<!--QuoteBegin--Alien Bob+Feb 19 2003, 05:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alien Bob @ Feb 19 2003, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To most CSers, "team-mate" translates as "non-target", and that's about it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL...thats a good quote..i may add it to my sig.
if you want a fun team experience in CS, have about 5 people using only knives and grenades VS 1 player using anything
one thing I like in CS better than NS is that I always get SOME satisfaction out of the rounds. Every game lost in NS feels like a huge disappointment. An hour gone, a lot of hard work done, with zero result and little recognition of accomplishment.
If I was truly intelligent, I would stop playing all games, (NS and BF1942). And focus on making more money, but no these dang games make it too easy to say to myself at 3 pm "hey why dont I get a six-pack and head home, enough of this driving in snow crapola looking for customers and doing service and go home and crank up the surround sound and blast stuff to heck while using my pea sized brainal thingy, staring at my 21" monitor thats slowly making me blind, BLIND I say, muhahahha.
<!--QuoteBegin--sender+Feb 19 2003, 05:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sender @ Feb 19 2003, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ns is a great game, but it's not one that you can play for 5 minutes and then go do something else.
I'll bet alot of CS'ers say "ok I'll just frag a few people and then do my homework". 2 hours later....
With NS it's like homework or 3 hour game? Uh ok I'd better do my work. So less people play(and the cure for cancer is eventually found).
Anyhow I'd much rather play NS, but I don't think it'll become as popular as CS.
NS is still a great game (and I'd pay money if a publisher ever got ahold of Flayra and he made NS2).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Other RTS's have gotten large player bases. How long are starcraft games? I think the key to NS becoming more popular is handling positive reinforcement better. I talk about that in this post: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=23930' target='_blank'>positive reinforcement discussion</a>
I think that's a big reason why people are less willing to play NS. If it's free, most people will assume they can just pick it up and start kicking butt. But NS is structured like a regular RTS rather than FPS. It's hard to convince people to learn how to really play a game... unless they pay for it. Then they have a reason to learn. Otherwise, a lot of people won't give it a chance (those weak-minded fools!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ). I mean, it's great that it's free, but this makes many people assume it's just another simple frag game.
CS can be highly enjoyable, but generally not on public servers, unless you happen to be one of many "regulars". After playing only CS on a LAN for a term and a half because the dorm internet connection sucks (something that makes everyone surprisingly good), I've learned that a lot of fun and strategy can go into CS (I've also learned I'm sick of it after seeing it so much <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ). But this is something you just don't find on <i>most</i> public servers. The majority of the people out there are only there for their supposedly-1337 h4x0r skillz (heh heh, they should meet Noodle - a guy who's done <i>nothing</i>but play CS for four years <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
I've tried getting people on my LAN to play NS. But the fact remains that even if it is a great game, most people won't try to learn such a complex game unless they have invested something in it (fun though it is and #1 in my book). There's just an expectation of ease that comes with most free mods.
NS could never get as popular as CS until flayra sells out to Valve. Dont do it Flayra. Personally I hate Valve. They havent given us a new tfc2 pic in about 2 years, and I know all they're doing is basking in CS's glory - a mod they didn't even make. I wish CS would just die. Die.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I find strange about the CS phenomenon is that the game has been surpassed. That is to say, technically there are more realistic and/or better team based shooters<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. I firmly believe that a majority of CS players just got retail CS or had a friend set it up for them... and don't even realize that Half Life is the basis for CS and that CS is a mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is EXACTLY why I find the CS phenomenon so utterly, stomach-ulceratingly frustrating.
CS doesn't have a non existent learning curve. When I first picked it up, having played TFC since its release, I got royally reamed. It does by now, because so manygames have emulated it that it's become the standard.
Anyway, my point is that THERE ARE OTHER GAMES WHERE YOU JUST HOP ON A SERVER AND START FRAGGING PEOPLE. Not only that, there are other games where the fragging is more fun, has less "BS factor", and doesn't have teammates to get in the way. Yes, I'm talking about the long-lost ancient art of DeathMatch.
Come on. Even if you just want to put your brain on hold and frag people, even if you don't want an in depth, innovative, involving game THERE ARE BETTER GAMES THAN CS WHICH OFFER THIS. If you do want something in depth and innovative, there are HEAPS of games which let you do this.
CS is like Mircrosoft an McDonalds. It's cheap, inferior, all-pervasive and (Microsoft especially) relies on a monopoly, with most of its users not even knowing that better alternatives (or even ANY alternatives) exist.
yep. For the longest time i went on a mission to save all the "lost souls" of people playing CS. I cheated, cheated, and cheated some more in attempt to get people **** off and stop playing cs. I started cheating in beta 3, so I guess it didn't help.
Counter-Strike is just so hard to top, even for an amazing mod like NS. It's such a big gaming "milestone" as one person posted before me that I doubt it'll be topped until it fades away and the community, if not dies, slows down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Counter-Strike is just so hard to top, even for an amazing mod like NS. It's such a big gaming "milestone" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the reasons for CS's success was that it was never challanged. The Quake and Unreal series, the main other FPSers, didn't offer the team environment of CS nor the actual "round" system which ment deaths were actually bad for you. CS never faced serious competition in the team-play market, with the possible exception of Team Fortress Classic but this had a lot of deathmatch elemants. Problem was once CS went commericial it went <i>bad</i>. I just stopped playing it shortly after 1.0, it just wasn't worth playing anymore. I hope with all my heart every day that the NS team never does this, and I have faith that they won't. Mods are supposed to be by gamers for gamers, not for the public to savage because "it's unfair to new players" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
While I really love the NS mod, I don't think it will ever top CS. (and I'm not a CS fan)
Let's look at FA by comparison. It won PC Gamer mod of the year in 2000, <b>beating out CS</b>!! They had loads of servers and were coming on strong. The problem was (in my opinion) that they just didn't get the game balanced fast enough.
In no way am I criticizing anyone on the dev teams. (for any mod) It's hard writing a game like this in your spare time, and I can ABSOLUTELY understand when those demands on your time in real life have to take priority.
However, with NS I see some major balance stumbling blocks, and the amount of time it will take to overcome them will take TOO LONG. People are pretty impatient when it comes to games.
As a beta tester for MS' games division, I see a LOT of titles come by me, and the cycle between the start of testing and release is never more than 6 months for a typical title. Yes I know those are COMERCIAL titles, but isn't that what we are comparing here? CS <b>is</b> a commercial title.
With FA they are STILL trying to balance the game, and now you're lucky to find 50 servers with people on them. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> The problem is that many people just don't want to wait.
NS is an absolutely GREAT mod, but with quick and substancial balance changes, I don't see the game lasting in the long run. (to the point where it could go commercial) NS will always be around in some form, but I don't see NS reaching the level of popularity that CS has.
I really truly hope the NS team isn't taking pointers from this thread, because I feel most of the posts have been 100% accurate. Seems like all of the bad aspects mentioned about CS are the ones that attract the popularity, ironically.
The dev team should not see this thread as a bad thing, and they won't.
NS is in my opinion, and probably in the opinions of a great deal others, <i>far</i> superior to Counter-Strike, but in different ways. I don't think that matters to the dev team. This mod has been in development a long time, and I doubt Flay had in mind the next "CS crushing mod" when he thought of making NS.
Not beating Counter-Strike in terms of popularity means nothing. Zero. Zilch. Look at some of the less popular mods in the HL community and you'll find your better games. FireArms, it was mentioned above. Small number of people that play that. Science and Industry, terrific mod, small number of people that play it.
If NS loses a lot of players things will probably only get better. People will get to know eachother better as the result of a smaller community, and things will get more friendly. You'll see yourself playing with the same people more often, etc, etc.
If NS ever loses massive amounts of players (god forbid) the fact will still remain that it is an amazing mod in it's own right and although may be topped by CS in player numbers, is on par if not better than it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Someone Who Cares+Feb 20 2003, 02:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Someone Who Cares @ Feb 20 2003, 02:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I really truly hope the NS team isn't taking pointers from this thread, because I feel most of the posts have been 100% accurate. Seems like all of the bad aspects mentioned about CS are the ones that attract the popularity, ironically. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I seem to remember from an interview with Robin Walker about TF2, before CS was even out, when questioned about the power of the machinegunner and whether it will use locational damage he said something to the effect of "It's not very much fun if you get killed because some guy just sprayed bullets at your wildly and you happened to get hit in the head." There were other comments, to the general effect of "realism wouldn't be fun, you'd get killed too quickly."
How the mighty fall in the face of massive amounts of cash <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I must be a mindless zombie then. There was a time that CS was not the end all be all. I am not one of the masses. I was a Q1 TF and threewave CTF addict after Q1 took over for Duke3d. I never got interested in Unreal or Q2 or Q3 (Q2 Weapons factory was good though.) I played this wonderful Half-Life single player game and then found this CS beta .04 or something, It was not mindless , it was strategic and required thinking. What made it mindless is the masses of morons that came in like locusts, ruining the teamplay aspect, just as you find people ruin the NS teamplay aspect for you at times, if there were 90,000 people playing NS, you would find that many of the things plaguing CS would plague NS, the masses suck, I have 100 channels of suck, 97 because thats what the masses like, DSC, HIST, HIST wings, are it for me. When you can get on a FF CS server it can be a challenge to work as a team using real-world tactics to enter rooms and rescue hostages. Let us morn for CS for it has been noobenized. The question is what is the future of MP FPS/RTS games and WHO will be playing them?
People who like "aliens vs predator" will find the theme interesting. But the gameplay different. I think anyone who enjoys being PART of something greater will like NS. If they can overcome the learning curve and have some decent games on public servers, a lot more would find Natural Seletion entertaining.
At first I was worried how it would be. I mean the games depend on so much to click together. And truly at first, games where huge confounding fights with people milling about trying to grasp what was going on around them. That might put many off, and for good reason, and I think that alone will account for most "nah cant be bothered" defects. By all other means, NS is a terrific and engrossing game, and I am mildly surprised that most public games i play tend to be fairly entertaining, if not always played by people who do what they are told to etc.
NS is strong because it enraptures its players at first, if they survive the adaption phase. What will keep it healthy and alive will be a nice continual developement phase. We are all fickle people who like "new" so if the game changes slowly and get new maps etc, we'll most likey stick with it for a long tiem and get more people to play. I wager that if the devs keep up steam as they have so far, we will maybe see 1,5 times to twice the amount of players november 1st 2003.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Feb 19 2003, 12:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Feb 19 2003, 12:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How CS achieved such dominance is beyond me, but I know it's through no merit of its own (let's face it. CS HAS no merits.)
However, for those who play DoD, TFC, FireArms, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im sorry but your statement bites, there would be NO, DOD, or NS without CS. just as there would be no Quake w/o Duke 3d. I could get into massive detail but I wont, your so smart figure it out.
Its called EVOLUTION!
Im starting to realize that the majority here, are KIDS who only know STARCRAFT. Brainless mouse clicking.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ravlen+Feb 19 2003, 12:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ravlen @ Feb 19 2003, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, it is amazing when a CS player calls NS repetetive (I asked a few weeks back on my local CS server).
CS, a game where all you do it run to 1-2 bomb sites and plant a bomb, or protect a few hostages. In the same place. Every game. Day in, day out. And you call NS repetetive? Blows my mind.
Ravlen <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And I find myself agreeing with you Ravlen...
<!--QuoteBegin--Crazed-One+Feb 21 2003, 08:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crazed-One @ Feb 21 2003, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Feb 19 2003, 12:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Feb 19 2003, 12:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How CS achieved such dominance is beyond me, but I know it's through no merit of its own (let's face it. CS HAS no merits.)
However, for those who play DoD, TFC, FireArms, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im sorry but your statement bites, there would be NO, DOD, or NS without CS. just as there would be no Quake w/o Duke 3d. I could get into massive detail but I wont, your so smart figure it out.
Its called EVOLUTION!
Im starting to realize that the majority here, are KIDS who only know STARCRAFT. Brainless mouse clicking. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Excuse me, but that's bunk. TFC predated CS. Are you trying to say that CS was the very first mod, without which there would have been no others?
Look, CS was not the first. It wasn't the best and still isn't. It's just the most popular. Yes, was the first to come up with round-based, realistic damage model. It wasn't the first to come up with "join a server and start fragging people", which is all people play it for these days.
The only positive things CS can take credit for are, imho, spawning a mass of CS clones and proving that computer games are most definately for the masses.
I don't honestly believe that DN3d made a damn bit of difference to iD creating Quake, by the way. Actually, true 3d first person environments existed long before Quake did. But this is beside the point; I'm not denying that notable games spur the developement of other games, I'm denying that CS was the father of modern online gaming.
<!--QuoteBegin--Duff-Man+Feb 19 2003, 10:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Feb 19 2003, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It brings to mind QuakeWorld TeamFortress. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In three years of pub/clan QWTF play ([AD]MorphineAngel), I can't remember another player accusing me of cheating, calling me names, or banning me for a particularly good killing spree. QWTF's dominance was sort of a Pax Romani. It had a lot of servers, but it was a really solid game with a mature, sportsmanlike community.
In short, it was popular with the people who had broadband back then (university students and adults with full-time jobs). CS is popular with the people who have broadband now (most everyone). If no one had ever heard of TF, and it was released tomorrow, it would probably end up a top-10 game, but would never be as popular as CS.
I agree completely that NS is more team oriented than CS if you talk about casual public play. I have NEVER seen any teamwork worth mentioning on public CS servers. Thats why I stopped playing CS on public servers. I am however a very active CS-player on the clan/ladder scene and I find CS to be an extremely rewarding team oriented game. I almost exclusively play with clanmembers in ladder matches, league matches and practice matches. The rush you get when the team act as one and execute a strategy you planned and practiced for hours is exilerating. The same occur in a well played NS game, and thats why I play NS.
I believe that there is room for improvement in a few areas based loosely on what I said above. <ul> <li> NS need stronger competitive gaming. NS lacks well organised ladders and leagues (plz do not say CB) <li> It is hard to develop and COMMUNICATE strategies for NS due to the complexity of the game/maps. You can basically plan for only the first couple of minutes. <li> The outcome in NS is to a very large degree dependant on one person, the commander. <li> The matches take a long time. If you want to play NS competetively you need to spend 4h+ on each session, several times a week, wheras in CS you need 1-2h+ per session </ul>
This said I want to assure you that I do play NS quite a lot and it is quite possible to enjoy public games in NS, something not possible in CS. I just believe that NS need to favor competive gaming more to attract more players. Or rather keep the players that try and abandon NS. Many of my CS friends that play and enjoy CS as a team-based game (not casual fraggers) have abandoned NS for the above mentioned reasons.
<!--QuoteBegin--klatu+Feb 21 2003, 09:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (klatu @ Feb 21 2003, 09:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It will never grow bigger if there is so a lame euro-scene as its now... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could you qualify that bold statement with some substance? Lame in how, lame in how will you fix it?
Ouch, sorry about that post. (humbly apologizes) I think I was in a bad mood because I have no water, darned well foot valve went last night. All I really meant was we have the masses that cater to CS to thank for the development of great FPS engines, and the competiveness of the devs to outdo each other to make a better looking and better playing FPS for MP. The masses are why someone saw the HL engine as something worth while to use for NS, NS is another step in a brighter direction. While I admit the majority of CS servers are not team oriented at all. If you played with 8 people you knew on a closed FF server using voice comm it can be very teamplay oriented. Though Americas Army is better, and now other than NS I enjoy BF1942 for my easier on the brain game. ID and 3dRealms were toe to toe in the beginning, in developing FPS, and yes there already were 3d RPG's out and castle wolfenstien. 3dRealms dropped the ball. I did not claim CS was the first mod or takes all the credit, I do agree CS is just the most popular. TF actually could be named closer to the father of team oriented FPS MP, TF had problems porting to the Quakeworld client due to.. lag, but it still came through just as NS will.
Cs size... no. A very good fan base though... yes. I just see the sheer amount of people visiting these message boards and it is a testament to the popularity of the mod.
Comments
LOL...thats a good quote..i may add it to my sig.
one thing I like in CS better than NS is that I always get SOME satisfaction out of the rounds. Every game lost in NS feels like a huge disappointment. An hour gone, a lot of hard work done, with zero result and little recognition of accomplishment.
I'll bet alot of CS'ers say "ok I'll just frag a few people and then do my homework". 2 hours later....
With NS it's like homework or 3 hour game? Uh ok I'd better do my work. So less people play(and the cure for cancer is eventually found).
Anyhow I'd much rather play NS, but I don't think it'll become as popular as CS.
NS is still a great game (and I'd pay money if a publisher ever got ahold of Flayra and he made NS2).
I'll bet alot of CS'ers say "ok I'll just frag a few people and then do my homework". 2 hours later....
With NS it's like homework or 3 hour game? Uh ok I'd better do my work. So less people play(and the cure for cancer is eventually found).
Anyhow I'd much rather play NS, but I don't think it'll become as popular as CS.
NS is still a great game (and I'd pay money if a publisher ever got ahold of Flayra and he made NS2).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other RTS's have gotten large player bases. How long are starcraft games? I think the key to NS becoming more popular is handling positive reinforcement better. I talk about that in this post: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=23930' target='_blank'>positive reinforcement discussion</a>
CS can be highly enjoyable, but generally not on public servers, unless you happen to be one of many "regulars". After playing only CS on a LAN for a term and a half because the dorm internet connection sucks (something that makes everyone surprisingly good), I've learned that a lot of fun and strategy can go into CS (I've also learned I'm sick of it after seeing it so much <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ). But this is something you just don't find on <i>most</i> public servers. The majority of the people out there are only there for their supposedly-1337 h4x0r skillz (heh heh, they should meet Noodle - a guy who's done <i>nothing</i>but play CS for four years <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
I've tried getting people on my LAN to play NS. But the fact remains that even if it is a great game, most people won't try to learn such a complex game unless they have invested something in it (fun though it is and #1 in my book). There's just an expectation of ease that comes with most free mods.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. I firmly believe that a majority of CS players just got retail CS or had a friend set it up for them... and don't even realize that Half Life is the basis for CS and that CS is a mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is EXACTLY why I find the CS phenomenon so utterly, stomach-ulceratingly frustrating.
CS doesn't have a non existent learning curve. When I first picked it up, having played TFC since its release, I got royally reamed. It does by now, because so manygames have emulated it that it's become the standard.
Anyway, my point is that THERE ARE OTHER GAMES WHERE YOU JUST HOP ON A SERVER AND START FRAGGING PEOPLE. Not only that, there are other games where the fragging is more fun, has less "BS factor", and doesn't have teammates to get in the way. Yes, I'm talking about the long-lost ancient art of DeathMatch.
Come on. Even if you just want to put your brain on hold and frag people, even if you don't want an in depth, innovative, involving game THERE ARE BETTER GAMES THAN CS WHICH OFFER THIS. If you do want something in depth and innovative, there are HEAPS of games which let you do this.
CS is like Mircrosoft an McDonalds. It's cheap, inferior, all-pervasive and (Microsoft especially) relies on a monopoly, with most of its users not even knowing that better alternatives (or even ANY alternatives) exist.
Ugh.
It brings to mind QuakeWorld TeamFortress.
One of the reasons for CS's success was that it was never challanged. The Quake and Unreal series, the main other FPSers, didn't offer the team environment of CS nor the actual "round" system which ment deaths were actually bad for you. CS never faced serious competition in the team-play market, with the possible exception of Team Fortress Classic but this had a lot of deathmatch elemants.
Problem was once CS went commericial it went <i>bad</i>. I just stopped playing it shortly after 1.0, it just wasn't worth playing anymore. I hope with all my heart every day that the NS team never does this, and I have faith that they won't. Mods are supposed to be by gamers for gamers, not for the public to savage because "it's unfair to new players" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let's look at FA by comparison. It won PC Gamer mod of the year in 2000, <b>beating out CS</b>!! They had loads of servers and were coming on strong. The problem was (in my opinion) that they just didn't get the game balanced fast enough.
In no way am I criticizing anyone on the dev teams. (for any mod) It's hard writing a game like this in your spare time, and I can ABSOLUTELY understand when those demands on your time in real life have to take priority.
However, with NS I see some major balance stumbling blocks, and the amount of time it will take to overcome them will take TOO LONG. People are pretty impatient when it comes to games.
As a beta tester for MS' games division, I see a LOT of titles come by me, and the cycle between the start of testing and release is never more than 6 months for a typical title. Yes I know those are COMERCIAL titles, but isn't that what we are comparing here? CS <b>is</b> a commercial title.
With FA they are STILL trying to balance the game, and now you're lucky to find 50 servers with people on them. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> The problem is that many people just don't want to wait.
NS is an absolutely GREAT mod, but with quick and substancial balance changes, I don't see the game lasting in the long run. (to the point where it could go commercial) NS will always be around in some form, but I don't see NS reaching the level of popularity that CS has.
Regards,
Savant
NS is in my opinion, and probably in the opinions of a great deal others, <i>far</i> superior to Counter-Strike, but in different ways. I don't think that matters to the dev team. This mod has been in development a long time, and I doubt Flay had in mind the next "CS crushing mod" when he thought of making NS.
Not beating Counter-Strike in terms of popularity means nothing. Zero. Zilch. Look at some of the less popular mods in the HL community and you'll find your better games. FireArms, it was mentioned above. Small number of people that play that. Science and Industry, terrific mod, small number of people that play it.
If NS loses a lot of players things will probably only get better. People will get to know eachother better as the result of a smaller community, and things will get more friendly. You'll see yourself playing with the same people more often, etc, etc.
If NS ever loses massive amounts of players (god forbid) the fact will still remain that it is an amazing mod in it's own right and although may be topped by CS in player numbers, is on par if not better than it.
I seem to remember from an interview with Robin Walker about TF2, before CS was even out, when questioned about the power of the machinegunner and whether it will use locational damage he said something to the effect of "It's not very much fun if you get killed because some guy just sprayed bullets at your wildly and you happened to get hit in the head." There were other comments, to the general effect of "realism wouldn't be fun, you'd get killed too quickly."
Oh, the irony!
At first I was worried how it would be. I mean the games depend on so much to click together. And truly at first, games where huge confounding fights with people milling about trying to grasp what was going on around them. That might put many off, and for good reason, and I think that alone will account for most "nah cant be bothered" defects. By all other means, NS is a terrific and engrossing game, and I am mildly surprised that most public games i play tend to be fairly entertaining, if not always played by people who do what they are told to etc.
NS is strong because it enraptures its players at first, if they survive the adaption phase. What will keep it healthy and alive will be a nice continual developement phase. We are all fickle people who like "new" so if the game changes slowly and get new maps etc, we'll most likey stick with it for a long tiem and get more people to play. I wager that if the devs keep up steam as they have so far, we will maybe see 1,5 times to twice the amount of players november 1st 2003.
However, for those who play DoD, TFC, FireArms, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry but your statement bites, there would be NO, DOD, or NS without CS. just as there would be no Quake w/o Duke 3d. I could get into massive detail but I wont, your so smart figure it out.
Its called EVOLUTION!
Im starting to realize that the majority here, are KIDS who only know STARCRAFT. Brainless mouse clicking.
CS, a game where all you do it run to 1-2 bomb sites and plant a bomb, or protect a few hostages. In the same place. Every game. Day in, day out. And you call NS repetetive? Blows my mind.
Ravlen <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I find myself agreeing with you Ravlen...
However, for those who play DoD, TFC, FireArms, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry but your statement bites, there would be NO, DOD, or NS without CS. just as there would be no Quake w/o Duke 3d. I could get into massive detail but I wont, your so smart figure it out.
Its called EVOLUTION!
Im starting to realize that the majority here, are KIDS who only know STARCRAFT. Brainless mouse clicking. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me, but that's bunk. TFC predated CS. Are you trying to say that CS was the very first mod, without which there would have been no others?
Look, CS was not the first. It wasn't the best and still isn't. It's just the most popular. Yes, was the first to come up with round-based, realistic damage model. It wasn't the first to come up with "join a server and start fragging people", which is all people play it for these days.
The only positive things CS can take credit for are, imho, spawning a mass of CS clones and proving that computer games are most definately for the masses.
I don't honestly believe that DN3d made a damn bit of difference to iD creating Quake, by the way. Actually, true 3d first person environments existed long before Quake did. But this is beside the point; I'm not denying that notable games spur the developement of other games, I'm denying that CS was the father of modern online gaming.
In three years of pub/clan QWTF play ([AD]MorphineAngel), I can't remember another player accusing me of cheating, calling me names, or banning me for a particularly good killing spree. QWTF's dominance was sort of a Pax Romani. It had a lot of servers, but it was a really solid game with a mature, sportsmanlike community.
In short, it was popular with the people who had broadband back then (university students and adults with full-time jobs). CS is popular with the people who have broadband now (most everyone). If no one had ever heard of TF, and it was released tomorrow, it would probably end up a top-10 game, but would never be as popular as CS.
I believe that there is room for improvement in a few areas based loosely on what I said above.
<ul>
<li> NS need stronger competitive gaming. NS lacks well organised ladders and leagues (plz do not say CB)
<li> It is hard to develop and COMMUNICATE strategies for NS due to the complexity of the game/maps. You can basically plan for only the first couple of minutes.
<li> The outcome in NS is to a very large degree dependant on one person, the commander.
<li> The matches take a long time. If you want to play NS competetively you need to spend 4h+ on each session, several times a week, wheras in CS you need 1-2h+ per session
</ul>
This said I want to assure you that I do play NS quite a lot and it is quite possible to enjoy public games in NS, something not possible in CS. I just believe that NS need to favor competive gaming more to attract more players. Or rather keep the players that try and abandon NS. Many of my CS friends that play and enjoy CS as a team-based game (not casual fraggers) have abandoned NS for the above mentioned reasons.
Could you qualify that bold statement with some substance? Lame in how, lame in how will you fix it?