Will Ns Get A Cs-size Following?
Rayonic
Join Date: 2003-01-14 Member: 12274Members
Join Date: 2003-01-14 Member: 12274Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Post your opinions and reasons...</div> Do you think Natural Selection will ever get the kind of massive following that Counter-Strike has? I don't want to see posts about how lame CS is and how we don't want all those "llamas" anyway. I just want to know, do you think NS can get such a stupendously massive following?
I'll post my view now: I don't think it'll happen. NS is too complex. Yes, I know it's streamlined and actually easy to play, but it's too complex for your average CS player. I loaded up CS and asked around - the handful that had tried NS found it "boring" and "repetitive."
Any thoughts?
I'll post my view now: I don't think it'll happen. NS is too complex. Yes, I know it's streamlined and actually easy to play, but it's too complex for your average CS player. I loaded up CS and asked around - the handful that had tried NS found it "boring" and "repetitive."
Any thoughts?
Comments
CS, a game where all you do it run to 1-2 bomb sites and plant a bomb, or protect a few hostages. In the same place. Every game. Day in, day out. And you call NS repetetive? Blows my mind.
Ravlen
No, morons will stay attracted to CS.
Those with a modicum of brain-meat will prefer NS.
Sadly, the morons outnumber those with brain-meat.
Happily, some of those morons will grow brain-meat, and trickle over, likely starting out as incorrigible rambos until they get a clue.
Sadly, morons breed faster.. so there'll never be a shortage.
It wholly deserves it, but CS is just so easy to pick up and play. NS is hard to do that, unless you're a generally intelligent, cooperative person. FPS games do <i>not</i> attract these people in droves, as there are only a number of them that post on these forums and chat in IRC.
A screwed up gorge, a misbuilt structure, all can spell death in NS. In CS, you can shoot a bullet or two off or throw your grenade at the wrong time and not get setback. This factor of CS is a very good thing, it's forgiving to newbies. They don't get frustrated with the game like many people do with NS when your team isn't winning or you're not doing good.
I'll be surprised if NS does, but very pleased.
<b>edit:</b> Talesin managed to sum up my post very well. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
It would take one helluva game (which NS is!) and a breach in the faith of CS players around the world to knock it off the top rung. No matter what happens, CS will be remembered as a milestone in FPS gaming...that cannot be ignored.
CS can't be included in the same category as the other FPSs, Quake 3, Tribes 2, Unreal, BF1942 etc. This is because a massive proportion of CS players have never so much as heard of other games, let alone played them. They think CS is cool purely because you get to frag people. I bet a good percentage wouldn't even realise that it's actually a mod for HL, much less that there are OTHER mods. These people aren't games, they're CS ****. How CS achieved such dominance is beyond me, but I know it's through no merit of its own (let's face it. CS HAS no merits.)
However, for those who play DoD, TFC, FireArms, DMC, the Quakes etc. etc. etc, the actual gamers, yes I believe that NS can achieve dominance. It's innovative, it's skill-based rather than "who's got the biggest gun, or pops around the corner first". It's got enough of the old and enough of the new to please everyone. It's only the third game I've actually witnessed regular teamwork in, but on far greater scale. It's the ONLY game to successfully pull of a Commander mode in a multiplayer game. It's got two sides which are not mirror images of each other and yet are balanced. What's more, it's as critically acclaimed as other innovative, awesome games (such as Sacrifice, Thief, NetStorm) but unlike those games it actually has a loyal, sizable player base.
NS has INCREDIBLE potential in its own circle. But let's face it, nothing's going convince the CS **** that there is life outside CS.
[edit] /me raises an eyebrow at the filter.
Read the stars as "highly promiscous woman", begins with a "w"[/edit]
sad but true <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
the incredible simplicity of the gameplay, the nonexistant learning curve, and the twitch reflexes are what made it so popular.
NS is... well... kinda different <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Different games attract different gamers, CS attracts younger, more brash gamers because it's not that hard to pick up, and it's definantly addictive. NS requires more thought, and team play, and let's face the fact that, while teamplay exists in CS, there are more rambo's than teamplayers.
On the other hand, I believe NS has lended a hand in helping me and a few freinds play better in CS, I've dubbed this: The NS factor.
Our team play has increased considerably, and our strategies seem to unfold before our very eyes.
There's always a plus side to lower-populated games, sometimes they make you better at games that you thought there was nothing more to learn about.
NS, I do believe however, will establish a large following, eventually, but not close to that of CS.
Most CS players aren't even gamers, and most of them go to cybercafes suggesting they don't really want to invest in a good PC and connection. NS will never reach that popularity simply because a) most cybercafes don't host it, b) most LAN parties don't even host it, c) too hard to pick up, might change if Flayra puts in a tutorial map, but not likely.
Well, in a nutshell, the reason NS will never gain that kind of popularity is the same reason why the Sims and sports games are dominating the sales charts.
CS is a great game. NS is also a great game. To get back to the original question, no, I do not think that NS will get as much playtime as CS anytime soon. It would really help if Valve offered to release NS as a stand-alone, but seeing as they haven't even done that with DoD (which has over twice as many players as NS), I don't foresee that happening for a long time.
The major problem is that NS is just too complex. It's IMPOSSIBLE to play it any other way. Take WarCraft, for example - you can go nuts, learning all the strats and unit stats and spell effects and building times and yada yada yada - or you can never learn a thing and still have fun. Natural Selection is more of a "do or die" style of gameplay. If you're not doing the right thing in the right place, you and your team and going to suffer and suffer and suffer.
Some people are just attracted to that kind of intensity, but it has nothing at all to do with being smart (as some people above have claimed). There are plenty of people that struggle with the strategy aspects of the game yet still grap the meaning of the game. Heck, a lot of regulars on CiS can't even spell half the words in a sentence right and sound like they're constantly drunk over the voice comm, but they still love the game <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, it'd be nice if more people had the opportunity to discover Natural Selection, but it's not really something I'm worried about.
However, on an intelligence scale, NS FAR outnumbers the intelligence factor found in the CS Community, at least Three to One. Even with our random NSPlayers, and Rambos, we still hold the majority of intellect, and people with more than 2 brain cells. NS requires at least some semblence of intelligence higher than a simple single celled organism, CS is basically, rush to point A or Point B, if nobody at A go to B, and vice versa. Oh and maybe shoot a bit inbetween. NS is more like, (Depending on your orders) Run to point A build object F, defend object untill backup arrives, all move on to point C, build object G and then H, I, J. Defend area, and make smart use of resources. In CS is more like, Do I want a Submachine gun, or rifle? in NS its, Will my marine stay alive long enough if I give him this equipment, or should I save for more defence.
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Whoa did you like totally roll on the floor laughing?
Basically these times will be defined as the "CS ages" Just how DooM, and Quake had thier time. Eventually it will pass, but can i see this happening in the next 5 years? Meh we will have to see. As computer become cheaper and cheaper people will begin to actually be able to play games that arent 4 years old. Hopefully the beautiful UT2k3 mods will convert some people.
1) Easy to pickup and play. As said before, the learning curve on CS is minimal. Even if you dont know the maps, you can just follow everyone else around. While squad tactics and overall strategies do play a role, they make a far less significant impact on the outcome of a game as they do in NS.
2) Short game duration. You can hop onto a CS server for 20 minutes, get 8-10 rounds in, and be happy. You really cant enjoy NS unless you've got a good hour or more to spend.
3) Level playing field of skill. CS has (by intention or coincidence) one of the largest luck factors in any game i've played. The bullet spread, coupled with headshots, means that even if you really cant dm well, you'll still probably get some kills. I played CS since, hoo boy, uh, beta 7? (cant remember really) and as time progressed it was evident that i got worse and worse, not because i was actually playing worse, but because everything became more luck dependant than skill dependant. (Not to say a non-skilled CSer is on par with a newbie, there is a huge difference, but no matter how good you are you will inevitably get waxed by the stray headshot)
4) <b>Built in chat room. I think this is the biggest factor.</b> In CS when you die, you get to sit around and talk with all the other dead people for a few minutes. You can comment on how the match is going, complement/insult the guy that capped you, laugh at a funny moment, or just talk about anything. This 'down time' is REQUIRED. Its inevitable when you play CS. You are forced to engage in, or atleast listen to, conversation with other people. This, IMO, is really why CS is so popular.
Game developers think that people just want to get back into the action faster, so they make respawning in mid round (DoD, TFC, NS, etc etc) which gives people more play time, but REMOVES this social interaction. Sure, while the round is going on, you <i>could</i> talk about stuff, but people will get **** at you for hogging the voice comm, or spamming the text with irrelevant information, and you will be distracted. Practically every FPS game has this 'you gotta concentrate or you die and your team loses' attitude, which makes for intense gaming, but removes the social interaction. CS has both, and THAT is why its #1.
I like how in DoD you talk in mid-game, just like NS or TFC. But it's all dependant on your style of playing really, and personal preferences.
The DoD "para" style (aka day of counterstrike or whatever the naysayers call it) is fun as hell, imo. I like playing on a round-based level, I feel it improves your effectiveness per life, so when you go back to regular dod_ style maps you could be more effective against the enemy.
But NS still takes the cake. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS is probs the best thing to happen to HL in a long long time. wonder what 1.1 will bring <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Rue.
edit: Kilmster is almost 100% corect
Even my cousin had a problem with this, and he's not a stupid guy. I had to find many ways to re-phrase "CS is built on top of HL."
Ergo, I would suppose most of the people who play CS likely don't know the variety that is out there, or don't think they have the prerequisite HL, or are too technically timid to install it themselves... Or a combination.
NS probably won't knock down CS... it's plugged by a "Real Game Publisher" (By which I mean "One that makes and sells boxes.") and it also is living off of it's own ubiquity.
I would also venture that neither CS nor NS are better than the other when it comes to 'having fun while losing'.
God I hope not! It has been proven: <b>Popularity attracts stupidity</b>.
(i.e. CS)
Oh, and I wanted to keep this post short and to the point, but I must add that I felt Typhon's reasons for CS being popular are very accurate. Great analysis. However, I don't think #4 is as big a factor as you think. I hardly know any CS players that actually chat during this time. Usually they spend it saying "Come on! Hurry up!" to themselves. Plus there are many other mods that do this anyway.
CS used to be fun - back in the betas before it got insanely popular. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
/me misses the old days.
CS is supposedly a team-based game, but you rarely see much actual teamwork going on. To most CSers, "team-mate" translates as "non-target", and that's about it. CS does not require any sort of teamwork at all. If CS forced you to work as a team, it could be almost as interesting as NS. Most CS games dissolve instantly into a twenty second deathmatch in the middle of the map. Hostages/bombs are often only considered if you happen to stumble onto them while looking for something to shoot at, or because that's where the enemy is likely to be hanging out. But, it is good fun.
Since NS came out, I haven't played one game of CS, as the games are much more interesting and satisfying.
I don't think NS will ever be as popular as the straightforward shooters, simply because it takes time to learn and lots of people can't be bothered. They want to jump in and start blasting things with huge weapons, and if that's what they like they will drop out of NS before realising how good it can be.
cs can be good because u can hop on for a few rounds.. but playing on large servers like 32 person gets anoying with all the camping and staying at spawn etc..
NS will never have as many ppl as CS tho i wish it would... already in my school... only 5 ppl at most play it out of 800 .... of those 800 at least 100 play CS..... so yeah.... perhaps less than 100 but yeah i duno...
overall... mods like DoD are quite popular already and dont have as many ppl as CS but have quite a good community...
overall... my CS skilz seem to be going down the drain because im too impatient now.. which is why i prefer games like NS and DoD now where u respawn and get into the action rite away...
yes NS seems a waste if u arent able to finish a round ebcasue all that work for nothing.... whereas in CS wut u do in that "3-5 minutes" in pub is wut matters
I mean, this really is a mystery to me. It makes me even wonder if Counter-Strike 2 will even make a dent in it's following. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> That's a long way off, though. You've got to remember that CS:Condition Zero is a single player-only game, and that the actual CS2 is a long way off.
Like many strategy games for PC, NS has a high learning curve, a rewarding but none the less steep slope to climb up. You have to think differently for starters, since picking up a gun and going off into A direction yields nothing. The maps are intricate and therefore hard to master. The strategic layer complicates matters further for both marine and alien sides. Me, soon packing 20 years as gaming person, had to scrach my head a bit when I first played NS. I am sure much less jaded players are confounded at first.
But NS do not need a CS-liek following to be a succes. Merely double the numbers that play now and we will have a nice population to nuture talent and keep people playing.
Many people just want to join a game, shoot and have fun. A friend said "I dont play a game, where I have to read the manual!" lol
That is funny, but kinda sad. I wonder if those kind of people would even go through an in-game tutorial. I don't get out much, is this kind of manual-disregarding widespread? It's a shame, since NS has one of the better manuals I've read.
Is there any way to strand all these people on desert islands, with nothing but a PC and a Master of Orion 3 box set? That'll teach them some patience. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
There's a lot of flaming of CS and what it has become. But back in Beta 1 (T's had short sleeves, but otherwise they looked like CT's) I could tell what a great game it could become. I tried hard to get my clanmates who were playing TFC all the time to try it out. I'm glad CS did become successful.
But back to the point, in looking at how to increase the player base of NS, I think a better analysis would be to look at how Starcraft grew so large.
Oh, and the complexity comparison doesn't hold between CS and NS, since most RTS's are as complicated if not more so than NS. How do other complicated RTS's become so popular? [/rhetorical]
typhon i agree that chat room is definetely a big factor in making the game fun. there arent very many games that has a "if u die, wait for one team to win", which is probably why cs has so much popularity.