Scripts & Cheating - Where Do U Draw The Line?
shader
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13247Members
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13247Members
<div class="IPBDescription">example - leap/bite</div> i'm interested in everyones idea of how much scripting is legit, and what is cheating.
in a few pub games i've played in australia recently, leap/bite combos (and leap/bite scipts) have been discussed a lot, usually a bunch of marines complaining that somone who is very effectively using this combo attack is cheating by using a "leap/bite script".
i'm gonna describe a few ficticious gamers and their ways to do a leap/bite combo, and i want to know everyone's opinion on who you think is legit and who you think is cheating.
<b>Player #1.</b>
this guy uses mousewheel or keys to cycle thru weapons. imho, his chances of doing an effective leap/bite combo are pretty slim unless he practices a hell of a lot. i'm assuming he has the hud_fastswitch cvar set to 1. otherwise add in an extra fire button press before each attack.
leap/bite sequence: press next/prev weapon key several times until leap is selected, press fire, press prev weapon key twice to get to bite, press fire
<b>Player #2</b>
this guy uses the default weapon slot<->number keys setup, or maybe even has bound "slot3" and "slot1" to two keys quite close to his movement keys. he can swap between leap mode and bite mode fairly quickly by using these keys. again, i'm assuming hud_fastswitch is set to 1 (same for all subsequent players)
leap/bite sequence: press leap key, press fire, press bite key, press fire
<b>Player #3</b>
this girl has written a toggle script. she has set up one key near her movement keys to toggle between leap mode and bite mode. every time she presses the key it swaps her active weapon from one to the other. in the heat of battle, she may forget which one is active and bite when she meant to leap or vice versa.
leap/bite sequence: press toggle key, press fire, press toggle key again, press fire
<b>Player #4</b>
this guy has set up some aliases so that one key near his movement keys will switch to leap as the active weapon when it is held down, and then swap back to bite when the key is released. he can't get confused like Player #3 could - for him, key down = leap mode, key up = bite mode.
leap/bite sequence: press 'combo' key down, press fire, release 'combo' key, press fire
<b>Player #5</b>
this guy takes his lead from #4 but says "why bother with the fire button?". he has a script that sets up a key near his movement keys to do this: when pressed, it switches to leap and sends off an attack command to do the leap; when released it switches back to bite, and sends off an attack command again to do a bite. this player could do extra leaps or extra bites by manually pressing the fire button after the 'combo' key was pressed or released respectively.
leap/bite sequence: press 'combo' key, release 'combo' key
<b>Player #6</b>
this guy has it fully automated. his script sets up one key to fire off a sequnce of commands that does all this: switch to leap, send attack command to do the leap, switch to bite, send an attack command and maintain it so he keeps biting until the key is released. this guy can't leap two or more times in a row like all the other players can - every leap is followed by one or more bites.
leap/bite sequence: press the key (and hold it down until u want to stop biting).
so what is acceptable and what isn't?
pls note that the same key layouts can also be used to do a blink/swipe combo as a fade - a deadly combination but not so commonly used as leap/bite.
in a few pub games i've played in australia recently, leap/bite combos (and leap/bite scipts) have been discussed a lot, usually a bunch of marines complaining that somone who is very effectively using this combo attack is cheating by using a "leap/bite script".
i'm gonna describe a few ficticious gamers and their ways to do a leap/bite combo, and i want to know everyone's opinion on who you think is legit and who you think is cheating.
<b>Player #1.</b>
this guy uses mousewheel or keys to cycle thru weapons. imho, his chances of doing an effective leap/bite combo are pretty slim unless he practices a hell of a lot. i'm assuming he has the hud_fastswitch cvar set to 1. otherwise add in an extra fire button press before each attack.
leap/bite sequence: press next/prev weapon key several times until leap is selected, press fire, press prev weapon key twice to get to bite, press fire
<b>Player #2</b>
this guy uses the default weapon slot<->number keys setup, or maybe even has bound "slot3" and "slot1" to two keys quite close to his movement keys. he can swap between leap mode and bite mode fairly quickly by using these keys. again, i'm assuming hud_fastswitch is set to 1 (same for all subsequent players)
leap/bite sequence: press leap key, press fire, press bite key, press fire
<b>Player #3</b>
this girl has written a toggle script. she has set up one key near her movement keys to toggle between leap mode and bite mode. every time she presses the key it swaps her active weapon from one to the other. in the heat of battle, she may forget which one is active and bite when she meant to leap or vice versa.
leap/bite sequence: press toggle key, press fire, press toggle key again, press fire
<b>Player #4</b>
this guy has set up some aliases so that one key near his movement keys will switch to leap as the active weapon when it is held down, and then swap back to bite when the key is released. he can't get confused like Player #3 could - for him, key down = leap mode, key up = bite mode.
leap/bite sequence: press 'combo' key down, press fire, release 'combo' key, press fire
<b>Player #5</b>
this guy takes his lead from #4 but says "why bother with the fire button?". he has a script that sets up a key near his movement keys to do this: when pressed, it switches to leap and sends off an attack command to do the leap; when released it switches back to bite, and sends off an attack command again to do a bite. this player could do extra leaps or extra bites by manually pressing the fire button after the 'combo' key was pressed or released respectively.
leap/bite sequence: press 'combo' key, release 'combo' key
<b>Player #6</b>
this guy has it fully automated. his script sets up one key to fire off a sequnce of commands that does all this: switch to leap, send attack command to do the leap, switch to bite, send an attack command and maintain it so he keeps biting until the key is released. this guy can't leap two or more times in a row like all the other players can - every leap is followed by one or more bites.
leap/bite sequence: press the key (and hold it down until u want to stop biting).
so what is acceptable and what isn't?
pls note that the same key layouts can also be used to do a blink/swipe combo as a fade - a deadly combination but not so commonly used as leap/bite.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I agree.
Myself, I use the player 2 method and I can't imagine it working any better. Any time advantage you gain with the script is just speeding up the switch while you are in midair, i.e. when it doesnt matter. Scripts give you much less control for minimal gains.
I agree. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same here.
Except, I would just to add something so this does not look like a spam post. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The game was previously coded, so that if you did have a script that would change your weapon too fast, it would kill you asap. This was changed (not removed) however, to only stop you from doing the attack (and no, +attack1;+attack1 will not help you). It was removed, because some people do have their hud_fastswitch set to 1 (on) and lag usually told the server the wrong thing, so it killed the player that was doing nothing wrong.
So... yea... umm...
Scripts are for n00bs. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Scripts aren't for n00bs, if you're a n00b you don't even know what a script is. Shesh, my CS config used to be bigger then the install ffs. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately everyone seems to have a different idea about just how much a certain factor will unbalance the game.
In this instance I don't see any significant advantage gained in a leap/bite combo.
In certain mods like vampire-slayer having a leap-script is pretty much required to play effectively. In fact I'd go as far to say that it would be unbalanced without that particular script.
Also, despite what many may feel about the use of a script, writing them is often a non-trivial task and certainly takes some knowledge to do properly.
Binding too much to one key can often prove to be more a hinderance than a help.
I'm guessing having to click alot as a commander is then considered a balancing factor?
Also, I fail to understand how scripting automates anything. No matter how good you are, no one is ever going to write a script that lets you do something perfectly. It is utterly impossible to write a script that will aim for you, or even bite at the right time. And I fear that is something you appear to be missing. If I had a leap/bite combo script, I am going to die with or without the script. Just because I don't have to reach for slot1 to finish the marine does not decide who lives and who dies. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I fail to understand how it even gives you an advantage. On the contrary, people with those glove-type perephrials are the people with a serious advantage. Using a plain keyboard and being able to initiate a simple attack combo (which IMO is hardly effective) is not worrying at all.
Anyway, what is there to script in NS? Short of a use toggle (my e key would prolly wear out if I didn't. :-X ) and commander mode scripts, I can't envision any real scripting in NS. A blink/slash script IMO is far more trouble than it is worth, considering the current state of blink. Other than those two, as a marine you die to superior skill, not scripting.
I don't like scripts. I hate them, in fact. People use bunnyhop scripts, i hate them. I hate them when they move faster than me as i am trying to bite them... and they are going backwards. People use silent crouching-bunnyhopping scripts. i hate them. People use pistol scripts, and i really focking hate them.
with the exception of the mouse <b>binds</b>, everything above i consider a cheat.
I was on ns_siege004. I was a marine with 40 health. A skulk leaps at me, and without touching the ground manages to bite me while in midleap...happened three other times.
irritating
but....does anyone know the command to toggle use?
Except for the HL tau cannon jump script, which performed a PERFECT tau jump every time, it simply could not be matched by humans.
Scripting can get timing down to a much smaller scale than humans can react at, therefore, it will give an advantage.
I had a script set up to do use attack3, then switch back to attack1 (IE leap/bite, blink/swipe, umbra/bite, charge/gore). But then flayra came along and said 'NO no scripts' so i dont use it anymore.
Since it hasn't been mentioned here yet, if anyone uses a leap/bite script, etc. they will notice that sometimes they just die for no reason when using it. Thats a little bit of code flayra added to counteract people who use scripts.
if u dont like something happening in the game, talk to the mod creators and get them to remove it like the noob u are, or even better just leave the server and let the real players injoy the mod.
I guess I'm like player 2. Agreed that scripting is quite pointless for evolving skills, but I do feel that the typical wasd control scheme is possibly disadvantaged here. I can't prove that because I've yet to use it for my common control scheme, but what do people who use a different config than standard feel about it?
In addition, I was down with hud_fastswitch 1 in CS, I reset NS to no fast switch. Enough practice and you can execute switches perfectly. Plus, what if you need to leap twice to get to a desired position to bite? No scripting can really do it.
Player decides to waste his time by going into the games forums and posting an incredibly long topic for no reason
I remember the old Quake TF days, when I had a quickswitch script... As a sniper, I'd hold down my "panic" button to switch to autofire and start firing, then let go to return to the "snipe" mode of the rifle... I'd go crazy with the super nailgun as a medic, then use a quickswitch to fire off a round or two from my shotgun...
Now, back then a script like that could give a major advantage... Now, with an animation delay when switching weapons, it's just as easy to bind a key to "lastinv" and do it yourself... That's what I do... Leap, lastinv (Bound to /), bite... Simple.
People who say scripts are cheats, are too lazy to bother to write them (anyone could do it, just takes some time)
A person with a 5 button mouse who doesn't know how to make scripts will call someone using scripts a cheater.
A person using scripts who doesn't own/can't afford a 5 button mouse calls the guy with the 5 button mouse a cheater.
Most scripts don't work properly, yes I use some sort of script, but I'd rather use a 5 button mouse with each ability/weapon bound to its own key. Scripts just refuse to work at times, I can easily make one for leap/switch to bite. Although in theory the same script should work for umbra/blink, it DOESN'T. I can't figure out why not.
Scripts are too much of a hassle, Im considering to just bind the different slots to keys close to my movement keys. I think that would infact work better.
I'd say the guy using a 5 button mouse is way more of a cheater than anyone using scripts.
You can argue all day, but the plain truth is that scripts cheapen games. It turns them into one sided battles where s/he who has the best scripts wins... not to mention totally buries the true newbies. We all know what kind of crapfest TFC turned into.
However! Not every script is bad - only the gameplay changing ones really ruin the experience for yourself and others. If I make some simple scripts that, say, let me tell my comm where I am and what the situation is, that's not a big deal. If I had a microphone, I'd be able to do it faster anyway. The ones that really ruin things for non-scripters are the fast firing, leap/bite yada yada, and the others that deliver inhumanly fast attack combos that nobody in their right mind would be able to accomplish flawlessly every time.
Do you really want to turn the rich, dark NS environment into a scriptfest, every alien and marine executing crazy-stupid attacks that would make an olympic gymnast wince? I don't think that's what the devs (and 95% of the players) have in mind. And when it really comes down to it - the devs have the last say.
I would love to see the fast toggle taken away and the original anti-script code put back into the game. I think it'd be a small price to pay for a bit more added comfort knowing that people can't lame you to death with a few crummy lines of script, skill nonwithstanding.
Also - please be careful and thoughtful before you frustratingly type to your killer: nice script homo. I've been accused of using scripts on a few occasions, all of them involving a special circumstance. There are some places in a few maps where aliens need to travel up long vents. It's possible to just sit down at one end of the vent, place your crosshair on the far side, and tap the enter key to fire (since you don't need to aim down a straight narrow vent). You can blast your whole pistol clip off in about 2 seconds, and it's a pretty nifty tactic when used right <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> If I had tried to click the mouse that fast (as if that were even possible =P), my aim would definitely be less than perfect. It's a trade-off, I guess. I don't really see it as cheating, though I'd like to know what others think... as long as it doesn't seem too off topic.
[sarcasm]Yes it's cheating cause I don't have the fire button bound to any keyboard key (I can't do that), lame cheater bah[/sarcasm]
Everyone is so damn sensitive to whatever in their opinion is an "exploit." Even going so far as to say: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it automates any action in the game other than the intended shortcuts made by the developers; than it is a cheat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about some common sense here. Seriously.
Bunny-hop scripts, rapid fire scripts = bad
Scripts that save you one or two keystrokes = WHY DO YOU CARE?
A leap-bite script reduces a two-keystroke maneuever into a 1/10 second faster one-keystroke maneuver. If you think that matters, please remove the stick from your butt and get back to me.
i respect your opinion when u say its cheating, ok so good you think its cheating why dont you do something about it besides crying about it, why dont you email the modders and tell em to fix it ? ?.. oh wait u just want ppl to stop cause u dont like it ooh your the king arnt you...
LOL, this thread is cool guys,keep up the convo, just dont get all angry and start flaming. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->! ( i neva did <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
If you learn to do (take leap/bite as an example) manually, then you will be much more versatile than someone who scripts it - they always bite at a certain time, whereas you can do another leap if needed and choose when to bite. I personally feel quite satisfied when someone calls me a scripter when I know I only use the default controls.
I guess it comes down to a question of conscience. Do you want to play it as the devs intended it, using skill to defeat your opponent or use that script to be perfect every time.
The worst script in ns might be the pistol rapid fire script. This is not a problem of scripting but of the way the pistol works. The pistol is a single shot weapon, so it should have a delay between shots (0,5 to 1 sec or so). If not you can just give it full auto or not only scripts can make it a full auto weapon but a mouse with an autofire button or just rapidly clicking the mousebutton can do it as well. And generaly even better since while a script runs you can not do anything else and you can not interrupt a script. So you have to "hardcode" how much shots you will do into the script and all the time it takes you to fire you can not do anything else.
Another possibly bad script is an antirecoil script. This has no effect in ns (cause ns has no recoil) and can be easily countered with simply disabling the command for moving down the view. Plus in games who HAVE recoil and do not have disabled this command it does not work very well cause recoil most of the time has a random component build in and you can only script a constant one.
Then some ppl mentioned a bunnyhopping script. This is one i highly doubt exists. The moves for bunnyhopping are to complex and even more importaint you have to do them over a long time and react to your environment (you do not want to run into the wall but around it). Two things which can not be done with scripts. And even if such a script would exist it would again not be a problem of scripting but one of bunnyhopping which will be disabled in 1.1 anyway.
I even heared ppl talk about aimbot scripts and such. There are some simple minded persons out there which take every single REAL cheat in this game, just put a script after it and blame hl scripting for it. To cheat in ns, you either have to exploit a bug (few are left which hopefully get fixed, bunnyhopping and pistols without delay for example) or install a third party program (amibots, wallhacks etc). With scripting you will VERY SOON reach your limits.
Last but not least let me comment the occasional "scripts are for noobs". While this is a great argument only for the stupidity of the poster because of the lack of differentiation there is a very little bit of truth in it. Most of the scripts (especially the more complex ones) are for all at least midskilled players more a hinderance than a help. But then there are some (generally the simple ones) which either are convenient or fit the personal playstyle more like cs weaponbuy scripts, ns commander scripts or individual weaponchange scripts.
How about removing the game and we get rid of all those stupid balancing, jp, fade and and whatsoever discussions as well?
Remove all scripting and the effectiveness of most commanders will go down ALOT, it's more or less essential for commanders to use some sort of scripts.
It might take a couple of seconds longer for a comm to do each action without any shortcut keys.
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i got my rmb bound to switch to slot 3 fire and switch back,i dunno teh details cause i didnt make <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
it is fairly unreliable and it seems to use up adrenalin quicker then if i selct 3 from the number keys and fire it normally
its only 2 short lines of text but i know it increases my general skulking skills by a fair bit
i think it would be almost impossible to fight ha/hmg without it
but tbh i do feel it is a bit of a cheat
i know there are alot of things i couldnt do half aswell if i didnt have it and if it was ever taken away i would probably end up playing alot more fade
however on alot of the servers i play on marines seem to be getting very good at side stepping leap and while i think its a little dubious nobody else seems to mind
in the scale of things its not a v big cheat but its certainly a replacement for skill and it deffinately lets me switch and attack faster than anybody could manually
also it doesnt seem to work for fade blink/slash or lerks umbra/bite i have no idea why so i do those manually <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->