<!--QuoteBegin--Duff-Man+Mar 1 2003, 11:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Mar 1 2003, 11:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All that writing and you've not convinced me that NS gets boring. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IT only gets boring for me when surge is the comm <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
These were just my ideas; if you guys can come up with any more useful and more functional ones then please do so.
The point that CNC and NS being totally different RTS's isn't completely valid, IMHO. Though the teams are "completely different," similarities can always be drawn. Otherwise, this wouldn't be much of an RTS would it? For example:
Base defenses: Marines: Turrets + Mines Aliens: Offensive towers
As you can see, despite being "completely different," each team has different units that cover similar purposes. Siege units > buildings, anti-siege units > siege units, standard grunts > anti-siege units, assault > standard grunts, etc.
My problem is that until the mid-game, things remain standard grunt vs standard grunt. Play any other RTS, and you'll find that there are generally 3 pre-tech basic units that can fight each other in a Rock/Paper/Scissors fashion. In WC3, for example, each side has a basic melee unit, a basic ranged unit, and a basic magic unit. In Generals, you have infantry, aircraft, anti-aircraft/anti-infantry, small tank. The mid-game brings more unit types into the mix - air, siege, and "tank" units in WC3; siege units, assault units, and superweapons in Generals.
As I think I've said like 3 or so times before, I think the mid-game in NS is fine. I <b>do not think the mid-game or late-game is boring</b>. Please take some time to let that sink in. Kthx. The only thing I do find boring is the infinite grunt vs grunt gameplay of the early game, which consitutes quite a large portion of the average NS player's gameplay. I made a few, albeit flawed, suggestions that I think might help. I reitterate, if you can come up with better ones, by all means post them. That's why I made the thread after all.
I dont see how the things you listed are similar. They arn't. If want to put Fade and Lerks as seige - are you trying to say they are similar to a seige turret and a GL? The things you are trying to say are similar just serve a general function - they arn't similar in the ways they go about that function, so once again we are back to someone not being able to compare a game thats 100% RTS with a slight mix of RTS into an FPS. In WC3 and other things you do have grunts, and archers, etc early game - but how could you try to get that into NS? The marines shoot bullets, the aliens bite. Since, early game, the aliens are good upclose and the marines are good at a distance, I doubt anyone would want to put themselfs in a role that would disadvantage them (ie - it sounds like you want a "classes" to be made that would do the opposite of what the current "grunts" do now -- who would want to be that class?) You're ideas about the early game of NS being boring *compred to ohter RTSs* dont really apply at all to NS and I find it very hard to try to agure them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->otherwise this wouldn't be much of an RTS would it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its only an RTS for one person, for everyone else its an FPS.
First of all, let me just say that I find the first phase of any game to be the most fun and smooth. Neither team has an advantage, but what they do then influences the rest of the game; it's all left to skill (the environment I thrive in <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). I guess the uncertainty gives it another dimension... Ammunition types sound a lot like secondary fire to me, switching between standard FMJ ammo and the harder to obtain armor-piercing rounds as in Aliens vs. Predator 2. I want secondary ammo types for different situations; it allows for more flexibility on the part of the individual Marine, not just "I have a grenade launcher! I'm gonna take out some OCs! Aaa, a Skulk!" *dies.* Perhaps expensive impact grenades that make it much easier to take out aliens but cost a consequential amount of resources and less damaging power against structures. Buying one gun and having it be effective against both buildings and aliens, in my opinion, would be an effective and fun counter to the equally fun "selective adaptation" of early game aliens, where they can pick any type upgrade they want but not get another type upgrade until a Hive goes up. If you read this, thanks, and I could use some input to alter my future NS ideas.
I for one appreciate your input (although the suggestions forum would suit it better) <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, the thing about not really being part of the planning, strategizing and execution - instead just handing out weapons to people who do what they feel like:
I get the feeling that your real problem is that your "units" are HUMAN. Simple. You?ve gotten used to your little bot units and now the ungrateful 13-yearold morons online feel like...just that. I don?t think any amount of new tech or drop-packs can rectify that. The good part is, with the right team you can feel just as immersed as in CnC...when your marines follow your orders and move in squads, you can really be a part of the *actual game*, not just whamming down buildings and upgrading.
Also, what people already said: 1.1 will improve the comm interface (freeing you up for tactical decisions) and add new tactics for both sides. Mmmmm. Things will improve, mate.
I am in a tad bit of a hurry so I didn't read all the posts. Some of your ideas could really toss off evening from the sounds of it. Likes the marines for instance, they could have all 3 upgrades, and if you didn't let them, well it would seem odd why you can't have special bullets and special armor. If you play the command right, it can be very stratigic(smart team helps too). I have quickly ploted assaults where I have forced aliens out of their hives and then built defences around the undefended hive. (my distraction was a few jetpack marines at another hive, ordered not to kill any creatures, but to act like they want to) Set up some sieges and had them all come on line at the same second. I sent marines in then and had them clear it up. and with a few more drops, we had a well defended hive. So their was not a quick loss of the hive right after we won it, like in most server.
The point of this is, think on your feet and use your marines advantages(inaccurate and/or dumb marines make great distractions). This will cause commanding to be entertaining to a point and very stratigic.
c'mon guys, its not a speech contest, stop making corny posts... [/RANT]
the only problem i see with commandermode is that the comm is a lil too responsible for making everyone else succed. it would be nice if a marine who stays alive longer got some kind of reward, I.E. and EVER SO SLIGHT increase in the chance to hit a target, or a SLIGHT increase in speed, or a SLIGHTLY stronger armor that would reflect skill in dodging...
this would make it eaiser for the players to excell/ give them some motivation to follow the comms orders insted of go off and get killed/
In the older versions of NS, i believe, there were several types of armor that would augment the marine's main armor. The commander could drop, in addition to heavy and jetpack armor, sensory armor (mobile motion tracking) and Lifesaver armor (I'm guessing it projects a shield around you when you're near death, from what the descrip says). Just look around among the documents that are in the ns folder. This is extroadinarily similar to the "packs" system that Tribes employs, and also seems to resemble the more mobile alien upgrade system. If fast, counter-based gameplay is what NS really needs, these ideas should be brought back, because they seem pretty good.
I got to this thread a bit late. Been gone for about a week...
You've got some kewl ideas, but I really have to contend with your level 3 carapace gripe...
Consider what it takes to GET level 3 carapace...
First, you've gotta go gorge...........13 res Then, defense chamber one...........14 res Then, defense chamber two...........14 res Finally, defense chamber three.......14 res Grand total......................................55 res
All to give the skulk 30 points of armor?!?
It doesn't take Level3 tech to knock out one of those things. It takes marines with aim, or lacking that, turrets. Nice, cheap turrets.
Comments
IT only gets boring for me when surge is the comm <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The point that CNC and NS being totally different RTS's isn't completely valid, IMHO. Though the teams are "completely different," similarities can always be drawn. Otherwise, this wouldn't be much of an RTS would it? For example:
Siege units:
Marines: Siege turret + grenade launchers
Aliens: Umbra + Fades
Anti-siege units:
Marines: Grenade launchers
Aliens: Umbra for the turrets, Fades for the Grenade launchers
Standard infantry grunt:
Marines: Light armor marine
Aliens: Skulk
Assault units:
Marines: HA + HMG
Aliens: Fades
Hit-and-run units:
Marines: Jetpacker
Aliens: Lerks
Base defenses:
Marines: Turrets + Mines
Aliens: Offensive towers
As you can see, despite being "completely different," each team has different units that cover similar purposes. Siege units > buildings, anti-siege units > siege units, standard grunts > anti-siege units, assault > standard grunts, etc.
My problem is that until the mid-game, things remain standard grunt vs standard grunt. Play any other RTS, and you'll find that there are generally 3 pre-tech basic units that can fight each other in a Rock/Paper/Scissors fashion. In WC3, for example, each side has a basic melee unit, a basic ranged unit, and a basic magic unit. In Generals, you have infantry, aircraft, anti-aircraft/anti-infantry, small tank. The mid-game brings more unit types into the mix - air, siege, and "tank" units in WC3; siege units, assault units, and superweapons in Generals.
As I think I've said like 3 or so times before, I think the mid-game in NS is fine. I <b>do not think the mid-game or late-game is boring</b>. Please take some time to let that sink in. Kthx. The only thing I do find boring is the infinite grunt vs grunt gameplay of the early game, which consitutes quite a large portion of the average NS player's gameplay. I made a few, albeit flawed, suggestions that I think might help. I reitterate, if you can come up with better ones, by all means post them. That's why I made the thread after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->otherwise this wouldn't be much of an RTS would it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its only an RTS for one person, for everyone else its an FPS.
Anyway, the thing about not really being part of the planning, strategizing and execution - instead just handing out weapons to people who do what they feel like:
I get the feeling that your real problem is that your "units" are HUMAN. Simple. You?ve gotten used to your little bot units and now the ungrateful 13-yearold morons online feel like...just that. I don?t think any amount of new tech or drop-packs can rectify that. The good part is, with the right team you can feel just as immersed as in CnC...when your marines follow your orders and move in squads, you can really be a part of the *actual game*, not just whamming down buildings and upgrading.
Also, what people already said: 1.1 will improve the comm interface (freeing you up for tactical decisions) and add new tactics for both sides. Mmmmm. Things will improve, mate.
The point of this is, think on your feet and use your marines advantages(inaccurate and/or dumb marines make great distractions). This will cause commanding to be entertaining to a point and very stratigic.
No distractiion marines made it out alive.
/cuts off author.
NO I WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO EXPLAIN...
c'mon guys, its not a speech contest, stop making corny posts...
[/RANT]
the only problem i see with commandermode is that the comm is a lil too responsible for making everyone else succed. it would be nice if a marine who stays alive longer got some kind of reward, I.E. and EVER SO SLIGHT increase in the chance to hit a target, or a SLIGHT increase in speed, or a SLIGHTLY stronger armor that would reflect skill in dodging...
this would make it eaiser for the players to excell/ give them some motivation to follow the comms orders insted of go off and get killed/
The commander could drop, in addition to heavy and jetpack armor, sensory armor (mobile motion tracking) and Lifesaver armor (I'm guessing it projects a shield around you when you're near death, from what the descrip says). Just look around among the documents that are in the ns folder.
This is extroadinarily similar to the "packs" system that Tribes employs, and also seems to resemble the more mobile alien upgrade system.
If fast, counter-based gameplay is what NS really needs, these ideas should be brought back, because they seem pretty good.
You've got some kewl ideas, but I really have to contend with your level 3 carapace gripe...
Consider what it takes to GET level 3 carapace...
First, you've gotta go gorge...........13 res
Then, defense chamber one...........14 res
Then, defense chamber two...........14 res
Finally, defense chamber three.......14 res
Grand total......................................55 res
All to give the skulk 30 points of armor?!?
It doesn't take Level3 tech to knock out one of those things. It takes marines with aim, or lacking that, turrets. Nice, cheap turrets.