Commanding In Natural Selection Is Kind Of Boring.
Chopper_Dave1
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Some new observations gained from C&C</div> Alright, so I've been playing a lot of CNC Generals lately. A little too much, maybe. So I've gotten used to computers following my orders to the T, amongst other things. Phew, what a shock it was to come back to Natural Selection. But that's not the point.
The point is that between Generals and Natural Selection, I find the latter incredibly boring. Mainly because, especially in public games, the commander doesn't actively participate in the marine strategy. He might dole out waypoints, and the marines might even follow them, but there's a little too much "Hey comm I wandered over here and look what I found!" Even the active commander has to rely on his marines' personal skills a little too much to really play an interesting game - such is the sacrifice in having human players, I suppose.
And the aliens. Hmm. A little too restricted a tech system I find now that I have been playing other RTS's - and this hurts both the marine and alien games. Allow me to explain.
You play a game of NS, and the aliens get defensive chamber as they usually do. Level 3 carapace now - what's a marine to do? The nearest possible effective counter to a fully carapaced alien team is a marine team with fully-upgraded weapons. What you say? Level 3 weapons? Doesn't that take 120 resources and a heck of a lot of time? Indeed it does.
Playing an RTS is about methods of attack and counters. In C&C Generals, it's almost like a big game of rock, paper, scissors: aircraft>artilery, artillery>base defenses, base defenses>tanks, tanks>light/anti-aircraft units, light anti-aircraft units>infantry, etc. It's not like that in Natural Selection, most especially in the early game. In fact, things only start to get interesting when Hive 2 comes up, but very rarely will you find a game where the teams are evenly matched enough so that both marines have nice tech and aliens have 2 hives.
So for the purpose of discussion, let's talk about the following possibility:
Let's pretend, for a second, that aliens might be able to build ALL chambers, at any point in the game. Their only limit of course, is time and resources. There also might be a "hive" ability limit - you can only buy as many abilities as you have hives. So your team may have sensory, defense, and movement at Hive 1, but you can only choose one per life until Hive 2 comes up. Now let's also pretend that the marines have specific, cheap, and effective counters to each of your given abilities. However, they have their own buildings and research patterns that they must follow in order to get these upgrades.
So, for example:
Let's say the first thing the aliens do is get the defense tower, and get fully carapaced. If the commander gets up an advanced armory, he'll be able to drop "Armor-piercing bullet" packs for 2-4 res a piece (depending on the grade he wants), which pretty much instantly upgrades the marines' weapon weapon to level 1-3 until he dies. This can nullify carapace advantages, make marines stronger against movement advantages, and make them susceptable to sensory upgrades (a cloaked alien doesn't need to close the distance).
Then perhaps the aliens go movement tower first, and get celerity/silence. The commander can get an arms lab, which will allow him to drop armor packs for 2-4 a piece. This will nullify the extra bite skulks will get in due to their movement (and maybe sensory abilities) but leave the marine especially susceptible to a carapaced alien.
And then maybe there could be a "radar backpack" (available with observatory) drop for marines, in case aliens opt for cloaking. It would slow marines down, but allow them to pinpoint the position of any nearby aliens. This would be an advantage against sensory aliens, a disadvantage against movement aliens, and have no real effect against carapaced aliens.
These drops would be instantly available anywhere on the map, giving commanders a direct grip on battles. A lot of armored aliens? Drop some armor-piercing bullets to level the battlefield. Afraid of entering a heavity cloaker-camped area? Give your marines some radar backpacks. The kicker is that marines would still have the ability to perma-research all of these things (weapons upgrades, defense upgrades, and MT, respectively), allowing them a definite advantage by midgame if they decide to do so. It'll also give each game a definite slant, which would make things more interesting.
Ideally, the aliens might start with an early-game strength, and an early game weakness, and the marines do the same. Soon enough, with the inflow of resources, both teams will be able to drop buildings that give them an additional strength or weakness. Finally, the aliens and marines would build their third and final ability building - this is still all in the early game - then work on teching. Aliens would of course be getting their hive, marines would be getting their equipment (guns, HA's, JP's etc) and perma-upgrades. By the mid-game, aliens would have their choice from a slew of full-upgrades and new abilities and evolutions. On the other hand, the marines would have a few perma-upgrades, extra upgrades to fill the voids in emergencies, and some nice new toys to play with. And of course, skill would still be a huge factor - marines will still have to shoot straight to make good use of those AP bullets - but the commander influence will be there.
Therefore, the best marine teams would be those that vary their forces and use resource carefully. Clanners might decide to have certain people be the radar carriers, certain people to have the uber-bullets, and other people to have the armor. Who know's, maybe the best marine teams will have a varied force of early-game marines: armored players up front taking the blows, followed by weapons marines to do the killing, and a motion-tracking backpacker bringing up the rear to help them detect nearby threats. Only the best teams though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Meanwhile, aliens could do exactly the same thing with their upgrades. People could decide to be scouts, and use celerity and/or silence to keep tabs on marines. Or they could be grunts, and use carapace to give them sheer attacking skill (better hope they don't have AP bullets though). Or they could be the stealthy type, using cloaking to guard areas. With varied enough forces, the alien team could be just as effective as a well-commanded marine team and be much more effective at keeping the enemy on their toes. And this is just in the early game.
Anybody else feel the same way about I do? Do you like my ideas, or have a few of your own? Or am I just full of crap and NS is perfect? Please tell me!
The point is that between Generals and Natural Selection, I find the latter incredibly boring. Mainly because, especially in public games, the commander doesn't actively participate in the marine strategy. He might dole out waypoints, and the marines might even follow them, but there's a little too much "Hey comm I wandered over here and look what I found!" Even the active commander has to rely on his marines' personal skills a little too much to really play an interesting game - such is the sacrifice in having human players, I suppose.
And the aliens. Hmm. A little too restricted a tech system I find now that I have been playing other RTS's - and this hurts both the marine and alien games. Allow me to explain.
You play a game of NS, and the aliens get defensive chamber as they usually do. Level 3 carapace now - what's a marine to do? The nearest possible effective counter to a fully carapaced alien team is a marine team with fully-upgraded weapons. What you say? Level 3 weapons? Doesn't that take 120 resources and a heck of a lot of time? Indeed it does.
Playing an RTS is about methods of attack and counters. In C&C Generals, it's almost like a big game of rock, paper, scissors: aircraft>artilery, artillery>base defenses, base defenses>tanks, tanks>light/anti-aircraft units, light anti-aircraft units>infantry, etc. It's not like that in Natural Selection, most especially in the early game. In fact, things only start to get interesting when Hive 2 comes up, but very rarely will you find a game where the teams are evenly matched enough so that both marines have nice tech and aliens have 2 hives.
So for the purpose of discussion, let's talk about the following possibility:
Let's pretend, for a second, that aliens might be able to build ALL chambers, at any point in the game. Their only limit of course, is time and resources. There also might be a "hive" ability limit - you can only buy as many abilities as you have hives. So your team may have sensory, defense, and movement at Hive 1, but you can only choose one per life until Hive 2 comes up. Now let's also pretend that the marines have specific, cheap, and effective counters to each of your given abilities. However, they have their own buildings and research patterns that they must follow in order to get these upgrades.
So, for example:
Let's say the first thing the aliens do is get the defense tower, and get fully carapaced. If the commander gets up an advanced armory, he'll be able to drop "Armor-piercing bullet" packs for 2-4 res a piece (depending on the grade he wants), which pretty much instantly upgrades the marines' weapon weapon to level 1-3 until he dies. This can nullify carapace advantages, make marines stronger against movement advantages, and make them susceptable to sensory upgrades (a cloaked alien doesn't need to close the distance).
Then perhaps the aliens go movement tower first, and get celerity/silence. The commander can get an arms lab, which will allow him to drop armor packs for 2-4 a piece. This will nullify the extra bite skulks will get in due to their movement (and maybe sensory abilities) but leave the marine especially susceptible to a carapaced alien.
And then maybe there could be a "radar backpack" (available with observatory) drop for marines, in case aliens opt for cloaking. It would slow marines down, but allow them to pinpoint the position of any nearby aliens. This would be an advantage against sensory aliens, a disadvantage against movement aliens, and have no real effect against carapaced aliens.
These drops would be instantly available anywhere on the map, giving commanders a direct grip on battles. A lot of armored aliens? Drop some armor-piercing bullets to level the battlefield. Afraid of entering a heavity cloaker-camped area? Give your marines some radar backpacks. The kicker is that marines would still have the ability to perma-research all of these things (weapons upgrades, defense upgrades, and MT, respectively), allowing them a definite advantage by midgame if they decide to do so. It'll also give each game a definite slant, which would make things more interesting.
Ideally, the aliens might start with an early-game strength, and an early game weakness, and the marines do the same. Soon enough, with the inflow of resources, both teams will be able to drop buildings that give them an additional strength or weakness. Finally, the aliens and marines would build their third and final ability building - this is still all in the early game - then work on teching. Aliens would of course be getting their hive, marines would be getting their equipment (guns, HA's, JP's etc) and perma-upgrades. By the mid-game, aliens would have their choice from a slew of full-upgrades and new abilities and evolutions. On the other hand, the marines would have a few perma-upgrades, extra upgrades to fill the voids in emergencies, and some nice new toys to play with. And of course, skill would still be a huge factor - marines will still have to shoot straight to make good use of those AP bullets - but the commander influence will be there.
Therefore, the best marine teams would be those that vary their forces and use resource carefully. Clanners might decide to have certain people be the radar carriers, certain people to have the uber-bullets, and other people to have the armor. Who know's, maybe the best marine teams will have a varied force of early-game marines: armored players up front taking the blows, followed by weapons marines to do the killing, and a motion-tracking backpacker bringing up the rear to help them detect nearby threats. Only the best teams though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Meanwhile, aliens could do exactly the same thing with their upgrades. People could decide to be scouts, and use celerity and/or silence to keep tabs on marines. Or they could be grunts, and use carapace to give them sheer attacking skill (better hope they don't have AP bullets though). Or they could be the stealthy type, using cloaking to guard areas. With varied enough forces, the alien team could be just as effective as a well-commanded marine team and be much more effective at keeping the enemy on their toes. And this is just in the early game.
Anybody else feel the same way about I do? Do you like my ideas, or have a few of your own? Or am I just full of crap and NS is perfect? Please tell me!
Comments
Anyway, Flayra is working towards giving the game the depth that he intended.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->drop stim packs for like 3-4 res that increase your rate of fire and damage, and make you move faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for mostly 1 reason, logic, how can a stim pack given to the marine increase RoF on a machine gun? or even just a normal gun for that matter? Same with the damage of the gun. But, making the marine faster would not be worth it IMO.
Instant counters vs Non-instant counters is gonna be a strong imbalance.
That said, Flayra has said hes making HUGE changes to the tech trees for both sides, redoing resource models, improving commander interface, etc etc. So my reccomendation is to wait for 1.1.
NS is a free game, it didn't cost you anything, maybe a few megabytes but thats it. And as you can see it uses a very new concept that most rts games dont have or won't ever touch because its so unpredictable.
NS is different because its a different breeze from all the "click on unit and give it a waypoint to go somewhere/build something" rts games. Its different because its only at v1.04... BETA 1.04.
You need to have some patience and let this game develop, its not totally finished yet my friend.
"Joooiinnn ussssss! WE ARE... THE MANY!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its different because its only at v1.04... BETA 1.04.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[RANT] One common misconception there. NS is not in beta form. the betas came and went during the middle of last year. And they were closed betas at that. v1.0 was exactly that, It was the first version, the first public release. It's a pity mod teams have twisted the meaning of the word 'beta' to the point that it is assumed that the first public release of any mod is a beta release [/RANT]
Why dont you dig out the sega genesis and point out the major flaws between it and the ps2.
however, I'd simply wait for ns version 1.1 to be released before I pronounce my own verdict on the counter system. Right now, NS has broken new ground in terms that it's the first RTS FPS, and a successful one too.
I find the best way to command is to simply talk all the time with my marines. It's easy with a headset mike and with voicerecord bound to mouse 4. I find, however,that I often go for the same 4 or five strategies because the aliens are so predictable and because these are the only ones that work successfully with most average-skilled marine teams.
But just wait till version 1.1. Flayra has said that jetpack is gonna be the "official" counter to onos, which means onos is probably gonna show up before hive 3 and lose paralyze for devour. So by then, there are alot more strategies and alot more counters to try.
And Darkbolt, I KNOW the game isn't finished, ok? MrMojo, I KNOW the game is just an unfinished mod! Same thing to you "wait-for-1.1" naysayers. PERHAPS I am suggesting these ideas with the hope that they might cause some beneficial changes in future versions. Just <i>maybe</i> Flarya hasn't thought of every possible solution, and apparently most of you have been wallowing in your own flawed NS piety that you haven't ventured your own solutions either. What you see above is my own theories of what is wrong with 1.04, and an idea of how to fix it. I'm not saying "It must be done exactly like this," and sitting in a corner and pouting until Flarya makes the changes. In fact, I thought I made it clear enough that this was for discussion purposes in order that future versions of NS may benefit. So stop taking the "well it's just an unfinished game" excuse and make some contributions that might help the game be further <b>finished</b>.
/rant
With that said, I think Typhon did point out a nice flaw in my theory. Yes, it would probably be best if these upgrades were only given out within base structures so that marines would not have the instant counter. Mouse pointed out prety much the same thing. JimmyD's contribution, while kinda silly, was at least a contribution - and Unknown's response to it was,*gasp*, an actual response.
Too bad those were the only responses worth reading, though. Bah...
This is a multiplayer game. Generals is a single player game. You have no direct control over your marines. If you played generals online with not so great people, it would still suck. If you played NS with soem great marines it will be fun.
P.S : I reread your post, and you still dont have a point. You are originaly trying to say that commanding is boring because you dont "move" structers, and I"m guessing make strategic decisions. However, your solution to that doesnt make commanding any funner. You basicaly propopse a few more researched things and a few more things to drop. Will it really matter if you're dropping a medpack or different kind of armor?
Errm, what game are we talking about here? surely not natrual selection! The commander is the backbone and lifeline of the marine team, without a decent commander the marines are destined for F4'ing as soon as fades pop up. i've seen it TOO many times. now on the other hand if u have a good commander that has a battle plan for a particular map, and doesn't just "react" to alien advances then marines can be a force to be reckoned with. The best game of NS i ever played was on marines when our commander (damn forget his name!) totally outsmarted the whole alien team by fooling them into thinking we were attacking on one side of the hive while we secretly built sieges around the back.
Now that being said i can begin to understand your reasoning, because when your commander its like your task handling skillz are maxed out. its VERY stressful to play as a commander, especially with an agressive alien team or armory humping marines that need to be babysitted constantly. But boring? far from it! fun? well maybe to some ppl but i would rather be a grunt in the action than pulling my hair out trying to do a million things at once. at least not with the command mode right now. Perhaps in 1.1 this will change.
ANYWAYS, thats my 2 cents on the matter!
I basically feel that commanding in NS is limited to dropping buildings, especially in the early game. Dropping buildings is nice, but it's only half the equation in a Real-time Strategy game. Imagine what it would be like if, when playing Warcraft III or Generals, that you could build the base and buy the upgrades, but do nothing else. Tanks and airplanes or knights and dragons would pour out of your barracades, but would only have a general idea of your plan and not always follow it to the T. Thus you would simply watch your peons do the work, able to contribute nothing but a guard tower here and there to assist in their efforts. Boring? Yes sir!
That's basically the way Natural Selection functions now, until the mid-game. The mid-game is perfectly fine IMHO, because the multiple strategies involved with attack and defending with HA's and JP's and shotguns and HMG's and GL's against fades and umbra and skulk resource munchers is quite interesting for commanders. The problem is two-fold: a) in most games, such a mid-game is not reached (either a two-hive lockdown or a quick alien victory occurs) and b) the early game just plain ain't interesting for commanders. We build a bunch of structures while marines wander around with 1 or 2 early upgrades. Then when the marines gain control of key points, we build more structures. There's not much that we do except build structures and research. That's not fun. That's boring. What I am basically asking for is the ability to have early-game drops that commanders can use to directly affect their marine players, and thus use to affect the early game. By allowing the commadners to affect a player's usefulness throughout the entire game and not just during the mid-game and end-game would make things more interesting.
Yes but thats the whole POINT of early game. To get to the mid-game battles it's slightly required to BUILD STUFF! Such is the progress of the game, or any basic RTS for that matter. The early game is crucial for marines to secure nodes and build up defences for the alien rush. Then u have to worry about locking down a hive right away. So i dont see how u can say commanding is boring because u are required to build certian buldings/upgrades at the beginning of the game. without these buildings/upgrades your marines are toast. Sure it can get repeetive after a while but to get to midgame u must first get ready for it. Your argument doesn't make much sense. It's like u started watching a football game after halftime and after 5 mins u take a guess who will win.
Every minute in NS counts, from the moment u hop in the chair until u get stomped by an ono's. its just the way the game is, and why its so fun. Besides if u think commanding is so boring, take a break for a while. Hop out of the chair, grab a gun and get your hands dirty. NS is all about options, commanding is just ONE.
What I see your recommendations as attempting to do however are make the game more directly determined by the ability of the commander to think on the fly, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but its definitely a product of playing rts's with automatons that do your every bidding without question.
I'm mostly neutral on the matter. I like for the game to place more emphasis on the entire team, rather than on one individual, which is what these suggestions would do for the most part.
Aside from what froggy said, this is what med-packs, ammo-packs, and scanning ahead is for. May not be the kind of deph you expect at this point, but like froggy said, it is the early game where its mostly prepping (as in any RTS).
The interface is also partially responsible for the lack of in-depth contact, and I think 1.1's improved interface, including quick selection, grouping, and the improved hotkeys, will let the commander get much more involved... perhaps even to the point where the marines start yelling at him for telling them how to retreat. ^^ Hopefully, giving commands will be a lot faster and easier. With the current system, I would say that the commander is spread too thin already to give him MORE tech tree options... perhaps with a streamlined interface, he'll have free time to think about more upgrades.
One problem with I see wrong with your view point is that you are comparing CNCG to NS. In CNCG all sides are pretty much equal. They all have airplanes, minus the GLA, all have infantry, superweapons, etc. In NS, the two teams are NOTHING alike. One hits from a distance, walks slow, and depends on one guy for their weapons and resource management. The other team hits from a much closer range, goes faster, and can have multiple people deciding how their resources are spent. (Upgrades, multiple gorges, etc) Its easy to look at a game that has pretty much every team equal and say "for X there is counter Y" but to apply that to an RPG/FPS where the two teams are hardly alike can be much more difficult.
Other things you mentioned, like special bullets, is a pretty cool idea - but if not implement right would just completely render the alien's upgrades worthless. (IE - every marine has armor pricing bullets and can refill them.) If I were to suggest such an idea I would say something like "X amount of RPs for X amount of bullets and the armory cannot rearm the marine with these bullets." I really didn't follow what you were saying with your 3 upgrade chambers for one hive idea -- would you be allowed to have level 3 for all * assuming the proper time and resources were allotted* chambers with just one hive or it be more like you have three levels and you _could_ get level 3 carapace or you could get a variety like level 1 def/move/sens. I think the latter idea would be quite an improvement -- and then with each hive that comes online you are allowed another three levels to advance in.
But now consider this, Chopper, what if everything mentioned here was put into NS? I money is on the fact that you would still find commanding "boring." You are still just droping things for the marines, its just a wider varity of things.
Woohoo go Hydralisks!!
boy i played starcraft and the expansion pack 3 years ago.
Why the heck am i still remembering everything from starcraft and Starcraft Brood Wars?
marines
zealots
hydralisk
zerglings
firebats
dragoons
medic
the list goes on and on, with units, upgrades, and builldings... I STILL CAN REMEMBEr this danm game!
Anyway, like what steve said the "Radar Backpacks" would be kind of redundant. Also, adding new features involves a LOT more than saying "this would be cool, it could be used in this situation." You have to ask yourself if it's already in the game, or if it interferes too much with the functionality of something else, or if its benefits outweigh the clutter of being there and be worth making the game more complicated. It's great to have ideas and stuff, but IMO dropping armor-piercing bullets would not be worth the hassle. It's another button, and only helps in certain situations. Also, how would armor piercing ammo combine with your regular ammo stock? Would marines be able to request armor piercing ammo? Does armor piercing ammo apply for grenades? At first glance a lot of ideas seem cool, but they're actually frought with complications and confusion.