<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is not a playstyle, sensory is just counterable with ease. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the counter to sensory (scanner sweep) is countered with ease. A) Moving out of the way.* B) Destroying the observatory.**
*You stop moving out of the way when you are giving them vital map areas, you fight them for that. So no, don't even try to argue "Who would give up a hive!?" Like you tried to before.
**Well that might not be EASY because of turrets but it should get destroyed pretty fast, only 1000 hp. (For comparison purpose...Marine spawns have 2000 hp, and THOSE things die pretty fast.)
Oh and uh...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After either scenario, move to next hive, and fortify there with turrets too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres the proof of you making the alien team a bunch of "n00bs" and have no coordination. Good players won't let that happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Move to one hive, leave a small defense force. Marine team moves to hive, throws up phase gate, TF, 2 turrets both covering eachother and the TF <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't care if they have cloaking, a massive skulk and gorge rush should crush the marines there, and even if they do manage to get that first hive, the gorge should have the 2nd hive going up in a few miuntes. What games do you play when the marine team doesn't snag a hive at all? Hopefully none because if you play on as "1337" a server you claim to play on, marines should always get a hive... So anyways to get back to the point, once the second hive goes up, fades and umbra show up and the aliens win.
So monkey, you're saying that that the marines can easily camp/siege a hive that aliens are guarding with sensory, and according to your logic, it won't work, because the aliens are forced to hide and your constant sweeping will force all of them to move/die.
...Why can't the same exact thing happen to aliens with carapace, or ANY upgrade for that matter? Remember, you're talking about clan matches and the like, and OBVIOUSLY clanners have the best aim (or at least better) like you do. So...you said you never travel alone, right? So, sure carapace DOES give you that extra armor/damage reduction, but is that amount of time long enough to do anything constructive? I mean, you'll probably get an extra marine here and there from the frenzied biting, but as you inferred, these marines are coordinated and will be right on the attack and eradicate any remaining aliens quickly...so sure, with your logic, sensory does look like it has major flaws, but then again, you can just throw that back in your face and apply to make defense look not too great.
In the same manner, the comm can scan every single inch of the map and find any aliens the same exact way you would with sensory, as you say.
I can't figure out any other way to express the fact that I'm NOT trying to put down defense in favor of sensory, and really, no one can. The same goes for the other way. You CAN'T put down sensory in favor of defense and have a decent argument. It's all the different way a game is played, and if a moron, i mean, CLANNER like yourself could figure out that just because you like it and YOU personally can't with with something else, doesn't mean it's wrong...
Note - That wasn't a bash to clanners, just ones like the monkey here that have a hard time listening and comprehending.
- CanadianMonkey brings up scenario A.. -- We come up with a way to counter the scenario A.. - CanadianMokney comes up with scenario B to disprove our counter to A.. -- We come up with a way Counter B - CanadianMonkey states scenario A as a counter to our counter to scenario B..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the counter to sensory (scanner sweep) is countered with ease. A) Moving out of the way.* B) Destroying the observatory.**<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the hive securing "strat" (which sucks really bad btw), if you plan on running everytime a sweep comes you'll never be able to ambush them before their sitting in the hive. A comm if he sweeps at all, will sweep every new "area" a marine is about to enter.
Destroying the observatory is as much a counter to scanner sweeps as destroying the armory is to leaving marines with only a knife and starting ammo. Not a realistic scenario unless you've basically won (or the obs was built out of there base) as another obs will be built if you manage to take down the first in seconds.
Regardless, a rambo or a small squad usually leaves marine base at the *start* of the game anyways to set up these bases (not building/defending). Hiding in corners or something waiting for the comm to get resources to drop a phase. You won't have any upgrades to stop the rambo early on. It's more or less luck or good cooperation/understanding on the aliens part if they sweep the 2 empty hive locations before rushing/containing the marines making sure not to miss the really obscure hiding places or marines OUTSIDE of hive locations. Then there's bunny hoppers and silent bunny hoppers to consider.... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't care if they have cloaking, a massive skulk and gorge rush should crush the marines there, and even if they do manage to get that first hive, the gorge should have the 2nd hive going up in a few miuntes. What games do you play when the marine team doesn't snag a hive at all? Hopefully none because if you play on as "1337" a server you claim to play on, marines should always get a hive... So anyways to get back to the point, once the second hive goes up, fades and umbra show up and the aliens win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now who's making what team newbies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Too much theory based gaming to argue. WhatIf scenarios never end.
btw, marines shouldn't always get a hive. There are alot of rush options and resource overpowering strategies available to marines. And as you pointed out, securing one hive means next to nothing if aliens grab the other hive and get fades... assuming by securing a hive you mean the public server usual of TF/Phase/3-5 turrets. Such a waste of resources.
If you're only talking about public servers... almost anything works there. The skill level is so varied, you have a good chance of pulling anything off. That's why you still have people claiming skulk rushes (no upgrades) work, sensory owns, regen > carapace, multiple gorges = good idea, silence is the best movement ability ever, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's why you still have people claiming skulk rushes (no upgrades) work, sensory owns, regen > carapace, multiple gorges = good idea, silence is the best movement ability ever, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk rushes DO work. Sensory doesn't "own" all the chambers have their good and bad points. Regen is better then carapace in some scenarios (like with fades and onos.) Multiple gorges are a good* idea iff you have tons of nozzles. Silence is the best movement chamber, for skulks anyway.. I mean not much a skulk can do with andrenaline, and celerity is ok but doesn't suit my style as good as silence does.
*Good as in it can work resource, but why would you want to? I'd rather be killing stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulk rushes DO work. Sensory doesn't "own" all the chambers have their good and bad points. Regen is better then carapace in some scenarios (like with fades and onos.) Multiple gorges are a good* idea iff you have tons of nozzles. Silence is the best movement chamber, for skulks anyway.. I mean not much a skulk can do with andrenaline, and celerity is ok but doesn't suit my style as good as silence does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--bobthemagicalfish+Jan 25 2003, 05:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bobthemagicalfish @ Jan 25 2003, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->has this not been talked to death and back and then back to death again<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm starting to feel this "sensory"-thing is a zombie who just won't die no matter how hard you try. Good way to spam your postcount really high though...
I'm sure the entire NS community will change their playstyle and start using sensories instead if you just spam long enough <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sure the entire NS community will change their playstyle and start using sensories instead if you just spam long enough<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. If you see the topic over and over again, guess what? I'm sure some people will begin to notice it right? The whole point with my post (and I can't speak for him, but I feel Crisqo as well, as well as others) is to make people realize that every single one of the possibilities in a game are viable and can be used quite effectively to win, but at the same time, all ways have their flaws and will lose some times as well.... I believe the only person here that is keeping all of us posting is this hard headed monkey fellow who can't realize that it's not good to be posting that ONLY ONE WAY AND ONE WAY ONLY can make a game. Everyone else has admitted, at least begrudgingly, that to some extend (which has been argued to what extent) that others will work and DO work. But our monkey friend here always has something clever to say/repeat that sums up his motto "defense is best, all the rest blow." Just typing this right now I can see his new post and actually I'm debating whether to hit "add reply" or not, in fear that we have to go argue once again that he shouldn't be so one sided...but here I go once again, trying to convert this lost soul...mainly because I have nothing better to do...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it takes two to tango.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Monkey looked lonely on the dance floor, so i figured i'd join him.
<!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Jan 25 2003, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Jan 25 2003, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So monkey, you're saying that that the marines can easily camp/siege a hive that aliens are guarding with sensory, and according to your logic, it won't work, because the aliens are forced to hide and your constant sweeping will force all of them to move/die.
In the same manner, the comm can scan every single inch of the map and find any aliens the same exact way you would with sensory, as you say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If anyone has a hard time listening and comprehending, it is you. Why the hell would anyone scan outside hives held by marines, unless you are moving your marines out? Cloaking is countered by scans, and the only time cloaking is a threat when you are moving into an unnoccupied room. Occupied hives are not unoccupied rooms. On the way to the hive, the marine comm scans, and if the aliens are there, they move/die. Their choice. I say lay turrets, as I am assuming pub game at the moment. (If the aliens were dumb enough to get sensory in a clan game, the comm would just rush the hive and flatten the aliens).
And a reply to Crisqo:
" CanadianMonkey brings up scenario A.. -- We come up with a way to counter the scenario A.. - CanadianMokney comes up with scenario B to disprove our counter to A.. -- We come up with a way Counter B - CanadianMonkey states scenario A as a counter to our counter to scenario B.."
More like: -Crisqo and Torgo come up with wierd ideas that skulks without carapace can take areas back from marines, and that they can hold the marines off until they get the second hive. --CanadianMonk3y logically refutes that with post about factual scanner sweep completely negating any advantage of sensory, and making it useless. -Crisqo and Torgo repeat themselves with saying that scanning will not hurt the skulks, and also say that if the skulks rush, they can beat the marines... --CanadianMonk3y wonders why somehow being forced to rush with sensory makes it better than rushing with carapace, since you have to do it either way.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 25 2003, 07:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 25 2003, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it takes two to tango.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Monkey looked lonely on the dance floor, so i figured i'd join him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ahh yes, I used to have Elric... I will dig up that post if you want it... <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=16051&hl=chamber' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...6051&hl=chamber</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 26 2003, 09:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 26 2003, 09:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- CanadianMonkey NO THEY CANT N00B!!!!1 Heres why!! goes into scenario A...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Show me one quote of me directly calling you or Torgo n00bs, and I will concede the argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet another senseless argument for sensory<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 3 <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sensory sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 4 <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TickTock's post was pointless and completely useless<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 6 <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it [sensory chamber] is worthless<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 6 <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not apples to oranges. It's more like rotten apple compared to a high quality orange<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 7
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Crisqo and Torgo come up with wierd ideas<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 7
While you may not come out and call us "n00bs" you sure sling a lot mud.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defense is better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ..You're not going to elaborate on that any..? Also, has anyone seen BlueGhost? He still hasn't explained that "sod it!" thing yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 26 2003, 03:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 26 2003, 03:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While you may not come out and call us "n00bs" you sure sling a lot mud.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defense is better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ..You're not going to elaborate on that any..? Also, has anyone seen BlueGhost? He still hasn't explained that "sod it!" thing yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So do you... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Elaboration on that would be good... Thanks for wasting post space. (Not that it matters much with 8 pages anyway, but oh well...
I was at the time rather depressed of this argument. But 'screw it I'll partisipate anyway'.
I am NOT going to rubbish sensory first in 1.04 because it has definatly changed and I need to play it abit first.
Unfotunatly the game where we were going to test sens first on the warserver was marred by the alien team appraently being full of muppets...
Cut a long story short I had 4 res nodes (Should of been 5 but for the holo-room bug <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and was just starting an attack on their first hive with my intire team in JP/HMG when the intire alien team decided to quit... *sigh*
Anyway 1.03 you're happy to state that if the marines sensory scan they will make it accross the map to any location they desire.
When the marines have a phase up in both hive locations sensory will give you NO benifit so you'd have been better off getting defence.
Thats really all there is to the argument I will re-itterate: Sensory <b>IS COUNTERABLE BY SCAN</b>. Because there is a counter and because you cannot counter the counter. Sensory works by <b>RELIANCE ON YOUR ENEMY BEING STUPID</b>. This is never a good thing in any tactic.
That said it makes a good way of humiliating the marines 'hey guys we're getting sensory in our second hive because we don't NEED move <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->' (you then gorge rush them hehe.
However all these arguments are null and void in 1.04 because:
1) sensory level 1 and 2 are now usefull. 2) Def 1 and 2 aren't AS usefull 3) Scanner is more expesnive 4) PHase rushes are more risky (hence building that obs is possibly NOT optimal)
On the down side though motion tracking now works..
Although that said MT used propperly will utterly decimate any hope you have of re-taking held locations with or without carapice. The marines don't even need turrets to hold a location just put 2 marnies in every location and then the second they see the red blobs heading towards the installation ALL the marines will be there.
So perhaps containment will become more important, acid rockets are de-creased in power aswell so mebbi Sens-Def-Mov.
Although they might manage to counter it by tech-rush, especially if they use JP.
*Claps at BlueGhost* Very well said. Well, most of this whole argument before BG's post is now null and void, as obs is not not the way for marines to go 100% of the time, and things like the arms lab rush have gained larger benefits.
"Thats really all there is to the argument I will re-itterate: Sensory IS COUNTERABLE BY SCAN. Because there is a counter and because you cannot counter the counter. Sensory works by RELIANCE ON YOUR ENEMY BEING STUPID. This is never a good thing in any tactic.
However all these arguments are null and void in 1.04 because:
1) sensory level 1 and 2 are now usefull. 2) Def 1 and 2 aren't AS usefull 3) Scanner is more expesnive 4) PHase rushes are more risky (hence building that obs is possibly NOT optimal)"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So perhaps containment will become more important, acid rockets are de-creased in power aswell so mebbi Sens-Def-Mov.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's all I wanted to hear. A simple "mebbi" goes a long way (I guess), and hopefully these marathon posts will end come the newer versions (post 1.04), and the "balance problems" will not be an issue what so ever.
(Unrelated Note) - thanks for explaining "sod it", i've been saying that for quite some time after you said it and now i actually know what it means...
Its just got interstin with 1.04 fs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
What is the first thing Marines do in Pub games? <b>Observation + Motion Tracking</b>.
What is the second thing Marines do in Pub games? <b>Lock Down a Hive</b>
The fact is, Sensory first strategies rely on <i><b>total</b> marine containment</i> meaning no marines can escape the main base. There is a good reason for this. If the Marines get a mini-base up (Phase/Tfac/3-4 Turrets) in any of the Hives or at a Sieging Point <i>a skulk with any level of sensory will not be able to take it out very easily</i>.
Not that it is impossible but with Sensory taking out a mini-base will require more skulks and more hit-and-run attacks because without Carapace you lose that x% defence advantage. The result is it consumes more time to take out mini-bases which mean more time for marines to reinforce it, take another hive etc.
That is the inherent disadvantage of Sensory over Defence. Sensory is good for the first 5 minutes of the game when you are in ambush mode parasiting Marines and taking out individual hive scouts. However as soon as the Marines start moving out in 3-5 man squads having survivability is more important then stealth.
Why?
Because Cloak only gives you about a 3 second surprise advantage <i>if the commander doesn't scan ahead of the squad</i>. As soon as you trip the ambush it's hopping marines and lead flying everywhere, you are no longer cloaked so you are now a 70/10 Skulk with no bonus Defence %. So essentially Sensory first strategy assumes that any Alien player can dispatch a Marine within 3 seconds of the ambush because after the initial shock of being ambushed all your bonuses are nullified.
People's aim are getting real good. Even your regular newbie to NS will sure to be an experienced twitch FPSer somewhere else. However in addition to the marine hitbox issue, the evasive super-hopping, and the generally improved aim of the Marine players it has become a necessity to have a little extra defence for any confrontation with Marines.
A strategy should take into account as many possible scenarios as possible. Even a scenario when the people on your team are not that good. I don't disagree that Sensory can be a powerful chamber if everything can be executed precisely and used properly, however I don't think it's a good idea to rely on a strategy that needs things to go exactly one way.
Defence upgrades can be adaptable to many strategy. (Base Busting/Defence/Healing) Sensory upgrades have a very specific strategy. (Ambush/Scouting)
And notice Defence Upgrades can also help Ambush and Scouting whereas Sensory Upgrades are not much help with Base Busting and Healing.
I think that is the main point in the DC/SC First Debate.
<b>Defence Chamber first is a strategy that is a LOT more versatile.</b>
That is why the NS team is working to make MC/SC more viable as a first chamber... because even with the improvements to SC in 1.04 you still can't bust-bases with them.
If your entire alien team is good, you can beat an average marine team with sensory.(You would have won easily with carapace, but who cares)
But on pubs you will always have those skulks thinking: hey if I hide (read: camp) at this resource nozzle, maybe I can eventually get a marine kill. Meanwhile the marines secure two hives and there is nothing you can do as hive 1 alien with cloaking vs decent marines pg, tf and 4 turrets.
Carapace effectively doubles your hitpoints, sensory could double/triple your hitpoints, if you can surprise the marines, since you will get shot later.
Sensory has been adjusted to try to make it a viable early game chamber, giving you a nice upgrade very early on that can help your skulk game. In this i think they have succeeded, however, there are some serious problems with taking sensory first once you get past those initial stages of the game.
At the beginning of the game, sensory can be effective at level 1, and is a cheap chamber, you can fit it into a RT, SC, RT, RT, Hive, build very easily and have a hive up much earlier than a usual early DC build - along with an effective lv1 upgrade that makes ambushing and containment more effective. This is the advantage of sens first. The problem is not the early game, its a few minutes later. Sensory has 1 specific purpose - ambushing. Outside of situations where you know the location of the marines, and you know they are coming towards you, sens has very little worth. Early in the game, containment is your priority, but a few minutes later you need to be more adaptable. Sens does not help you take down forward marine bases, sieges, it doesn't teleport your gorge home when a marine is running after him down a coridoor. Defence is the most versatile chamber in the game, no argument. Carapace is effective in every single situation because its generic, a jack of all trades upgrade. But this jack of all trades upgrade is arguably as effective as the other upgrades are in their specialized roles, if not better.
The main problem however, comes once you hit the 2 hive stage. You are now stuck with sensory, a chamber you chose because it was cheap and efficient for the early game. But you aren't in the early game any longer and you have no way of changing your mind. The fade/lerk/gorge combo is dependant on carapace and adrenaline, the effect carapace has on a fade is enourmous - most people don't realise how much faster a fade dies without it because you almost never fight a fade who doesn't have carapace. Likewise, lerk/gorge need adrenaline to be effective on the front lines, web/spray/umbra/spines/flying have high energy costs. And however cool you might think you sound by dismissing acid rockets as a newb weapon, they are an important part of the fades versatility, and they need adrenaline. Once you hit the 2 hive stage the whole trend of the game changes, a 2 hive alien team isnt concerned with hiding in a dark corner to ambush marines. Your aim will be to take down marine outposts and either assault their main or take a 3rd hive while your tech advantage is at its peak. I would go as far to say sensory is a useless burden at this stage in the game. The argument for taking SC over DC then, is that SC may be necessary to survive the early game. If it isnt necessary, then taking SC simply weakens your mid game.
Bild a Sens chamber? Not for me. I just bilt a Sens chamber for the 2nd upgrade and was kicked from a server. Im not bilding sens chambers ever again. Too much hassle. Whenever you bild one you always get some butthead(s) yelling at you or whatever. The game can be won w/o it. If someone wants sens from now on they gotta get someone else to bild it because I wont be. I can live w/o the stress thank you very much.
I think the reason that most people are against gorges putting down sensory, is because most gorges who do so are Lamers. For example, there was one game I was in, and the whole team needed to take out some turrets and phasegate outside the hive, and everyone kept demanding carapace, I mean EVERYONE on the team, I think we knew what was best, what did the dumb gorge go and build instead? Yup, dumped down one Sensory, and said something like '53N50RY R L337', and then proceeded to leave the game, never to be seen again.
So naturally, most people don't trust gorges who put down sensory as a first chamber, just because that most gorges who do are usually out to sabotage the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And however cool you might think you sound by dismissing acid rockets as a newb weapon, they are an important part of the fades versatility, and they need adrenaline<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
....No they don't. You only think that because every game you spam acid rockets, try a game with just blink and swipe and come back and tell me how many kills you get. It SHOULD be the same but you take them out faster because you don't have to wait for energy to come back with swipe/blink. Once the same kill ratio has been established, it can be argued that fades don't NEED movement to be effective. So they have carapace/regen/redemption (<--- not recommended though) and a sensory upgrade of their choice.
Comments
And the counter to sensory (scanner sweep) is countered with ease. A) Moving out of the way.* B) Destroying the observatory.**
*You stop moving out of the way when you are giving them vital map areas, you fight them for that. So no, don't even try to argue "Who would give up a hive!?" Like you tried to before.
**Well that might not be EASY because of turrets but it should get destroyed pretty fast, only 1000 hp. (For comparison purpose...Marine spawns have 2000 hp, and THOSE things die pretty fast.)
Oh and uh...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After either scenario, move to next hive, and fortify there with turrets too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theres the proof of you making the alien team a bunch of "n00bs" and have no coordination. Good players won't let that happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Move to one hive, leave a small defense force. Marine team moves to hive, throws up phase gate, TF, 2 turrets both covering eachother and the TF <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't care if they have cloaking, a massive skulk and gorge rush should crush the marines there, and even if they do manage to get that first hive, the gorge should have the 2nd hive going up in a few miuntes. What games do you play when the marine team doesn't snag a hive at all? Hopefully none because if you play on as "1337" a server you claim to play on, marines should always get a hive... So anyways to get back to the point, once the second hive goes up, fades and umbra show up and the aliens win.
...Why can't the same exact thing happen to aliens with carapace, or ANY upgrade for that matter? Remember, you're talking about clan matches and the like, and OBVIOUSLY clanners have the best aim (or at least better) like you do. So...you said you never travel alone, right? So, sure carapace DOES give you that extra armor/damage reduction, but is that amount of time long enough to do anything constructive? I mean, you'll probably get an extra marine here and there from the frenzied biting, but as you inferred, these marines are coordinated and will be right on the attack and eradicate any remaining aliens quickly...so sure, with your logic, sensory does look like it has major flaws, but then again, you can just throw that back in your face and apply to make defense look not too great.
In the same manner, the comm can scan every single inch of the map and find any aliens the same exact way you would with sensory, as you say.
I can't figure out any other way to express the fact that I'm NOT trying to put down defense in favor of sensory, and really, no one can. The same goes for the other way. You CAN'T put down sensory in favor of defense and have a decent argument. It's all the different way a game is played, and if a moron, i mean, CLANNER like yourself could figure out that just because you like it and YOU personally can't with with something else, doesn't mean it's wrong...
Note - That wasn't a bash to clanners, just ones like the monkey here that have a hard time listening and comprehending.
- CanadianMonkey brings up scenario A..
-- We come up with a way to counter the scenario A..
- CanadianMokney comes up with scenario B to disprove our counter to A..
-- We come up with a way Counter B
- CanadianMonkey states scenario A as a counter to our counter to scenario B..
And so on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And the counter to sensory (scanner sweep) is countered with ease. A) Moving out of the way.* B) Destroying the observatory.**<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the hive securing "strat" (which sucks really bad btw), if you plan on running everytime a sweep comes you'll never be able to ambush them before their sitting in the hive. A comm if he sweeps at all, will sweep every new "area" a marine is about to enter.
Destroying the observatory is as much a counter to scanner sweeps as destroying the armory is to leaving marines with only a knife and starting ammo. Not a realistic scenario unless you've basically won (or the obs was built out of there base) as another obs will be built if you manage to take down the first in seconds.
Regardless, a rambo or a small squad usually leaves marine base at the *start* of the game anyways to set up these bases (not building/defending). Hiding in corners or something waiting for the comm to get resources to drop a phase. You won't have any upgrades to stop the rambo early on. It's more or less luck or good cooperation/understanding on the aliens part if they sweep the 2 empty hive locations before rushing/containing the marines making sure not to miss the really obscure hiding places or marines OUTSIDE of hive locations. Then there's bunny hoppers and silent bunny hoppers to consider.... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't care if they have cloaking, a massive skulk and gorge rush should crush the marines there, and even if they do manage to get that first hive, the gorge should have the 2nd hive going up in a few miuntes. What games do you play when the marine team doesn't snag a hive at all? Hopefully none because if you play on as "1337" a server you claim to play on, marines should always get a hive... So anyways to get back to the point, once the second hive goes up, fades and umbra show up and the aliens win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now who's making what team newbies <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Too much theory based gaming to argue. WhatIf scenarios never end.
btw, marines shouldn't always get a hive. There are alot of rush options and resource overpowering strategies available to marines. And as you pointed out, securing one hive means next to nothing if aliens grab the other hive and get fades... assuming by securing a hive you mean the public server usual of TF/Phase/3-5 turrets. Such a waste of resources.
If you're only talking about public servers... almost anything works there. The skill level is so varied, you have a good chance of pulling anything off. That's why you still have people claiming skulk rushes (no upgrades) work, sensory owns, regen > carapace, multiple gorges = good idea, silence is the best movement ability ever, etc.
Blank
Try telling the monkey that...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's why you still have people claiming skulk rushes (no upgrades) work, sensory owns, regen > carapace, multiple gorges = good idea, silence is the best movement ability ever, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulk rushes DO work. Sensory doesn't "own" all the chambers have their good and bad points. Regen is better then carapace in some scenarios (like with fades and onos.) Multiple gorges are a good* idea iff you have tons of nozzles. Silence is the best movement chamber, for skulks anyway.. I mean not much a skulk can do with andrenaline, and celerity is ok but doesn't suit my style as good as silence does.
*Good as in it can work resource, but why would you want to? I'd rather be killing stuff.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try telling the monkey that...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it takes two to tango.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulk rushes DO work. Sensory doesn't "own" all the chambers have their good and bad points. Regen is better then carapace in some scenarios (like with fades and onos.) Multiple gorges are a good* idea iff you have tons of nozzles. Silence is the best movement chamber, for skulks anyway.. I mean not much a skulk can do with andrenaline, and celerity is ok but doesn't suit my style as good as silence does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for proving my point.
Blank
I'm starting to feel this "sensory"-thing is a zombie who just won't die no matter how hard you try. Good way to spam your postcount really high though...
I'm sure the entire NS community will change their playstyle and start using sensories instead if you just spam long enough <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Exactly. If you see the topic over and over again, guess what? I'm sure some people will begin to notice it right? The whole point with my post (and I can't speak for him, but I feel Crisqo as well, as well as others) is to make people realize that every single one of the possibilities in a game are viable and can be used quite effectively to win, but at the same time, all ways have their flaws and will lose some times as well....
I believe the only person here that is keeping all of us posting is this hard headed monkey fellow who can't realize that it's not good to be posting that ONLY ONE WAY AND ONE WAY ONLY can make a game. Everyone else has admitted, at least begrudgingly, that to some extend (which has been argued to what extent) that others will work and DO work. But our monkey friend here always has something clever to say/repeat that sums up his motto "defense is best, all the rest blow." Just typing this right now I can see his new post and actually I'm debating whether to hit "add reply" or not, in fear that we have to go argue once again that he shouldn't be so one sided...but here I go once again, trying to convert this lost soul...mainly because I have nothing better to do...
Edited...typos suck
Monkey looked lonely on the dance floor, so i figured i'd join him.
In the same manner, the comm can scan every single inch of the map and find any aliens the same exact way you would with sensory, as you say.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If anyone has a hard time listening and comprehending, it is you. Why the hell would anyone scan outside hives held by marines, unless you are moving your marines out? Cloaking is countered by scans, and the only time cloaking is a threat when you are moving into an unnoccupied room. Occupied hives are not unoccupied rooms.
On the way to the hive, the marine comm scans, and if the aliens are there, they move/die. Their choice. I say lay turrets, as I am assuming pub game at the moment. (If the aliens were dumb enough to get sensory in a clan game, the comm would just rush the hive and flatten the aliens).
And a reply to Crisqo:
" CanadianMonkey brings up scenario A..
-- We come up with a way to counter the scenario A..
- CanadianMokney comes up with scenario B to disprove our counter to A..
-- We come up with a way Counter B
- CanadianMonkey states scenario A as a counter to our counter to scenario B.."
More like:
-Crisqo and Torgo come up with wierd ideas that skulks without carapace can take areas back from marines, and that they can hold the marines off until they get the second hive.
--CanadianMonk3y logically refutes that with post about factual scanner sweep completely negating any advantage of sensory, and making it useless.
-Crisqo and Torgo repeat themselves with saying that scanning will not hurt the skulks, and also say that if the skulks rush, they can beat the marines...
--CanadianMonk3y wonders why somehow being forced to rush with sensory makes it better than rushing with carapace, since you have to do it either way.
Monkey looked lonely on the dance floor, so i figured i'd join him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh yes, I used to have Elric... I will dig up that post if you want it...
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=16051&hl=chamber' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...6051&hl=chamber</a>
-- Sensory can win games just like defense can.
- CanadianMonkey NO THEY CANT N00B!!!!1 Heres why!! goes into scenario A...
Show me one quote of me directly calling you or Torgo n00bs, and I will concede the argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sensory sucks<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 4
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->TickTock's post was pointless and completely useless<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 6
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it [sensory chamber] is worthless<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 6
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not apples to oranges. It's more like rotten apple compared to a high quality orange<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
page 7
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Crisqo and Torgo come up with wierd ideas<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> page 7
While you may not come out and call us "n00bs" you sure sling a lot mud.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defense is better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..You're not going to elaborate on that any..?
Also, has anyone seen BlueGhost? He still hasn't explained that "sod it!" thing yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defense is better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
..You're not going to elaborate on that any..?
Also, has anyone seen BlueGhost? He still hasn't explained that "sod it!" thing yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So do you... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Elaboration on that would be good... Thanks for wasting post space. (Not that it matters much with 8 pages anyway, but oh well...
I am also wondering about what BlueGhost means.
Common usages: 'Sod off.' 'That won't sodding work!', etc.
I was at the time rather depressed of this argument. But 'screw it I'll partisipate anyway'.
I am NOT going to rubbish sensory first in 1.04 because it has definatly changed and I need to play it abit first.
Unfotunatly the game where we were going to test sens first on the warserver was marred by the alien team appraently being full of muppets...
Cut a long story short I had 4 res nodes (Should of been 5 but for the holo-room bug <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and was just starting an attack on their first hive with my intire team in JP/HMG when the intire alien team decided to quit... *sigh*
Anyway 1.03 you're happy to state that if the marines sensory scan they will make it accross the map to any location they desire.
When the marines have a phase up in both hive locations sensory will give you NO benifit so you'd have been better off getting defence.
Thats really all there is to the argument I will re-itterate:
Sensory <b>IS COUNTERABLE BY SCAN</b>.
Because there is a counter and because you cannot counter the counter.
Sensory works by <b>RELIANCE ON YOUR ENEMY BEING STUPID</b>. This is never a good thing in any tactic.
That said it makes a good way of humiliating the marines 'hey guys we're getting sensory in our second hive because we don't NEED move <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->' (you then gorge rush them hehe.
However all these arguments are null and void in 1.04 because:
1) sensory level 1 and 2 are now usefull.
2) Def 1 and 2 aren't AS usefull
3) Scanner is more expesnive
4) PHase rushes are more risky (hence building that obs is possibly NOT optimal)
On the down side though motion tracking now works..
Although that said MT used propperly will utterly decimate any hope you have of re-taking held locations with or without carapice. The marines don't even need turrets to hold a location just put 2 marnies in every location and then the second they see the red blobs heading towards the installation ALL the marines will be there.
So perhaps containment will become more important, acid rockets are de-creased in power aswell so mebbi Sens-Def-Mov.
Although they might manage to counter it by tech-rush, especially if they use JP.
BlueGhost
Very well said. Well, most of this whole argument before BG's post is now null and void, as obs is not not the way for marines to go 100% of the time, and things like the arms lab rush have gained larger benefits.
"Thats really all there is to the argument I will re-itterate:
Sensory IS COUNTERABLE BY SCAN.
Because there is a counter and because you cannot counter the counter.
Sensory works by RELIANCE ON YOUR ENEMY BEING STUPID. This is never a good thing in any tactic.
However all these arguments are null and void in 1.04 because:
1) sensory level 1 and 2 are now usefull.
2) Def 1 and 2 aren't AS usefull
3) Scanner is more expesnive
4) PHase rushes are more risky (hence building that obs is possibly NOT optimal)"
^
Sums it all up.
That's all I wanted to hear. A simple "mebbi" goes a long way (I guess), and hopefully these marathon posts will end come the newer versions (post 1.04), and the "balance problems" will not be an issue what so ever.
(Unrelated Note) - thanks for explaining "sod it", i've been saying that for quite some time after you said it and now i actually know what it means...
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Its just got interstin with 1.04 fs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost
What is the second thing Marines do in Pub games? <b>Lock Down a Hive</b>
The fact is, Sensory first strategies rely on <i><b>total</b> marine containment</i> meaning no marines can escape the main base. There is a good reason for this. If the Marines get a mini-base up (Phase/Tfac/3-4 Turrets) in any of the Hives or at a Sieging Point <i>a skulk with any level of sensory will not be able to take it out very easily</i>.
Not that it is impossible but with Sensory taking out a mini-base will require more skulks and more hit-and-run attacks because without Carapace you lose that x% defence advantage. The result is it consumes more time to take out mini-bases which mean more time for marines to reinforce it, take another hive etc.
That is the inherent disadvantage of Sensory over Defence. Sensory is good for the first 5 minutes of the game when you are in ambush mode parasiting Marines and taking out individual hive scouts. However as soon as the Marines start moving out in 3-5 man squads having survivability is more important then stealth.
Why?
Because Cloak only gives you about a 3 second surprise advantage <i>if the commander doesn't scan ahead of the squad</i>. As soon as you trip the ambush it's hopping marines and lead flying everywhere, you are no longer cloaked so you are now a 70/10 Skulk with no bonus Defence %. So essentially Sensory first strategy assumes that any Alien player can dispatch a Marine within 3 seconds of the ambush because after the initial shock of being ambushed all your bonuses are nullified.
People's aim are getting real good. Even your regular newbie to NS will sure to be an experienced twitch FPSer somewhere else. However in addition to the marine hitbox issue, the evasive super-hopping, and the generally improved aim of the Marine players it has become a necessity to have a little extra defence for any confrontation with Marines.
A strategy should take into account as many possible scenarios as possible. Even a scenario when the people on your team are not that good. I don't disagree that Sensory can be a powerful chamber if everything can be executed precisely and used properly, however I don't think it's a good idea to rely on a strategy that needs things to go exactly one way.
Defence upgrades can be adaptable to many strategy. (Base Busting/Defence/Healing)
Sensory upgrades have a very specific strategy. (Ambush/Scouting)
And notice Defence Upgrades can also help Ambush and Scouting whereas Sensory Upgrades are not much help with Base Busting and Healing.
I think that is the main point in the DC/SC First Debate.
<b>Defence Chamber first is a strategy that is a LOT more versatile.</b>
That is why the NS team is working to make MC/SC more viable as a first chamber... because even with the improvements to SC in 1.04 you still can't bust-bases with them.
My opinion on the matter:
If your entire alien team is good, you can beat an average marine team with sensory.(You would have won easily with carapace, but who cares)
But on pubs you will always have those skulks thinking: hey if I hide (read: camp) at this resource nozzle, maybe I can eventually get a marine kill.
Meanwhile the marines secure two hives and there is nothing you can do as hive 1 alien with cloaking vs decent marines pg, tf and 4 turrets.
Carapace effectively doubles your hitpoints, sensory could double/triple your hitpoints, if you can surprise the marines, since you will get shot later.
At the beginning of the game, sensory can be effective at level 1, and is a cheap chamber, you can fit it into a RT, SC, RT, RT, Hive, build very easily and have a hive up much earlier than a usual early DC build - along with an effective lv1 upgrade that makes ambushing and containment more effective. This is the advantage of sens first. The problem is not the early game, its a few minutes later. Sensory has 1 specific purpose - ambushing. Outside of situations where you know the location of the marines, and you know they are coming towards you, sens has very little worth. Early in the game, containment is your priority, but a few minutes later you need to be more adaptable. Sens does not help you take down forward marine bases, sieges, it doesn't teleport your gorge home when a marine is running after him down a coridoor. Defence is the most versatile chamber in the game, no argument. Carapace is effective in every single situation because its generic, a jack of all trades upgrade. But this jack of all trades upgrade is arguably as effective as the other upgrades are in their specialized roles, if not better.
The main problem however, comes once you hit the 2 hive stage. You are now stuck with sensory, a chamber you chose because it was cheap and efficient for the early game. But you aren't in the early game any longer and you have no way of changing your mind. The fade/lerk/gorge combo is dependant on carapace and adrenaline, the effect carapace has on a fade is enourmous - most people don't realise how much faster a fade dies without it because you almost never fight a fade who doesn't have carapace. Likewise, lerk/gorge need adrenaline to be effective on the front lines, web/spray/umbra/spines/flying have high energy costs. And however cool you might think you sound by dismissing acid rockets as a newb weapon, they are an important part of the fades versatility, and they need adrenaline. Once you hit the 2 hive stage the whole trend of the game changes, a 2 hive alien team isnt concerned with hiding in a dark corner to ambush marines. Your aim will be to take down marine outposts and either assault their main or take a 3rd hive while your tech advantage is at its peak. I would go as far to say sensory is a useless burden at this stage in the game. The argument for taking SC over DC then, is that SC may be necessary to survive the early game. If it isnt necessary, then taking SC simply weakens your mid game.
So naturally, most people don't trust gorges who put down sensory as a first chamber, just because that most gorges who do are usually out to sabotage the game.
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....No they don't. You only think that because every game you spam acid rockets, try a game with just blink and swipe and come back and tell me how many kills you get. It SHOULD be the same but you take them out faster because you don't have to wait for energy to come back with swipe/blink. Once the same kill ratio has been established, it can be argued that fades don't NEED movement to be effective. So they have carapace/regen/redemption (<--- not recommended though) and a sensory upgrade of their choice.