Win Percentages
Zdrone
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3914Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3914Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">The life of a public server.</div> Another thread got me interested as to the percentage of wins on my servers. As I have an aversion to stats, I haven't checked how things are going until today.
I pulled the logs from all 3 of my servers down locally (hate adding more cpu load on the servers) and ran them with interesting (to me) results.
Almost every game I get in to, I watch people pile into the Marine portal as though its the only team they can play. I figured that meant that the Marines typically win...
Wrong.
Actually, the Aliens win about 70% of the games on my 2, 18 person servers. Some maps that I always thought were good for the Marines are exactly the opposite.
Hera for example; Aliens win 68% of the time. I've always considered this a Marine map with "Central Processing" being the key.
Remember, all 3 are public servers so the abilites may vary. I do have quite a few excellent regulars and the skill levels are improving all the time.
H2O-4 18 person
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
(didn't have nothing in the cycle... fixed now)
H2O-5 18 person
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%
On my 30 (now 24) person server, the Marines have an advantage (probably due to respawn rates).
H2O-7 30 person (now 24)
Hera Marine: 46.53%
Tanith Marine: 48.04%
Bast Marine: 48.15%
Caged Marine: 60.00%
nancy Marine: 61.17%
Nothing Marine: 70.87%
Eclipse Marine: 71.70%
Im going to make some small changes (thru plugins) to help out the Marines *slightly* and see where things go...
I pulled the logs from all 3 of my servers down locally (hate adding more cpu load on the servers) and ran them with interesting (to me) results.
Almost every game I get in to, I watch people pile into the Marine portal as though its the only team they can play. I figured that meant that the Marines typically win...
Wrong.
Actually, the Aliens win about 70% of the games on my 2, 18 person servers. Some maps that I always thought were good for the Marines are exactly the opposite.
Hera for example; Aliens win 68% of the time. I've always considered this a Marine map with "Central Processing" being the key.
Remember, all 3 are public servers so the abilites may vary. I do have quite a few excellent regulars and the skill levels are improving all the time.
H2O-4 18 person
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
(didn't have nothing in the cycle... fixed now)
H2O-5 18 person
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%
On my 30 (now 24) person server, the Marines have an advantage (probably due to respawn rates).
H2O-7 30 person (now 24)
Hera Marine: 46.53%
Tanith Marine: 48.04%
Bast Marine: 48.15%
Caged Marine: 60.00%
nancy Marine: 61.17%
Nothing Marine: 70.87%
Eclipse Marine: 71.70%
Im going to make some small changes (thru plugins) to help out the Marines *slightly* and see where things go...
Comments
I pulled the logs down to my pc and ran psychostats on all 3 sets.
isn't that kinda redundent?
In keeping with Zdrone's numbers, the public server I admin at, Chicago Mayhem NS (16 player maximum), stats for 1.04 so far:
Games Completed: 833
Avg. Game Time: 24 Mins. 17 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 83.43%
Win/Lose % Marines: 16.57%
ns_caged (118 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 23 Mins. 31 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 84.75%
Win/Lose % Marines: 15.25%
ns_eclipse (114 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 24 Mins. 41 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 83.33%
Win/Lose % Marines: 16.67%
ns_europa (97 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 24 Mins. 34 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 78.35%
Win/Lose % Marines: 21.65%
ns_hera (113 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 25 Mins. 23 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 82.3%
Win/Lose % Marines: 17.7%
ns_nancy (93 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 26 Mins. 14 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 86.02%
Win/Lose % Marines: 13.98%
ns_nothing (95 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 25 Mins. 29 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 70.53%
Win/Lose % Marines: 29.47%
ns_tanith (100 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 23 Mins. 55 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 88%
Win/Lose % Marines: 12%
ns_bast (103 games)
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Avg. Game Time: 20 Mins. 44 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 93.2%
Win/Lose % Marines: 6.8%
I guess this needs some subtle re-balancing.
You can still enjoy a game you loose, and if you win as marines then it's even more rewarding that you've had to work for it. While there are people clammering to be marines I dont think they should make it any easier to win.
Great job anyway! I hope more admins post their win statistics!
Who is surprised?
Nothing to see here...move along.
How bout next time, when you see the phrase "public server" in the title of the post, YOU move along. Obviously there are others that are interested.
16 player server. Notice the marines win about 25% of the time.
I'm convinced its not a problem with the game, rather it's a problem with the players I usually see on marines. They ignore the commander, or in the rare case that they obey the commander, he's an idiot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, when the marines have their act together and the commander knows what he's doing, it's much more of a toss-up between who wins.
However, when the marines have their act together and the commander knows what he's doing, it's much more of a toss-up between who wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. I believe the balance issues (every single one of them, except for the sensory chamber) lie within the players' abilities and attitudes.
Whenever I first played Natural Selection I was convinced that people would have a more difficult time picking up the Kharaa. It seems to have turned out to be the opposite. Despite the differences between the Kharaa and the typical deathmatch-style, players seem to be better at them than Marines. Despite the fact that players are used to playing with guns instead of melee weapons (most players, anyway; I am making a generalization), they have more trouble winning as Marines.
You don't play on those servers, so you have no idea, do you? That kind of smug attitude is what's keeping players away from N-S.
People don't just decide to join an organized group of players or a clan and magically become good at the game. They download it, play on some publics and decide if they want to devote time to it. If the public server experience is crap, then people will just uninstall it and go away. Right now, the experience for marines is junk on these servers. If this trend continues, many server ops will stop running N-S entirely, further limiting the intrduction of N-S to players. I know the guy who pays for Chi Mayhem is frustrated to no end by these statistics.
In any case, many public servers attract a hardcore group of regular players, ones that play at a single server whenever possible, it seems unlikely that those players all join aliens all the time, resulting in the 75-85 percent victories for aliens on small to medium public servers. If the theory that public servers are all idiots is true, than isn't it likely that the idiocy on each team will balance out a little more evenly?
That stupid attitude also ignores the contention that public servers with larger playerlimits see much more even victory totals. if that's the case, then the problem isn't public servers, is it? Then the problem is that marines face an unfair disadvantage when there are 9 or fewer players on a team, something that maybe could be addressed.
You don't play on those servers, so you have no idea, do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your inflammatory opening statement is not only inappropriate, but incorrect. Many of us play on our own servers, and the servers of the other operators on this board, regularly, as well as random pubs. We do have a good idea of the skill levels out there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That kind of smug attitude is what's keeping players away from N-S.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think our attitudes have an iota of impact. I have absolutely no contact with the vast majority of gamers. How is my attitude going to sway them against playing NS?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In any case, many public servers attract a hardcore group of regular players, ones that play at a single server whenever possible, it seems unlikely that those players all join aliens all the time, resulting in the 75-85 percent victories for aliens on small to medium public servers. If the theory that public servers are all idiots is true, than isn't it likely that the idiocy on each team will balance out a little more evenly?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes and no. I have a favorite public server that I spend most of my time on (and it's not mine). There are quite a few regulars on that server, with a fairly high skill level, so that teamplay (and a little luck) determines the outcome of most games. I would venture a guess that marines win about roughly half the time. When I hop onto other pubs, the majority of the players have a significantly lower skill level than the regulars I'm used to playing with, and have poor ability to work as part of a team. In the absence of coordination and skill (on both sides), the Kharaa have an advantage. Thus, the pub win ratios that have been reported.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That stupid attitude also ignores the contention that public servers with larger playerlimits see much more even victory totals. if that's the case, then the problem isn't public servers, is it? Then the problem is that marines face an unfair disadvantage when there are 9 or fewer players on a team, something that maybe could be addressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show me data that larger pub servers have even win ratios. I do believe that larger games adjust the scales positively for the marines, but I don't believe small team sizes are the dominating cause of marine losses. The server I frequent maxes out at 12 pub players, and is full for most of the post-work hours, with an additional VIP usually occupying a reserved slot. Like I stated before, the marines win significantly more there than I see on other pubs. My many hours of gaming there lead me to believe that the major contributing factor is marine teamwork.
But all this is fairly obvious, and has been covered many times on these boards. On public servers, where the majority of the players are strangers to each other, and have trouble (for whatever reason) working together, the Kharaa playstyle has a significant advantage.
Aren't the two kind of the same thing?
Meaning, the fact that marines are more dependent on teamwork than aliens, IS a game balance issue. It seems obvious from all the stats posted here, that if each team is equally skilled, marines will most likely lose. How can that not be a balance issue?
I also tend to think that this same imbalance would show up in controlled clan play, too. Everyone is making the assumption that in clan matches and such, the level of skill on the marine side will be higher overall, and thus marines won't get stomped as much. Assuming that's correct, won't the level of skill be elevated on the alien side also? If so, won't the 74%/25% loss/win ratio for marines still hold up? Or are we thinking there's some plateau of teamwork that cannot be overcome on the alien side, thus tipping the scales towards the marines as the overall skill levels on each team increase?
This is not a flame, nor is it a complaint about the balance of NS. It rocks the way it is, as far as I'm concerened. I love playing aliens when I want to feel like we're dominating. I love playing marines when I want to go for a glorious victory against the odds.
I'm just curious about some people's thinking on the topic.
P.S. - I play regularly on CHI Mayhem as well, and we often have a good marine team that listens to the experienced commander, yet the marines still lose about 75% of the games. I feel this is because the alien team usually has a decent number of skilled players on it too.
But its the gun-ho additudes of CS,DoD, BF1942, etc to name a few that take away from the sneaky factor....Flayra didn't put silence for aliens because he needed a 3rd option for movemnent chambers. Nor Cloaking for Senosry. He put them there so aliens could be sneaky too. Marines are sneaky sneaky if you don't jump around waiting for a TF, or not shooting at every alien u see run by.
I think this is how Flayra ment us to play the game, IMO, and not Gun-Ho style.
In summary, i think its a players playing style that needs to change. The game is fine. Although....there are still balance issues with fades.....6v6.....u have maybe 3 marines at a time....easy for a fade. 10v10, fade doesn't stand much of a chance...turned into a pencil....
but thats just another subject.
Aren't the two kind of the same thing?
Meaning, the fact that marines are more dependent on teamwork than aliens, IS a game balance issue. It seems obvious from all the stats posted here, that if each team is equally skilled, marines will most likely lose. How can that not be a balance issue? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The marines often fail to use all the tools at their disposal. Like the commanders who forget to upgrade armor and weapons. Or the marines who fail to use the resource that is their teammates, instead expecting their own "skillz" to win the day. You know, the bouncing marine who blocks your line of fire as you try to cut down the skulk rushing down the hall. If the balance was adjusted so that a poorly-played marine team could still win, a well-played marine team will then dominate every game.
My humble opinion is that the balance is pretty good where it's at. From what I've seen, the average commanding and cooperative skills of Random Pub Player are slowly increasing with time, and subsequently the marine's win ratio is slowly growing. The Kharaa win more now because the common FPS player already has the skill and mindset that mates well with the alien units. The NS player base is still in its infancy; give the players some more time to learn.
On a 4 player game,aliens were getting 2 res per RT and marines were getting 1.Naturally the game balance was screwed so badly in the aliens favour they had 2nd hive all turreted up and hive building in 5 minutes.....
Im ASSUMING,that since more players = more res,that when marines get 2 res per RT,the aliens are getting 3.Which is kinda bad.....
Could anyone do a DEFINATE check?
Excellent point. There are many more strategies for how to spend your resources on the marine side. I guess you could say it has a steeper learning curve, thus a newbie marine team is more likely to lose than a newbie alien team. Just thinking out loud here ...
The Welder. Sure....they give a dude a welder who welds the IPs and Armory. What about the other 6 tf? This marine is never put onto perminate detail of welding....on Hera, this is the most important person IMO. Marines lose alot of ground because of that single skulk. every team of 2, 1 should have a welder to fix marine stucts and weld vents.
I don't see this very often because everyone is use to TFC turrets that are nearly invincable and kill skulls in under a second. Turrets are only good if they hold still usually.
ALot of players don't realize it either. Again, just to prove the point its skill and not the game balance.
<a href='http://ns1.underg.net/~stats/maps.html' target='_blank'>http://ns1.underg.net/~stats/maps.html</a>
Excellent point. There are many more strategies for how to spend your resources on the marine side. I guess you could say it has a steeper learning curve, thus a newbie marine team is more likely to lose than a newbie alien team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Marines have a steeper learning curve." That's exactly what I was alluding to, but failed to explicitly state.
Again, a skill issue that only applies to one team IS a game balance issue ALSO. The two are not mutually exclusive.