<!--QuoteBegin--Moon+Feb 22 2003, 06:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Moon @ Feb 22 2003, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In certain mods like vampire-slayer having a leap-script is pretty much required to play effectively. In fact I'd go as far to say that it would be unbalanced without that particular script. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, I disagree, I use no scripts in VS and although im not godly or anything, I can say that I keep up with people.
<!--QuoteBegin--RazorClaw+Feb 22 2003, 12:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RazorClaw @ Feb 22 2003, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--*Dread*+Feb 22 2003, 07:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (*Dread* @ Feb 22 2003, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remove all scripting and we get rid of this discussion once and for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Remove all scripting and the effectiveness of most commanders will go down ALOT, it's more or less essential for commanders to use some sort of scripts.
It might take a couple of seconds longer for a comm to do each action without any shortcut keys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Scripts and binds are not the same.
I have <i>never</i> seen a gameplay changing script. Being able to script a conc jump in TFC (which mind you has absolutely NOTHING to do with NS, but you all like to pull examples out like that anyway) is a Bad Idea™. During those long 3 seconds while you prime, you are basically stuck. Someone walks up and starts shooting you? Goodbye. Scripting means you are stuck doing whatever it is you were doing for the duration of the script. People who say that it helps your timing? It doesn't. Waits are both individual to your computer and occaisionally flunctuate (at least it seems to me while trying to figure out how many waits in a second.)
So the person who complained about getting bitten by someone midleap. Let me just say that I could probably do that without a script. In all actuality, it'd be harder to do it with a script. Scripts do not support if/thens. They have no decision making capabilities whatsoever. What that means is simple. I hit that button and I am gonna be stuck in leap for the duration and then bite when I land. Only problem is that scripts don't do that. What scripts do is switch to leap, hit attack, and wait say three fourths of a second, then switch to bite and start attacking again. Therein lies the rub, no human will ever write enough scripts to select the proper range of leap so that you start biting immediately upon touchdown. No one. Ever.
Also, you don't need to have to have good scripts to be on par with a scripter. Because scripts do <i>nothing</i> for you combat capability. In fact, I'm willing to bet that my optical mouse is more likely to be the deciding component. Not my parasite script (which I don't have) or even leap/bite. Because quite frankly, there exists no situation where any scripter has an advantage over a normal player. None. You want a perfect tau jump? You learn it yourself. The script can't do it for you. It is impossible for anyone to create a one-size fits all tau script.
You want to know what bothers me the most about this entire thread? It is that people believe you somehow gain magical abilities through the use of scripts. You know what having alot of scripts gains you? The only I have ever gained was the ability to crouch and use toggle. That is it. No combat situation is the same, so you can not use a uniform response to it (which is what scripts provide). Those people biting you in midleap? That wasn't a script, that was someone who knew where the one key on his keyboard was.
EDIT: Trying to address some more points...
Scripts do not give the player any superhuman reflexes btw. Scripts are just as prone to lag as you are. So if someone can somehow leap in, bite a marine, and then leap out, I would not blame superior scripting. I would merely respect that person for an effective utilization of tolls given to him. Those tools would be a keyboard and a mouse. I can leap/bite/parasite/do a dance without a script. I can strafe without a script. And I can also point in a general direction and loose an LMG clip, without a script. These are all things the game is meant to do. If someone is unable to multitask well enough and requires a script to do ANY of the above, I will not view that as a script. I will view that as an opportunity to kill them. Because simply, scripts make you do regular movements/actions at predictable intervals. Only with human control can you dodge, and only with human control can you reliably leap someone to death.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited February 2003
Aside: Well argued, DarkWulf. One of the most coherent scripting-related posts I've ever seen, and not a single stoop to personal attacks or other base tactics. (That said, your signature image violates forum policy. 400x75 pixels, 22kb. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
On topic: I would *love* an excuse to lock this thread, people. Don't give me one.
EDIT: oh yah, and the coolest thing is that was mostly a canned response. :-X this discussion comes up so much I barely had to read this thread. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Seems someone somewhere will always be jealous of someone's seemingly superhuman abilities. (I have seen some very impressive FLF sniping videos, and since then I will never believe in aimbot accusations. The man owned my pants off)
I also dont like ppl who use scripts, binds and aliases ok, those make the game fun, but scripts... They are just to easy, how can u be proud of a script kill? I woudnt have as much fun in this game if I would use scripts, I would get bored. Enjoy the game like it is, if the modcreators wanted u to make a leap/bite combo then they would have scripted it themselves, but then again someone else would script a leap/bite/parasite/bunnyhop/crouch script to make it even more easy and "kewl". These ppl will always exist, just find the good servers. Too bad ppl that have scripts want to play against ppl without scrpits so they have a advantage, or else I would have said make servers that are only for ppl with scripts...
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkWulf+Feb 22 2003, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkWulf @ Feb 22 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because scripts do <i>nothing</i> for you combat capability.
-------
You want to know what bothers me the most about this entire thread? It is that people believe you somehow gain magical abilities through the use of scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pistoldump script
i can click my pistol fire button pretty damn fast, making it a very effective weapon in my hands. I've seen people who cant land anything more than 1 or 2 bullets with a pistol.
now, someone can write a script that will empty ten pistol bullets in half a second. tell me that isn't giving someone a combat advantage.
a script will get the pistol to fire faster than is humanly possible.
Although, i must say you put up a very good arguement for things like "leap/bite" scripts which i dont mind toooooo much. i see a lot more people complaining about pistol scripts than leap-bite ones, so thats where i personally draw the line.
Under your reasoning... bind mouse1 +attack is an exploit.
The thing is that the mwheel pistol dealie ain't a script. Its the use of a control surface that can be hit VERY quickly. I've personally been able to do similar (albeit slightly slower) rapid pistol fire by binding a keyboard key to attack. (mind you, I don't use WASD).
And I pity the fool that scripts a 10 shot pistol script. You just wasted 6 bullets. I can see a double-tap script working. (I almost do it automatically now) however I fear that 10 shots in half a second actually screw the marine over more than the alien. You're screwed if you miss, and you're screwed if you don't miss but there is more than one skulk.
you know, player one made me see a new possibilty...
while currently I have my mousewheel bound to an alias (WAIT DONT KILL ME YET) that permits me of either walking permanently forward or +using permanently.
ok here it is about, I just redone it so it's not errorproof <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> bind mwheelup action bind mwheeldown unaction bind mouse3 toggleaction
alias toggleaction "use" alias use "alias action +use; alias unaction -use; alias toggleaction walk" alias walk "alias action +forward; alias unaction -forward; alias toggleaction use" <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
now while you may ask me what the hell does this script do, it just makes you walk without having to press w or uparrow (or whatever key) or building without pressing e.
The advantage that makes for me is that I can type while walking or building without making gaps where the e's should be... or just let me build while I'm eating my cookies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now what could easily be done is bind mwheelup slot1 (with fastswitch)
add bind mwheelup slot3 to scroll down to leap again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and that isn't a script of any kind imo...
as to the pistol...
bind you whole keypad to +attack and smash it down when you see a skulk ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--MedHead+Feb 22 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Feb 22 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--RazorClaw+Feb 22 2003, 06:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RazorClaw @ Feb 22 2003, 06:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remove all scripting and the effectiveness of most commanders will go down ALOT, it's more or less essential for commanders to use some sort of scripts.
It might take a couple of seconds longer for a comm to do each action without any shortcut keys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which would then support that scripting gives an unfair advantage, and therefore is a cheat.
I don't understand why people seem to think that cheating, if it's not too big of a cheat, is therefore okay. Where do you draw the line on 'wrong'? As long as it doesn't allow you to see through walls, you're okay with it? Come on guys, get some standards, some integrity! You keep bending, and the cheaters will keep pushing!
I also don't understand why the cheat sympathizers keep rationalizing these things away, regardless of the fact that Flayra has already declared it a cheat! I think that shows you that <b>you are already wrong.</b>
When will everyone finally admit scripts like these are cheating? Will you finally admit scripts are generally wrong when they play the game for you? Is that when they cross the line?
Moon, let me propose something. Let's say I'm an experienced veteran. I am one of the top players in the world. I have a fully scripted, customized version of Natural Selection. I have edited all my models to be blank (without using the drawviewmodel exploit). I have edited out all background sounds. I have made multiple scripts to change weapons quickly. I've increased the sounds of footsteps so I can hear everyone better. I have increased the gamma and brightness so I don't have any shadows. I have perfected the bunny hop, allowing me to dodge most of your attacks. You, however, do not. You may be good, but you're running the stock version of Natural Selection. You haven't even changed your name yet. Are you now willing to state that these 'modifications' to my computer don't give much of an advantage? If left seperate, none of these seem to go beyond your personal specification of giving too much of an advantage. However, combined, they seem to be quite daunting, don't they? And in the right hands, they're even worse!
And who said that the players using these scripts actually wrote them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tend to agree with you that given enough combinations of modifications you could indeed gain a significant advantage. However I could extend my principle to argue that _not all combinations_ give you a significant advantage. In the instance you mentioned I would agree that that seems way over the top. I would never play with such a combination because despite what some might think 'scripting' is not always done for the sole purpose of gaining an advantage.
Some thoughts here: I can define two basic mindsets when scripting. Scripting for 'intuitive controls and atmosphere' versus scripting 'to blow away the competition'. Granted, the two instances are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I can honestly say though, when I use scripts it's not with the mindset of "owning" anybody, it is because I become frustrated with clunky-controls for the most part.
Consider this: when you play as an alien (or marine for that matter) you are linking finger-actions e.g. a mouse click to produce a certain action by the creature you are playing right ? So the more natural those finger-actions become the more natural you tend to move as the creature (as it would move in reality if you really were that creature). The more natural you can move as that creature the more the sense of "being there" becomes. That is why I script for the most part, because I want to feel as if I'm there. Setting gamma values to remove shadows etc. doesn't appeal to me at all because it would spoil the atmosphere of the game. If I developed some sort of super-script that killed anybody on the spot, I wouldn't use it because it would spoil the atmosphere of the game (i.e. I want to feel as if I'm in real danger). So ja, I guess what I'm saying here is that people will always rationalize things like scripting if for no other reason that it contributes to the level of immersion they experience.
so anyway, just to get back to my original post for a second... which of the 6 players i described is cheating?
i reckon players #5 and #6 are cheating. a script that automates the "+attack" just seems kinda wrong to me. however, i also think that a player with any skill would be able to pull off a better leap/bite combo manually (or using player #4's setup, say), than the 'cheating' players, #5 and #6. automating the attacks just isn't flexible enough.
that inflexibility could be seen as a counter to the supposed advantages of scripting. however it doesn't always work like that : take the case of the rapid-fire pistol script. it doesn't take very long at all to empty half a clip with an auto-fire script, so it's almost pure advantage for the user.
<!--QuoteBegin--RazorClaw+Feb 22 2003, 05:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RazorClaw @ Feb 22 2003, 05:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Aphon+Feb 22 2003, 09:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aphon @ Feb 22 2003, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i dont use any type of leap/bitegun scripts and i can manage to do it just fine without them. Its not like its a very hard thing to do. Also, if you did use lame **** scripts like that... how would you get leap kills on ppl? I love getting leap kills on ppl and after getting 2 hives as aliens, thats all i go for anyways :o <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Leap doesn't do as much damage as people claim, I was once facing a LA marine and used leap straight at his torso, he died but I could have bit him to death faster than leap killed him. Leaping at em and biting kills em fastest for sure.
I read somewhere that it does damage till you touch the ground... thats so not true, it probably does damage about 5-10 times or something. I havent tested just guessing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> maybe you just need to learn how to use leap
As for the "pistol" script... I can shoot just as fast or faster by pushing the mouse1 key very rapidly. Faster clicking = Faster shooting. Are you gonna call me a cheater becuase Im able to smash my mouse button faster than you can?
Lets compare:
Lets say you have a race with a friend, You both have go carts.
Now he has a bigger engine than you, and he whoops your @$$. Are you gonna call him a cheater for having a bigger engine?
"OMG U CHEATER U HAVE A BIGGER ENGINE THAN ME U CHEATER OMG IM GONNA REPORT YOU AND BAN YOU FROM LIFE FOREVER!!!"
There is nothing wrong with scripts.... UNLESS they exploit or crash a server THATS when its over the line.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> alias "w1" "wait" alias "w2" "w1;w1" alias "w4" "w2;w2" alias "w8" "w4;w4" alias "w16" "w8;w8"
alias "leap" "use weapon_leap;w2;+jump;+attack;w1;-attack;-jump;w1;use weapon_bitegun" <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
I skimmed rather than waded through the last six pages (it doesn't seem that the argument has evolved since the first page, so I can get away with it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Firstly (here I go again) a sweeping statement of "scripts are cheating" or "scripts are for n00bs" isn't fair. My <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=16289' target='_blank'>BFCAS</a> is a script, but it doesn't give a player an incredible advantage. In TFC, a script which changes your grenades so that instead of holding down the key you press to arm and press to throw is the same sort of thing. These are just conveniences.
Now that that's out the way...
As for scripts like leap-and-bite, they're perfectly valid in my book because they don't do something which cannot ordinarily be performed. They might be cheap, but certainly not outlawed. A script which takes advantage of an engine exploit, or which drains your pistol clip faster than a human being can actually click - that kind of thing is out of line. However, it IS possible to leap and then bite very quickly. My slot1 is on my RMB; I can leap-and-bite effortlessly without a script. Scripting this action doesn't really make a lot of difference anyway.
In my book, scripting is okay when it's used to customise, to mould the game to your play style, and to make life easier. It's only not okay when it gives you a significant edge over non scripters. An auto bunnyhop script is over the line (but I'm biased, I hate bhopping anyway) but a leap and bite combo isn't.
While we're at it, scripts like these are generally unreliable. It's also much easier to adapt to a change in the situation if you're not using scripts. In TFC, I used to use a script to pull out my knife and start slashing when I held down RMB, then stop, put the knife away and pull out my last weapon when I let go. The thing is, it wasn't dependable enough for when I needed my knife in a critical situation. If I tapped it instead of holding, it would screw up some times and it was hard to coordinate and... anyway, my point is that it was EASIER to just move my slot1 to RMB. Scripts provide a small advantage, but sometimes they're restricting.
<!--QuoteBegin--shader+Feb 23 2003, 12:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shader @ Feb 23 2003, 12:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> take the case of the rapid-fire pistol script. it doesn't take very long at all to empty half a clip with an auto-fire script, so it's almost pure advantage for the user. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are only two things that worry me as a marine when I hear the pitter patter of little skulk feet. One is the pitter patter of MANY skulk feet, and the other is the pitter patter of skulk feet when my guns are empty.
You have an auto-fire script (which btw: doesn't exist. OGC has that ability, but not scripting. On the other hand binding MWHEELUP for those "flick shots" eh... maybe) so sure the first skulk goes down in a burst of wildly aimed pistol rounds (which btw is rather pointless, you will die with or without that script. The marine obviously planted his crosshairs and opened fire...) So scratch one skulk. Now you have mr l33t script-tastic, who has wasted all 10 bullets, versus say me, who instead double tapped thrice and now has 4 bullets left in my pistol clip. So second skulk leaps into action.
Who has the pure advantage now? The man who unloaded a full clip (half into thin air) because he scroll-shot or whatever you decide to call it? Or me, who still has 4 rounds left to plug into that poor skulk?
There are more variables in NS than bullets you can place into the air per second. Having bullets to place into the air is very important too.
EDIT: ooo... while I'm here. This thread sucks. Because most people refuse to listen to either side. We have such brilliance as the blanket statement that "Scripts are for noobs." which appears to be all many people have read (it has been a long 7 pages), and also those who refuse to change their opinions.
This thread has been pointless every time it has been brought up in the past. I fail to see how I or anyone else could change people's perceptions. There will always be people who swear everyone but them has an advantage over them, imagined or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Player #3 this girl has written a toggle script. she has set up one key near her movement keys to toggle between leap mode and bite mode. every time she presses the key it swaps her active weapon from one to the other. in the heat of battle, she may forget which one is active and bite when she meant to leap or vice versa.
thats me.,. lol.. i been caught.. tho i really gotta stop getting mixed up on my damn leap and bite. especially when escaping.. i seem to bite away intstead of leap away >.< ,, only happens sometimes..
it wont work without the waits . i dunno if its exploiting, or cheating , i have to click to bite, thos the first time i click it dont work. but its just one key which is bound as an attack.. all the rest of my other spare keys are bound as commands or sounds.. especially my fav--- the chuckle >:)..
HOnestly, I don't draw the line with a "Script" as you've defined it here. A combination lack of code skill and a serius ego problem that won't let me cheat keeps me from using it, but a script seems to be a far cry from an "Aimbot", which as far as I know lets you allways hit? someone. A script wouldn't bother me at all really, as in "Real Life"(work with me here), the skulk would be able to do it that fast. That dosn't bother me. It's invincible skulks, or the ones that go through walls that would, know what I mean?
Frankly, the amount of debating over this is amazing.
A cheat, is a cheat.
A script, is a script.
A keybind is a keybind.
Debate it all you want, they are different things. A cheat lets you do something in game you shouldn't be able to do. A script automates processes in game that theoretically you *could* do. A Keybind does ONE action for a keypress.
I feel that if flarya wanted the pistol to shoot like an automatic, that's how it would have been designed. People say "I'm just automating something I can do myself, I'm just making it easier, I'm just speeding it up". Well, if you are making it easier, then you are giving yourself an advantage over those that don't script. If you are speeding something up, you are giving an advantage to yourself, etc... etc...
Face it people, most of those that don't use scripts aren't people that "can't program their own". They are people that felt that the game comes with features and challenges. It is up to the player to PLAY the game WITH those challenges, not script around them. You don't see people patting each other on the back at tournaments saying "Nice script dude". Why? Because they are there to show their skills, not scripting prowess.
If you do it with skill, you are good. If you do it with a script, you are lame. I don't care how long you've been playing the game, if you aren't doing something on your own, you are being a lamer. If you can't do it on your own, practice.
Well, in the interest of staying on topic, I'll add my opinion.
<b>Player #4</b> this guy has set up some aliases so that one key near his movement keys will switch to leap as the active weapon when it is held down, and then swap back to bite when the key is released. he can't get confused like Player #3 could - for him, key down = leap mode, key up = bite mode.
This player is over the line. Everything beforehand could be done with the Configuration screen.
About Flayra and scripting: I was taking the word of another user who was in this thread. About me being thickheaded: Thank you. Soft mushy heads have leaky brains. Right and wrong. Nothing in between.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sg1_stinky+Feb 23 2003, 01:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sg1_stinky @ Feb 23 2003, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i just have few things to say about scripts...
Remove them completly. Disable the abilty to use them. remove them from the game.
i think _anything_ that "makes it easy" is cheating.
that's it nothing more to say in this case <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Vunderbar. Another one. How about actually reading the other argument before posting meaningless moosh like this? :/
no I don't consider scripting cheating. While you may not perhaps shoot 1 mouse button as fast as the script (perhaps) you lose:
1) the possibility to shoot only 1 bullet or not the whole clip 2) the possibility to stop shooting after he retreated 3) any second chance
if you have problems on clicking on only 1 button, bind both your mouse buttons to +attack and hit them all like mad when you see a skulk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As to the leap/bite script, it doesn't really <i>need</i> any perticular skill does it? just press the one key somewhere during your flight... with autoswitch... The advantages are obvious: you calculate when the bite is needed, if needed.
oh and no-one replied to my permanent +use/+forward script D: is THAT cheating? I hope you're kidding if it is... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> What advantage does it give you? only the advantage to type while walking (dangerous) or while building (or you can leave out the Es, or use leetspeak e's: "go to port 3ngin3 room pl3as3)
<!--QuoteBegin--Sg1_stinky+Feb 23 2003, 12:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sg1_stinky @ Feb 23 2003, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i just have few things to say about scripts...
Remove them completly. Disable the abilty to use them. remove them from the game.
i think _anything_ that "makes it easy" is cheating.
that's it nothing more to say in this case<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sg1_stinky better remove that script in his NS directory called config.cfg if hes so antiscript...
Thats the script that makes gameplay possible (since it contains all the keybinds) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> !
I agree strongly with Darkwulf, automation scripts are a double edged sword. As for Cereal_KillR's constant move/ use script is not a problem in my opinion.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I'm done watching this thread. None of you are saying anything intelligent (with a few rare exceptions), and the argument is going nowhere.
Flayra will decide what to do with scripting. You might recall that 1.0 had an anti-leap-script feature that killed you instantly if you switched weapons too fast. It was removed because it was discovered that some players can manually switch weapons as fast as a script would do it for them, and thus were getting killed. Make of that what you will.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, I disagree, I use no scripts in VS and although im not godly or anything, I can say that I keep up with people.
Remove all scripting and the effectiveness of most commanders will go down ALOT, it's more or less essential for commanders to use some sort of scripts.
It might take a couple of seconds longer for a comm to do each action without any shortcut keys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripts and binds are not the same.
So the person who complained about getting bitten by someone midleap. Let me just say that I could probably do that without a script. In all actuality, it'd be harder to do it with a script. Scripts do not support if/thens. They have no decision making capabilities whatsoever. What that means is simple. I hit that button and I am gonna be stuck in leap for the duration and then bite when I land. Only problem is that scripts don't do that. What scripts do is switch to leap, hit attack, and wait say three fourths of a second, then switch to bite and start attacking again. Therein lies the rub, no human will ever write enough scripts to select the proper range of leap so that you start biting immediately upon touchdown. No one. Ever.
Also, you don't need to have to have good scripts to be on par with a scripter. Because scripts do <i>nothing</i> for you combat capability. In fact, I'm willing to bet that my optical mouse is more likely to be the deciding component. Not my parasite script (which I don't have) or even leap/bite. Because quite frankly, there exists no situation where any scripter has an advantage over a normal player. None. You want a perfect tau jump? You learn it yourself. The script can't do it for you. It is impossible for anyone to create a one-size fits all tau script.
You want to know what bothers me the most about this entire thread? It is that people believe you somehow gain magical abilities through the use of scripts. You know what having alot of scripts gains you? The only I have ever gained was the ability to crouch and use toggle. That is it. No combat situation is the same, so you can not use a uniform response to it (which is what scripts provide). Those people biting you in midleap? That wasn't a script, that was someone who knew where the one key on his keyboard was.
EDIT: Trying to address some more points...
Scripts do not give the player any superhuman reflexes btw. Scripts are just as prone to lag as you are. So if someone can somehow leap in, bite a marine, and then leap out, I would not blame superior scripting. I would merely respect that person for an effective utilization of tolls given to him. Those tools would be a keyboard and a mouse. I can leap/bite/parasite/do a dance without a script. I can strafe without a script. And I can also point in a general direction and loose an LMG clip, without a script. These are all things the game is meant to do. If someone is unable to multitask well enough and requires a script to do ANY of the above, I will not view that as a script. I will view that as an opportunity to kill them. Because simply, scripts make you do regular movements/actions at predictable intervals. Only with human control can you dodge, and only with human control can you reliably leap someone to death.
On topic: I would *love* an excuse to lock this thread, people. Don't give me one.
OOO! OOO! COIL NOTICED ME!!!!!!! h4h4. si t3h winn4r.
ok, sorry. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT: oh yah, and the coolest thing is that was mostly a canned response. :-X this discussion comes up so much I barely had to read this thread. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Seems someone somewhere will always be jealous of someone's seemingly superhuman abilities. (I have seen some very impressive FLF sniping videos, and since then I will never believe in aimbot accusations. The man owned my pants off)
They are just to easy, how can u be proud of a script kill? I woudnt have as much fun in this game if I would use scripts, I would get bored. Enjoy the game like it is, if the modcreators wanted u to make a leap/bite combo then they would have scripted it themselves, but then again someone else would script a leap/bite/parasite/bunnyhop/crouch script to make it even more easy and "kewl".
These ppl will always exist, just find the good servers. Too bad ppl that have scripts want to play against ppl without scrpits so they have a advantage, or else I would have said make servers that are only for ppl with scripts...
EDIT: dizzy, alias and binds make up scripts. Another thing they do NOT hav an advantage, please re-read darks post ^^
-------
You want to know what bothers me the most about this entire thread? It is that people believe you somehow gain magical abilities through the use of scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pistoldump script
i can click my pistol fire button pretty damn fast, making it a very effective weapon in my hands. I've seen people who cant land anything more than 1 or 2 bullets with a pistol.
now, someone can write a script that will empty ten pistol bullets in half a second. tell me that isn't giving someone a combat advantage.
a script will get the pistol to fire faster than is humanly possible.
Although, i must say you put up a very good arguement for things like "leap/bite" scripts which i dont mind toooooo much. i see a lot more people complaining about pistol scripts than leap-bite ones, so thats where i personally draw the line.
I totally agree!
Under your reasoning... bind mouse1 +attack is an exploit.
The thing is that the mwheel pistol dealie ain't a script. Its the use of a control surface that can be hit VERY quickly. I've personally been able to do similar (albeit slightly slower) rapid pistol fire by binding a keyboard key to attack. (mind you, I don't use WASD).
And I pity the fool that scripts a 10 shot pistol script. You just wasted 6 bullets. I can see a double-tap script working. (I almost do it automatically now) however I fear that 10 shots in half a second actually screw the marine over more than the alien. You're screwed if you miss, and you're screwed if you don't miss but there is more than one skulk.
while currently I have my mousewheel bound to an alias (WAIT DONT KILL ME YET) that permits me of either walking permanently forward or +using permanently.
ok here it is about, I just redone it so it's not errorproof
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
bind mwheelup action
bind mwheeldown unaction
bind mouse3 toggleaction
alias toggleaction "use"
alias use "alias action +use; alias unaction -use; alias toggleaction walk"
alias walk "alias action +forward; alias unaction -forward; alias toggleaction use"
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
now while you may ask me what the hell does this script do, it just makes you walk without having to press w or uparrow (or whatever key) or building without pressing e.
The advantage that makes for me is that I can type while walking or building without making gaps where the e's should be... or just let me build while I'm eating my cookies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now what could easily be done is
bind mwheelup slot1 (with fastswitch)
leap, scroll up, bite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
add bind mwheelup slot3 to scroll down to leap again <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and that isn't a script of any kind imo...
as to the pistol...
bind you whole keypad to +attack and smash it down when you see a skulk ^^
It might take a couple of seconds longer for a comm to do each action without any shortcut keys. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would then support that scripting gives an unfair advantage, and therefore is a cheat.
I don't understand why people seem to think that cheating, if it's not too big of a cheat, is therefore okay. Where do you draw the line on 'wrong'? As long as it doesn't allow you to see through walls, you're okay with it? Come on guys, get some standards, some integrity! You keep bending, and the cheaters will keep pushing!
I also don't understand why the cheat sympathizers keep rationalizing these things away, regardless of the fact that Flayra has already declared it a cheat! I think that shows you that <b>you are already wrong.</b>
When will everyone finally admit scripts like these are cheating? Will you finally admit scripts are generally wrong when they play the game for you? Is that when they cross the line?
Moon, let me propose something.
Let's say I'm an experienced veteran. I am one of the top players in the world. I have a fully scripted, customized version of Natural Selection. I have edited all my models to be blank (without using the drawviewmodel exploit). I have edited out all background sounds. I have made multiple scripts to change weapons quickly. I've increased the sounds of footsteps so I can hear everyone better. I have increased the gamma and brightness so I don't have any shadows. I have perfected the bunny hop, allowing me to dodge most of your attacks.
You, however, do not. You may be good, but you're running the stock version of Natural Selection. You haven't even changed your name yet.
Are you now willing to state that these 'modifications' to my computer don't give much of an advantage? If left seperate, none of these seem to go beyond your personal specification of giving too much of an advantage. However, combined, they seem to be quite daunting, don't they? And in the right hands, they're even worse!
And who said that the players using these scripts actually wrote them?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tend to agree with you that given enough combinations of modifications you could indeed gain a significant advantage. However I could extend my principle to argue that _not all combinations_ give you a significant advantage. In the instance you mentioned I would agree that that seems way over the top. I would never play with such a combination because despite what some might think 'scripting' is not always done for the sole purpose of gaining an advantage.
Some thoughts here:
I can define two basic mindsets when scripting. Scripting for 'intuitive controls and atmosphere' versus scripting 'to blow away the competition'. Granted, the two instances are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I can honestly say though, when I use scripts it's not with the mindset of "owning" anybody, it is because I become frustrated with clunky-controls for the most part.
Consider this: when you play as an alien (or marine for that matter) you are linking finger-actions e.g. a mouse click to produce a certain action by the creature you are playing right ? So the more natural those finger-actions become the more natural you tend to move as the creature (as it would move in reality if you really were that creature). The more natural you can move as that creature the more the sense of "being there" becomes. That is why I script for the most part, because I want to feel as if I'm there. Setting gamma values to remove shadows etc. doesn't appeal to me at all because it would spoil the atmosphere of the game. If I developed some sort of super-script that killed anybody on the spot, I wouldn't use it because it would spoil the atmosphere of the game (i.e. I want to feel as if I'm in real danger). So ja, I guess what I'm saying here is that people will always rationalize things like scripting if for no other reason that it contributes to the level of immersion they experience.
i reckon players #5 and #6 are cheating. a script that automates the "+attack" just seems kinda wrong to me. however, i also think that a player with any skill would be able to pull off a better leap/bite combo manually (or using player #4's setup, say), than the 'cheating' players, #5 and #6. automating the attacks just isn't flexible enough.
that inflexibility could be seen as a counter to the supposed advantages of scripting. however it doesn't always work like that : take the case of the rapid-fire pistol script. it doesn't take very long at all to empty half a clip with an auto-fire script, so it's almost pure advantage for the user.
I agree. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yuppersz0rrahimotbhyo
Leap doesn't do as much damage as people claim, I was once facing a LA marine and used leap straight at his torso, he died but I could have bit him to death faster than leap killed him. Leaping at em and biting kills em fastest for sure.
I read somewhere that it does damage till you touch the ground... thats so not true, it probably does damage about 5-10 times or something. I havent tested just guessing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe you just need to learn how to use leap
As for the "pistol" script... I can shoot just as fast or faster by pushing the mouse1 key very rapidly. Faster clicking = Faster shooting. Are you gonna call me a cheater becuase Im able to smash my mouse button faster than you can?
Lets compare:
Lets say you have a race with a friend, You both have go carts.
Now he has a bigger engine than you, and he whoops your @$$. Are you gonna call him a cheater for having a bigger engine?
"OMG U CHEATER U HAVE A BIGGER ENGINE THAN ME U CHEATER OMG IM GONNA REPORT YOU AND BAN YOU FROM LIFE FOREVER!!!"
There is nothing wrong with scripts.... UNLESS they exploit or crash a server THATS when its over the line.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
alias "w1" "wait"
alias "w2" "w1;w1"
alias "w4" "w2;w2"
alias "w8" "w4;w4"
alias "w16" "w8;w8"
alias "leap" "use weapon_leap;w2;+jump;+attack;w1;-attack;-jump;w1;use weapon_bitegun"
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Firstly (here I go again) a sweeping statement of "scripts are cheating" or "scripts are for n00bs" isn't fair. My <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=16289' target='_blank'>BFCAS</a> is a script, but it doesn't give a player an incredible advantage. In TFC, a script which changes your grenades so that instead of holding down the key you press to arm and press to throw is the same sort of thing. These are just conveniences.
Now that that's out the way...
As for scripts like leap-and-bite, they're perfectly valid in my book because they don't do something which cannot ordinarily be performed. They might be cheap, but certainly not outlawed. A script which takes advantage of an engine exploit, or which drains your pistol clip faster than a human being can actually click - that kind of thing is out of line. However, it IS possible to leap and then bite very quickly. My slot1 is on my RMB; I can leap-and-bite effortlessly without a script. Scripting this action doesn't really make a lot of difference anyway.
In my book, scripting is okay when it's used to customise, to mould the game to your play style, and to make life easier. It's only not okay when it gives you a significant edge over non scripters. An auto bunnyhop script is over the line (but I'm biased, I hate bhopping anyway) but a leap and bite combo isn't.
While we're at it, scripts like these are generally unreliable. It's also much easier to adapt to a change in the situation if you're not using scripts. In TFC, I used to use a script to pull out my knife and start slashing when I held down RMB, then stop, put the knife away and pull out my last weapon when I let go. The thing is, it wasn't dependable enough for when I needed my knife in a critical situation. If I tapped it instead of holding, it would screw up some times and it was hard to coordinate and... anyway, my point is that it was EASIER to just move my slot1 to RMB. Scripts provide a small advantage, but sometimes they're restricting.
There are only two things that worry me as a marine when I hear the pitter patter of little skulk feet. One is the pitter patter of MANY skulk feet, and the other is the pitter patter of skulk feet when my guns are empty.
You have an auto-fire script (which btw: doesn't exist. OGC has that ability, but not scripting. On the other hand binding MWHEELUP for those "flick shots" eh... maybe) so sure the first skulk goes down in a burst of wildly aimed pistol rounds (which btw is rather pointless, you will die with or without that script. The marine obviously planted his crosshairs and opened fire...) So scratch one skulk. Now you have mr l33t script-tastic, who has wasted all 10 bullets, versus say me, who instead double tapped thrice and now has 4 bullets left in my pistol clip. So second skulk leaps into action.
Who has the pure advantage now? The man who unloaded a full clip (half into thin air) because he scroll-shot or whatever you decide to call it? Or me, who still has 4 rounds left to plug into that poor skulk?
There are more variables in NS than bullets you can place into the air per second. Having bullets to place into the air is very important too.
EDIT: ooo... while I'm here. This thread sucks. Because most people refuse to listen to either side. We have such brilliance as the blanket statement that "Scripts are for noobs." which appears to be all many people have read (it has been a long 7 pages), and also those who refuse to change their opinions.
This thread has been pointless every time it has been brought up in the past. I fail to see how I or anyone else could change people's perceptions. There will always be people who swear everyone but them has an advantage over them, imagined or not.
this girl has written a toggle script. she has set up one key near her movement keys to toggle between leap mode and bite mode. every time she presses the key it swaps her active weapon from one to the other. in the heat of battle, she may forget which one is active and bite when she meant to leap or vice versa.
leap/bite sequence: press toggle key, press fire, press toggle key again, press fire<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats me.,. lol.. i been caught.. tho i really gotta stop getting mixed up on my damn leap and bite. especially when escaping.. i seem to bite away intstead of leap away >.< ,, only happens sometimes..
the key bind-
bind "SHIFT" "slot3; wait; +attack; wait; -attack; slot1"
it wont work without the waits . i dunno if its exploiting, or cheating , i have to click to bite, thos the first time i click it dont work. but its just one key which is bound as an attack.. all the rest of my other spare keys are bound as commands or sounds.. especially my fav--- the chuckle >:)..
A cheat, is a cheat.
A script, is a script.
A keybind is a keybind.
Debate it all you want, they are different things. A cheat lets you do something in game you shouldn't be able to do. A script automates processes in game that theoretically you *could* do. A Keybind does ONE action for a keypress.
I feel that if flarya wanted the pistol to shoot like an automatic, that's how it would have been designed. People say "I'm just automating something I can do myself, I'm just making it easier, I'm just speeding it up". Well, if you are making it easier, then you are giving yourself an advantage over those that don't script. If you are speeding something up, you are giving an advantage to yourself, etc... etc...
Face it people, most of those that don't use scripts aren't people that "can't program their own". They are people that felt that the game comes with features and challenges. It is up to the player to PLAY the game WITH those challenges, not script around them. You don't see people patting each other on the back at tournaments saying "Nice script dude". Why? Because they are there to show their skills, not scripting prowess.
If you do it with skill, you are good. If you do it with a script, you are lame. I don't care how long you've been playing the game, if you aren't doing something on your own, you are being a lamer. If you can't do it on your own, practice.
Ravlen
<b>Player #4</b>
this guy has set up some aliases so that one key near his movement keys will switch to leap as the active weapon when it is held down, and then swap back to bite when the key is released. he can't get confused like Player #3 could - for him, key down = leap mode, key up = bite mode.
leap/bite sequence: press 'combo' key down, press fire, release 'combo' key, press fire
This player is over the line. Everything beforehand could be done with the Configuration screen.
About Flayra and scripting: I was taking the word of another user who was in this thread.
About me being thickheaded: Thank you. Soft mushy heads have leaky brains. Right and wrong. Nothing in between.
Remove them completly. Disable the abilty to use them. remove them from the game.
i think _anything_ that "makes it easy" is cheating.
that's it nothing more to say in this case
Remove them completly. Disable the abilty to use them. remove them from the game.
i think _anything_ that "makes it easy" is cheating.
that's it nothing more to say in this case <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vunderbar. Another one. How about actually reading the other argument before posting meaningless moosh like this? :/
1) the possibility to shoot only 1 bullet or not the whole clip
2) the possibility to stop shooting after he retreated
3) any second chance
if you have problems on clicking on only 1 button, bind both your mouse buttons to +attack and hit them all like mad when you see a skulk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As to the leap/bite script, it doesn't really <i>need</i> any perticular skill does it? just press the one key somewhere during your flight... with autoswitch... The advantages are obvious: you calculate when the bite is needed, if needed.
oh and no-one replied to my permanent +use/+forward script D: is THAT cheating? I hope you're kidding if it is... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> What advantage does it give you? only the advantage to type while walking (dangerous) or while building (or you can leave out the Es, or use leetspeak e's: "go to port 3ngin3 room pl3as3)
Remove them completly. Disable the abilty to use them. remove them from the game.
i think _anything_ that "makes it easy" is cheating.
that's it nothing more to say in this case<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sg1_stinky better remove that script in his NS directory called config.cfg if hes so antiscript...
Thats the script that makes gameplay possible (since it contains all the keybinds) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> !
I agree strongly with Darkwulf, automation scripts are a double edged sword. As for Cereal_KillR's constant move/ use script is not a problem in my opinion.
Flayra will decide what to do with scripting. You might recall that 1.0 had an anti-leap-script feature that killed you instantly if you switched weapons too fast. It was removed because it was discovered that some players can manually switch weapons as fast as a script would do it for them, and thus were getting killed. Make of that what you will.
Regardless, this thread is done.