<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->....No they don't. You only think that because every game you spam acid rockets, try a game with just blink and swipe and blah blah yadda yadda.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a pretty big assumption for someone who has never seen me play. I can blink/swipe as well as the next man given an area that isnt full of blink traps (hello mr railing). Blink and swipe is a nice way of beating your fellow fades to a kill when you're in the process of mowing down basic marines for kicks and trying to up your frag score.
Blinking your way into a pack of marines who are upgraded to the point that they are actually capable of fighting you, 1on1, close range, is a good way of wasting 54 res. To fight a good late game marine team, you need a little more finess than running directly into them and slashing away. At least half the true effectiveness of a 2 hive alien team comes from the available support, not the ablility to tank and slash at point blank range. When you dive straight in with blink you are not benefitting from umbra, you are not benefitting from gorge healing, you're not using your range advantage or your hit and run ability. A HA/HMG marine tanks better than a fade, and deals more damage at mid-close range, they are also cheaper. A group of HA/HMG have the ability to focus fire and weld eachother mid fight. They spawn faster than you, and have no evolution time. By blinking straight into them you are fighting them on their grounds, in the situation they excel at.
If you want to fight this team cost effectively you have to use the advantages that 2 hive aliens have over them: mobility, range and support. You need to use umbra, web, acid rockets, you need gorges healing you in the field, you need to force them to come to you by engaging them in a situation they are least effective in. And when they try to charge you down, while webbed in an umbra cloud and being health sprayed to death, then you can bring out the claws. And sensory does not help you do this in any way.
Blink/swipe owns basic marines, because as a carapace fade versus basic marines you have the ability to chomp your way through 5/6 of them at a time without worrying about dying. If you are a fade versus basic marines, it doesn't matter wether you have sensory or movement, but to compare strategic options in a situation where you have already won is meaningless.
Well, yeah, it depends on the fade really. Your average fade isn't a melee fighter. A good melee fade (as in gets celerity and rarely uses acid rocket) should be a match for a HA\HMG. It's very hard, but should be about even.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Jan 30 2003, 05:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jan 30 2003, 05:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's very hard, but should be about even. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm, if you don't mind me asking, if killing a HA/HMG with a melee fade is "very hard" how can it be "about even"? :)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Blinking your way into a pack of marines who are upgraded to the point that they are actually capable of fighting you, 1on1, close range<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you tried tossing two or three acid rockets before you go in? That usually works for me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. A group of HA/HMG have the ability to focus fire and weld eachother mid fight. They spawn faster than you, and have no evolution time. By blinking straight into them you are fighting them on their grounds, in the situation they excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who would be dumb enough to blink into a group of HA/HMG marines?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And sensory does not help you do this in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're right sensory doesn't help <i>with base seiges</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but to compare strategic options in a situation where you have already won is meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with sensory. These days, Marine teams reloacate about 85% of the time, and then what good does sensory do to keep them confined in their base. Unless you keep them in their orginal base at the very start, your pretty much screwed.
Or you can keep them contained in a new base that has about two or three entrances...The reason why marines relocate is so they can move to an easier held position, or not ten or twelve ways aliens can come from. So sometimes, when the marines locate it makes it slightly easier to contain.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 30 2003, 12:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 30 2003, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Jan 30 2003, 05:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jan 30 2003, 05:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's very hard, but should be about even. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm, if you don't mind me asking, if killing a HA/HMG with a melee fade is "very hard" how can it be "about even"? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a... good point.
I wonder what I was on about...... Possibly that it's hard but it's not impossibly hard? That it's fair how hard it is? I don't know <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes sensory first CAN win games. (can be more fun aswell). BUT, NO! Sensory first is NOT better than Def first because you lose versatility.
Some turret farms HAVE to be spammed down, Some marine teams can scan, can use MT and will not be attal phased by your sudden appearence behind them.
Some lerk players acctually like to be able to fly propperly.
Some skulk players acctually like to be able to kill an instellation. (yea you can do it with sensory, but hell your sensory doesn't help you in the slightest)
The big problem is with def, you can pick a spot (even a corner will do) and ambush the marines, this allows you to close the distance to nearly nothing.
With cloaking you can pick a spot slightly easier and close the distance to also nearly nothing.
However with def you can take 19 bullets, and with sens you can't.
Stupid argument that defense is for negating own lack of skill is just plain stupid. Defense is for negating marine good aim. And yeah sensory is plain stupid. They just go and take both hives. And don't try that "u are a noob" BS Crisgo. If anybody here is a noob, that's you, playing on noob servers and winning with sensory and then u think how 1337 u are. I am often the alien with most kills often after fades got out, and I achieve it by getting carapace and assaulting marines not waiting cloaked around their bases and letting them tech. And I often kill 2 marines alone if I ambush, and I can ambush without stinking cloak. Sensory is for noobies who can't ambush without cloak. I will post a link to demos proving that u can ambush just as good with carapace as with cloak but killing(completing ambush) more successfully.
There is some truely idiotic reasoning in this thread.
Aliens are a reactive race, the amount of strategic options they have from the beginning of the game are limited, and their tactics change on the fly to react to marine movements. Gorge build orders are pretty much set, and there isnt enough res to make interesting variations, unlike the marine commander who has assloads of options available to him regarding what he builds and where he moves his forces.
For the early game then, alien 'strategy' is basically limited to reacting to marine movements. It's all well and good saying you go sens and "play a different way", but when it comes down to it, the way you have to play depends on what the marines do. You do not have ultimate control over how the game pans out, which means you need to be flexible. The 2 best upgrades in NS are carapace at 1-hive and adrenaline at 2-hive, they are the most effective upgrades because they are generic. They improve the fighting ability of a class in any situation, which means they allow you to be flexible and versatile. Simply the fact that they are generic and viable in any circumstance would be enough to make them good upgrades, but in addition to that they are also so potent - that they equal or outperform any other upgrade even in that upgrade's specialized role.
Taking cloaking over carapace greatly limits the roles you can be effective in. If you had the option of only playing the role your upgrade is most effective in this would not be a problem - but you don't. To quote someone somewhere, "No strategy survives the first 5 minutes". To suggest that you can always succeed in containing marines in their base - despite the fact that marines can completely relocate before it is even possible to have cloaking. And that clan experience suggests early game marines, assisted by scanner sweeps are capable of taking almost any location they need to short of right outside the alien hive. Is naive. What's more, even in the few, limited roles where cloaking is useful, carapace can be used to comparable or greater effect simply because it is such a powerful ability. 19 bullets vs. 9 bullets? Yes plz.
Cloaking has hard counters, carapace doesn't. Cloaking is only effective in a limited number of situations, carapace is strong in any scenario. Cloaking becomes significantly less effective as the game drags on, carapace becomes more effective. Defence chambers provide valuable early defence for your main hive, Sensory chambers are the most worthless building in NS. Carapace is taken as standard at the highest levels of clan play where teams play to win rather than to sound cool by doing something original, cloaking....isn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think Sensory is greater than Def. I just think it deserves a better place than than the last hive relegation the Adren obsessives give it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the same time, i'm not suggesting cloaking is a worthless ability, or that you can never win with sense but...
I'm quite confident that Def is a better first chamber choice. Someone will be wanting to say "it depends" here, but does it really depend? NS doesn't really have much of a countering system, at least not as far as upgrades are concerned. Marines don't change their entire gameplan based on what chamber you took first. If there was a hard counter system, and chambers were significantly more/less effective depending on how the game is going then you could make the argument that "It depends" much like you can in a typical RTS. But there isnt a strong counter system in place, and certainly no decisions that occur that early in the game will be enough to swing a decision. Because of this i feel secure in saying that in the current version of NS, there *IS* a best chamber order. Or at least, a best first chamber choice, given the information available to you. The only other variable in the picture is individual player skill, but looking at both pub play and clan play i don't see this being part of the picture. Defence first in favoured in clan play, and its definately favoured on pubs.
While im sure you can play a very potent fade at 2 hive with cara/cloak, this sort of playing style seems to go against the entire point of 1-hive sens, and 2 hive aliens in general. If there is any valid argument for sens first it's for an early 2nd hive. Sens can be effective after only 10 res worth of chamber, you don't need lv2/3, meaning you can place just 1 chamber and then save for the hive. The idea being to try and get the 2nd hive up faster, and the advantage of an early 2nd hive is you have a greater tech avantage over the marines and can hit them earlier, before they have high level upgrades.... Which is why the idea of transitioning into a cloak-orientated fade at the 2nd hive is so strange. At a time when you should be trying to assault marine bases as quickly as possible, while your tech advantage is at its greatest, it doesn't make sense to play a style that involves waiting for things to come to you, and is focused on containment. Containment should really be the last thing on your mind when you have early fades, killing them before they start dropping HMG/JP is a priority.
As for adrenaline, how often do you play lerk? I don't like the idea of labbelling people by whatever chamber they think is most effective. 2 Hive lerk is very weak without adrenaline, you don't have the energy to fly and fire, and you can't keep umbra up unless you forgoe your ability to shoot/escape.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
You did SEE my sig didn't you? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, I prefer Lerk, but use more Bite than Spike.
I guess I'm just melee obsessed. And I use glide a lot. With a decent glide/drop, you can double bite (& therefore kill) the average marine before he hits you. And if you have any Fades about, a quick melee range drop onto a TF then Umbra lets you get bites in first, and the Fades can stop being acid spamming losers & pile in. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
(Must advertsie, last night got a fly-by bite kill on a Jper! Wheee!)
NB. Yes, I'm sure some 1337 person will say how they get 20 per game, but I don't care. I was impressed, okay?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
That's probably because my play is a little too solo in all honesty when I'm alien.
But beating the score count on the team Fades has got to be bad for Marine morale.
So I consider myself team 'terror trooper' <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know [NBK] must be a pretty common tag, but i remember a clan [NBK] who dabbled in Q3F for a bit some time ago. They left before beta 2 but im not sure where they went, that wouldn't be you lot would it?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Nah, we're a group of UK AHL players with too much Twitch gaming on us, so we decided to band together (In AHL we're drawn from 4 different clans) to form an NS one.
Seemed like a good idea at the time anyway. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
We don't clanmatch atm because we just have no organization whatsoever, but I'd like to say we've got decent players at least. Just no organization to get into games (Once we're all in, we're great. It's just getting us all in there)
On the Lerk point. I think it'd become a lot more popular if people realised how evil as a non-support terror troop the Lerk can be.
Bite nearly as good as skulk, speed is higher, and angles of attack is MUCH higher. Sure, you can't assault like skulks can (unless some are wandering in with you) but I've pulled Umbra bombing runs on marine spawns before, bit 3-4 marines, and flew out again before they really were able to react properly. You can if you're careful in flight make a mockery of most base defenses. With skulk support, you're a death machine.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Feb 10 2003, 07:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Feb 10 2003, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There is some truely idiotic reasoning in this thread.
Aliens are a reactive race, the amount of strategic options they have from the beginning of the game are limited, and their tactics change on the fly to react to marine movements. Gorge build orders are pretty much set, and there isnt enough res to make interesting variations, unlike the marine commander who has assloads of options available to him regarding what he builds and where he moves his forces.
For the early game then, alien 'strategy' is basically limited to reacting to marine movements. It's all well and good saying you go sens and "play a different way", but when it comes down to it, the way you have to play depends on what the marines do. You do not have ultimate control over how the game pans out, which means you need to be flexible. The 2 best upgrades in NS are carapace at 1-hive and adrenaline at 2-hive, they are the most effective upgrades because they are generic. They improve the fighting ability of a class in any situation, which means they allow you to be flexible and versatile. Simply the fact that they are generic and viable in any circumstance would be enough to make them good upgrades, but in addition to that they are also so potent - that they equal or outperform any other upgrade even in that upgrade's specialized role.
Taking cloaking over carapace greatly limits the roles you can be effective in. If you had the option of only playing the role your upgrade is most effective in this would not be a problem - but you don't. To quote someone somewhere, "No strategy survives the first 5 minutes". To suggest that you can always succeed in containing marines in their base - despite the fact that marines can completely relocate before it is even possible to have cloaking. And that clan experience suggests early game marines, assisted by scanner sweeps are capable of taking almost any location they need to short of right outside the alien hive. Is naive. What's more, even in the few, limited roles where cloaking is useful, carapace can be used to comparable or greater effect simply because it is such a powerful ability. 19 bullets vs. 9 bullets? Yes plz.
Cloaking has hard counters, carapace doesn't. Cloaking is only effective in a limited number of situations, carapace is strong in any scenario. Cloaking becomes significantly less effective as the game drags on, carapace becomes more effective. Defence chambers provide valuable early defence for your main hive, Sensory chambers are the most worthless building in NS. Carapace is taken as standard at the highest levels of clan play where teams play to win rather than to sound cool by doing something original, cloaking....isn't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ....You are... TEH man....
You stated it clearly, people who do sensory to try to look cool shouldn't play on pubs in my opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->people who do sensory to try to look cool shouldn't play on pubs in my opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> /rolleyes Flamebaiter....
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Feb 10 2003, 06:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 10 2003, 06:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->people who do sensory to try to look cool shouldn't play on pubs in my opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> /rolleyes Flamebaiter.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then I withdraw from the comment.
Hmm lots of daft and stupid comments being posted here lol all I can say is that it comes down to the playing style of the team and if they can work together or not. My favourite build order at the moment is M/S/D, it's risky and requires us to maintain the initiative by constantly ambushing the marines by using silence. Once the second hive went up we were able to combine cloaking with silence which in my opinion is the most awsome combination to have in the early game.
The only reason it's been working so well for us is because we could play as a team, we knew the location of our only gorg at all times for healing, the occasional skulk with celerity would rush the base and go for the obs tower to keep the marines from getting motion tracking and to remove scanner sweeps and the fact that the marines wern't expecting it. It caught them off guard and by the time they started looking over their backs for the silent skulks we had cloaking and by the time the 3rd hive was going up they couldn't even get out of their base. Most good marines I have seen have very good hearing (either that or they use stopsound) and can hear a skulk coming from quite far away silence gave us a critical edge in clearing out the first hive they had rushed.
Sensory isn't a totaly usless upgrade at the first hive it's just a big gamble because if you fail to get a second hive up you will be wishing you had carapace so you could chomp that turret and create a blind spot on the TF. Anything other than defensive at the first hive will require an organised team which sadly isn't going to be seen very much on pubs. One big advantage I saw from not going for defensive first was the res saved by not having to build defensive chambers to heal the offensive chambers. Res saved = second hive faster.
NS is still a new game and people tend to stick to what they know eg D/M/S and the average marine team will always expect this. Given time people on pubs will eventualy learn how to use different upgrade orders and how to counter them.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a pretty big assumption for someone who has never seen me play. I can blink/swipe as well as the next man given an area that isnt full of blink traps (hello mr railing). Blink and swipe is a nice way of beating your fellow fades to a kill when you're in the process of mowing down basic marines for kicks and trying to up your frag score.
Blinking your way into a pack of marines who are upgraded to the point that they are actually capable of fighting you, 1on1, close range, is a good way of wasting 54 res. To fight a good late game marine team, you need a little more finess than running directly into them and slashing away. At least half the true effectiveness of a 2 hive alien team comes from the available support, not the ablility to tank and slash at point blank range. When you dive straight in with blink you are not benefitting from umbra, you are not benefitting from gorge healing, you're not using your range advantage or your hit and run ability. A HA/HMG marine tanks better than a fade, and deals more damage at mid-close range, they are also cheaper. A group of HA/HMG have the ability to focus fire and weld eachother mid fight. They spawn faster than you, and have no evolution time. By blinking straight into them you are fighting them on their grounds, in the situation they excel at.
If you want to fight this team cost effectively you have to use the advantages that 2 hive aliens have over them: mobility, range and support. You need to use umbra, web, acid rockets, you need gorges healing you in the field, you need to force them to come to you by engaging them in a situation they are least effective in. And when they try to charge you down, while webbed in an umbra cloud and being health sprayed to death, then you can bring out the claws. And sensory does not help you do this in any way.
Blink/swipe owns basic marines, because as a carapace fade versus basic marines you have the ability to chomp your way through 5/6 of them at a time without worrying about dying. If you are a fade versus basic marines, it doesn't matter wether you have sensory or movement, but to compare strategic options in a situation where you have already won is meaningless.
Erm, if you don't mind me asking, if killing a HA/HMG with a melee fade is "very hard" how can it be "about even"? :)
Have you tried tossing two or three acid rockets before you go in? That usually works for me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. A group of HA/HMG have the ability to focus fire and weld eachother mid fight. They spawn faster than you, and have no evolution time. By blinking straight into them you are fighting them on their grounds, in the situation they excel at.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who would be dumb enough to blink into a group of HA/HMG marines?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And sensory does not help you do this in any way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right sensory doesn't help <i>with base seiges</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but to compare strategic options in a situation where you have already won is meaningless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep.
Erm, if you don't mind me asking, if killing a HA/HMG with a melee fade is "very hard" how can it be "about even"? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a... good point.
I wonder what I was on about...... Possibly that it's hard but it's not impossibly hard? That it's fair how hard it is? I don't know <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Look Crisqo.
Ya wrong.
Simple as that.
Yes sensory first CAN win games. (can be more fun aswell).
BUT, NO! Sensory first is NOT better than Def first because you lose versatility.
Some turret farms HAVE to be spammed down,
Some marine teams can scan, can use MT and will not be attal phased by your sudden appearence behind them.
Some lerk players acctually like to be able to fly propperly.
Some skulk players acctually like to be able to kill an instellation. (yea you can do it with sensory, but hell your sensory doesn't help you in the slightest)
The big problem is with def, you can pick a spot (even a corner will do) and ambush the marines, this allows you to close the distance to nearly nothing.
With cloaking you can pick a spot slightly easier and close the distance to also nearly nothing.
However with def you can take 19 bullets, and with sens you can't.
BlueGhost
<a href='http://www.shambler.net/te-av.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/te-av.zip</a>
Take a look at the demo on ns_nancy and TE are the aliens.
Aliens are a reactive race, the amount of strategic options they have from the beginning of the game are limited, and their tactics change on the fly to react to marine movements. Gorge build orders are pretty much set, and there isnt enough res to make interesting variations, unlike the marine commander who has assloads of options available to him regarding what he builds and where he moves his forces.
For the early game then, alien 'strategy' is basically limited to reacting to marine movements. It's all well and good saying you go sens and "play a different way", but when it comes down to it, the way you have to play depends on what the marines do. You do not have ultimate control over how the game pans out, which means you need to be flexible. The 2 best upgrades in NS are carapace at 1-hive and adrenaline at 2-hive, they are the most effective upgrades because they are generic. They improve the fighting ability of a class in any situation, which means they allow you to be flexible and versatile. Simply the fact that they are generic and viable in any circumstance would be enough to make them good upgrades, but in addition to that they are also so potent - that they equal or outperform any other upgrade even in that upgrade's specialized role.
Taking cloaking over carapace greatly limits the roles you can be effective in. If you had the option of only playing the role your upgrade is most effective in this would not be a problem - but you don't. To quote someone somewhere, "No strategy survives the first 5 minutes". To suggest that you can always succeed in containing marines in their base - despite the fact that marines can completely relocate before it is even possible to have cloaking. And that clan experience suggests early game marines, assisted by scanner sweeps are capable of taking almost any location they need to short of right outside the alien hive. Is naive. What's more, even in the few, limited roles where cloaking is useful, carapace can be used to comparable or greater effect simply because it is such a powerful ability. 19 bullets vs. 9 bullets? Yes plz.
Cloaking has hard counters, carapace doesn't.
Cloaking is only effective in a limited number of situations, carapace is strong in any scenario.
Cloaking becomes significantly less effective as the game drags on, carapace becomes more effective.
Defence chambers provide valuable early defence for your main hive, Sensory chambers are the most worthless building in NS.
Carapace is taken as standard at the highest levels of clan play where teams play to win rather than to sound cool by doing something original, cloaking....isn't.
And Fades with cloak kick ****. Just I don't acid spam.
I don't think Sensory is greater than Def. I just think it deserves a better place than than the last hive relegation the Adren obsessives give it.
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At the same time, i'm not suggesting cloaking is a worthless ability, or that you can never win with sense but...
I'm quite confident that Def is a better first chamber choice. Someone will be wanting to say "it depends" here, but does it really depend? NS doesn't really have much of a countering system, at least not as far as upgrades are concerned. Marines don't change their entire gameplan based on what chamber you took first. If there was a hard counter system, and chambers were significantly more/less effective depending on how the game is going then you could make the argument that "It depends" much like you can in a typical RTS. But there isnt a strong counter system in place, and certainly no decisions that occur that early in the game will be enough to swing a decision. Because of this i feel secure in saying that in the current version of NS, there *IS* a best chamber order. Or at least, a best first chamber choice, given the information available to you. The only other variable in the picture is individual player skill, but looking at both pub play and clan play i don't see this being part of the picture. Defence first in favoured in clan play, and its definately favoured on pubs.
While im sure you can play a very potent fade at 2 hive with cara/cloak, this sort of playing style seems to go against the entire point of 1-hive sens, and 2 hive aliens in general. If there is any valid argument for sens first it's for an early 2nd hive. Sens can be effective after only 10 res worth of chamber, you don't need lv2/3, meaning you can place just 1 chamber and then save for the hive. The idea being to try and get the 2nd hive up faster, and the advantage of an early 2nd hive is you have a greater tech avantage over the marines and can hit them earlier, before they have high level upgrades.... Which is why the idea of transitioning into a cloak-orientated fade at the 2nd hive is so strange. At a time when you should be trying to assault marine bases as quickly as possible, while your tech advantage is at its greatest, it doesn't make sense to play a style that involves waiting for things to come to you, and is focused on containment. Containment should really be the last thing on your mind when you have early fades, killing them before they start dropping HMG/JP is a priority.
As for adrenaline, how often do you play lerk? I don't like the idea of labbelling people by whatever chamber they think is most effective. 2 Hive lerk is very weak without adrenaline, you don't have the energy to fly and fire, and you can't keep umbra up unless you forgoe your ability to shoot/escape.
Actually, I prefer Lerk, but use more Bite than Spike.
I guess I'm just melee obsessed. And I use glide a lot. With a decent glide/drop, you can double bite (& therefore kill) the average marine before he hits you. And if you have any Fades about, a quick melee range drop onto a TF then Umbra lets you get bites in first, and the Fades can stop being acid spamming losers & pile in. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
(Must advertsie, last night got a fly-by bite kill on a Jper! Wheee!)
NB. Yes, I'm sure some 1337 person will say how they get 20 per game, but I don't care. I was impressed, okay?
While i bite when the occasion calls for it, much of the time it doesn't. And at 2 hive, what you really need out of the team's lerk is alot of umbra.
Not meaning to be offensive, but your lerk play seems a tad solo orientated ;)
Not that going for fly-by bites on pub servers isn't highly entertaining.
But beating the score count on the team Fades has got to be bad for Marine morale.
So I consider myself team 'terror trooper' <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know [NBK] must be a pretty common tag, but i remember a clan [NBK] who dabbled in Q3F for a bit some time ago. They left before beta 2 but im not sure where they went, that wouldn't be you lot would it?
FWD/EvN TeoH
Seemed like a good idea at the time anyway. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
We don't clanmatch atm because we just have no organization whatsoever, but I'd like to say we've got decent players at least. Just no organization to get into games (Once we're all in, we're great. It's just getting us all in there)
On the Lerk point. I think it'd become a lot more popular if people realised how evil as a non-support terror troop the Lerk can be.
Bite nearly as good as skulk, speed is higher, and angles of attack is MUCH higher. Sure, you can't assault like skulks can (unless some are wandering in with you) but I've pulled Umbra bombing runs on marine spawns before, bit 3-4 marines, and flew out again before they really were able to react properly. You can if you're careful in flight make a mockery of most base defenses. With skulk support, you're a death machine.
Aliens are a reactive race, the amount of strategic options they have from the beginning of the game are limited, and their tactics change on the fly to react to marine movements. Gorge build orders are pretty much set, and there isnt enough res to make interesting variations, unlike the marine commander who has assloads of options available to him regarding what he builds and where he moves his forces.
For the early game then, alien 'strategy' is basically limited to reacting to marine movements. It's all well and good saying you go sens and "play a different way", but when it comes down to it, the way you have to play depends on what the marines do. You do not have ultimate control over how the game pans out, which means you need to be flexible. The 2 best upgrades in NS are carapace at 1-hive and adrenaline at 2-hive, they are the most effective upgrades because they are generic. They improve the fighting ability of a class in any situation, which means they allow you to be flexible and versatile. Simply the fact that they are generic and viable in any circumstance would be enough to make them good upgrades, but in addition to that they are also so potent - that they equal or outperform any other upgrade even in that upgrade's specialized role.
Taking cloaking over carapace greatly limits the roles you can be effective in. If you had the option of only playing the role your upgrade is most effective in this would not be a problem - but you don't. To quote someone somewhere, "No strategy survives the first 5 minutes". To suggest that you can always succeed in containing marines in their base - despite the fact that marines can completely relocate before it is even possible to have cloaking. And that clan experience suggests early game marines, assisted by scanner sweeps are capable of taking almost any location they need to short of right outside the alien hive. Is naive. What's more, even in the few, limited roles where cloaking is useful, carapace can be used to comparable or greater effect simply because it is such a powerful ability. 19 bullets vs. 9 bullets? Yes plz.
Cloaking has hard counters, carapace doesn't.
Cloaking is only effective in a limited number of situations, carapace is strong in any scenario.
Cloaking becomes significantly less effective as the game drags on, carapace becomes more effective.
Defence chambers provide valuable early defence for your main hive, Sensory chambers are the most worthless building in NS.
Carapace is taken as standard at the highest levels of clan play where teams play to win rather than to sound cool by doing something original, cloaking....isn't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
....You are... TEH man....
You stated it clearly, people who do sensory to try to look cool shouldn't play on pubs in my opinion.
/rolleyes
Flamebaiter....
/rolleyes
Flamebaiter.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I withdraw from the comment.
I'm still strongly against Sensory first though.
The only reason it's been working so well for us is because we could play as a team, we knew the location of our only gorg at all times for healing, the occasional skulk with celerity would rush the base and go for the obs tower to keep the marines from getting motion tracking and to remove scanner sweeps and the fact that the marines wern't expecting it. It caught them off guard and by the time they started looking over their backs for the silent skulks we had cloaking and by the time the 3rd hive was going up they couldn't even get out of their base. Most good marines I have seen have very good hearing (either that or they use stopsound) and can hear a skulk coming from quite far away silence gave us a critical edge in clearing out the first hive they had rushed.
Sensory isn't a totaly usless upgrade at the first hive it's just a big gamble because if you fail to get a second hive up you will be wishing you had carapace so you could chomp that turret and create a blind spot on the TF. Anything other than defensive at the first hive will require an organised team which sadly isn't going to be seen very much on pubs. One big advantage I saw from not going for defensive first was the res saved by not having to build defensive chambers to heal the offensive chambers. Res saved = second hive faster.
NS is still a new game and people tend to stick to what they know eg D/M/S and the average marine team will always expect this. Given time people on pubs will eventualy learn how to use different upgrade orders and how to counter them.