting one hive, and the aliens getting 2, and fades with umbra battle it out aganst JPers and HA marines. Now I sure hope that 1.1 will make midgame more viable and balanced because right now it is just plain HARD to have a balanced midgame on a map other than say...ns_nothing. Hartman, your strat won't work well I dun think because I believe you will run out of resources and lose that second hive before you can secure it up. Why? With only 4 turrets and a phase gate, PLUS arms lab, level 2 upgrades, and armory, that's resources in the hundred (and of course add any other buildings and expensives like medpacks you might have). Aliens can secure the 2nd hive before you do I definitely believe.
<!--QuoteBegin--|ds|meatshield+Mar 6 2003, 12:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Mar 6 2003, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the 2 hive lockdown is bad for a variety of reasons. The biggest and foremost reason is:
FLAYRA DOESN'T LIKE IT! Look, flayra envisioned the game as the marines getting one hive, and the aliens getting 2, and fades with umbra battle it out aganst JPers and HA marines. Now I sure hope that 1.1 will make midgame more viable and balanced because right now it is just plain HARD to have a balanced midgame on a map other than say...ns_nothing. Hartman, your strat won't work well I dun think because I believe you will run out of resources and lose that second hive before you can secure it up. Why? With only 4 turrets and a phase gate, PLUS arms lab, level 2 upgrades, and armory, that's resources in the hundred (and of course add any other buildings and expensives like medpacks you might have). Aliens can secure the 2nd hive before you do I definitely believe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, when were you appointed Flayra's spokesman ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
2-hive was a broken strat in 1.03, it's fine in 1.04. What has 2-hive lockdown got to do with using TFs anyway ?
heh, you're funny. Its like arguing with a religious fanatic. You've completely avoided the real point of discussion, the defining moment of wether either strategy succeeds or fails, and gone into the argument with the pre-set condition that your hive lockdown has already succeeded, and that the JP attack on the hive has already failed.
You did it before and you are still doing it, your arguments against a tech rush automatically assume that the rush has failed, and that you would have 2 hives locked down with no resistance. You're still producing comments like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your JPer is very likely going to die because hes going to hit some webbing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And i can but laugh at your analysis of the mid-game:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You’re the one talking about giving them the whole map to run free on, not me. Your mid-game means fades (because you loose the tech-race), mine does not. Actually, my mid-game consists of turtling aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The midgame where you again assume that the JP rush has failed to kill the hive, and that the aliens have not prevented you from towering 2 hives.
Both strategies are dependant on the outcome of a particular battle at a particular point in time which determines wether the aliens get their second hive up or not. When securing 2 hives that point in time is the battle with the aliens over the second hive, after we assume you have secured the first one versus un-carapaced aliens, you are now up against a pre-organised carapaced alien def which you have to fight out of the area, secure and tower in order to hold the hive. This is the defining moment in your strat, and wether you succeed or not determines the outcome of the game. But you are completely ignoring this fact, every comment you make already assumes that you succeed. And that you won't be fighting fades because you secured 2 hives.... well, duh, no **** sherlock.
If i assume the JP rush succeeds, then i won't be fighting fades either because the game will already be over and there wont be a mid-game.
Anything that occurs after this point in time, be it towering up the marine base or getting weapons upgrades, is meaningless. Because you've already secured the game.
Shades of grey? You wanna talk about shades of grey? Throughout this thread i've maintained that securing 2 hives is a valid and occasionally workable, although outdated strategy. And you have done nothing but preach how a tech rush "could never work" and "is doomed to fail". Please continue to preach this in the hordes of threads on the kharaa and general forums complaining about how powerful the JP rush is, the thread started by the lead tester to announce that the JP was getting changed to weaken this strategy, and the best organised NS teams in the world who have been winning games with JPs for a significant period of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lvl2A&A does just fine for the second hive. You see, I really like “spawn-with” upgrades. That’s what I spend the extra res on. I don’t JUST build turrets. Why do I have to repeat that over and over? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes of course. You tech up, and tower up hives, and tower up the marine spawn, and drop phases in each hive, and cap res nodes. Thats obviously so much better than just teching up isnt it? Hey you know what would be better than all that? Teching up, and towering the hives, and towering the marine base, and dropping phases in each hive, and towering up res nodes, and researching HA and JPs, and dropping HMGs and GLs, and getting backup turret factories, and hey, why not put a few sieges in those hives as well? After all, more is obviously better.
Except that... Time and resources are limited. You seem to think you can't JP rush before the aliens have fades? That's probably because you don't seem to understand that all the res you spend on securing locations can be diverted elsewhere. Lets do some maths, maths is fun!
395 res for a HMG/JP rush. Now tell me, if you can lockdown 2 hives before fades for 526 res, why is it not possible to perform a tech rush which costs significantly less before the aliens have access to fades? (As a side note, it is possible, i've done it more times than i can count and i'm sure so have most of the people in this thread). So please take your limited pub experience, find yourself an organised team of experienced marine players, and when you've seen the tactic actually performed properly, come back and rethink this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can’t tech-up fast enough <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that is not even in question. JP/HMG appears before the second hive. The only question here is wether you can succeed in killing their primary hive or not, which is exactly the same sort of gamble as succeeding, or failing in securing that second hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you completely missed my points, but thats expected considering when i do play commander, i do it in a very unorthodox way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, I’m obviously an idiot. Please, tell me your point in one sentence with as few syllables as possible, so that even I can grasp it. Thank you for your co-operation <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wow. you took that the completely wrong way. my post wasn't a flame :|
you missed my point because i play differently and didn't explain how, i didn't insult your intelligence *at all*
Whenever I command (which I do so A LOT and win A LOT,) I "tek" and upgrade armor weapons MT armor armory weapons protolab jetpack armor weapons... in about that order after an innitial IP armory obs armslab. meanwhile i push to a hive and settle in it, making a nice farm there to make sure its good and mine... after the vigorus upgrades (all this time not dropping any weapons or even health and ammo beyond a welder or 2 for vents. (this pisses impatient rambos off)) I drop jetpacks like madd and if you are a lucky marine you may get an HMG...
All this while we are securing all the res we can, left and right, but I still don't turretfarm anything other than hive and otherwise VERY important locations. In most cases there isn't a TF anywhere near my original base...
My current commanding win ratio is 15:2 and the precent of happy marines that had fun under my glorius command is 98% (theres always ONE upset rambo.)
NOTE: I haven't dropped a GL scince early server patch 1.02... same for mines and shotguns.
Er I stopped reading after the first page or so but suffice to say
that some of the arguments presented by the pro turrets people are quite hypocritical and silly.
e.g. "If your tech push fails, and your super marines die by the hordes, and the comm spams the toys until res gone and game over"
WELL?! What about turret farming that fails, that takes too long and the aliens come in force and rollback the *ENTIRE* map (this happened on bast heh) Granted there is more room for error on the marines' part (but NOT on the comm part, if comm decides to turret every single node = instant gg), but if marines suck then they suck, and unless aliens stupid the turret way will not win either.
Course if marines stupid tech rush will not work either but teching is much more fun.
Also those "tricks" are QUITE viable and should be taught. That kind of thinking is the basis for all advanced tactics. e.g. I am considering having fast 2 hive phase mine and then have 1 marine at each phase to defend. The rest all choose a buddy (or not) and rambo off until I need them somewhere. Meanwhile the few people posted at phases can build for me, and the rambos can intercept skulks / hunt gorges / knife res towers / build me res towers / build me phases etc
The key is that they pay attention to when and what is needed, and that I and they provide intelligence for each other.
This is yet difficult to pull of on pubby but so are those hmg pick up tactics; however this kind of thinking will confer a *huge* advantage to the team.
Turret farming is too cautious and the outcome is very uncertain. If you tech rush at least you can look forward to the pleasure of battling of wits with the aliens, or else totally kick their @ss. If you suck you can lose rather quickly and with toys rather than a long slow farm game where the aliens then proceed to blow everything up.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
It all boils down to this: Can you win more with turret farming or tech rushing assuming both sides are organized, and skilled. Clans have tried...and dismissed turret farming, bcause it doesn't work AS well as tech rushing in clan games!
The problem is that none of you are compromising on the turret strat. You can't simply dismiss the value of turrets, nor can you dismiss tech rushing. realistically Commanders probably tech rush for the early game so that their marines can be well off for the mid-game. You use your turrets during the mid-game you can utilize all your marines for hive pushes and res gathering. The turrets are simply there as a first line of defense and are strategically smart for that only. If you think they are the end all your wrong. However if you think turrets blow and are worthless then you're making it harder than it needs to be to protect your bases. Really people, a synthesis of the two theories is probably the most effective.
Further I think a rush is pretty important, but a res rush, i wonder why there aren't any posts up recently about res rushing. now that could use some thinking on.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Part of the JP/HMG rush IS the res rush. You rush to get as much res as possible while spending as little rws as possible. Then you rech up and win. After aliens get 2nd hive no res rush is possible.
Comments
In nearly every game I played the marines built some turrets in 1-2 hives and it's really hard to destroy them if they are placed properly.
Turrets cannot be meant to be mid-game stuff because Fades destroy them way to easy. So they must be early game stuff. Or are they meant to be useless? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Turrets are just another way of slowing aliens down from taking your stuff. Use them in conjunction with the basic strategy of keeping them too busy to want to waste time killing turrets.
I still think turrents can be used properly. But after the thread teoh just droped... im gona shut my mouth befor i feel the wrath of the arrogance. SO MANY HATEFUL PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM
SHOW SOME <span style='color:red'> Love <3 </span>
If you play on a pub server, where every marine is a rambo screaming for jet packs and HMG's then you might as well go down that track or be ejected.
If you play on a reasonably organised server, in which people have assigned roles/tasks, then you can try numerous strategies.
ie. jet pack rush, two hive lockdown, one hive lockdown (quickly capturing res) and go HA and/or JP's, or as has happened on quite a number of occasions, recycle the whole base, give everyone a shotty and take out the alien hive. Taking hives with only a phase gate and some mine packs and then continually attacking the next adjacent hive. It all depends on how the game progresses. If the comm has voice comm and confidence of his team, then the strategies tend to evolve as the game progresses.
The options on organised servers with all regular players are much greater than a pub server with no admins filled with rambos.
When you fire up your game browser and pick a server, you make your decision then as to what type of game you will be playing. Personally I like playing with players I know and can trust to follow a plan. I have visited other servers for the novelty of seeing how the other side lives. I pity you. LOL! Your really missing out on the depth of strategies that this game can offer. I won't say our server is perfect, but it beats most pub servers hands down. It really comes down to the quality of players on the server and how they are distributed after everyone selects a team. On our server, the regulars mostly go random, and the new players mostly go marine. This tends to make the aliens win a lot as the random choosers end up on aliens. When we have all regs on marines and one of our good comms in the chair, it can be pretty hard for the aliens to win, but we pull it off sometimes.
In summary, strategies and flexibility in strategies is dependant on the server you are playing on, and the quality of the players on at the time. Servers with no admins are a waste of time. Any game can be disrupted by a single lamer joining the server and there seems to be no shortage of lamers. Choose your servers wisely. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Any turret farm is pointless untill the aliens have level 3 cara, and when they do boy do you want alot of turrets/ammo uppys. A decent cara3 skulk rush can take out PG 4 turrets and tfac with ease in 10.4.
and yea TeoH speaketh thee truth.
You wouldn't happen to have stairs in your house, would you?
If it pleases you to build turrets do so, if it displeases you don't.
On pubs there is no hard and fast rules for success. I've seen a commander win by locking down the hives with tfac/turrets then sent the team around to protect <i>every</i> node with tfac/turrets. Might not have been the most efficient or even the smartest strategy but hey, the marines had fun, the aliens had fun, and the comm had fun.
It's all good.
Painful? Instagib is a better way to describe it. In a recent game, I researched level 3 weapons just as our second hive was going down. Seeing as the game was over I just built like constant turrets. Killed all the fades and even got about 4 Onos. I handed out tons of welders so don't even bother saying the turrets would eventually degrade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you completely missed my points, but thats expected considering when i do play commander, i do it in a very unorthodox way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, I’m obviously an idiot. Please, tell me your point in one sentence with as few syllables as possible, so that even I can grasp it. Thank you for your co-operation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i only comm when I know I have reliable people around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I ever play are random public servers, and you know what, I find a pretty good class of players there. People rise or fall to the level of your expectations.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i sequentially grab every single node i can get a hold of and get jetpacks asap. i let aliens build hives whatever they want, but since my marines are everywhere all the time, the hive gets mowed down as soon as it is placed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grabbing res, i like that. Getting JP asap, i like that too! The rest sucks though. Your giving up the map, your men are off ramboing, and you think that hives just go poof! Get real man, and stop looking for a gimmick. Why do people always have to have a gimmick?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i am NOT into the marine mentality of "grab a few nodes, lockdown two hives, then sit around and do nothing for rest of game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither am I. If you can cap two hives with the stuff you've got, then there's no reason why you can't finish the game. See, once again, your thinking about your toys. Your thinking about sitting around while you tech up, which of course, you don't need to do. Just finish the game. That's the whole reason tech rush is popular right now, because of the "fun factor", which I agree, it IS pretty fun even when you lose because you still get to use the tech stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yep. A turret thats not shooting is wasted resources in my opinion. And i make sure to get jetpacks before they get fades, to prevent fades from ever showing up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the immortal words of the Smash-TV announcer: "GOOOOD LUCK! YOOOU'LL NEED IT!" Even in the games in which the tech-rush worked, it was still a tie between the JPs and the fades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what does this have to do with the turret discussion?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said mobility is the name of the game. I agree. I use the ultimate in mobility: The Phase Gate. You simply can't beat INSTANT access to a location.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if three or four JPers can get wherever they need to be, kill the aliens, and move on, i'd say that it is a very DYNAMIC way of controlling ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if they have a safe place to land or hover. Something we're going to see more of is less WOLs and more of a spread of OCs, giving soldiers no place to loiter. I've already begun doing this with an exceptionally high success rate, especially against JPers because it only takes one web to bring em down, and then they always land in between two OCs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've yet to see this happen. One marine who can aim, coupled with a bit of distance between him and the entrances is all you need.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gun only shoots in one direction at a time, and you gotta reload sometime. My base guard gets help; you leave yours out to die. Way to comm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see the problem here as being in the equipment so much as it is the players.... JP/HMG rushes work more often than not when the marine players are competant. If the tech rush fails, well then you are SUPPOSED to lose. But if the commander was going for a long game from the start, then i can see that as the only justification for dropping turrets... but only in hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again: People rise or fall to the level of your expectations.
My timetable for a round is about 15 minutes. Now, maybe a 15-minute round is a long game to you, but that's a matter of perspective i guess. I guess getting it done in 11 with a tech-gamble is more uber in you opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not unless you kill them first, which is the whole purpose of the tech rush. Simply put, if the aliens are still alive when they get fades, it is no longer considered a tech RUSH, and it is considered a failure<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's the trick now isn't it?
<b>DarkHound:</b>
I love it when people prove my point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was assuming, of course, that the turret farm in question was at a hive. Adding phase gates to the cost only makes my argument better. Also, ad hominem attacks aren't arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember what i was saying about all Black vs. White? That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. When have I advocated "farming"? I'm talking about the minimum it takes to hold the fort. Four turrets does not make a farm. I hate it when people ignore what i've said and inject their own expectations of what they want me to be saying.
And NO, the phase gate does NOT make your argument better because with the phase system in operation the same four turrets will last the length of the round. You count the base as a total lost of RPs, but that is because you assume that it won't get kept up. Why would you assume that? . If you call on a person to be a maintenance man, alot of times they're happy to do it. Oh, throw in the price of 4 welders too (4 assumes loss due to attacks).
The base allows your team to keep advancing. All they do is build the phase. Your maintenance man pops thru. They guard the MM while he builds the TF. They bail while he locks down the hive. Upgrades are a major part of the strategy, but so are TFs and PGs. A mix. A well rounded approach to the task at hand is NOT A GAMBLE. Go to Vegas if you wanna gamble. I like to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Securing one hive is as useless as securing none at all. Maybe worse, since it makes the resource nozzle there more of a target.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, you must secure TWO hives. Two hives, eight minutes or less. You can't make anything in a hive MORE of a target. It's already the highest priority target there is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Marine victory conditions do not include "secure a hive with masses of turrets" -- you only need to kill them to win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The conditions to win are to eliminate all three hives. Preventing re-growth is essential. I do not leave that to chance and I don't need "masses of turrets" to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, doing so is counterproductive because A) It costs far, far too much and B) It doesn't work anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, it always cheeses me off when someone states their OPINION as a fact. The above quote is an opinion. IN FACT, it is an opinion based on "Turret Farming", which I am NOT talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You simply can't afford to spend 200 resources to lock down one hive, let alone 400 to take two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't afford not to. You throw those numbers out there with visions of JPers dancing in your head. I'm telling you right now, before you start seeing it widespread: Soon you'll be able to spend 800 RPs and never get a single JPer off the ground. You mark my words. The tech-rush is FUNDIMENTALLY FLAWED. It is easy to counter, and soon it won't be viable at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you don't take two, the resources you spent on the first hive were wasted because the aliens now have Fades and umbra and will shred the last hive with ease. And you say tech rushing is a gamble?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking two hives in early game is a cakewalk compared to peter-panning through fades. Yes, I am that confident that the tech-gamble will be increasingly suicidal. The Achilles heel is in the expense of the Labs/armory and the poor defense. Surely you see how you set yourselves up for failure. On top of that, add not securing hives and it really does become laughable. I really don't care how good your soldiers are. The whole plan is basackwards. I give it this: it certainly was a good idea at first because of it's bold daring, but like Top40 song, it's been way overplayed. And the desperation that I saw guys holding onto it with was really kinda sad. It was just like they wanted to believe so bad that it could work THIS time. I say this, there is one way to make it a sure bet every time: crank up your aimbots, because that’s what the strategy is really designed for – super accurate firing by soldiers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every marine strategy is constantly beaten. Marines have somewhere around a 25% win percentage on pubs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That comes from a lack a variation from round to round. You have guys trying the exact same thing over and over and you'll get that. Even the best of comms will get beaten if they get in a rut, but then, the best comms don't get in a ruts, do they?. It's just like Tekken. The same combo over and over will get you beat down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all honesty, most of my tech rushes fail. There are several reasons for this, but mostly they involve marines not being able to kill skulks and res nozzles constantly being eaten ( by single skulks while being built by 5 marines). On the other hand, every single time I turret farm, either one skulk takes out the whole thing, or the fades and lerks come in and wreck it in 30 seconds. It just doesn't work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black or White. Try shades of gray next time.
<b>Ash:</b>
It's refreshing to see a friendly face <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thanks for the backup man. I really do appreciate it.
Alot of people wouldn't even stick their neck out.
<b>Pvt. Lohne:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Turrets, as they stand, just arn't desinged to WORK. Poorly agisnt newbies, near worthless aginst an avreage player, and anyone with any serius experince considers turrets an interesting side item, certianly they don't attach the fear one reserves for an hmg or gl to those things. and yet for all that worthlessnes, they're all still so expensive. Cut their price in half......or make them deadly, but otherwise, until then, no, people dont use something if you don't get your moneys worth from it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you really understand what the turrets are designed to do. They keep the aliens moving. That’s ALL they've gotta do. I'm not talking about in a "general sense" of the words, I mean literally. You can't stand still around turrets. You can't just walk in and setup if there's an enemy base their. That’s the whole point. You MUST attack it. Right? If you wanna be there, your gonna have to kill that stuff, right? You people act like your not being attacked by Skulks and Lerks, but by Houdini and David Copperfield. I mean comon!! Comms, you get a notice, do you not? I know you do because I am a comm! She tells you what’s up. A skulk, 4 skulks for that matter, isn’t going to take down 4 t's and a soldier THAT fast. They have no magic scarf to throw over the TF to make it magically disappear. The whole point, the idea, the concept of the turret is simple: THEY CAN'T HAVE IT. Pretty simple isn't it.
Let me ask you this: what would you think if the alien OCs were given an equal boost in deadliness or made half as expensive?
<b>Stoneburg:</b>
Right on man. I'm there.
<b>Teoh:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You clueless newbie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flattery will get ya nowhere.
In the words of Han Solo: "Wow, I must have hit pretty close to the mark to get her all riled up like that, huh kid?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Learn to read and comprehend.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO, i'm doing a pretty good job. Why don't you show me where i missed something. Maybe you mean this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Replying to every point with varying forms of "What? You aren't skilled enough?" gives your posts all the credibility and insight of a 14 year old on a dragon ball Z forum:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You need HMGs and JPs to stop aliens from getting Fades?! Um, your doing something seriously wrong if you can't fight skulks and lerks without the highest tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also known as "What? You aren't skilled enough?"and it is a non-argument. The tech rush, no matter what form it comes in is designed to end the game before the 2nd hive. The highest tech is not designed to fight skulks and lerks, its designed to completely own skulks and lerks, and the gorge, and their hive, ending the game. You don't need to control territory when you have the aliens spending the entire match defending their hive while you tech. Or perhaps "You aren't skilled enough" to offensively pressure the aliens and kill their hive before a second is up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that was a variation of "You don't NEED high-tech to win QUICKLY and DECICIVELY.” You act like you can’t do it unless you have these things, and if you’re such an old hand at this business, then you KNOW that’s not true. My point is that it was already a gamble, and now it’s becoming a bluff that being called. Your out. Done. It’s played. That’s something you pull outta you sphincter like a fake field goal attempt now. If you trying to make it out like all you need is “a few good men” to get the job done, then your full of crizap. Like I pointed out to Darkhound:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You simply can't afford to spend 200 resources to lock down one hive, let alone 400 to take two. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't afford not to. You throw those numbers out there with visions of JPers dancing in your head. I'm telling you right now, before you start seeing it widespread: Soon you'll be able to spend 800 RPs and never get a single JPer off the ground. You mark my words. The tech-rush is FUNDIMENTALLY FLAWED. It is easy to counter, and soon it won't be viable at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you don't take two, the resources you spent on the first hive were wasted because the aliens now have Fades and umbra and will shred the last hive with ease. And you say tech rushing is a gamble?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking two hives in early game is a cakewalk compared to peter-panning through fades. Yes, I am that confident that the tech-gamble will be increasingly suicidal. The Achilles heel is in the expense of the Labs/armory and the poor defense. Surely you see how you set yourselves up for failure. On top of that, add not securing hives and it really does become laughable. I really don't care how good your soldiers are. The whole plan is basackwards. I give it this: it certainly was a good idea at first because of it's bold daring, but like Top40 song, it's been way overplayed. And the desperation that I saw guys holding onto it with was really kinda sad. It was just like they wanted to believe so bad that it could work THIS time. I say this, there is one way to make it a sure bet every time: crank up your aimbots, because that’s what the strategy is really designed for – super accurate firing by soldiers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now. THERE is your proper retort. And as for comment about keeping pressure on the hive. Just remember that I’m the one preaching diversity in battle strategy here. On to the next, shall we?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Turret farming both hives is *1* strategy, it is also an old and rather outdated strategy. Back when we were new and relatively inexperienced at the game (like you are now) people used to believe this was the only way for marines to win. Thankfully, people got smarter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, first, if you’re inferring that I am advocating any type of “farming”, then I’ll just have to ask you reread everything because it would be you, and not I, who has not paid proper attention throughout these discussions. I was talking about strategic placement and usage of ALL available tools for MAXIMIZED benefit to one team. Got it now?
Second, if the latter half of the above statement is in any way an attempt to imply that I am in laymen’s terms a “stupid newbie”, then I would simply have the retort that even when you are trying really hard to use as many words as possible, you are still expressing the same very basic concepts. Also, I would personally like to say that if you are including yourself in those “people who got smarter” than “the way I am”, then I certainly disagree. Name calling and derision is uncalled for in any form, got it? Are we clear here?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Calling tech rushes 'a gamble' is missing the point. Every strategy is a gamble. By spending all your res on turrets, phases, turret factories, obs, and neglecting upgrades - you are gambling that your unupgraded marine team can secure both hives before aliens reach a point where they can prevent you from doing so. Either by setting up defenses in the hive, getting lv3 carapace to fight you on an even footing, or simply mauling your main base. If you fail to secure both hives, and defend your main, you are screwed, with nothing to fall back on. Here's a news flash: Competant alien teams will actually try to stop you securing 2 hives BEFORE you have a TF/Phase/Turrets in there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some more than others, and when you are completely polarized, as the strategies that you have put forth so far are, then you open up for defeat. Everytime. Once again, read back, because you’ll see that I have talked about keeping up on your upgrades, just don’t hog wild with them. With your over abundance of skill, lvl2A&A is all you’ll ever need, right? I’m gonna keep saying it until you understand what it means: Shades of gray. Your all or nothing approach is at the root of the issue. I especially like how YOU tell ME about how likely it is for my main base to be attacked when I’m FAR more likely to created a real defense there than you. That’s choice, that’s really rich buddy. News flash! Competent aliens already know that your whole strategy hinges on the health of your armory and your ability to get res, both of which your leaving relatively unguarded.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Offensive pressure, and resource gathering while slowing the alien tech leading onto a JP/HMG rush is not only a very viable strategy, it (or variants of it) form the basis for the majority of successful clan strats. Organised teams whose primary concern is winning the match have progressed from turret farming 2 hives onto resource wars and tech rushes. Does that not tell you something? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It tells me that men are sheep in this world and they lay at my feet for the slaughter. What are you gonna do? Be led or think for yourself?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You seem to have a very poor grasp of time and resource allocation, let me just run down your suggested ideals:
You don't use turrets in the early game, you wait till the 'mid game' when you have '4 res nodes capped' and 100rps. 4 Res nodes, uh-huh. In this same thread you scoffed at a player who suggested holding *3* nodes while teching, assuring him that he was making assumptions about aliens not killing his nodes.... Think much? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While your sitting on your hands waiting for the upgrades and the resources to buy the next round, I’m gaining ground. LOTS of ground. VERY quickly. My strategy looks a lot like a tech-rush in the early game, but where you would push on into the high tech, I use those fast flowing RPs to ALSO gain strategic positions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You don't build a protolab in the mid game, you instead try to tower 2 hives and the marine base (Note post on defending base with mines and 1 marine) *In the mid game*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Wrong. I secure a hive and res in early game and move directly to hive number 2. You see, we’re both talking about the same thing: beating the aliens to fades (which is kinda sad to me). I’m not gonna let them have the second, no matter what it takes. And I’m going to lock it down. I’m not gonna drag my feet getting in there either. In the meantime, im dividing my res equally among base def and upgrades and hive lock-down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me explain something. There is a reason marine strategies attempt to cram so much into the early game. Its because if you leave aliens to their own devices, there is no mid-game, because you're dead. Midgame means fades, and fades don't stop for turret farms. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You’re the one talking about giving them the whole map to run free on, not me. Your mid-game means fades (because you loose the tech-race), mine does not. Actually, my mid-game consists of turtling aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Locking down a hive with basic marines requires you to have a significant advantage over the alien team who are attempting to stop you taking the hive. They are in a defensive position and you are attacking their controlled area. Pushing them back, then holding them off while you turret up a hive requires you to have a combat advantage. In the early game, you have that combat advantage, because the aliens do not yet have carapace. This is why hive farming is done in the early game, its also why taking the second hive is infinately harder than taking the first. If you wait, and attempt to cap res first, you are allowing the aliens time to get full carapace up. You then want to try and take 2 hives with basic marines against carapaced skulks in a defensive position, who by now have accumulated enough res to even place OCs in hives? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lvl2A&A does just fine for the second hive. You see, I really like “spawn-with” upgrades. That’s what I spend the extra res on. I don’t JUST build turrets. Why do I have to repeat that over and over?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Securing 2 hives was a viable and popular strategy in the previous patch. The key to the strategy was speed. You had to gain a foothold on both hives before the aliens were capable of stopping you. This strategy as with all marine strategies is a race against time, you have to secure both hives before a) Aliens take another hive and get fades thus killing you. or b) Aliens get carapace and enough resources to defend a hive, allowing them to then build it and get fades thus killing you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your explaining the basics of a strategy that I’m using a modified variant of. Do I have to explain why this is ticking me off?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The principles of this strategy are the same as the principles of a tech rush - you don't let them get fades. Towering 2 hives prevents aliens getting a second hive, thus preventing them from getting fades. Rushing with JPs prevents aliens from getting fades by killing their main hive, thus ending the game. Both are a gamble, both are a race against time, and if the aliens get both hives up for enough time to go fade, both are screwed. With this in mind, consider how stupid you sound when you argue against JP tech with comments like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sounds like your JPers are going to get blasted by fades.
Your JPer is very likely going to die because hes going to hit some webbing
i now put MCs EVERYWHERE. I put an MC every 30 feet now. The second your JPer touches a hive, three fades show up to blast him.
I MCed to it, put a acid rocket on him
I killed yesterday with the 1 OC/1 Web combo
you got stomped by Onos
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
....And if the tech rush is being executed properly, the whole point is that they don't get 2 hives. Towers will do no more good against any of the above than JP/HMG's will. Do you assume you can just walk in and tower both hives and thats it? If alien teams were clueless enough to just let you tower 2 hives we'd all be doing it. Both strategies depend on them being pulled off before the aliens have 2 hive tech. Comments to the effect of 'JPs won't help you against fades' are pointless, because the rush is intended to be executed before fades anyway, in much the same way you intend to get into an alien hive and tower it before fades are available. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And my point is that your tech-gamble is doomed to fail. Once again, you assume best case scenario. I covered this twice, just go back to where I quote myself. Simply put, you will loose the tech race, plain and simple. You can’t tech-up fast enough. You could if the aliens didn’t know that’s what your doing, but they all know now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are driven by 2 large missconceptions: Firstly, the idea that marines cannot go into a hive and kill it unless they have also towered up 90% of the map and have HA/HMG/Welders and full upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suffer from no such delusions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, the idea that the only way to prevent fades is to secure hives. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don’t secure it, they will. Quite frankly, I ain’t got time to wait around for upgrades when lvl2A&A is more than enough the secure hive2.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, and i've knifed several ONOS. I'm not about to start a thread about how pointless it is to secure hives or tech up because all you need is a knife.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was an anecdote to illustrate just how hopelessly inured with this strategy some comms have become. You knew that, so don’t waste anymore of my time with drivel such as this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Obs - 25
TF - 20
4 Turrets - 76
2 Phases - 50
171 res. Not much of an exaggeration.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Math can be fun! I didn’t say it was much of an exaggeration, now did I?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You assume that you can cap 4 res towers, upgrade weapons and armour at your base and then, after aliens have full cara, expect to be able to move out, occupy both free hives (Which you assume are not already covered in OCs) and then fight off the entire lv3 cara alien team, twice, while you set up a turret farm and phase in both hives and the marine base with your 4 res towers which you assume won't be chomped, and manage all of this before a 2nd hive goes up. All it takes is for you to be pushed out of the second hive, by an alien team who saw your incredibly telegraphed strat a mile off and were ready in defence, and with cara are more than capable of holding you back or skirmishing with you for the time it takes the gorge to get the hive up, and your plan is screwed. You will see fades, and they will eat your turrets, and then you WILL lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m getting very tired, so I will once again direct you to earlier in where I talked about the way my general strategy works. Refer to that in the future instead of just making stuff up.
<b>Sekdar:</b>
I’m happy for him. Personally, I haven’t owned anyone since I have my Philippino sweat-shop slaves executed for tax reasons.
<b>LOTP</b>
I’d agree with that. Good placement is all you need. Apparently some comms are lacking in that area.
<b>KMO</b> has got it down pretty good I would say.
<b>Mustard:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flexibility of command should be the order of the day. Make your judgements based on how your marines are performing against the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spoken like a real comm.
Ok, I think that’s gonna be all for now.
Longest. Post. Ever.
GSH
"And when some doo-doo pump chump points a finger like a stump, tell em "Step off! I'm doin The Hump."
FLAYRA DOESN'T LIKE IT!
Look, flayra envisioned the game as the marines getting one hive, and the aliens getting 2, and fades with umbra battle it out aganst JPers and HA marines. Now I sure hope that 1.1 will make midgame more viable and balanced because right now it is just plain HARD to have a balanced midgame on a map other than say...ns_nothing. Hartman, your strat won't work well I dun think because I believe you will run out of resources and lose that second hive before you can secure it up. Why? With only 4 turrets and a phase gate, PLUS arms lab, level 2 upgrades, and armory, that's resources in the hundred (and of course add any other buildings and expensives like medpacks you might have). Aliens can secure the 2nd hive before you do I definitely believe.
My favored strat is very simmilar to it and usually works.
FLAYRA DOESN'T LIKE IT!
Look, flayra envisioned the game as the marines getting one hive, and the aliens getting 2, and fades with umbra battle it out aganst JPers and HA marines. Now I sure hope that 1.1 will make midgame more viable and balanced because right now it is just plain HARD to have a balanced midgame on a map other than say...ns_nothing. Hartman, your strat won't work well I dun think because I believe you will run out of resources and lose that second hive before you can secure it up. Why? With only 4 turrets and a phase gate, PLUS arms lab, level 2 upgrades, and armory, that's resources in the hundred (and of course add any other buildings and expensives like medpacks you might have). Aliens can secure the 2nd hive before you do I definitely believe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, when were you appointed Flayra's spokesman ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
2-hive was a broken strat in 1.03, it's fine in 1.04. What has 2-hive lockdown got to do with using TFs anyway ?
You did it before and you are still doing it, your arguments against a tech rush automatically assume that the rush has failed, and that you would have 2 hives locked down with no resistance. You're still producing comments like this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Your JPer is very likely going to die because hes going to hit some webbing
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And i can but laugh at your analysis of the mid-game:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You’re the one talking about giving them the whole map to run free on, not me. Your mid-game means fades (because you loose the tech-race), mine does not. Actually, my mid-game consists of turtling aliens.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The midgame where you again assume that the JP rush has failed to kill the hive, and that the aliens have not prevented you from towering 2 hives.
Both strategies are dependant on the outcome of a particular battle at a particular point in time which determines wether the aliens get their second hive up or not. When securing 2 hives that point in time is the battle with the aliens over the second hive, after we assume you have secured the first one versus un-carapaced aliens, you are now up against a pre-organised carapaced alien def which you have to fight out of the area, secure and tower in order to hold the hive. This is the defining moment in your strat, and wether you succeed or not determines the outcome of the game. But you are completely ignoring this fact, every comment you make already assumes that you succeed. And that you won't be fighting fades because you secured 2 hives.... well, duh, no **** sherlock.
If i assume the JP rush succeeds, then i won't be fighting fades either because the game will already be over and there wont be a mid-game.
Anything that occurs after this point in time, be it towering up the marine base or getting weapons upgrades, is meaningless. Because you've already secured the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Shades of gray
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shades of grey? You wanna talk about shades of grey? Throughout this thread i've maintained that securing 2 hives is a valid and occasionally workable, although outdated strategy. And you have done nothing but preach how a tech rush "could never work" and "is doomed to fail". Please continue to preach this in the hordes of threads on the kharaa and general forums complaining about how powerful the JP rush is, the thread started by the lead tester to announce that the JP was getting changed to weaken this strategy, and the best organised NS teams in the world who have been winning games with JPs for a significant period of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Lvl2A&A does just fine for the second hive. You see, I really like “spawn-with” upgrades. That’s what I spend the extra res on. I don’t JUST build turrets. Why do I have to repeat that over and over?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes of course. You tech up, and tower up hives, and tower up the marine spawn, and drop phases in each hive, and cap res nodes. Thats obviously so much better than just teching up isnt it? Hey you know what would be better than all that? Teching up, and towering the hives, and towering the marine base, and dropping phases in each hive, and towering up res nodes, and researching HA and JPs, and dropping HMGs and GLs, and getting backup turret factories, and hey, why not put a few sieges in those hives as well? After all, more is obviously better.
Except that... Time and resources are limited. You seem to think you can't JP rush before the aliens have fades? That's probably because you don't seem to understand that all the res you spend on securing locations can be diverted elsewhere. Lets do some maths, maths is fun!
2x IPs - 44
Armoury - 25
Obs - 25
Arms lab - 45
TF x 2 - 40
Turrets x 8 - 152
Phase x 3 - 75
lv2 Weap/Armour - 120
526 res. This is the cost of what you have stated you build in order to secure 2 hives, minus the cost of any base defence or mines.
2x IPs - 44
Armoury - 25
Arms lab - 45
Proto lab - 45
JP research - 25
Armory upgrade - 35
lv1 armour - 20
2x mines - 16
4x HMG/JP combo - 140
395 res for a HMG/JP rush. Now tell me, if you can lockdown 2 hives before fades for 526 res, why is it not possible to perform a tech rush which costs significantly less before the aliens have access to fades? (As a side note, it is possible, i've done it more times than i can count and i'm sure so have most of the people in this thread). So please take your limited pub experience, find yourself an organised team of experienced marine players, and when you've seen the tactic actually performed properly, come back and rethink this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You can’t tech-up fast enough
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that is not even in question. JP/HMG appears before the second hive. The only question here is wether you can succeed in killing their primary hive or not, which is exactly the same sort of gamble as succeeding, or failing in securing that second hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you completely missed my points, but thats expected considering when i do play commander, i do it in a very unorthodox way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, I’m obviously an idiot. Please, tell me your point in one sentence with as few syllables as possible, so that even I can grasp it. Thank you for your co-operation <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow. you took that the completely wrong way. my post wasn't a flame :|
you missed my point because i play differently and didn't explain how, i didn't insult your intelligence *at all*
All this while we are securing all the res we can, left and right, but I still don't turretfarm anything other than hive and otherwise VERY important locations. In most cases there isn't a TF anywhere near my original base...
My current commanding win ratio is 15:2 and the precent of happy marines that had fun under my glorius command is 98% (theres always ONE upset rambo.)
NOTE: I haven't dropped a GL scince early server patch 1.02... same for mines and shotguns.
that some of the arguments presented by the pro turrets people are quite hypocritical and silly.
e.g.
"If your tech push fails, and your super marines die by the hordes, and the comm spams the toys until res gone and game over"
WELL?! What about turret farming that fails, that takes too long and the aliens come in force and rollback the *ENTIRE* map (this happened on bast heh) Granted there is more room for error on the marines' part (but NOT on the comm part, if comm decides to turret every single node = instant gg), but if marines suck then they suck, and unless aliens stupid the turret way will not win either.
Course if marines stupid tech rush will not work either but teching is much more fun.
Also those "tricks" are QUITE viable and should be taught. That kind of thinking is the basis for all advanced tactics. e.g. I am considering having fast 2 hive phase mine and then have 1 marine at each phase to defend. The rest all choose a buddy (or not) and rambo off until I need them somewhere. Meanwhile the few people posted at phases can build for me, and the rambos can intercept skulks / hunt gorges / knife res towers / build me res towers / build me phases etc
The key is that they pay attention to when and what is needed, and that I and they provide intelligence for each other.
This is yet difficult to pull of on pubby but so are those hmg pick up tactics; however this kind of thinking will confer a *huge* advantage to the team.
Turret farming is too cautious and the outcome is very uncertain. If you tech rush at least you can look forward to the pleasure of battling of wits with the aliens, or else totally kick their @ss. If you suck you can lose rather quickly and with toys rather than a long slow farm game where the aliens then proceed to blow everything up.
Further I think a rush is pretty important, but a res rush, i wonder why there aren't any posts up recently about res rushing. now that could use some thinking on.