Lerker Vs Jetpacker
lagger
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Outcomes?</div> Hello, after a few scrims my team has a tried some lerker vs jetpack 1v1ing / more everything being level 1 hive with level 3 carapace vs lvl 1 weapons and lvl 1 armor with lmg/jp. Now, what in you expierence is the predictible outcome for this match up? (in the hive with 3 dc's ie: healing) and if a marine was to just spam the hive was would the marines estimated time of death be? if at all.
Comments
.... and where are you getting this information from? The lerks inability to manuever in the air makes it a horrible counter to JP, but sadly its the best one aliens have
S
S <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you have any idea how hard it is to hit a jper? The lerk doesnt have enough juice to take him down. Especially since a comm will be there dropping him healpacks and ammo.
a) this scenario needs to be redefined and clearer
or
b) we have some people reading the board that need to reread, or learn to read
Kent,
Its LMG. Not HMG. The scenario did not involve an HMG.
Ackz,
Do you have any idea how hard it is to kill a Level 3 Carpaced Triple Defense Chamber Healing Lerk with a Level 1 LMG? For every claim you make that a JPer can be Mr. Uber In The Air, I can make one about Mr. Strafing God Lerk. And we all know how hard it is to hit things with the Spikes, you know, that whole aim the crosshairs AND push the mouse button. Whooo, thats tough stuff!
Also, no where above was it claimed the JPer had medpacks and ammo raining down on him. Funny how you assumed that, isnt it? How many? How often? Does he have to go pick them up, or is the comm. dumping them somewhere he can land safely at to pick them up. None of that is answered, and if you add the comm. in, we're really talking about 2 players vs. 1 player, arent we?
Scarface,
True. Along with Acid Rockets/Bile Bombs and Paralyze. I think the only breed that doesnt get some way to take on JPers is the Skulk (I guess one could do it with Leap, but thats beyond my skillz <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->).
S
Like I stated, I dont know from experince. I just dont see the JPer as some uber-gh0d pwnage class like apparently it is.
S
unupgraded: 143 hp
upgrade 3 : 250 hp
unupgraded lmg: 120 dmg/s
upgrade 3 lmg : 156 dmg/s
unupgraded hmg: 216 dmg/s
upgrade 3 hmg : 280 dmg/s
lerk
unupgraded: 86 hp
upgrade 3 : 214 hp
spikes : 90 dmg/s
So even an unupgraded lmg marine does 33,3% more damage per timeframe than a lerk and with similar armor upgrades take much more hits as well. Plus he is easier to fly, so in a 1on1 the jp marine should win allmost everytime. If you now take into consideration that a lerk costs 33 rp and a jp marine 9 rp the jp marine is quite powerful (a gap that the lerk can fill a bit when getting 2nd and 3rd hive).
Now, when do you ever see an LMG/JP going into a hive alone, hoping to accomplish something? Let's take the same scenario, but with HMG/jp: Mostly depends on what hive we're talking about. If the jetpacker is good and the hive is nice and open, he can just pump his clip into the hive while dodging, fall back a bit to greater distance while reloading, then come back and put the next clip into the hive, killing it. All it takes is two times 5 seconds of continuous fire, with 10 seconds of reloading in between. Attempting to kill the lerk is probably a bad idea, he still heals too fast and HMG is never 100% accurate, especially when the lerk is moving around a bit. If the marine is aiming for the lerk, it can even start flying a little to dodge better, since there is no direct threat to the hive.
No, the jetpacker doesn't actually kill the lerk, but killing the hive would be considered a victory, right?
Leap/bite is actually a decently effective way of taking down jetpackers, in my experience. Just leap at him and bite him in mid-flight. Doesn't work reliably of course, but it's better than biting up at him in vain or trying to climb the walls.
Edit: Flying up to bite the jetpacker as a lerk is a hopeless manuever, unless you're some kind of lerk god with perfect control. Or, if the jetpacker doesnt dodge, but I think the assumption was approximately equal skill. I hope the 1.1 changes make this easier to do for the lerk.
Each unupgraded LMG bullet does 2 hits on health and 2.1 hits on lvl3 carap armor. 1 sec worth of fire from the LMG will deal 20 hits on health and 21 hits on the armor. That means that the armor drops by about[1] 10 pts/sec from a continous LMG stream... assuming EVERY bullet from the LMG hits the lerk, it will be down about 50 armor (having 25 left) once the LMG needs to be reloaded. It only takes 1.5 sec to heal 50 hits to armor, so the LMG guy is out of luck. He CAN'T kill the lerk.
Now, assume lvl 1 weapons upgrades and its looking better. A lvl 1 lmg will do 3 hits on health and 2.31 hits on armor, so its 30/23, meaning that the armor will drop about 20 pts/sec, and once the armor is gone, the LMG will do 110 hits/sec on the lerk directly quickly finishing it off. Of course, that assumes the LMG guys hits with EVERY bullet... I wouldn't expect him to do that.
Ergo, having a lerk sitting on the hive taking out JP'er is a very good defense against early JP rushes. Of course, if the JP'ers go for the 2nd hive instead, things are more difficult. With only 15 hits/sec healing, its harder.
[1] Excess healing on health doesn't carry over into armor healing, so you lose some healing as you bump into max health. Exactly how much depends on the timing for the healing pulses - if they all heal at the same moment vs if they come completly unsynched. OTHO, expecting the JP'er to hit with every bullet when flying and fireing a whole clip in sustained fire is ... optimistic, to say the least. So 10 armor drain/sec is all in all a very, very good result for the marine.
The lerk does roughly 90 damage per second, assuming they all hit. The spikes have a much narrower cone of fire, and thus require more skill to aim than the LMG. Conservative estimates would put the damage at around 70 damage per second, because of the distance that lerks usually operate at. That means it would take about 3 seconds to kill a stationary LMG marine, if he's unupgraded. Over 3 if he has level 1 armor. Thus, if a LMG marine with no upgrades fought a lerk with carapace, both standing still, the marine would win. The Lerk cost 33 rp, the marine cost none, even for upgrades.
Considering the situation, we have a LMG marine with a jetpack and level 1 equipment. Anyone who has used both the lerk and a jetpack knows that a jetpack is far more maneuverable in the air. This <i>solidly</i> places the victory with the marine, who furthermore costs a lot less than the lerk.
By the by, defense chambers each heal 10 damage per second.
.... and where are you getting this information from? The lerks inability to manuever in the air makes it a horrible counter to JP, but sadly its the best one aliens have <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being a lerk. Hell, with 3 dcs <i>and a hive</i> healing it, the lerk barely needs to dodge.
Now, if we're talking mid air chomping in a large hive room rather than sniggering as you spike the poor sod down, I'd say probably neither. The jper won't be able to hit the lerk hard enough to kill it while it's getting healed like crazy, and unless the lerk is very good and the jper is very bad, the lerk will probably miss it's biting runs.
.... and where are you getting this information from? The lerks inability to manuever in the air makes it a horrible counter to JP, but sadly its the best one aliens have <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being a lerk. Hell, with 3 dcs <i>and a hive</i> healing it, the lerk barely needs to dodge.
Now, if we're talking mid air chomping in a large hive room rather than sniggering as you spike the poor sod down, I'd say probably neither. The jper won't be able to hit the lerk hard enough to kill it while it's getting healed like crazy, and unless the lerk is very good and the jper is very bad, the lerk will probably miss it's biting runs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, how about this situation: the lerk is Ackz and the jetpacker is NSPlayer. Ackz has a gorge healing him, another gorge webbing him, another lerk using umbra so he can save energy, and a fade guarding him for close encounters. Who will win?
I'm being stupidly sarcastic, but the point is that if the lerk doesn't have all these advantages you give him, he'll lose. Lerks are really easy to kill, even with carapace. Jetpackers are way harder to kill, especially if the aliens don't have fades and web, which is usually the case with a good jetpack rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lerker vs jetpack 1v1ing / more everything being level 1 hive with level 3 carapace vs lvl 1 weapons and lvl 1 armor with lmg/jp. Now, what in you expierence is the predictible outcome for this match up? (in the hive with 3 dc's ie: healing)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AcKz.. the jetpacker is alone and has lmg. He won't be killing the hive....
Lagger, mid-air chomping is almost impossible, unless the lerk has better control of his flight than the jetpacker, which means he'd have to be a lot more skilled.
Oh, and some people can't read.
Basic 1-hive lerk vs unupgraded JP/LMG was the scenario.
JP-er has the advantage of:
Better mobility
More damage-per-second (lmg vs spikes)
Lerk has:
Can soak up more damage
No range-modifier on weapon damage
100% accuracy on weapon
So basically, if the Lerk keeps its distance it should win. I've never lost against a JP-er as lerk, but then again they are usually forced to keep dodging acid while I just sit and shoot at them. I don't think they're very hard to hit. If the marine "rushes" the lerk he will probably win though.
Ps. Didn't mention adrenaline or jet-fuel since they sort of even eachother out.
[*snip*]
By the by, defense chambers each heal 10 damage per second. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh ... you know, you might want to do some testing before calling other peoples number wrong. If you did, you would find that the numbers are pretty solid.
First, basic armor rule is that x number of hits against armor only reduces the armor by x/2.
Second, damage against health drops fractions.
Thus, an unupgraded lmg vs a lvl 3 carapace does 2 hits vs health and 2.1 hits against armor. Far less than the 7 hits you imagine.
Also, defense chambers heal 10 hits, true, but they only heal once every two seconds.
The hive OTOH, does heal every second, for 20 hits.
However, not being afraid to admit I'm wrong when that turns out to be the case, the LMG does fire faster than 10/sec. In fact, it takes about 3.5 sec to empty a clip, which means about 15 shots/sec. I got the 10 shots/sec from the manual description of the HMG - twice the ROF of the LMG, and the HMG empties its clip in 7.5 sec (ie, 20 shots/sec). Oh well, I should have known not to trust a manual.