<!--QuoteBegin--Bytor+Feb 13 2003, 06:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bytor @ Feb 13 2003, 06:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Again, a skill issue that only applies to one team IS a game balance issue ALSO. The two are not mutually exclusive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really...aliens are suppose to be more loners.
Marines are ment to be played as a team, thus requiring a different play style (like in the manual)
If the game is suppose to be played as its ment to, its not a balance issue.
Then issue is the players playing the game as it was ment to be played and not CS.
My last comment before I stop following this thread 'cos its getting silly.
Seeing that marines win less often than aliens on a public server yet everyone* still want to go marine leads me to the conclusion that people can have fun win or loose. It also leads me to think if I want a challenging tactical game I should play marines and if I just want to hack stuff up I should play alien. This is better than balance because the game caters for a variety of objectives whilst remaining fun for everyone. Finally it leads me to believe that people on pubs all want to be Hudson and in a way it appears most manage it.
I play marines more often since 1.04 because its harder and more rewarding for me. I dont feel like I loose as often as the statistics show, I probably do but perception is in many ways more real than fact.
As for private servers, thats another thread. Thank you and goodnight.
*I know I said everyone, I meant there is still often a queue at the marine door and not the aliens...
Nice angle, eaglec. I agree. Even though the marines are getting hosed on pubs, the players must like it that way. I don't see players waiting in line to join the Kharaa. If the balance were adjusted so that pub marines won more often, perhaps playing a marine wouldn't be so fun? After all, the goal is to have fun, not necessarily to win. If the current level of balance is (on average) fun for both sides, tweaking the system may be ill advised.
I'm doing rehashing eaglec's points in my own words; I'm off to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Feb 13 2003, 09:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Feb 13 2003, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nice angle, eaglec. I agree. Even though the marines are getting hosed on pubs, the players must like it that way. I don't see players waiting in line to join the Kharaa. If the balance were adjusted so that pub marines won more often, perhaps playing a marine wouldn't be so fun? After all, the goal is to have fun, not necessarily to win. If the current level of balance is (on average) fun for both sides, tweaking the system may be ill advised.
I'm doing rehashing eaglec's points in my own words; I'm off to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice angle, eaglec. I agree. Even though the marines are getting hosed on pubs, the players must like it that way. I don't see players waiting in line to join the Kharaa. If the balance were adjusted so that pub marines won more often, perhaps playing a marine wouldn't be so fun? After all, the goal is to have fun, not necessarily to win. If the current level of balance is (on average) fun for both sides, tweaking the system may be ill advised.
I'm doing rehashing eaglec's points in my own words; I'm off to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--cracker jackmac+Feb 13 2003, 07:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cracker jackmac @ Feb 13 2003, 07:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not really...aliens are suppose to be more loners.
Marines are ment to be played as a team, thus requiring a different play style (like in the manual)
If the game is suppose to be played as its ment to, its not a balance issue.
Then issue is the players playing the game as it was ment to be played and not CS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Regardless of how the game is MEANT to be played, if it's easier to play one side than the other, it's a balance issue. I agree that the game should be played as intended, but that doesn't change the fact that one side seems to require more skill than the other, which is what appears to be the case here.
Personally, like others in this thread have mentioned, I like it this way. Perhaps that imbalance is intended. If so, great ... I have no problem with one side being more challenging than the other, so long as people still choose that side. And that's obviously not a problem with NS. Despite the greater challenge, many people still favor marines. I consider it an imbalance, but not a show-stopper, and not something that necessarily needs to be addressed.
On the server I play on, CHI Mayhem, many of the regulars choose Random Team when they join up. I still go Aliens most of the time because I have become quite adept at gorging, and it's rewarding to me to be the gorge on a winning alien team, especially when the marines really make us work for our win. But I still go marine occaisonally when I want a challenge, or when I see that the marine team is filling with skilled regulars. I hate playing marines with newbies. I love playing marines with veterans, regardless of whether or not we win. No surprise there.
When I originally posted the stats, I was making an observation, not trying to start a debate on the balance.
I wanted to follow up by mentioning, that (and I have no stats to back it up) about 60-70% of the games I play as a marine, that has a decent commander, we win.
I think the balance is fine. The *only* thing I believe is a little off is the ability for Jetpackers to carry HMG's. I've had quite a few times where I've flown in to a base early on with an hmg and jp, and taken down the hive singlehandly. I know its a new thread entirely, but I wouldnt mind seeing an "upgrade" to jetpacks to allow them to carry heavier weapons. If nothing else, it gives the aliens a slightly longer time to set up defenses.
<!--QuoteBegin--Zdrone+Feb 14 2003, 09:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zdrone @ Feb 14 2003, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When I originally posted the stats, I was making an observation, not trying to start a debate on the balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its cool.
Its needs to be debated. The dev team needs feed back from real servers.
This debate isn't flamey yet so i don't see why it should be stopped.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless of how the game is MEANT to be played, if it's easier to play one side than the other, it's a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But its designed that way. Aliens are suppose to be more rouge than Marines. Marines need to be in teams or groups and work together w/ guidence from the comm. Where the aliens...."....is under attack" they run to it...and bite...its more mindless. I think its in the manual or FAQ as well, i'm not sure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but that doesn't change the fact that one side seems to require more skill than the other, which is what appears to be the case here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not <b>more</b> skill <i>different</i> skill. Its a different game for each side and each requiring a different <b>type</b> of skill. Not saying one side is harder/easier than the other. I'm saying you can't play marines the same way you play aliens. And thats the way, i beleive, Flayra wanted it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hate playing marines with newbies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> don't we all?? ggrrr.....<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love playing marines with veterans, regardless of whether or not we win. No surprise there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> win or lose, its usually an epic game.. They way NS was ment to be played. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yay! Real discussion!... finally <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This makes me think of a time about 7 days after NS went public and maybe one or two after I joined the forums <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Terr+Nov 7 2002, 01:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terr @ Nov 7 2002, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->------Win Reporting. This would certainly take a lot of guesswork out of the 'balance issues'! What if dedicated servers would output their Win/Lose/Tie/Map/Gametime/Relevant Cvars records to a file, which trusted admins could then submit on the boards or something? Then it would be possible to get an idea of the larger picture of balance, and it would be possible (with enough trustworthy statistical data) to do small tweaks until the win rates are roughtly 50/50? I'd imagine something like this:
It would finally be a way to back up the: "No, so and so team always wins."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nostradamus is my hero <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--TheMuffinMan+Feb 15 2003, 10:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheMuffinMan @ Feb 15 2003, 10:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> zdrone, where those h2o-7 stats taken before or after h2o-7 went 24 player cos it seems aliens win about 100% more on that server now its 24 player <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually its a mixture. I dont recall the day I did it (can find out though).
I will rerun them when I get a chance before and after to get a feel.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
One interesting thing to do would be to track marine wins by commander to try and see how much difference the commander makes. Could give you some hard numbers on just how important the commander is.
I'd REALLY like to get the stats up for my server, but TBH I don't want psychostats on (just another thing to go wrong now I've finally got it stable!)
Are there any other handy programs I can use to extract the info perchance? I'm running win2k and winXP on my 2 machines BTW so none of this lovely, functional, sensible LINUX malarky, I'm after a nice old fashined buggy WIN32 garbage proggy to do it :/
I could send the logs to a trusted individual too, as an option, but I'd prefer to do it myself then I can do it again in the future.
Roob, great low ping server - but can I suggest you add /stuck and perhaps admin_mod or some contact details for when your not around! Thats another story though, what you could do is set up pschostats to work on another PC (like the one you noramlly play from) and just drag the log files accross on a lan connection for processing.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueDemon+Feb 12 2003, 06:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueDemon @ Feb 12 2003, 06:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes, shocking. I must admit i didn't realise marines win only about 1/4 of the time.
I guess this needs some subtle re-balancing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> geez, I guess I had the only server where marines and aliens were getting more like 63% laiens and 37% marines... but I'd assume that's due to the n00bishness of many of the marines that played there...and my best clanmates often being on the alien side....but as games get larger they certainly do even out and last much longer, as long as something stupid or cheap doesn't happen....
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--Bytor+Feb 14 2003, 09:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bytor @ Feb 14 2003, 09:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless of how the game is MEANT to be played, if it's easier to play one side than the other, it's a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless my....ok, let's not get crap from the mods today.....
Regardless of what you say, if a game is meant to be played a certain way, and players fail to play it that way and lose as a result, it is <b>NOT</b> a <u>balance</u> issue!! Balance issues have to do with gameplay <b>mechanics</b> not the players actions or strategies....understand? So regardless nothing, if players fail to use a proper strategy and lose as a result, tough luck....when players play intelligents it's usually a lot more like 60/40 in favour of the marines, if the marines can't pull together, they deserve to die...
Not to over simplify all the discussions here but it seems to me that if the teams are even in numbers, say 6 on 6. Three of the Marines (Comm, builder and someone to guard the builder) and One Alien (Gorge) is taken out of the game. This leaves 3 Marines and 5 Aliens for other roles. Doesn’t this in its self lead us to a balance problem?
Thoughts?
Note: Also, normally there is one Marine asked to say back and guard the base. This leaves 2 marines for other roles. I'll not even get into how fast a Fade can take out a well-guarded rt.
I'd like to shamelessly plug another <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=23462' target='_blank'>thread</a> that you guys may wish to comment on--what kinds of statistics would you like to be able to have availible besides the normal stuff relating to kills and deaths?
lol Eaglec, my server already has /stuck (or /unstuck) plugin and is running adminmod too... sv_contact is set with contact details if you need me at any point. You can also check this from 3rd party programs such as <a href='http://www.udpsoft.com/eye/' target='_blank'>The All Seeing Eye</a>.
I've been through manually about 2 weeks of logs for 1.04 To my extreme surprise, the alien win percentage is typically 70-80% I cannot put it down completely to those boring rubbish 70 second games either where marines make a mistake at the beginning and have to start all over again.
I've got to admit, having looked through the logs myself, it does appear there is a balance issue in the game, a position I was sceptical of until yesterday...
Looks like most of the disagreements in this thread stem from differing definitions of the term "balance". To me, anything that skews win percentages one way or the other, is a balance issue. The marines require more teamwork to win. I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. By my definition, that's a balance issue. If one side requires "more" of anything, be it teamwork, skill, etc., then the balance is off. Again, my opinion, based on my definition. A few people in this thread have a much tighter definition of balance, which is cool.
What I find really great about NS is that even with this apparent imbalance between the two sides, there are still plenty of people who prefer to play on the marine team. I don't see it as hurting the game in any significant way. Yeah, many newbies may get discouraged when they choose marines in the beginning, and get trounced 75% of the time, but they probably either get better or just go aliens. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since this thread has largely diminished to a matter of semantics, maybe we should discuss what would happen to the win percentages if both teams always had an equal amount of teamwork. Would it still favor the aliens? I guess we'd have to look at percentages on competition servers to get some idea.
To clarify why I shifted my position of "balance" in NS:
Just because the win percentage is off doesn't mean there's a problem with balance in my mind, it requires the two teams to be equally skilled. I know that on my server the majority of the time, the marine team is of equal skill to the aliens. I know this, because I play there a lot and I play along with the regulars a lot, so I know how good they are.
To compound the issue, alien wins on the whole happen in MUCH shorter time. I've yet to put the statistics together, but at a gestimate (remember I went through the log files manually, so I've a fair idea about it), I'd say that alien wins occur in (on average) ~1000-1500s (=16-24 mins), whereas marine wins are typically in the range 40-80 mins, with many taking over 2 hours to complete.
The issue as I see it is a very complex one, but in my mind from my own server's experience, I've had to change my opinion and say that i do believe there to be a balance problem in the game.
I also agree with Bytor that as long as marines are still desperate to run to their demise, the imbalance is not a problem for the NS community.
I am amazed at the length of discussion where wild-**** guesses and speculation are considered the answer to facts. The server win percentages are facts. All the rest of this hogwash about "well, on pubs the marines are N00bs" and "the commanders are N00bs" and "marines are much easier to play" and "if you can shoot straight you will win" is completely irrelevant. The facts are the facts: aliens win 75 to 80 % of the time on public servers, which is where the vast majority of the NS community play. So, if the concensus of the community is that it is perfectly fine to have a game where one side wins almost all the time, then there is no problem. On the other hand, if the concensus is that the outcome of the game should not be more or less predetermined, then perhaps some re-thinking needs to be done. The results on clan servers are of no interest whatsoever to the hundreds of people who do not play on clan servers.
Very well said, Vimstl ... the percentages do indeed speak for themselves. People can speculate all they want about the reasons for the imbalance, but regardless of the reasons, the imbalance remains, and is readily apparent from the stats.
Thankfully, many people see the marines as the more challenging side, and they choose the marine team for that very reason.
The cause of marine losses is extremely important. This is not wild speculation. The marines win more often on servers with a higher percentage of experienced players. Most pub players are relatively new to NS (NS is still a "new" mod). Thus, we conjecture that the learning curve of playing the aliens effectively is lower than playing marines effectively. This is supported by the empyrical reports of many forum posters that new players do not command effectively, nor do they work well in a team, both of which are skills that most have agreed are necessary for a marine win.
So, why is the cause of marine losses important? Simple. Do we want the game balanced for the public player base as it is now, or do we want it balanced for when many of them have learned to play effectively? I believe this question has already been answered. There's no shortage of players waiting to play marines now, despite being hosed according to the "win percentages." Adjusting the balance in favor of the marines will only provoke a much stronger "aliens have the short end of the stick" argument months down the road, when pubbies have learned to play marines well.
Where do the results of clan play enter the equation? Clan play is representative of "experienced" play, and can give a good indication of what the public player base will be approaching, given time. Yes, the teamwork shown by a clan will likely never be matched by random players on a public server, but players can work as part of a team without needing intimate knowledge of their teammates. The average public NS player does not possess much in the way of teamplay skills now, because he lacks experience. Experience comes with time. Give the situation time; I fully expect it to resolve itself.
Side note: how many alien wins are "solid" wins, and how many are the result of situations like "marine base wasn't defended well, and the crappy marines didn't phase back in time because they were off rambo-ing"? Or, base is under attack, but the inexperienced commander didn't notice until the IPs were destroyed? I think the win percentages are already skewed quite a bit in favor of the aliens because the "cheap" win is currently had easier for them. And these cheap wins are had because of inexperienced marines, and inexperienced commanders.
I completely agree with Bytor and Vimstl. Firstly, I define "balance" as something else besides "when skulk and LMG/LA fight 1v1, the skulk wins". Balance comes from playstyle (maybe NS doesn't support teamplay enough?), weapon damage/armor, the commander interface, maps weldable spots, servers player limit etc. You can always say no matter what that "marines are noobs" or "aliens are noobs" to try to hinder the fact that the game might actually be unbalanced. For example, I might say that marine defense demands a more complex understanding of the game, which is clearly an alien advantage (and if this was the only factor in the game, the game would be unbalanced in aliens favour):
As a marine, when you want to defend a resource tower with turrets and mines, you must place the TF in a position where it has no "blind spots". Leaving a single blind spot can make your defense obsolete, because your whole outpost might be wiped out by a single skulk who notices the blind spot and takes advantage of it. Always remember to position sentries so that they can cover eachother. When using mines, you musn't place them on walls, but try to hide them around corners or put them in places where they can't be avoided (and on the ground too!).
As an alien, when building defense, you toss DCs and OCs near eachother. It doesn't matter if your defense is slightly "chaotical", because the DCs will heal the OCs no matter how they are positioned if near enough. You just need to know how to put OCs next to eachother so their block the route and maybe toss a few DCs into the mess.
Now, I don't know about you, but if I was new, I'd say that alien defense is much more simplistic and straightforward almost eliminating fatal mistakes. On marine side, one misplaced sentry can cause the defense to collapse. This is part of balance just as "LMG kills skulk in 7 bullets".
Of course, you cannot create absolute balance without making the teams completely identical, but you can emphazize certain aspects of the game, like teamplay, more to give marines more advantages than they have now. Maybe marines should get a healthboost when they move in teams (please don't flame me because of this! Just an example). I do not think the right way to find balance is to try hopelessly find "evenly skilled teams". Just how are you supposed to test "skills" and make sure "skill" stays equal in teams troughout different games and rounds? Seems to be somekind of a last "dogma", something you can always rely on and count on the fact that "skill" can't be tested on publics. "Noooo, the game is perfectly balanced, marines just have less skill". It might be absolutely true, but how to prove that in every (almost) public server aliens always have bigger "skill" and thus percentages go the way they go?
I think it would be much more fruitful to acknowledge the fact that in public 14 or 16 player servers (I'm under the impression most servers have this limit), the game isn't balanced, because the player limit is too low and marine mistakes become more fatal. With a bigger amount of players, the teamplay becomes a bigger factor and individual player becomes less important for aliens thus balancing the game. If developers wish to make balanced 14 or 16 player servers, they should probably increase the importance of alien teamwork by giving boosts to marine teamplay (either finding eachother like kharaa or more direct means like a healthboost). The game balance is just fine in some servers, but it's not fine in a 14/16 player server (which some of you are talking about, right?). Statistical facts back it up. It's the way things are now! After people get experience, statistics in the current version will change, but by that time, the newer version is probably released thus altering the game and adding new twists to it. I only encourage the developers to acknowledge how things are now when making alterations!
P.S. Please notice I'm always talking about public servers and their balance. Clangaming is a totally another thing, because there more "idealistic" and repetitive theories (JP/HMG rush, marines F4ing, god knows...) actually show in statistics.
P.S. #2 No, I'm not an evil "IHateKharaa"-fanatic: I like alien side better and play it more and get lotsa wins. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
My perfectionistic nature couldn't leave me, so I'd just like to add one more point about balance. When people clearly notice that the game is far from balanced by "just playing the game in a random server", the win percentage might be somewhere around 90% (like marines in v1.0). I don't think anyone says 1.0 was balanced. You'd think its "okay" when you play and percentages are around 70-80%, but statistics are a good way to find out how it really is.
Someone want to run stats, tossing out all games under, say, 10 or 15 minutes long, and see what the marine win percentage looks like then? If we're going to nitpick over exact percentages because they're *all-representative* of the balance, then let's toss out the junk. A successful skulk rush at the beginning of a game says nothing about the true balance, but alien wins of a "cheap" nature are quite common on pubs. (The marines can't hit the broad side of a barn, hump the armory instead of phasing to the hive, don't phase back to base when told to, whatever). If the marines blow a game due to crappy players or a crappy comm, then it'll most likely happen very early. I, for one, am not interested in the game being balanced with "the marines will be stupid" in mind.
Perhaps a better statistic to look at in that vein...
Weigh the wins so that the games that last around the total-average time are given the most weight to the winner.
Thus severely long games and really short games would be partially ignored. Short games should be less meaningful because it smacks of player incompetence, very long games should be less meaningful because it suggests the inevitable ending caused by happenstance.
I find that this "debate" hasn't become about game balance but more about the definition of balance.
In my opinoin, and thats all it is, balance isn't one side being easier than the other. Its about the weapons damage mainly.
If one side has to play a different way that the other (what we've always wanted), then good!! But if 1 skulk > 1 marine then we have a problem.
But that isn't the case. I can, along with MANY <b>skilled</b> players can go atleast 3:1. Hell, me and my admin can take on 6 at a time. The success of killing skulks is counter-manuvering and not running away. Using stairs and stuff to your advantage (like in Q2&3) you can easly outsmart your enemy and plug 50 shots into him/her.
1 Skulk is !> 1 Marine.
You want the sides to be played differently because playing one side isn't playing all the sides (like in SC, WC3, CS, etc). Games like these are old-school as proposed to what the god Flayra has done for game play. Nothing can equate to the vastness of playability in NS. Playing Marine or Alien makes it a completely different game from the other side. This is what alot of us have yearned for in a game.
Now that we have it, some of us have the tenacitcy to call it a balance issue. The fact that the PLAYERS are not use to this vast playability really effects the stats. Too many people are brainwashed by CS and CS-like games were you just get on the same team as your friend but both sides are played the same way (run and shoot, try not to die). That is not the case in NS though, you have to play as a team (marine) or be a lone warrior who only wants to get kills (alien).
But aliens aren't easy to get kills if you have the experience with skulks. Marines can easily plow down a row of skulks, but a skulk can do that same thing if he/she gets the jump on a group of marines building.
Bottom line? Game is Fine. Players need to conform to this new type of game.
p.s The key to success is sneakiness. "I am vedy vedy Sneaky sir." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yep, you definitely have a different definition of balance ... you cannot judge a game based on 1 or 2 aspects such as weapon damage. That's completely ignoring the big picture. The game isn't played by pairing up 1 skulk versus 1 marine. NS matches are not structured pistol duels. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The same goes for weapon damage ... you can't compare one weapon to another, since those aren't the only weapons in the game. And weapons are just one part of the balance equation. Don't forget armor, speed of the creatures, visibility, upgrade availability and strength, the commander, etc. etc. The list goes on.
In a game with so much depth and variance as NS, it seems to me that the only true measure of overall balance is the win percentages. In a game where one team is pitted against another, there can be no more definitive bottom line than "who wins more often."
Comments
Not really...aliens are suppose to be more loners.
Marines are ment to be played as a team, thus requiring a different play style (like in the manual)
If the game is suppose to be played as its ment to, its not a balance issue.
Then issue is the players playing the game as it was ment to be played and not CS.
Overall:
Marine Wins: 24.65%
Alien Wins: 75.34%
ns_eclipse
M: 26.73%
A: 73.27%
ns_caged
M: 20.65%
A: 79.35%
ns_nancy
M: 22.67%
A: 77.33%
ns_hera
M: 28.05%
A: 71.95%
ns_tanith
M: 25.37%
A: 74.63%
ns_nothing
M: 31.46%
A: 68.54%
ns_bast
M: 21.28%
A: 78.72%
ns_europa
M: 27.27%
A: 72.73%
Seeing that marines win less often than aliens on a public server yet everyone* still want to go marine leads me to the conclusion that people can have fun win or loose. It also leads me to think if I want a challenging tactical game I should play marines and if I just want to hack stuff up I should play alien. This is better than balance because the game caters for a variety of objectives whilst remaining fun for everyone. Finally it leads me to believe that people on pubs all want to be Hudson and in a way it appears most manage it.
I play marines more often since 1.04 because its harder and more rewarding for me. I dont feel like I loose as often as the statistics show, I probably do but perception is in many ways more real than fact.
As for private servers, thats another thread. Thank you and goodnight.
*I know I said everyone, I meant there is still often a queue at the marine door and not the aliens...
I'm doing rehashing eaglec's points in my own words; I'm off to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm doing rehashing eaglec's points in my own words; I'm off to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice angle, eaglec. I agree. Even though the marines are getting hosed on pubs, the players must like it that way. I don't see players waiting in line to join the Kharaa. If the balance were adjusted so that pub marines won more often, perhaps playing a marine wouldn't be so fun? After all, the goal is to have fun, not necessarily to win. If the current level of balance is (on average) fun for both sides, tweaking the system may be ill advised.
I'm doing rehashing eaglec's points in my own words; I'm off to play <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(praticing my college skills)
Marines are ment to be played as a team, thus requiring a different play style (like in the manual)
If the game is suppose to be played as its ment to, its not a balance issue.
Then issue is the players playing the game as it was ment to be played and not CS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless of how the game is MEANT to be played, if it's easier to play one side than the other, it's a balance issue. I agree that the game should be played as intended, but that doesn't change the fact that one side seems to require more skill than the other, which is what appears to be the case here.
Personally, like others in this thread have mentioned, I like it this way. Perhaps that imbalance is intended. If so, great ... I have no problem with one side being more challenging than the other, so long as people still choose that side. And that's obviously not a problem with NS. Despite the greater challenge, many people still favor marines. I consider it an imbalance, but not a show-stopper, and not something that necessarily needs to be addressed.
On the server I play on, CHI Mayhem, many of the regulars choose Random Team when they join up. I still go Aliens most of the time because I have become quite adept at gorging, and it's rewarding to me to be the gorge on a winning alien team, especially when the marines really make us work for our win. But I still go marine occaisonally when I want a challenge, or when I see that the marine team is filling with skilled regulars. I hate playing marines with newbies. I love playing marines with veterans, regardless of whether or not we win. No surprise there.
I wanted to follow up by mentioning, that (and I have no stats to back it up) about 60-70% of the games I play as a marine, that has a decent commander, we win.
I think the balance is fine. The *only* thing I believe is a little off is the ability for Jetpackers to carry HMG's. I've had quite a few times where I've flown in to a base early on with an hmg and jp, and taken down the hive singlehandly.
I know its a new thread entirely, but I wouldnt mind seeing an "upgrade" to jetpacks to allow them to carry heavier weapons. If nothing else, it gives the aliens a slightly longer time to set up defenses.
its cool.
Its needs to be debated. The dev team needs feed back from real servers.
This debate isn't flamey yet so i don't see why it should be stopped.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regardless of how the game is MEANT to be played, if it's easier to play one side than the other, it's a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But its designed that way. Aliens are suppose to be more rouge than Marines. Marines need to be in teams or groups and work together w/ guidence from the comm. Where the aliens...."....is under attack" they run to it...and bite...its more mindless. I think its in the manual or FAQ as well, i'm not sure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but that doesn't change the fact that one side seems to require more skill than the other, which is what appears to be the case here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not <b>more</b> skill <i>different</i> skill. Its a different game for each side and each requiring a different <b>type</b> of skill. Not saying one side is harder/easier than the other. I'm saying you can't play marines the same way you play aliens. And thats the way, i beleive, Flayra wanted it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hate playing marines with newbies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> don't we all?? ggrrr.....<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love playing marines with veterans, regardless of whether or not we win. No surprise there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> win or lose, its usually an epic game.. They way NS was ment to be played. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) This seems to be a skill issue rather than a balance issue, as clan matches tend to go the other way.
2) We really need some clan server stats here. Pleeeeease! Then we can see if (1) is actually true.
This makes me think of a time about 7 days after NS went public and maybe one or two after I joined the forums <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Terr+Nov 7 2002, 01:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Terr @ Nov 7 2002, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->------Win Reporting.
This would certainly take a lot of guesswork out of the 'balance issues'! What if dedicated servers would output their Win/Lose/Tie/Map/Gametime/Relevant Cvars records to a file, which trusted admins could then submit on the boards or something? Then it would be possible to get an idea of the larger picture of balance, and it would be possible (with enough trustworthy statistical data) to do small tweaks until the win rates are roughtly 50/50? I'd imagine something like this:
ns_bast:Aliens Win:45 minutes:avg 16.4 players
ns_bast:Marines Win:30 minutes:avg 13.3 players
etc. etc.
It would finally be a way to back up the: "No, so and so team always wins."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nostradamus is my hero <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually its a mixture. I dont recall the day I did it (can find out though).
I will rerun them when I get a chance before and after to get a feel.
I'd REALLY like to get the stats up for my server, but TBH I don't want psychostats on (just another thing to go wrong now I've finally got it stable!)
Are there any other handy programs I can use to extract the info perchance? I'm running win2k and winXP on my 2 machines BTW so none of this lovely, functional, sensible LINUX malarky, I'm after a nice old fashined buggy WIN32 garbage proggy to do it :/
I could send the logs to a trusted individual too, as an option, but I'd prefer to do it myself then I can do it again in the future.
Thanks in advance for your help fellas...
Roo
Roob's Bubtastic NS 1.04
163.1.180.217:27016
I guess this needs some subtle re-balancing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
geez, I guess I had the only server where marines and aliens were getting more like 63% laiens and 37% marines... but I'd assume that's due to the n00bishness of many of the marines that played there...and my best clanmates often being on the alien side....but as games get larger they certainly do even out and last much longer, as long as something stupid or cheap doesn't happen....
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--Bytor+Feb 14 2003, 09:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bytor @ Feb 14 2003, 09:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Regardless of how the game is MEANT to be played, if it's easier to play one side than the other, it's a balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless my....ok, let's not get crap from the mods today.....
Regardless of what you say, if a game is meant to be played a certain way, and players fail to play it that way and lose as a result, it is <b>NOT</b> a <u>balance</u> issue!! Balance issues have to do with gameplay <b>mechanics</b> not the players actions or strategies....understand? So regardless nothing, if players fail to use a proper strategy and lose as a result, tough luck....when players play intelligents it's usually a lot more like 60/40 in favour of the marines, if the marines can't pull together, they deserve to die...
Thoughts?
Note: Also, normally there is one Marine asked to say back and guard the base. This leaves 2 marines for other roles. I'll not even get into how fast a Fade can take out a well-guarded rt.
sv_contact is set with contact details if you need me at any point. You can also check this from 3rd party programs such as <a href='http://www.udpsoft.com/eye/' target='_blank'>The All Seeing Eye</a>.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've been through manually about 2 weeks of logs for 1.04
To my extreme surprise, the alien win percentage is typically 70-80%
I cannot put it down completely to those boring rubbish 70 second games either where marines make a mistake at the beginning and have to start all over again.
I've got to admit, having looked through the logs myself, it does appear there is a balance issue in the game, a position I was sceptical of until yesterday...
What I find really great about NS is that even with this apparent imbalance between the two sides, there are still plenty of people who prefer to play on the marine team. I don't see it as hurting the game in any significant way. Yeah, many newbies may get discouraged when they choose marines in the beginning, and get trounced 75% of the time, but they probably either get better or just go aliens. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since this thread has largely diminished to a matter of semantics, maybe we should discuss what would happen to the win percentages if both teams always had an equal amount of teamwork. Would it still favor the aliens? I guess we'd have to look at percentages on competition servers to get some idea.
Just because the win percentage is off doesn't mean there's a problem with balance in my mind, it requires the two teams to be equally skilled. I know that on my server the majority of the time, the marine team is of equal skill to the aliens. I know this, because I play there a lot and I play along with the regulars a lot, so I know how good they are.
To compound the issue, alien wins on the whole happen in MUCH shorter time. I've yet to put the statistics together, but at a gestimate (remember I went through the log files manually, so I've a fair idea about it), I'd say that alien wins occur in (on average) ~1000-1500s (=16-24 mins), whereas marine wins are typically in the range 40-80 mins, with many taking over 2 hours to complete.
The issue as I see it is a very complex one, but in my mind from my own server's experience, I've had to change my opinion and say that i do believe there to be a balance problem in the game.
I also agree with Bytor that as long as marines are still desperate to run to their demise, the imbalance is not a problem for the NS community.
Thankfully, many people see the marines as the more challenging side, and they choose the marine team for that very reason.
The cause of marine losses is extremely important. This is not wild speculation. The marines win more often on servers with a higher percentage of experienced players. Most pub players are relatively new to NS (NS is still a "new" mod). Thus, we conjecture that the learning curve of playing the aliens effectively is lower than playing marines effectively. This is supported by the empyrical reports of many forum posters that new players do not command effectively, nor do they work well in a team, both of which are skills that most have agreed are necessary for a marine win.
So, why is the cause of marine losses important? Simple. Do we want the game balanced for the public player base as it is now, or do we want it balanced for when many of them have learned to play effectively? I believe this question has already been answered. There's no shortage of players waiting to play marines now, despite being hosed according to the "win percentages." Adjusting the balance in favor of the marines will only provoke a much stronger "aliens have the short end of the stick" argument months down the road, when pubbies have learned to play marines well.
Where do the results of clan play enter the equation? Clan play is representative of "experienced" play, and can give a good indication of what the public player base will be approaching, given time. Yes, the teamwork shown by a clan will likely never be matched by random players on a public server, but players can work as part of a team without needing intimate knowledge of their teammates. The average public NS player does not possess much in the way of teamplay skills now, because he lacks experience. Experience comes with time. Give the situation time; I fully expect it to resolve itself.
Side note: how many alien wins are "solid" wins, and how many are the result of situations like "marine base wasn't defended well, and the crappy marines didn't phase back in time because they were off rambo-ing"? Or, base is under attack, but the inexperienced commander didn't notice until the IPs were destroyed? I think the win percentages are already skewed quite a bit in favor of the aliens because the "cheap" win is currently had easier for them. And these cheap wins are had because of inexperienced marines, and inexperienced commanders.
As a marine, when you want to defend a resource tower with turrets and mines, you must place the TF in a position where it has no "blind spots". Leaving a single blind spot can make your defense obsolete, because your whole outpost might be wiped out by a single skulk who notices the blind spot and takes advantage of it. Always remember to position sentries so that they can cover eachother. When using mines, you musn't place them on walls, but try to hide them around corners or put them in places where they can't be avoided (and on the ground too!).
As an alien, when building defense, you toss DCs and OCs near eachother. It doesn't matter if your defense is slightly "chaotical", because the DCs will heal the OCs no matter how they are positioned if near enough. You just need to know how to put OCs next to eachother so their block the route and maybe toss a few DCs into the mess.
Now, I don't know about you, but if I was new, I'd say that alien defense is much more simplistic and straightforward almost eliminating fatal mistakes. On marine side, one misplaced sentry can cause the defense to collapse. This is part of balance just as "LMG kills skulk in 7 bullets".
Of course, you cannot create absolute balance without making the teams completely identical, but you can emphazize certain aspects of the game, like teamplay, more to give marines more advantages than they have now. Maybe marines should get a healthboost when they move in teams (please don't flame me because of this! Just an example). I do not think the right way to find balance is to try hopelessly find "evenly skilled teams". Just how are you supposed to test "skills" and make sure "skill" stays equal in teams troughout different games and rounds? Seems to be somekind of a last "dogma", something you can always rely on and count on the fact that "skill" can't be tested on publics. "Noooo, the game is perfectly balanced, marines just have less skill". It might be absolutely true, but how to prove that in every (almost) public server aliens always have bigger "skill" and thus percentages go the way they go?
I think it would be much more fruitful to acknowledge the fact that in public 14 or 16 player servers (I'm under the impression most servers have this limit), the game isn't balanced, because the player limit is too low and marine mistakes become more fatal. With a bigger amount of players, the teamplay becomes a bigger factor and individual player becomes less important for aliens thus balancing the game. If developers wish to make balanced 14 or 16 player servers, they should probably increase the importance of alien teamwork by giving boosts to marine teamplay (either finding eachother like kharaa or more direct means like a healthboost). The game balance is just fine in some servers, but it's not fine in a 14/16 player server (which some of you are talking about, right?). Statistical facts back it up. It's the way things are now! After people get experience, statistics in the current version will change, but by that time, the newer version is probably released thus altering the game and adding new twists to it. I only encourage the developers to acknowledge how things are now when making alterations!
P.S. Please notice I'm always talking about public servers and their balance. Clangaming is a totally another thing, because there more "idealistic" and repetitive theories (JP/HMG rush, marines F4ing, god knows...) actually show in statistics.
P.S. #2 No, I'm not an evil "IHateKharaa"-fanatic: I like alien side better and play it more and get lotsa wins. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thanks!
Weigh the wins so that the games that last around the total-average time are given the most weight to the winner.
Thus severely long games and really short games would be partially ignored. Short games should be less meaningful because it smacks of player incompetence, very long games should be less meaningful because it suggests the inevitable ending caused by happenstance.
In my opinoin, and thats all it is, balance isn't one side being easier than the other. Its about the weapons damage mainly.
If one side has to play a different way that the other (what we've always wanted), then good!! But if 1 skulk > 1 marine then we have a problem.
But that isn't the case. I can, along with MANY <b>skilled</b> players can go atleast 3:1. Hell, me and my admin can take on 6 at a time. The success of killing skulks is counter-manuvering and not running away. Using stairs and stuff to your advantage (like in Q2&3) you can easly outsmart your enemy and plug 50 shots into him/her.
1 Skulk is !> 1 Marine.
You want the sides to be played differently because playing one side isn't playing all the sides (like in SC, WC3, CS, etc). Games like these are old-school as proposed to what the god Flayra has done for game play. Nothing can equate to the vastness of playability in NS. Playing Marine or Alien makes it a completely different game from the other side. This is what alot of us have yearned for in a game.
Now that we have it, some of us have the tenacitcy to call it a balance issue. The fact that the PLAYERS are not use to this vast playability really effects the stats. Too many people are brainwashed by CS and CS-like games were you just get on the same team as your friend but both sides are played the same way (run and shoot, try not to die). That is not the case in NS though, you have to play as a team (marine) or be a lone warrior who only wants to get kills (alien).
But aliens aren't easy to get kills if you have the experience with skulks. Marines can easily plow down a row of skulks, but a skulk can do that same thing if he/she gets the jump on a group of marines building.
Bottom line? Game is Fine. Players need to conform to this new type of game.
p.s The key to success is sneakiness. "I am vedy vedy Sneaky sir." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
In a game with so much depth and variance as NS, it seems to me that the only true measure of overall balance is the win percentages. In a game where one team is pitted against another, there can be no more definitive bottom line than "who wins more often."