Abortion.
Sirus
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">The nitty-gritty.</div> Very simple. Do you agree in Abortion? Yay or nay, and reason why will suffice.
Since I'm made this post I will obviously go first.
Abortion is wrong. I do not like the idea at all.
People make mistakes therefore they feel they are justified to kill their child? No way. That doesn't cut it at all. If you don't want then child the put it up for adoption, don't kill it, there are millions of people who can't have children and want to adopt.
If you are a rape victim, my heart goes out to you, but please, do not kill your child because of the mistake that its father made.
Simply, I think its ludicrous that its legal to kill babies. People would get in a frenzy if they heard a person killed their 2 year old child, so why is it okay to kill it when its been growing for 2 months?
I'm sure some will argue that a fetus is not human. Law of BioGenesis, dogs create dogs, humans create humans, so therefore a fetus is human, because a human can not create anything that is not human.
Feel free to agree or disagree. I simply think that this would be a good debate topic.
[edit] Spelling Error =D
Since I'm made this post I will obviously go first.
Abortion is wrong. I do not like the idea at all.
People make mistakes therefore they feel they are justified to kill their child? No way. That doesn't cut it at all. If you don't want then child the put it up for adoption, don't kill it, there are millions of people who can't have children and want to adopt.
If you are a rape victim, my heart goes out to you, but please, do not kill your child because of the mistake that its father made.
Simply, I think its ludicrous that its legal to kill babies. People would get in a frenzy if they heard a person killed their 2 year old child, so why is it okay to kill it when its been growing for 2 months?
I'm sure some will argue that a fetus is not human. Law of BioGenesis, dogs create dogs, humans create humans, so therefore a fetus is human, because a human can not create anything that is not human.
Feel free to agree or disagree. I simply think that this would be a good debate topic.
[edit] Spelling Error =D
Comments
and now, the errors in your argument against abortion:
1) You repeatidly use the words child and baby, thus assuming that a non sencient being (the fetus is NOT sensient, this is proven) is a child, remmember, once the develpoment has gone far enugh you can no longer get an abortion (something I agree with).
2) you are also forgetting the pain and suffering that having a child is, thus many women have viewed it as being punished twice for sometihng that is not their fault (rape, and if ANY FN suggests that rape is the victems fault I will instantly have a deep urge to find some one to plunger rape you and then tell you that it is your fault <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->).
now, my reasons for being prochoice:
1) I am male nad thus really don't think I have any say over what a woman CHOSES to do to her self
2) Rape, as I said before, child birth as well as the complications of pregnancy (not being able to work is a VERY large problem) should not be forced on some one b/c of some one elses choice in attacking them.
3) I believe in second chances, I don't think that some one should be forced to ruin their lives for one bad mistake (or an accident that they had no controll over, broken condoms happen and birth controll is NOT %100 effective)
4) There are cases in which the mother will die if she does not recieve an abortion, thus I believe that the option must be there.
5) what happenes if abortion is made illegal:
ok, that was wrong (I just drew an ascii version of a coathanger but it will not see the light of day)
but yah, coathangers again, it aint a pretty subject.
Again this is why I am ProChoice, I don't like the idea of people who use abortion as a birthcontroll meathod, but yah
Oh and the point at wich a fetus is a human with full rights of any other human is depatable I admit.
But since we <i>don't</i> live in a perfect world, that won't work. I have yet to see an argument for either side of the abortion debate that pulls me to that side. I have, however, seen a number of "unique" takes on this issue, including one that I hope was satirical (the article was called "On the benefits of post-birth abortion")
Oh, and I BELIEVE that abortion clinics give the woman ALL the information that they could want about their options (adoption keeping it etc)
I'm more pro-choice than anything.
At least give people the OPTION to abort if they want to. Those who want to will, those who are against it will not, but at least the choice is there.
Admittedly, I believe putting a child up for adoption is a better route, there are many who can't have kids who'd benefit from it. By the same token however, foster homes have a notoriety for being shady, and adoptive parents even more so at times. We all have heard the horror stories of children raised in orphanages and barely given enough food, or beaten. Or children being brought into the households of abusive parents.
A hypothetical example...suppose a teenager gets pregnant. She lives with one parent, who makes minimum wage, maybe is abusive. Without ability to abort (although admittedly adoption could still be an option), what kind of life is this teenage girl (who's only a baby herself) bringing her child into?
Irregardless of the fact I would press for adoption, the process of going through labor is still a stressful one, and for an unwanted pregnancy, can even lead to further emotional trauma later when the baby is given away to adoption.
Just my 2c
The father has jsck squat say in the matter
HE is not the one who is going to go through a few MONTHS of hell, as well as not being able to WORK and then have to go through the serious TRAUMA of child birth (especialy if it is unwanted). Males have no say in this matter (part of the reason I am prochoice).
This is because I feel "killing" what *could* be another human being just doesn't cut it for me. According to your views, having a period could be considered manslaughered - since, that egg just bled out *could* have been a baby. Same thing for men; having a wet dream would be manslaughter, masturbating and wearing a condom would be first-degree murder. Since, of course, that sperm could have gone to bringing another human into the world (hope I'm not the only one getting flashbacks from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life").
Where do you draw the line? An egg as well as a sperm is just a cell. A fetus is just an unliving mass of cells, much like your own skin. Removing a fetus is just like wearing a condom or taking a birth-control pill - it's the premetitated prevention of bringing a baby into a world where he will not be well-received. Along the anti-abortionist train of thought, natural human functions (such as the afformentioned menstral cycle) would be terrible crimes. That just doesn't seem right to me.
I, however, do agree with the current abortion laws. Once a fetus enters the second trimester, it develops organs, and begins to become its own seperate living thing. At this point, abortion does become more of an issue of killing human beings than of removing an unliving mass of tissue. Up until then, though, abortion is fine to me.
1) You are ussing a slipery slope argument (ie illogical) you are taking what they say farther then it was intended (thus putting words in teir mouths).
In saying that a featus (what you get when a sperm impregnates an egg) is the same thing as those 2 seperated, which they are obviously NOT.
its kinda like saying that a jar of PB, a jar of jam, and some bread IS a PB and J samich, wich it obviously aint.
the other part is that arguing over WHEN a fetus is to be considered a human being is futile simply b/c no one will ever change their mind on that matter (unless you can present new data that they have never seen, which is again, unlikely).
Some of your argments are wrong Child birth is not hell. When a women is pregnant she produces many dopamine. So the pregnancy can be an enjoyable part of a womans life. The contractions can be a **** but its not the most painful thing ever.
And what is with this non-sentient thing? We are free to do whatever we want with "non-sentient" beings? What about people that are unconcious (Or perpetually unconcious)? By definition they are not sentient.
There is the freedom to choose and there is the responsibility to bear.
Think about your life, If your mother aborted you then you would miss out on everything in life. You would at least like to be adopted so you can still live.
Also, If you say its ok to kill a fetus that is non-sensient then you are still killing another human being. Don't argue that its not or it can't feel anything because you are still killing it, your just justifying why.
For me, killing another human is just something that's plain out wrong. Within the next day I'll give you guys a URL.
I've seen a couple presentations/lectures on abortion. Let me say, the videos are graphic and gruesome. It's sad to see babies/fetus' with burned and distorted faces. Dismembered legs and arms. With fetus' body pulled apart. If you look at it, the only big difference between a 4-6 month fetus and a baby is mostly the size.
For one, should it be right for a largely male political body to enforce it's will(this only becomes an issue when abortion is made illegal) on a largely female populous? The answer would seem obvious, no. But yet, abbortion opponents(most of whom are male) seem to think that it is OK. It's like a kind of appartied when you think about it.
Another pressing question, what is to be done about the militant anti-abbotionists? Although statistics have reported that anywhere up to 70% of the US populous is pro-choice, a very small minority of the population(nearly all fundameltalist christians, interestingly enough) have made it so, that even though abortion is still legal, nearly all of the doctors trained for the procedure are so afraid of the militant right that they refuse to perform it. It amounts to domestic terrorism on a grand scale, with no large action taken to combat it. I wonder what would happen is these acts had been commited by, o, say, MUSLIMS instead of christians. Think about it.
And lastly, and I think, most importantly, how much would the economy benefit from the boom in the raw metals idustry stemming from the humoungous rise in metal hanger sales if abortion was made illegal?
/tasteless joke
Free abortion on demand is a human need. Due to the oppressive nature of the institution of the family, the right to an abortion is fundamental to women's liberation. Having a child is a lifetime economic burden, that drives many working class couples to utter poverty to support their children, which underlines the need to defend women's right to abortions. Another demand relationg to the institution of the family is free childcare. This is all I really have to say on this subject.
Abortions are wrong well maybe it should be before the 2nd trimester imo I think steam cell research though is ok. Its still better then inserting hangers and yanking the kid out.
As far as adoption goes, remember that, at least here in the US, adoption is expensive. Most families can't afford to adopt a child (even though if they could just get the child everybody would be in fine economic shape). There may be lots of families that want to adopt, but there are many many more children whom won't be adopted.
I don't know if there's a God, and I don't know what he'd think of the issue. Its a lot more complicated than either side wants to admit, and there is no clear-cut, black & white, right and wrong answer.
So my thoughts on the subject are this: If you are pro-choice, fine. your business is your business. not mine. If you are pro-life, fine. again, your business is your business. Do not make your business other people's business. [edit]Also, while I know we do have some women in the community, most of us here are probably guys. And being guys, its not really any of our damn business anyway, and we can't possibly have the same emotional responses as a woman would in this situation.[/edit]
If there is one thing in this argument that I can definately say, YES, it is wrong to, it would be this: The bombing of abortion clinics. Resorting to violence to prove our points... Makes me wish the fish evolved instead of the monkeys...
Saying that is like saying that you and I could elect anyone we wanted into office. That's not the way the system works. The people with the money(and in the case of the current administration, freinds in high places) get elected. You can't run for president based on your ideals.
And of course your idealogy would be different! People's opinions are formed by their experiences, and if you're saying that you woudl have all the same esperiences as you've had as man, if you were instead a woman, then you have had one messed up life.
It is this type of dodging that is truly disgusting. At least take the time to examine the evidence and formulate a position. This is not a personal issue but and underlying <i>social</i> problem that should concern everyone. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's your opinion. My opinion is that its <i>not</i> a social issue, but rather, a personal one. I *HAVE* examined both sides, and I have formulated an opinion. That is my opinion.
Your examples are quite silly, because neither of them pertains to my opinion - at least, I do not think so.
A sperm and an egg never *will* be a baby, they simply *might* be a baby. There is always the chance of a stillborn - and is a stillborn a life? No. That's a dead mass of cells. Granted, the chances of a stillborn with our medical advances is quite slim, but it is still important to note that a sperm and an egg, at least in the first trimester (and beyond, if they baby is stillborn), are simply that: a sperm and an egg.
So is peanut butter, jelly, and bread alone, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? No. But is a peanut butter and jelly sandwich still peanut butter, jelly, and bread? Yep. Surely you can see both how badly this example applies to human beings, but also to your point in general.
And killing an unborn chick? Bit of a bad example as well. An egg is, again, just a mass of cells with some nutrients to feed and grow off of. Breaking an egg for food is like aborting a fetus in the first trimester - neither is alive, both had the *chance* to be alive, but neither have that chance anymore. If you argue that taking away that chance is murder, once again, where do you draw the line? Is using a condom "taking away that chance?" Because, I reitterate, that sperm *could* be a baby. The issue is sketchy at best.
But I do suppose the word "sentient" was a poor choice on my part. In correction, I should say that I am against aborting a fetus that is its own seperate entity. In the first trimester, I feel the fetus is little more than some extra tissue within the mother's womb. By the 2nd trimester, the fetus has become more of an actual baby - it has organs, it can function by itself, it can feel pain. That's why I am against abortion after the first trimester, and fittingly so, the law is against it as well.
Boy, this is starting to become fun =)
Saying that is like saying that you and I could elect anyone we wanted into office. That's not the way the system works. The people with the money(and in the case of the current administration, freinds in high places) get elected. You can't run for president based on your ideals.
And of course your idealogy would be different! People's opinions are formed by their experiences, and if you're saying that you woudl have all the same esperiences as you've had as man, if you were instead a woman, then you have had one messed up life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If i become a political activist or political elite then i can have an influence to who is elected and anybody can do that to. Well you would need some brains about it. People are elected for thier ideals. You think republicans think bush was the best canidate? Probably not but he was the most likely to stay to the republican agenda.
No my idealogy can be the same as woman. Infact there are only 2 constrained and unconstrained its just to what extremes and how pure the idealology is.
We are not taking away the chance of it happening. It has <b>already</b> happened when it has become a fertilized egg, it is alive. You don't abort unfertilized eggs, you abort fertilized one. We are not peventing the use of condoms or the act of sexual intercourse. We are telling you what is happening when you carry out an abortion. So what if a sperm could fertilize an egg? So what if an egg can be fertilized? That is totally out of point. The problem here is with eggs that are already fertilized. Now can we get back to discussing whether the fertilized egg is a living thing?
By definition, a still born is a baby/child that is dead at birth. How can a non living thing <b>die</b>?
Admit it, a fertilized egg is indeed a life. It is fine with me if people are pro-choice, but you can't argue that a fertilized egg is not a life, which is the centre of the controversity.
Like I said, it is their choice to make and their responsibility to take.
If you make it illegal, that won't stop the determined. Abortion has been around longer than its been legal.
DOOM just summed my thoughts up there. None of us can and will understand how a woman aborting (for whatever reason) feels, nobody of us will ever get directely into the dilemma, so our all opinions are one inch from hypocrisy in the best case.
Personally, I'd like to quote Bill Hicks, but unfortunately, all he has to say about Pro-Life and abortion contains too many swearwords.
One note: The majority of women who get abortions are middle and upper class white females. Wostly cases of the "annoying little fetus" that makes me unpopualr.
This may sound kinda extreme, but to me a person who is willing to have their child aborted, would be ok with letting a kid be used for labaratory tests or something. Dont think of it as human at all.
This is (thus far) a nice and reasoned discussion, and it *is* in the off topic section *but* there are such things as off topic and *off topic* if you get what I mean.
This site really is not the place for this sort of debate. It's a very very serious and contentious issue that should be treated with a great deal of care and discussed in the appropriate manner in the appropriate places.
Not trying to stifle peoples freedom of speech here, feel free to continue the discussion on any pro-choice or anti-abortion site but this is *really* not the appropriate place.
Thread locked.