Lerker Vs Jetpacker

laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Outcomes?</div> Hello, after a few scrims my team has a tried some lerker vs jetpack 1v1ing / more everything being level 1 hive with level 3 carapace vs lvl 1 weapons and lvl 1 armor with lmg/jp. Now, what in you expierence is the predictible outcome for this match up? (in the hive with 3 dc's ie: healing) and if a marine was to just spam the hive was would the marines estimated time of death be? if at all.

Comments

  • NicatorNicator Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10829Members
    LMG/JP is a win for the lerk every time. If the lerk has healing as well, it should never die. HMG/JP depends on the situation, but again with healing the lerk should win. The marine might last long enough to get a clip off at the hive.
  • AcKzAcKz Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10079Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--Nicator+Feb 21 2003, 06:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nicator @ Feb 21 2003, 06:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LMG/JP is a win for the lerk every time. If the lerk has healing as well, it should never die. HMG/JP depends on the situation, but again with healing the lerk should win. The marine might last long enough to get a clip off at the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    .... and where are you getting this information from? The lerks inability to manuever in the air makes it a horrible counter to JP, but sadly its the best one aliens have
  • XCanXCan Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
    IMO a jp lmg should win, escpeially in a room with high ceiling. The jp hold space and shoots up like a rocket while the lerk need to flap the wings and lose half of its energy.... 10 pistol rounds wacks the lerk.
  • Sifo25Sifo25 Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12890Members
    Uhhh, with 3 DC's of healing ticking, the Lerk doesnt need to fly, right? Just strafe and spike the JPer silly. With Carapace at Level 3? I'd go with the Lerk for sure. Under a minute, unless the JPer was very, very good.

    S
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    A jetpacker should win hands down in any 1v1 competition with a lerk under the conditions you described. The only reason lerks are a threat in normal play is because of their ability to strike quickly and then get the heck out before they die. If a jetpacker has HMG and dies to a single lerk (even with umbra) then you most likely have a lerk with more skill than the jetpacker. HMG out-classes lerk, period.
  • AcKzAcKz Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10079Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--Sifo25+Feb 21 2003, 08:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sifo25 @ Feb 21 2003, 08:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uhhh, with 3 DC's of healing ticking, the Lerk doesnt need to fly, right? Just strafe and spike the JPer silly. With Carapace at Level 3? I'd go with the Lerk for sure. Under a minute, unless the JPer was very, very good.

    S <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Do you have any idea how hard it is to hit a jper? The lerk doesnt have enough juice to take him down. Especially since a comm will be there dropping him healpacks and ammo.
  • MrPinkMrPink Join Date: 2002-05-28 Member: 678Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but sadly its the best one aliens have <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Untrue. Webs can be used to completly seal marines off from area's, if used correctly.
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    Jetpack rushes, done right, end up with 3 or 4 jetpack HMG marines way before the aliens can get a second hive up. I have seen it done 7 minutes after the round start on a pub. I imagine it is much faster in clan play. You can't factor webs into the equation. Or adrenaline, or umbra.
  • Sifo25Sifo25 Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12890Members
    edited February 2003
    Ok, there is a problem here. Either:

    a) this scenario needs to be redefined and clearer

    or

    b) we have some people reading the board that need to reread, or learn to read

    Kent,

    Its LMG. Not HMG. The scenario did not involve an HMG.

    Ackz,

    Do you have any idea how hard it is to kill a Level 3 Carpaced Triple Defense Chamber Healing Lerk with a Level 1 LMG? For every claim you make that a JPer can be Mr. Uber In The Air, I can make one about Mr. Strafing God Lerk. And we all know how hard it is to hit things with the Spikes, you know, that whole aim the crosshairs AND push the mouse button. Whooo, thats tough stuff!

    Also, no where above was it claimed the JPer had medpacks and ammo raining down on him. Funny how you assumed that, isnt it? How many? How often? Does he have to go pick them up, or is the comm. dumping them somewhere he can land safely at to pick them up. None of that is answered, and if you add the comm. in, we're really talking about 2 players vs. 1 player, arent we?

    Scarface,

    True. Along with Acid Rockets/Bile Bombs and Paralyze. I think the only breed that doesnt get some way to take on JPers is the Skulk (I guess one could do it with Leap, but thats beyond my skillz <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->).

    S
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    The scenario was a LMG jetpack with level 1 bullets and armor versus a lerk with level 3 carapace. In a magical arena dimension where there are no other factors, including medpacks and/or healing, the jetpacker should win due to maneuverability and the ability to sustain more damage. In a somewhat less fictional game, if these two faced off alone, with a comm healing the jetpacker and 3 defense towers healing the lerk (this last bit almost NEVER happens...), the jetpacker should still be able to kill or chase off the lerk. Of course the aiming ability of each party comes in to factor.
  • FlatlineUTDFlatlineUTD Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
    I see more JPers taken out by Skulks than I do by Lerks. They just climb up the walls, wait until he gets near, then start chomping away.
  • ChurchChurch Meatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2 Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11646Members, Constellation
    off topic: Flatline, you still haven't replied yet with the password to your private server.
  • Sifo25Sifo25 Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12890Members
    I dont Lerk a ton, to be honest, and I defintely dont take on JPers as a Lerk, mostly I'm either taking out farms or working with a fade an Umbra (or even rarer, spamming spore). But I thought Spike was hitscan. If it is indeed hitscan, then its not so much a factor of 'aim' but a factor of the JPers dodging. So... on equal footing, the JPer goes down?

    Like I stated, I dont know from experince. I just dont see the JPer as some uber-gh0d pwnage class like apparently it is.

    S
  • BeetlejuiceBeetlejuice Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7542Members
    jp marine
    unupgraded: 143 hp
    upgrade 3 : 250 hp

    unupgraded lmg: 120 dmg/s
    upgrade 3 lmg : 156 dmg/s

    unupgraded hmg: 216 dmg/s
    upgrade 3 hmg : 280 dmg/s


    lerk
    unupgraded: 86 hp
    upgrade 3 : 214 hp

    spikes : 90 dmg/s

    So even an unupgraded lmg marine does 33,3% more damage per timeframe than a lerk and with similar armor upgrades take much more hits as well. Plus he is easier to fly, so in a 1on1 the jp marine should win allmost everytime. If you now take into consideration that a lerk costs 33 rp and a jp marine 9 rp the jp marine is quite powerful (a gap that the lerk can fill a bit when getting 2nd and 3rd hive).
  • ArdescoArdesco Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7831Members
    edited February 2003
    It all depends on what hive the aliens have. Hives like feedwater make it extremely difficult for jetpackers to kill a hive, while refinery hive in ns_bast makes it practically impossible for anything for of a lerk (with 1 hive) to hit a jper.
  • The_SpectreThe_Spectre Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9212Members
    edited February 2003
    The scenario given, in a hive, with 3 D chambers, vs one lmg/jp: There is no way the lerk can die. The healing is just too fast. All the lerk has to do is sidestrafe on the ground near the hive and D chambers, and keep spiking. The marine can die, the lerk can't, lerk wins by default.

    Now, when do you ever see an LMG/JP going into a hive alone, hoping to accomplish something? Let's take the same scenario, but with HMG/jp: Mostly depends on what hive we're talking about. If the jetpacker is good and the hive is nice and open, he can just pump his clip into the hive while dodging, fall back a bit to greater distance while reloading, then come back and put the next clip into the hive, killing it. All it takes is two times 5 seconds of continuous fire, with 10 seconds of reloading in between. Attempting to kill the lerk is probably a bad idea, he still heals too fast and HMG is never 100% accurate, especially when the lerk is moving around a bit. If the marine is aiming for the lerk, it can even start flying a little to dodge better, since there is no direct threat to the hive.
    No, the jetpacker doesn't actually kill the lerk, but killing the hive would be considered a victory, right?

    Leap/bite is actually a decently effective way of taking down jetpackers, in my experience. Just leap at him and bite him in mid-flight. Doesn't work reliably of course, but it's better than biting up at him in vain or trying to climb the walls.

    Edit: Flying up to bite the jetpacker as a lerk is a hopeless manuever, unless you're some kind of lerk god with perfect control. Or, if the jetpacker doesnt dodge, but I think the assumption was approximately equal skill. I hope the 1.1 changes make this easier to do for the lerk.
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Members
    if only we could have all 3 chamber types but only 1 upgrade... :F
  • AcKzAcKz Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10079Banned
    why would a marine rush a lerk with 3dc and a hive under him? obviously hed go for the hive
  • Error404Error404 Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9353Members
    The Lerk could just sit under the hive and on top of the DCs and just spike the jetpacker.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    Damage/sec doesn't work. Health damage is kept in whole numbers, dropping damage fractions. A lerk takes 30 LMG hits to kill. If the lerk is sitting on the hive (20hits/sec) with three DC's (each 5/sec) in addition, the lerk is healing 35 hits/sec.

    Each unupgraded LMG bullet does 2 hits on health and 2.1 hits on lvl3 carap armor. 1 sec worth of fire from the LMG will deal 20 hits on health and 21 hits on the armor. That means that the armor drops by about[1] 10 pts/sec from a continous LMG stream... assuming EVERY bullet from the LMG hits the lerk, it will be down about 50 armor (having 25 left) once the LMG needs to be reloaded. It only takes 1.5 sec to heal 50 hits to armor, so the LMG guy is out of luck. He CAN'T kill the lerk.

    Now, assume lvl 1 weapons upgrades and its looking better. A lvl 1 lmg will do 3 hits on health and 2.31 hits on armor, so its 30/23, meaning that the armor will drop about 20 pts/sec, and once the armor is gone, the LMG will do 110 hits/sec on the lerk directly quickly finishing it off. Of course, that assumes the LMG guys hits with EVERY bullet... I wouldn't expect him to do that.

    Ergo, having a lerk sitting on the hive taking out JP'er is a very good defense against early JP rushes. Of course, if the JP'ers go for the 2nd hive instead, things are more difficult. With only 15 hits/sec healing, its harder.

    [1] Excess healing on health doesn't carry over into armor healing, so you lose some healing as you bump into max health. Exactly how much depends on the timing for the healing pulses - if they all heal at the same moment vs if they come completly unsynched. OTHO, expecting the JP'er to hit with every bullet when flying and fireing a whole clip in sustained fire is ... optimistic, to say the least. So 10 armor drain/sec is all in all a very, very good result for the marine.
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    edited February 2003
    Your numbers are completely wrong. An unupgraded LMG does 10 damage per bullet, and fires about 12 bullets a second. A lerk does 18 damage per spike, and fires about 5 per second. An unupgraded lmg would do 7 damage per bullet to a carapace lerk, so even conservative estimates would put unupgraded LMG damage to a lerk at around 60 damage/sec. That would kill a carapace lerk in 2 seconds.

    The lerk does roughly 90 damage per second, assuming they all hit. The spikes have a much narrower cone of fire, and thus require more skill to aim than the LMG. Conservative estimates would put the damage at around 70 damage per second, because of the distance that lerks usually operate at. That means it would take about 3 seconds to kill a stationary LMG marine, if he's unupgraded. Over 3 if he has level 1 armor. Thus, if a LMG marine with no upgrades fought a lerk with carapace, both standing still, the marine would win. The Lerk cost 33 rp, the marine cost none, even for upgrades.

    Considering the situation, we have a LMG marine with a jetpack and level 1 equipment. Anyone who has used both the lerk and a jetpack knows that a jetpack is far more maneuverable in the air. This <i>solidly</i> places the victory with the marine, who furthermore costs a lot less than the lerk.

    By the by, defense chambers each heal 10 damage per second.
  • laggerlagger Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1805Members
    edited February 2003
    Umm, let me be somewhat clearer on this situation <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. I'm talking about mid flight chomping here... lets.. just put this situation in Maint on eclipse. 2 marines with jetpacks come from top ledge with lmg's / welders in a crazy attempt to kill you hive since your team sucks. Now, what proabablity would you have of mid-air chomping 1 marine or even both and what strats would you use to get near them for the comp. (Has own ideas but wants to hear yours 1st) The mid-air chomp is needed incase they do get hmg's because the spike attack does not kill them fast enough before they can take your hive.
  • NicatorNicator Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10829Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--AcKz+Feb 21 2003, 07:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AcKz @ Feb 21 2003, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nicator+Feb 21 2003, 06:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nicator @ Feb 21 2003, 06:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LMG/JP is a win for the lerk every time.  If the lerk has healing as well, it should never die.  HMG/JP depends on the situation, but again with healing the lerk should win.  The marine might last long enough to get a clip off at the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    .... and where are you getting this information from? The lerks inability to manuever in the air makes it a horrible counter to JP, but sadly its the best one aliens have <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Being a lerk. Hell, with 3 dcs <i>and a hive</i> healing it, the lerk barely needs to dodge.

    Now, if we're talking mid air chomping in a large hive room rather than sniggering as you spike the poor sod down, I'd say probably neither. The jper won't be able to hit the lerk hard enough to kill it while it's getting healed like crazy, and unless the lerk is very good and the jper is very bad, the lerk will probably miss it's biting runs.
  • ekentekent Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7801Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Nicator+Feb 22 2003, 07:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nicator @ Feb 22 2003, 07:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AcKz+Feb 21 2003, 07:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AcKz @ Feb 21 2003, 07:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nicator+Feb 21 2003, 06:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nicator @ Feb 21 2003, 06:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LMG/JP is a win for the lerk every time.  If the lerk has healing as well, it should never die.  HMG/JP depends on the situation, but again with healing the lerk should win.  The marine might last long enough to get a clip off at the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    .... and where are you getting this information from? The lerks inability to manuever in the air makes it a horrible counter to JP, but sadly its the best one aliens have <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Being a lerk. Hell, with 3 dcs <i>and a hive</i> healing it, the lerk barely needs to dodge.

    Now, if we're talking mid air chomping in a large hive room rather than sniggering as you spike the poor sod down, I'd say probably neither. The jper won't be able to hit the lerk hard enough to kill it while it's getting healed like crazy, and unless the lerk is very good and the jper is very bad, the lerk will probably miss it's biting runs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, how about this situation: the lerk is Ackz and the jetpacker is NSPlayer. Ackz has a gorge healing him, another gorge webbing him, another lerk using umbra so he can save energy, and a fade guarding him for close encounters. Who will win?

    I'm being stupidly sarcastic, but the point is that if the lerk doesn't have all these advantages you give him, he'll lose. Lerks are really easy to kill, even with carapace. Jetpackers are way harder to kill, especially if the aliens don't have fades and web, which is usually the case with a good jetpack rush.
  • The_SpectreThe_Spectre Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9212Members
    (e)kent: Here is a quote from the original post, which everyone but you and AcKz seem to have read properly:
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lerker vs jetpack 1v1ing / more everything being level 1 hive with level 3 carapace vs lvl 1 weapons and lvl 1 armor with lmg/jp. Now, what in you expierence is the predictible outcome for this match up? (in the hive with 3 dc's ie: healing)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    AcKz.. the jetpacker is alone and has lmg. He won't be killing the hive....

    Lagger, mid-air chomping is almost impossible, unless the lerk has better control of his flight than the jetpacker, which means he'd have to be a lot more skilled.
  • StoneburgStoneburg Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
    Hmm.. Spectre is awake, yet the server is empty. This is just wrong and must be corrected. I'll be on IRC seeing if I can get a game going. (gamesnet, #cofr)

    Oh, and some people can't read.

    Basic 1-hive lerk vs unupgraded JP/LMG was the scenario.

    JP-er has the advantage of:

    Better mobility
    More damage-per-second (lmg vs spikes)

    Lerk has:

    Can soak up more damage
    No range-modifier on weapon damage
    100% accuracy on weapon


    So basically, if the Lerk keeps its distance it should win. I've never lost against a JP-er as lerk, but then again they are usually forced to keep dodging acid while I just sit and shoot at them. I don't think they're very hard to hit. If the marine "rushes" the lerk he will probably win though.

    Ps. Didn't mention adrenaline or jet-fuel since they sort of even eachother out.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--QuoteBegin--(e)kent+Feb 21 2003, 10:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((e)kent @ Feb 21 2003, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your numbers are completely wrong. An unupgraded LMG does 10 damage per bullet, and fires about 12 bullets a second. A lerk does 18 damage per spike, and fires about 5 per second. An unupgraded lmg would do 7 damage per bullet to a carapace lerk, so even conservative estimates would put unupgraded LMG damage to a lerk at around 60 damage/sec. That would kill a carapace lerk in 2 seconds.

    [*snip*]

    By the by, defense chambers each heal 10 damage per second. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Heh ... you know, you might want to do some testing before calling other peoples number wrong. If you did, you would find that the numbers are pretty solid.

    First, basic armor rule is that x number of hits against armor only reduces the armor by x/2.

    Second, damage against health drops fractions.

    Thus, an unupgraded lmg vs a lvl 3 carapace does 2 hits vs health and 2.1 hits against armor. Far less than the 7 hits you imagine.

    Also, defense chambers heal 10 hits, true, but they only heal once every two seconds.

    The hive OTOH, does heal every second, for 20 hits.

    However, not being afraid to admit I'm wrong when that turns out to be the case, the LMG does fire faster than 10/sec. In fact, it takes about 3.5 sec to empty a clip, which means about 15 shots/sec. I got the 10 shots/sec from the manual description of the HMG - twice the ROF of the LMG, and the HMG empties its clip in 7.5 sec (ie, 20 shots/sec). Oh well, I should have known not to trust a manual.
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