What i was trying to say is that we people who like to go sensory first and win, must be NS gods because for such an "easily countered" chamber we can still win. Can you understand that?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's fair enough, but so far there haven't been any cloaking tactics brought up on the forums which don't have flaws in them which can be picked up before even trying them out. If there are any viable sensory tactics I'd love to hear them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There havn't been any carapace tactics here either. You can argue that sensory is countered by cloaking, I can argue that carapace can be countered by marines sticking together and getting upgraded weapons.
To me, saying the only way to win is to make a defense chamber makes you more of a "noob" then me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW how does sensory help skulks rush a phasegate + TF early game? (and wat game doesnt this happen to?) Patience? Guerilla tactics? No death.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer your question though, the only way to get rid of the phase gate and TF is to do a massive rush with the skulks and the gorge if you wanted to. The skulks job is to clear out any of the marines and the gorge spams heal spray, hurting marines and healing skulks. Then, once the marines are dead, the remaining skulks CIRCLE STRAFE around turrets to kill them without being hit as much. Then, once the turrets are down, the phase gate is next, then the TF itself.
--EDIT-- I still need help with that avatar thing guys, it would be nice to see if someone actually helped me out with that problem...
Crisqo: How do you contain the marines in their base with sensory upgrade when the marines are not rubbish and hence use sensory sweeps?
How do you remove a marine phase gate installation with say 2 marines in residence and 3-5 others within 2-5 seconds time away. (thats befor they even put any turrets up).
If you can do the 1st PERFECTLY, then you've no need to do the second, but the chances are you've 'tested' sensory on a server of newbs because while I have NOT tested sensory in a clan match, I BELIVE IT WILL NOT WORK BECAUSE THEY WILL SCAN.
BlueGhost
Edit> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To answer your question though, the only way to get rid of the phase gate and TF <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can remove a phase installation with your intire team who don't have carapice and are gleaming no-use from their cloak, why not just rush their base at the start wiping them out utterly? Afterall they won't have turrets at the start and its likley they'll be building hence distracted...
Blueghost, in all seriousness, on a completely unrelated note, is "sod it" some british term or greeting? ...or is that just a typo. Here in America, "sod" is that pre-grown grass stuff that people buy for their lawns...maybe some international language barrier, like saying "I'm gonna go smoke a fag in the bathroom." (Stop giggling!)
Well have you tried "containing" the marines by ambushes after they leave the spawn? That normally sends them right back to there..unless they quit anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can remove a phase installation with your intire team who don't have carapice and are gleaming no-use from their cloak, why not just rush their base at the start wiping them out utterly? Afterall they won't have turrets at the start and its likley they'll be building hence distracted...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most aliens try that, they are called "skulk rushes." Sometimes they work sometimes they don't. The massive skulk rush on a marine outpost work is because they have a gorge with them, and they (usually) don't have their <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>E</b></span>ntire team there, sure they can get there through the phase gate but skulk teeth can make short work of any disorientated marines comming out of a phase gate, one by one, single file-like. Also there is a gorge healing them while dropping/building OC on the way so you don't really need carap<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>A</b></span>ce to take them down.<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> </span>
--Edit-- Well i figured out why my avatar wasn't working...no thanks to any of you people. Just thought you may want to know this in case someone DID try and help, you now know that it is no longer needed.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 23 2003, 09:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 23 2003, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well have you tried "containing" the marines by ambushes after they leave the spawn? That normally sends them right back to there..unless they quit anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can remove a phase installation with your intire team who don't have carapice and are gleaming no-use from their cloak, why not just rush their base at the start wiping them out utterly? Afterall they won't have turrets at the start and its likley they'll be building hence distracted...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most aliens try that, they are called "skulk rushes." Sometimes they work sometimes they don't. The massive skulk rush on a marine outpost work is because they have a gorge with them, and they (usually) don't have their <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>E</b></span>ntire team there, sure they can get there through the phase gate but skulk teeth can make short work of any disorientated marines comming out of a phase gate, one by one, single file-like. Also there is a gorge healing them while dropping/building OC on the way so you don't really need carap<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>A</b></span>ce to take them down.<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> </span>
--Edit-- Well i figured out why my avatar wasn't working...no thanks to any of you people. Just thought you may want to know this in case someone DID try and help, you now know that it is no longer needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Too bad those skulk rushes do not work versus anything more deadly than a stuffed panda. Hell, if the marine team has a third of their team there, they can still kill the entire kharaa team. (Assuming 2 kills lmg, 1 pistol). Having a gorge is pointless, due to it's lack of hitpoints, and the skulks are so fragile that they rarely get hurt. They either die or live 100%, 90% of the time. If the marines let the gorge finish building a single OC before they kill it, then the marines did not even have a chance in the first place. Gorge has 200 hps, armor included. That is 20 shots from the lmg. Almost like taking candy from a baby. (Think carapaced skulk, but fat AND slow).
How you play with DC and how you play with SC is totally different. Both are very good chambers, as I played a game earlier with 2 good teams in a 9v9 with sens first, and aliens whupped. If you have DC and you are holding back, you're a n00b. If you have SC and you are rushing, you're a n00b. So stop comparing the two, because they reinforce two totally different playing styles. Want to take installations out better? Get DC. Want to prevent the marines from building those installations? Get SC. And the Comm can't scan everything, especially in 1.04 with higher scan costs.
Even if the marines do scan a lot, that just means they're scared, which will slow them down a lot. The key to alien success is more to prevent marine growth than it is to actually attack marines. SC really helps to give the aliens time to build a 2nd hive, since it slows down marines quite a bit.
If you find yourself not able to win with sens first, the problem is your playing style, not the chamber. Adapt or die, because it's called Natural Selection for a reason.
I'll agree with you there, sens really arne't hat bad if your team is good, as long as I play in pubs, it will be defence chambers first for me however <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
//edit, isn't the next patch going to rebalance the upgrades so all 3 chambers are more balanced for early play?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Too bad those skulk rushes do not work versus anything more deadly than a stuffed panda. Hell, if the marine team has a third of their team there, they can still kill the entire kharaa team. (Assuming 2 kills lmg, 1 pistol).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, actually the massive skulk rush <i>will</i> sometimes work against a base where only part of the team is... But then again, I'm trying to argue with the person that says that everything but defense SUCKS and he alone can wipe out the entire alien team by himself...but we all knew THAT already.... And before you argue, "Well, then you're a n00b and you play on n00b servers with n00bs!" - well, for the most part, I DO play on public servers most of the time (mainly because I have some self dignity left and won't stoop to the loser-dom of having a serious "clan scrim" as they call them) and mass skulk rushes have worked surprisingly well and even against a "non-n00b" set of players, ...so please don't make the generalization that skulk rushes DO NOT work.
-Edit-
Once again to Blue Ghost - anything on that "sod it" thing yet?
And if anyone can interpret zippy's broken and poorly spelled post, they are a better man than I.
Oh, by the way, TickTock has the best post yet on this. I couldn't have said it better myself. (mainly because most of my posts are jaded with the hate and anger towards the people that say that sensory doesn't (or can't) work)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->fades need adreniline, atm though sens are usless<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>NO </span> <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>NO </span>. Fades don't <i>need</i> andrenaline. People who think they need andren are the people who just spam acid rocket. Blink and swipe works just as good for killing stuff and its more fun because you get to go toe to toe with a marine instead of doing a lamer acid spam him from 3 feet off.
Note: Nothing is more difficult to counter then a cloaked fade (that hasn't been scanned) that blinks across the room and swipes you.
--Edit-- Preach on TickTock, Preach on. Lets see if your post will sink in...
In Pubs... DC's will rule. It's just the way it is. You can't rely on all your team mates having skill. A DC somewhat makes up for that. Sure sensory can work, but it all depends on the skill of the skulks. You braindead people arguing that "well I can use them more effectively so they are better" are just being ignorant of the fact that 50% of the people in pubs can't use them. Now the server I play on is quite skilled and those who aren't tend to get frustrated and leave. I can tell you though that we still have several members on a team who really don't have the patience or the skill to overcome the advantage of DC's. On an 8 man team that usually equates to 2 - 3. Well, 4 skulks around the entire map is not enough to overcome 7 marines.
If you are talking about a server where you can count on everyone then yes... sensory might work(still may not be "better" the defensive, but thats up to you).
<!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Jan 24 2003, 04:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Jan 24 2003, 04:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, actually the massive skulk rush <i>will</i> sometimes work against a base where only part of the team is... But then again, I'm trying to argue with the person that says that everything but defense SUCKS and he alone can wipe out the entire alien team by himself...but we all knew THAT already.... And before you argue, "Well, then you're a n00b and you play on n00b servers with n00bs!" - well, for the most part, I DO play on public servers most of the time (mainly because I have some self dignity left and won't stoop to the loser-dom of having a serious "clan scrim" as they call them) and mass skulk rushes have worked surprisingly well and even against a "non-n00b" set of players, ...so please don't make the generalization that skulk rushes DO NOT work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So do you have any argument whatsoever against the fact of cloaking skulks not being able to rush a base/outpost.
Ok, I was assuming good players. Good marines > good skulks with cloaking. Then even the "sensory is good" people say that sensory is bad on a pub server because not everyone can use it effectively. This is slightly amusing. Now we have sensory officially sucking on good and bad servers.
I NEVER said that I encourage people to rush with sensory, so no I don't have an argument, mainly because I NEVER SAID IT...Once again, I encourage you to read TickTock's post, it really sums it all up. And before you try to retort with more clever arguments for defense, please remember...I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST IT!! Defense works quite well, and since most people can't accept that sensory is a viable choice, I'm all but forced to use it all the time anyways...it wins some, it loses some...just like sensory...
It's just that it's one thing to <i>prefer</i> a chamber over another and state your reasons why you do so, but what you're doing is blatantly telling everyone that anything but the way YOU do it flat out sucks.
And don't give me this "I'm just here pointing out FATAL exploits in your tactic as constuctive criticism" - because you AREN'T. All you're doing is trying to put other people's preferences down and I DON'T believe the point of these forums is to say "Nya Nya, you suck and I don't!"
I apologize for my rant, but it's getting old seeing his tired arguments over and over again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You braindead people arguing that "well I can use them more effectively so they are better" are just being ignorant of the fact that 50% of the people in pubs can't use them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would 50% be an accurate estimate or just a random number you pulled out of your **** to attempt to make some sort of point? On a well populated server, you'd be quite surprised at how fast players learn. There will always be newbies, but we were all newbies at some point. Just because you don't know how to use all the chambers doesn't mean other people don't.
A lot of people seem to be under the mass delusional misconception that we have a long hallway, with a bunch of skulks at one end and a bunch of marines at the other. Last man standing wins. This is highly fallible logic. Yes, of course DC will work better in situations like this. But situations like this rarely happen, and it's only one scenario of many besides. Truth is, on a fair sized server with atleast average players, skulk rushes are a thing of the past. Marines expect skulk rushes now, and their spawn rate is so much faster than aliens that unless a rush kills EVERY marine, it will fail. The key to marine success good commanders are finding out depends on marine speed. They MUST move fast to secure hive 1 and then 2, to put a ceiling on the alien's tech tree. Even carapace really won't help skulks take out a moderately defended outpost that well, but cloak will do wonders in ambushing marines and keeping them penned in. Scent will help the aliens to keep track of marine movements, and tell which hive they are going for. (without them knowing, like parasite) Even with carapace, the ever so vital gorge is marine fodder, but give him scent, and he knows when he desperately has to throw down an OC to save his pudgy little tush. Or he can just build while cloaked, since using structures doesn't count as movement.
You say that just because we're good, doesn't mean most of the people in servers can learn how to use sensory. I turn that back on you. Just because you suck, doesn't mean most of the people in servers can't learn how to use sensory.
On a related note, MC's are good too. Nothing can jink and close like a celerity skulk. SEXY!
TickTock's post was pointless and completely useless. All it did was say that the only advantage of sensory was to contain marines.
"And don't give me this "I'm just here pointing out FATAL exploits in your tactic as constuctive criticism" - because you AREN'T."
So somehow, the one flaw which has been mentioned hundreds of times does not make sensory useless? Sensory would be useless if scanner sweep was 10 resources per sweep. Why? Because once the marines get somewhere they will not leave. Lets say we are playing on nancy. Your marines are heading to subspace. One sweep for the hallway right by the RT, one for messhall, one for the stairs up to and in mother interface, and one in the hive itself. That comes to 40 resources, and only 12 in 1.03. Then we go from subspace to port engine room. Two scans for the long hallways, one for room right outsides, and one inside. Wow, 80 resources for holding two hives indefinately! Hell, I would love the kharaa team for being stupid enough to get sensory. If you cant count, that comes to 24 resources in 1.03. More scans could be made to make sure that every single tiny corner does not have a skulk in it.
If not liking sensory was actually due to a matter of opinion, or playstyle, then it COULD be a good option, but because of extreme ease of marine counters, it is worthless.
A commander who is micro-managing his marine team by scanning everything constantly is ignoring other vital areas. Even a minor distraction like a lerk spiking a turret will pull his attention elsewhere instead of having him scan constantly. I don't know where you play, but while some commanders will scan more than others, none of them scan as much as you describe.
Hell, if the Comm IS scanning that much, have a few skulks rush his comm chair. That will bust his focus. I've won several times with sensory first against good, rushing, hive-stealing Comms. On large servers no less where marines get the advantage.
And if you do not understand the vital importance of containment in RTS location-sensitive Natural Selection, then I pray to god you are never my commander.
A group of marines walking through a map, and every single one of them are god like, much like yourself apparently. Your team walks toward the hive(s). The commander does the sweep along the way. Remember, most of the alien team is at this one pathway to the hive on the map. The commander does his sweep...
Skulk 1: "Hey, look at those blue waves coming right at us, you think we should change our locations and move?"
Skulk 2: "Nah, let's sit here and try to catch bullets in our oversized teeth..."
Then your marine team, with the information of the exact location of the aliens are, proceed to shoot every single skulk in the face with a light machine gun and finish the others off with a pistol or knife, with absolutely no resistance or moving from the aliens. You proceed to move in on the hive with no resistance or attacks from behind, you secure the hive with NO resistance, and then you march on down and do the same exact thing for the other hive, all the while protecting your base, getting resource nozzles, AND don't forget you sweep a room every two seconds to finish off the skulks that once again, just sit there and get shot in the face.
See anything wrong with that picture? I don't know what server you play on, but I'd like to know this mystical place where the commander can multitask everything at once with no problem, the marines all obey orders the first time, the marines have DEADLY ninja-quickness & accuracy that can put every single bullet into every skulk's slimy body, AND have skulks with Krazy Glue on their feet that sit there and get shot up rather than jump around like rabid wolverines while biting heads off. Also in your picture, the skulk team is a bunch of dribbling fools with no coordination or communication, and just attack the marines head on or hide long enough to get shot up like fishs in a barrel.
So let's consider...YOU saying that sensory (or movement for that matter) isn't a decision based on playing style, but it is just plain "worthless", OR the rest of the world that says that each one is viable as the next and it all is based on the game is played...
Please spare me of your response "SCANNER SWEEPZ PWNZ j00!" because one could counter that you just do the same exact thing to a carapaced skulk and find his hiding spot. Sure, it'll take more bullets, but your godly aim will require just an extra marine or two to get the job done.
Yeah I also don't think its fair that CanadianMonkey makes the alien team that goes sensory first have no coordination whatsoever and the marines are these über clan gods that can communicate by thought waves. Because the fact that sensory isn't so much for "n00bs" we can infer that intermidiates and better will use this. Therefore, the aliens have at least a midium to high amount of teamwork because they realize the value of reporting stuff in and marine movements. Also they are smart enough to MOVE OUT OF THE WAY OF BLUE LINES OF DEATH.
First of all, since when do I assume that the alien team has no coordination whatsoever? Oh wait, never. Your bad. If the skulks run from rooms pulsing with blue energy, then the marines move forward. Marines-1 aliens-0. Ok, You open up the "where do you get these uber marines" box. Well, I am obviously talking about a clan match, or pug of some sort. But then again, if there are bad morons on one team, then if we are assuming even teams, there are just as many on the other teams. 2-3 marines with scanning in front of them can break out of pretty much any alien containment with sensory on a pub.
Skulks without carapace die to normal marines almost every time. If they hide in wait, the little bit of ping lets the marines plug the aliens before they can react, and if the aliens rush, they simply cannot close the distance before they die.
Holding two hives does not require any extra RTs outside the hives themselves. Move to one hive, leave a small defense force. Marine team moves to hive, throws up phase gate, TF, 2 turrets both covering eachother and the TF (Corner placement is best obviously). Drop the RT, move to next hive. Your measly 2 marine defense team lose the base? Recycle everything before you lose it all, and relocate to your newly acquired hive, which has a TF and turrets for defense. After either scenario, move to next hive, and fortify there with turrets too. So TickTock reverts to rushing with his cloaking... Is that not what you just said was what a moron would do with sensory? Sensor sweeps reduce all that the aliens can do to rushing. Since they are rushing, they would be better off with carapace in the first place. Simple logic.
Or, you could just get to a point outside of the alien starting hive, and siege it. Either way, gg aliens.
It also amuses me to see that you say that "the rest of the world" thinks that sensory is a viable option. Show me a decent clan match where sensory is used effectively, and I will change my thoughts, but until then... No. I wonder why all good clans use defense? Possibly because it is the best? Oh yeah...
Because most clan matches are about as creative as bologna on white bread. Carapace can be broken down in terms of statistics. There is an obvious gain with carapace. Alien can now take x+% whatever hits more. The benefit of sensory is not statistical. It is not nearly as tangible, because its functionality depends on the way in which it is used, the map you are on, and the location you have set for ambush.
Clan matches are ALWAYS played by the numbers.
Oh, and love the circular logic - Why do all good clans use defense? - Because it's the best. - Why is it the best? - All good clans use it...
No one is trying to prove that Sensory is better than Defense. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Two VERY different uses. Only that it's a viable option depending on the team's play style.
Oh, and... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TickTock's post was pointless and completely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're a rude little whiny clanwhore. Buy a few manners next time you stop at the store to pick up a clue.[/rant]
<!--QuoteBegin--TickTock+Jan 25 2003, 12:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TickTock @ Jan 25 2003, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because most clan matches are about as creative as bologna on white bread. Carapace can be broken down in terms of statistics. There is an obvious gain with carapace. Alien can now take x+% whatever hits more. The benefit of sensory is not statistical. It is not nearly as tangible, because its functionality depends on the way in which it is used, the map you are on, and the location you have set for ambush.
Clan matches are ALWAYS played by the numbers.
Oh, and love the circular logic - Why do all good clans use defense? - Because it's the best. - Why is it the best? - All good clans use it...
No one is trying to prove that Sensory is better than Defense. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Two VERY different uses. Only that it's a viable option depending on the team's play style.
Oh, and... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TickTock's post was pointless and completely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're a rude little whiny clanwhore. Buy a few manners next time you stop at the store to pick up a clue.[/rant]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think that's true. Clanners are the most creative bunch in my opinion and they usually find the best options/bugs there are. The reason why clanmatches might (I haven't seen many) be "dull" and generic is because they've optimized their strategies and there isn't anything left that needs optimizing. This mod isn't THAT deep that you'd have to search 2000 years for new better solutions <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Mostly people discover the "best" strategies in a few weeks (in all RTS/FPS games I've played) and they aren't usually changed until patches are made to alter the game. A lot of items in a game easily create the illusion that the game itself is very "deep" and they have some purpose, but that, in my experience, has turned out to be a rather false belief. 1.04 doesn't sound drastic enough to make sensory more popular. To make "sneak attacks" with low health possible (and more useful over direct attacks!), they would probably have to change marine/alien speeds, reduce damages more or increase them to insane levels to make the game a lot slower in general. And naturally turn spawnrates to "once in a lifetime"-level to make deaths somewhat scary. The game simply seems far too fast-paced in publics to support "sneaks". I've tried sensory a few times and noticed this myself.
Someone already pointed out, Fades have more uses of DC and Motion Chamber to go offensive. If you go for DC next, you sacrifice Adrenaline and cripple Fade and Lerk. If you go for MC next, you cripppe any ability to heal outside the hive without gorges and wall of lame.
The reason almost every game go DC -> MC -> sensory isn't because players were afraid of changes. They found it really does work better that way most of the time, even if you may actually won with sensory sometime.
<!--QuoteBegin--TickTock+Jan 25 2003, 12:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TickTock @ Jan 25 2003, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and love the circular logic - Why do all good clans use defense? - Because it's the best. - Why is it the best? - All good clans use it...
No one is trying to prove that Sensory is better than Defense. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Two VERY different uses. Only that it's a viable option depending on the team's play style.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, the clans are an example of why carapace is best. If something does not work, clans are not going to use it.
It is not apples to oranges. It is more like rotten apple compared to a high quality orange. One is not going to be eaten, the other is. It is not a playstyle, sensory is just counterable with ease.
Sensory (as it exists in 1.04) is completely under-rated. Is it as useful as Defense? That depends. I would say yes if your Gorge is just going to build DCs next to the hive just for upgrades. I would say no if the Gorge is intelligent and uses them to fortify a forward location. Until you've been able to stand in the middle of a high traffic pathway and kill 2-3 marines before they realize what's going on, don't knock the new sensory. It may not be the best first chamber (when used at a forward location DCs are awesome), but it's a VERY viable second chamber now IMHO.
Edit: and of course with all upgrades, it depends on your players knowing how to take advantage of it.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That's fair enough, but so far there haven't been any cloaking tactics brought up on the forums which don't have flaws in them which can be picked up before even trying them out. If there are any viable sensory tactics I'd love to hear them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There havn't been any carapace tactics here either. You can argue that sensory is countered by cloaking, I can argue that carapace can be countered by marines sticking together and getting upgraded weapons.
Build def cham first, to do otherwise prooves your a n00b.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW how does sensory help skulks rush a phasegate + TF early game? (and wat game doesnt this happen to?) Patience? Guerilla tactics? No death.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To answer your question though, the only way to get rid of the phase gate and TF is to do a massive rush with the skulks and the gorge if you wanted to. The skulks job is to clear out any of the marines and the gorge spams heal spray, hurting marines and healing skulks. Then, once the marines are dead, the remaining skulks CIRCLE STRAFE around turrets to kill them without being hit as much. Then, once the turrets are down, the phase gate is next, then the TF itself.
--EDIT-- I still need help with that avatar thing guys, it would be nice to see if someone actually helped me out with that problem...
Crisqo:
How do you contain the marines in their base with sensory upgrade when the marines are not rubbish and hence use sensory sweeps?
How do you remove a marine phase gate installation with say 2 marines in residence and 3-5 others within 2-5 seconds time away. (thats befor they even put any turrets up).
If you can do the 1st PERFECTLY, then you've no need to do the second, but the chances are you've 'tested' sensory on a server of newbs because while I have NOT tested sensory in a clan match, I BELIVE IT WILL NOT WORK BECAUSE THEY WILL SCAN.
BlueGhost
Edit>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To answer your question though, the only way to get rid of the phase gate and TF <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can remove a phase installation with your intire team who don't have carapice and are gleaming no-use from their cloak, why not just rush their base at the start wiping them out utterly? Afterall they won't have turrets at the start and its likley they'll be building hence distracted...
Blueghost, in all seriousness, on a completely unrelated note, is "sod it" some british term or greeting? ...or is that just a typo. Here in America, "sod" is that pre-grown grass stuff that people buy for their lawns...maybe some international language barrier, like saying "I'm gonna go smoke a fag in the bathroom." (Stop giggling!)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can remove a phase installation with your intire team who don't have carapice and are gleaming no-use from their cloak, why not just rush their base at the start wiping them out utterly? Afterall they won't have turrets at the start and its likley they'll be building hence distracted...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most aliens try that, they are called "skulk rushes." Sometimes they work sometimes they don't. The massive skulk rush on a marine outpost work is because they have a gorge with them, and they (usually) don't have their <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>E</b></span>ntire team there, sure they can get there through the phase gate but skulk teeth can make short work of any disorientated marines comming out of a phase gate, one by one, single file-like. Also there is a gorge healing them while dropping/building OC on the way so you don't really need carap<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>A</b></span>ce to take them down.<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> </span>
--Edit--
Well i figured out why my avatar wasn't working...no thanks to any of you people. Just thought you may want to know this in case someone DID try and help, you now know that it is no longer needed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can remove a phase installation with your intire team who don't have carapice and are gleaming no-use from their cloak, why not just rush their base at the start wiping them out utterly? Afterall they won't have turrets at the start and its likley they'll be building hence distracted...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most aliens try that, they are called "skulk rushes." Sometimes they work sometimes they don't. The massive skulk rush on a marine outpost work is because they have a gorge with them, and they (usually) don't have their <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>E</b></span>ntire team there, sure they can get there through the phase gate but skulk teeth can make short work of any disorientated marines comming out of a phase gate, one by one, single file-like. Also there is a gorge healing them while dropping/building OC on the way so you don't really need carap<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b>A</b></span>ce to take them down.<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'> </span>
--Edit--
Well i figured out why my avatar wasn't working...no thanks to any of you people. Just thought you may want to know this in case someone DID try and help, you now know that it is no longer needed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too bad those skulk rushes do not work versus anything more deadly than a stuffed panda.
Hell, if the marine team has a third of their team there, they can still kill the entire kharaa team. (Assuming 2 kills lmg, 1 pistol). Having a gorge is pointless, due to it's lack of hitpoints, and the skulks are so fragile that they rarely get hurt. They either die or live 100%, 90% of the time. If the marines let the gorge finish building a single OC before they kill it, then the marines did not even have a chance in the first place. Gorge has 200 hps, armor included. That is 20 shots from the lmg. Almost like taking candy from a baby. (Think carapaced skulk, but fat AND slow).
Even if the marines do scan a lot, that just means they're scared, which will slow them down a lot. The key to alien success is more to prevent marine growth than it is to actually attack marines. SC really helps to give the aliens time to build a 2nd hive, since it slows down marines quite a bit.
If you find yourself not able to win with sens first, the problem is your playing style, not the chamber. Adapt or die, because it's called Natural Selection for a reason.
//edit, isn't the next patch going to rebalance the upgrades so all 3 chambers are more balanced for early play?
what you do it
DC
MC
and not do a SC when you get 3rd hive
so then if they take a hive bk, you still have a hive to fall bk on and replace the tech.
zippy
Hell, if the marine team has a third of their team there, they can still kill the entire kharaa team. (Assuming 2 kills lmg, 1 pistol).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, actually the massive skulk rush <i>will</i> sometimes work against a base where only part of the team is...
But then again, I'm trying to argue with the person that says that everything but defense SUCKS and he alone can wipe out the entire alien team by himself...but we all knew THAT already....
And before you argue, "Well, then you're a n00b and you play on n00b servers with n00bs!" - well, for the most part, I DO play on public servers most of the time (mainly because I have some self dignity left and won't stoop to the loser-dom of having a serious "clan scrim" as they call them) and mass skulk rushes have worked surprisingly well and even against a "non-n00b" set of players, ...so please don't make the generalization that skulk rushes DO NOT work.
-Edit-
Once again to Blue Ghost - anything on that "sod it" thing yet?
And if anyone can interpret zippy's broken and poorly spelled post, they are a better man than I.
No <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>NO </span> <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>NO </span>. Fades don't <i>need</i> andrenaline. People who think they need andren are the people who just spam acid rocket. Blink and swipe works just as good for killing stuff and its more fun because you get to go toe to toe with a marine instead of doing a lamer acid spam him from 3 feet off.
Note: Nothing is more difficult to counter then a cloaked fade (that hasn't been scanned) that blinks across the room and swipes you.
--Edit--
Preach on TickTock, Preach on. Lets see if your post will sink in...
If you are talking about a server where you can count on everyone then yes... sensory might work(still may not be "better" the defensive, but thats up to you).
But then again, I'm trying to argue with the person that says that everything but defense SUCKS and he alone can wipe out the entire alien team by himself...but we all knew THAT already....
And before you argue, "Well, then you're a n00b and you play on n00b servers with n00bs!" - well, for the most part, I DO play on public servers most of the time (mainly because I have some self dignity left and won't stoop to the loser-dom of having a serious "clan scrim" as they call them) and mass skulk rushes have worked surprisingly well and even against a "non-n00b" set of players, ...so please don't make the generalization that skulk rushes DO NOT work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So do you have any argument whatsoever against the fact of cloaking skulks not being able to rush a base/outpost.
Ok, I was assuming good players. Good marines > good skulks with cloaking.
Then even the "sensory is good" people say that sensory is bad on a pub server because not everyone can use it effectively.
This is slightly amusing. Now we have sensory officially sucking on good and bad servers.
And before you try to retort with more clever arguments for defense, please remember...I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST IT!! Defense works quite well, and since most people can't accept that sensory is a viable choice, I'm all but forced to use it all the time anyways...it wins some, it loses some...just like sensory...
It's just that it's one thing to <i>prefer</i> a chamber over another and state your reasons why you do so, but what you're doing is blatantly telling everyone that anything but the way YOU do it flat out sucks.
And don't give me this "I'm just here pointing out FATAL exploits in your tactic as constuctive criticism" - because you AREN'T.
All you're doing is trying to put other people's preferences down and I DON'T believe the point of these forums is to say "Nya Nya, you suck and I don't!"
I apologize for my rant, but it's getting old seeing his tired arguments over and over again.
Would 50% be an accurate estimate or just a random number you pulled out of your **** to attempt to make some sort of point? On a well populated server, you'd be quite surprised at how fast players learn. There will always be newbies, but we were all newbies at some point. Just because you don't know how to use all the chambers doesn't mean other people don't.
A lot of people seem to be under the mass delusional misconception that we have a long hallway, with a bunch of skulks at one end and a bunch of marines at the other. Last man standing wins. This is highly fallible logic. Yes, of course DC will work better in situations like this. But situations like this rarely happen, and it's only one scenario of many besides. Truth is, on a fair sized server with atleast average players, skulk rushes are a thing of the past. Marines expect skulk rushes now, and their spawn rate is so much faster than aliens that unless a rush kills EVERY marine, it will fail. The key to marine success good commanders are finding out depends on marine speed. They MUST move fast to secure hive 1 and then 2, to put a ceiling on the alien's tech tree. Even carapace really won't help skulks take out a moderately defended outpost that well, but cloak will do wonders in ambushing marines and keeping them penned in. Scent will help the aliens to keep track of marine movements, and tell which hive they are going for. (without them knowing, like parasite) Even with carapace, the ever so vital gorge is marine fodder, but give him scent, and he knows when he desperately has to throw down an OC to save his pudgy little tush. Or he can just build while cloaked, since using structures doesn't count as movement.
You say that just because we're good, doesn't mean most of the people in servers can learn how to use sensory. I turn that back on you. Just because you suck, doesn't mean most of the people in servers can't learn how to use sensory.
On a related note, MC's are good too. Nothing can jink and close like a celerity skulk. SEXY!
"And don't give me this "I'm just here pointing out FATAL exploits in your tactic as constuctive criticism" - because you AREN'T."
So somehow, the one flaw which has been mentioned hundreds of times does not make sensory useless?
Sensory would be useless if scanner sweep was 10 resources per sweep. Why? Because once the marines get somewhere they will not leave. Lets say we are playing on nancy. Your marines are heading to subspace. One sweep for the hallway right by the RT, one for messhall, one for the stairs up to and in mother interface, and one in the hive itself. That comes to 40 resources, and only 12 in 1.03. Then we go from subspace to port engine room. Two scans for the long hallways, one for room right outsides, and one inside. Wow, 80 resources for holding two hives indefinately! Hell, I would love the kharaa team for being stupid enough to get sensory. If you cant count, that comes to 24 resources in 1.03. More scans could be made to make sure that every single tiny corner does not have a skulk in it.
If not liking sensory was actually due to a matter of opinion, or playstyle, then it COULD be a good option, but because of extreme ease of marine counters, it is worthless.
Hell, if the Comm IS scanning that much, have a few skulks rush his comm chair. That will bust his focus. I've won several times with sensory first against good, rushing, hive-stealing Comms. On large servers no less where marines get the advantage.
And if you do not understand the vital importance of containment in RTS location-sensitive Natural Selection, then I pray to god you are never my commander.
A group of marines walking through a map, and every single one of them are god like, much like yourself apparently. Your team walks toward the hive(s). The commander does the sweep along the way. Remember, most of the alien team is at this one pathway to the hive on the map. The commander does his sweep...
Skulk 1: "Hey, look at those blue waves coming right at us, you think we should change our locations and move?"
Skulk 2: "Nah, let's sit here and try to catch bullets in our oversized teeth..."
Then your marine team, with the information of the exact location of the aliens are, proceed to shoot every single skulk in the face with a light machine gun and finish the others off with a pistol or knife, with absolutely no resistance or moving from the aliens. You proceed to move in on the hive with no resistance or attacks from behind, you secure the hive with NO resistance, and then you march on down and do the same exact thing for the other hive, all the while protecting your base, getting resource nozzles, AND don't forget you sweep a room every two seconds to finish off the skulks that once again, just sit there and get shot in the face.
See anything wrong with that picture?
I don't know what server you play on, but I'd like to know this mystical place where the commander can multitask everything at once with no problem, the marines all obey orders the first time, the marines have DEADLY ninja-quickness & accuracy that can put every single bullet into every skulk's slimy body, AND have skulks with Krazy Glue on their feet that sit there and get shot up rather than jump around like rabid wolverines while biting heads off. Also in your picture, the skulk team is a bunch of dribbling fools with no coordination or communication, and just attack the marines head on or hide long enough to get shot up like fishs in a barrel.
So let's consider...YOU saying that sensory (or movement for that matter) isn't a decision based on playing style, but it is just plain "worthless", OR the rest of the world that says that each one is viable as the next and it all is based on the game is played...
Please spare me of your response "SCANNER SWEEPZ PWNZ j00!" because one could counter that you just do the same exact thing to a carapaced skulk and find his hiding spot. Sure, it'll take more bullets, but your godly aim will require just an extra marine or two to get the job done.
Argh!
Oh wait, never. Your bad.
If the skulks run from rooms pulsing with blue energy, then the marines move forward. Marines-1 aliens-0.
Ok, You open up the "where do you get these uber marines" box. Well, I am obviously talking about a clan match, or pug of some sort. But then again, if there are bad morons on one team, then if we are assuming even teams, there are just as many on the other teams. 2-3 marines with scanning in front of them can break out of pretty much any alien containment with sensory on a pub.
Skulks without carapace die to normal marines almost every time. If they hide in wait, the little bit of ping lets the marines plug the aliens before they can react, and if the aliens rush, they simply cannot close the distance before they die.
Holding two hives does not require any extra RTs outside the hives themselves. Move to one hive, leave a small defense force. Marine team moves to hive, throws up phase gate, TF, 2 turrets both covering eachother and the TF (Corner placement is best obviously). Drop the RT, move to next hive. Your measly 2 marine defense team lose the base? Recycle everything before you lose it all, and relocate to your newly acquired hive, which has a TF and turrets for defense. After either scenario, move to next hive, and fortify there with turrets too.
So TickTock reverts to rushing with his cloaking... Is that not what you just said was what a moron would do with sensory? Sensor sweeps reduce all that the aliens can do to rushing. Since they are rushing, they would be better off with carapace in the first place. Simple logic.
Or, you could just get to a point outside of the alien starting hive, and siege it. Either way, gg aliens.
It also amuses me to see that you say that "the rest of the world" thinks that sensory is a viable option. Show me a decent clan match where sensory is used effectively, and I will change my thoughts, but until then... No. I wonder why all good clans use defense? Possibly because it is the best? Oh yeah...
Clan matches are ALWAYS played by the numbers.
Oh, and love the circular logic
- Why do all good clans use defense?
- Because it's the best.
- Why is it the best?
- All good clans use it...
No one is trying to prove that Sensory is better than Defense. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Two VERY different uses. Only that it's a viable option depending on the team's play style.
Oh, and...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TickTock's post was pointless and completely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're a rude little whiny clanwhore. Buy a few manners next time you stop at the store to pick up a clue.[/rant]
Clan matches are ALWAYS played by the numbers.
Oh, and love the circular logic
- Why do all good clans use defense?
- Because it's the best.
- Why is it the best?
- All good clans use it...
No one is trying to prove that Sensory is better than Defense. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Two VERY different uses. Only that it's a viable option depending on the team's play style.
Oh, and...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TickTock's post was pointless and completely useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're a rude little whiny clanwhore. Buy a few manners next time you stop at the store to pick up a clue.[/rant]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that's true. Clanners are the most creative bunch in my opinion and they usually find the best options/bugs there are. The reason why clanmatches might (I haven't seen many) be "dull" and generic is because they've optimized their strategies and there isn't anything left that needs optimizing. This mod isn't THAT deep that you'd have to search 2000 years for new better solutions <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Mostly people discover the "best" strategies in a few weeks (in all RTS/FPS games I've played) and they aren't usually changed until patches are made to alter the game. A lot of items in a game easily create the illusion that the game itself is very "deep" and they have some purpose, but that, in my experience, has turned out to be a rather false belief. 1.04 doesn't sound drastic enough to make sensory more popular. To make "sneak attacks" with low health possible (and more useful over direct attacks!), they would probably have to change marine/alien speeds, reduce damages more or increase them to insane levels to make the game a lot slower in general. And naturally turn spawnrates to "once in a lifetime"-level to make deaths somewhat scary. The game simply seems far too fast-paced in publics to support "sneaks". I've tried sensory a few times and noticed this myself.
Someone already pointed out, Fades have more uses of DC and Motion Chamber to go offensive.
If you go for DC next, you sacrifice Adrenaline and cripple Fade and Lerk.
If you go for MC next, you cripppe any ability to heal outside the hive without gorges and wall of lame.
The reason almost every game go DC -> MC -> sensory isn't because players were afraid of changes.
They found it really does work better that way most of the time, even if you may actually won with sensory sometime.
- Why do all good clans use defense?
- Because it's the best.
- Why is it the best?
- All good clans use it...
No one is trying to prove that Sensory is better than Defense. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Two VERY different uses. Only that it's a viable option depending on the team's play style.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the clans are an example of why carapace is best. If something does not work, clans are not going to use it.
It is not apples to oranges. It is more like rotten apple compared to a high quality orange. One is not going to be eaten, the other is. It is not a playstyle, sensory is just counterable with ease.
Edit: and of course with all upgrades, it depends on your players knowing how to take advantage of it.