I am totally PRO Abortion, to me there are TOO MANY damn kids running round. I mean theres like 9 billion people on this planet?! thats just too many damn people if you ask me. Lots of countrys are having problems with overpopulation like those third world countries. I mean here they are bitching and moaning that they have food shortages when they are having like seven friggin kids per house hold.... <img src='http://users.frailart.net/killymagee/cwm3.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> ( but then again I guess this is a baised post cause I *HATE* kids with a passion <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> and I know I was a kid once but I don't friggin care).
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Hmmm. I generally stay away from this topic. Mostly because I've never had to deal with the decision personally.
Generally, I take the Libertarian stance: It should not be a decision for the Federal Government. Doctors will perform these operations for women/couples who want them, but at no time should they be funded with tax dollars. The citizens of each state should decide if their state will outlaw the procedures.
It makes me uncomfortable, but if I had to choose legal or illegal, I would choose legal. I don't like to think about what happens in those procedures, but then I read stories like these : <a href='http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-child27.html' target='_blank'>http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nw...ws-child27.html</a>
For me, it's generally a no win decision: Snuff out a life that could have a chance, or take the chance of dropping these kids into the hands of monsters.
It is impossible for me to comprehend the nightmare that these kids go through. They are paying the consequences for the irresponsibilities of their "parents". If there was a way to place that consequence back on the "parents" and take it off the children, I would start immediately.
According to a mixture of fact and beliefs (buddahism, I believe), the soul enters the fetus of a child 48 days after the conception, and it is also 48 days after conception that you can tell its sex. I think this is also the time where the features start to come out, although I'm not too sure on that one.
You can find many other religeons which offer some sort of defining moment after 48 days, although a search in google isn't bringing up much (I bet I got the day wrong or something *g*).
Now, if you take this to be true, then it is technically moral to have an abortion so long as it is within 48 days, or 7 weeks, of conception.
Personally, I'm all for abortion. There are too many people on this planet as there is. Then again, this is coming from someone who thinks it would be a good idea to clip the wires of people when they're born, and then let them have them unclipped once they're past 20 or whenever... (hey, it'd sort out underage pregnancy problems!)
I'm also for fatal violence as an entertainment, on the basis that anyone who would actually go on one of these shows as a contestant should probably be put down anyway!
I'm not gonna state my opinion, but this is the steps in an abortion according to my history teacher's pamphlet:
1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head. 2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole. 3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely.
FamDiaper-Wearing Dog On A BallJoin Date: 2002-02-17Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--Scarface121+Jan 27 2003, 06:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scarface121 @ Jan 27 2003, 06:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not gonna state my opinion, but this is the steps in an abortion according to my history teacher's pamphlet:
1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head. 2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole. 3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the operative words there are <b>history</b> teacher. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not gonna state my opinion, but this is the steps in an abortion according to my history teacher's pamphlet: 1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head. 2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole. 3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take a wild guess and say that your history teacher is <i>not</i> Pro-Choice, right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean theres like 9 billion people on this planet?!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. Last time I checked, we're at 6.
[edit]Also, I think it's a safe bet that abortion <i>will</i> always be the last resort. There is literally no stronger emotional connection than that between a mother and her unborn child. Nobody will destroy that easily.[/edit]
I am pro-choice. the debate over whether the fetus is a human or not is mostly religious. what does the constitution say? seperation of church and state. we can't let one religion control politics. It has not been proven that a fetus is a sentient human... science is not a religion; science is empirically proven, and that's the only thing we can base policy on.
What happens if we outlaw abortion? people won't stop having abortions, they'll just be very, very messy. for example, the husband punching his wife in the stomach over and over to kill the baby. I think that's worse.
It's interesting in the deal of women who may die if they don't have an abortion: How come only the unborn have a right to life? (that's from barbara kruger btw)
plus the fact that it IS a dangerous procedure. any operational procedure is dangerous...
But anyway, I commend the maturity of the community, that a topic like this can make it to page 3 and not be full of flames and people threatening to kill each other over differences of opinion. Kudos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll take a wild guess and say that your history teacher is not Pro-Choice, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I go to a Catholic school, and to them being pro choice is about as bad as being anti christ...
<!--QuoteBegin--MedHead+Jan 27 2003, 08:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Jan 27 2003, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, here's my conviction (note that word - you're not going to change my mind):
Abortion is murder. Just because it's still inside the mother, doesn't mean the child isn't living.
This includes the horribly brain damaged, disfigured, and sickly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ok..... think about this.... early in devlopement the fetus has not developed a brain or any other features that would designate that it is its own seperate lifeform. As a matter of fact it could qualify as a parasite, being it needs to feed off the mother to live. Also, a young mother might not have the means to take care of the child or afford the medical bills or be able to handle alienation from society. Mistakes happen.
I think the fundamental issue at hand is when you think a fetus becomes a human being. Most pro-choicers believe that a fetus does not become sentient until at least the 2nd trimester, while all pro-lifers believe that the fetus becomes human immediately upon conception. The decision is fundamentally based on one's personal experiences and religious affiliations, and a simple argument isn't going to change that for anyone. Therefore this whole thread is pretty pointless in nature :/
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited January 2003
Not argueing something simply becuase it won't the opinions of those who argue against you breeds political apathy, and keeps those withought well-formed and set opinions from getting both sides of an issue.
what a woman does with her body is her choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Abortion is murder. Just because it's still inside the mother, doesn't mean the child isn't living.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I'm talking about: the staggering difference of opinion on both sides. Its gonna bring hell... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's my take on things:
<b>Nobody</b> on this planet can say when a person is truely alive. And, in fact, its really pointless to try. I don't even know, and I laugh at those who think they do. You could say that even a 60 year old can be aborted. To me, its all the same. I'm not on either side of the issue, and therefore will not even vote on it when the time comes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For me, it's generally a no win decision: Snuff out a life that could have a chance, or take the chance of dropping these kids into the hands of monsters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point.
I think <i>anyone dumb enough to get pregnant without considering the consequences owes it to society to rid themselves from the gene pool</i>. In the case of abortion, go ahead and take as many as you want. See if I care.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ok..... think about this.... early in devlopement the fetus has not developed a brain or any other features that would designate that it is its own seperate lifeform. As a matter of fact it could qualify as a parasite, being it needs to feed off the mother to live. Also, a young mother might not have the means to take care of the child or afford the medical bills or be able to handle alienation from society. Mistakes happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please try to understand that, to some people, you are proposing that killing a child is ok. I'm not saying that you're right or you're wrong, just please try to be a bit more sensitive.
Also, the law currently allows for the fetus to be aborted after these structures are mostly developed. Hell, the brain even continues to develop through most of your adolescence. So, once again, refer to my quote above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not gonna state my opinion, but this is the steps in an abortion according to my history teacher's pamphlet:
1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head. 2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole. 3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, and for those who were wondering, this is true. In fact, it is <b>required</b> to ensure that the fetus is dead. Not that it matters, either way its dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the fundamental issue at hand is when you think a fetus becomes a human being. Most pro-choicers believe that a fetus does not become sentient until at least the 2nd trimester, while all pro-lifers believe that the fetus becomes human immediately upon conception. The decision is fundamentally based on one's personal experiences and religious affiliations, and a simple argument isn't going to change that for anyone. Therefore this whole thread is pretty pointless in nature :/.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Chopper Dave+Jan 27 2003, 04:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chopper Dave @ Jan 27 2003, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the fundamental issue at hand is when you think a fetus becomes a human being. Most pro-choicers believe that a fetus does not become sentient until at least the 2nd trimester, while all pro-lifers believe that the fetus becomes human immediately upon conception. The decision is fundamentally based on one's personal experiences and religious affiliations, and a simple argument isn't going to change that for anyone. Therefore this whole thread is pretty pointless in nature :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfourtunately, only one side can be right regardless of whatever religious belief/experience that side has.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the fundamental issue at hand is when you think a fetus becomes a human being<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think parts of my starting thread got lost in the later pages, understood, but remember, Law of Biogenesis, humans can only create humans, so if when humans procreate what specie do they create until its sentient?
They create a human. Now which comes to my point, is it ok to kill an innocent human being no matter what the circumstances?
Yes, im speaking on a moral basis, but really, is it really ok to kill children? Opinions aside in whether or not if its a human, is it okay?
If your not willing to take the chance of having a child then dont have sex, its really that simple.
When it comes to killing an innocent person I hardly see any grey area, for me its black and white. Were not talking like killing 1 person to save the universe, were talking, daily killing hundreds of babies/soon to be babies, just because we are not owning up to the consequences of our decisions.
You guys are doing a good job with keeping this clean and flame free. Lets keep it that way.
Two words. Incest and rape. Just because you believe it's wrong for a woman to abort the fetus that is the result of an act against her will doesn't make you right.
P.S. I know women who have been the victims of both. In both cases they had to have their fetus aborted because the strain of childbirth would have killed them due to the injuries they sustained at the hands of their attackers.
<!--QuoteBegin--Someone Who Cares+Jan 27 2003, 02:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Someone Who Cares @ Jan 27 2003, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Nobody</b> on this planet can say when a person is truely alive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Being a soldier, I've seen my fair share of death, dying, and suffering. I believe a person is truely alive right before they die.
It's legal to abort a child within the first 21 weeks after conception.
Neurological activity begins in a fetus at approximately 22-23 weeks.
Women have the right to evaluate the morality of an abortion on their own given this information. Neither side has the right to force their opinion on the other.
<!--QuoteBegin--Renegade+Jan 28 2003, 05:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade @ Jan 28 2003, 05:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Being a soldier, I've seen my fair share of death, dying, and suffering. I believe a person is truely alive right before they die. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And right after they took a religous dose of psychedelics.
<!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Jan 28 2003, 04:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Jan 28 2003, 04:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's legal to abort a child within the first 21 weeks after conception.
Neurological activity begins in a fetus at approximately 22-23 weeks.
Women have the right to evaluate the morality of an abortion on their own given this information. Neither side has the right to force their opinion on the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd just like to add that abortion is still legal up to...what? 26 weeks? Someone check me on that. Also, it takes a while for a woman to realise she's pregnant anyway, so the abortion usually doesn't happen until later in the pregnancy.
I think it should be a states choice to have abortions legal or illegal but like everything in the United States it has to be the federal goverment that makes all the big decissions.
<!--QuoteBegin--Someone Who Cares+Jan 28 2003, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Someone Who Cares @ Jan 28 2003, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--PseudoKnight+Jan 28 2003, 04:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Jan 28 2003, 04:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's legal to abort a child within the first 21 weeks after conception.
Neurological activity begins in a fetus at approximately 22-23 weeks.
Women have the right to evaluate the morality of an abortion on their own given this information. Neither side has the right to force their opinion on the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd just like to add that abortion is still legal up to...what? 26 weeks? Someone check me on that. Also, it takes a while for a woman to realise she's pregnant anyway, so the abortion usually doesn't happen until later in the pregnancy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose I should word it that most physicians refuse to abort a child after 21 weeks except in special circumstances.
A woman should recognize she's pregnant within 4-5 weeks of conception unless she is taking a controceptive pill that stops menstration.
PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTION: "Used 4-1/2 to nine months. the preborn baby is rotated and delivered feet first, except for the head. The back of the neck is punctured with scissors and suction is used to suck out the brain and collapse the skull. The dead baby is fully delivered. Dr. Martin Haskell has done more than 1,000 of these late-term abortions. He said he does them 'routinely' for non-medical reasons, and that 80 percent are 'purely elective'. That means the baby was healthy and the mother had no health risks. Former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop said that 'in no way' are partial-birth abortions a 'medical necessity for the mother.' "
SUCTION: "Used in the first three months of pregnancy. A suction tube, 27 times more powerful than a home vacuum cleaner, is inserted into the opening of the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb."
DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C): "Used at the end of the third month pregnancy (approx. 12 weeks). The mother's cervix is dilated, ring forceps are inserted into the womb and the baby is extracted piece by piece. Then a curette (a sharp knife with a loop shape) is inserted and used to scrape away any of the baby or the placenta that remains. Profuse bleeding follows."
DILATION AND EXTRACTION (D&E): "Used after 13 weeks. The mother's cervix is dilated and the live, preborn child is dismembered with pliers-like forceps. With a twisting motion, the baby's body is torn apart, the spine is snapped and the skull crushed. Baby parts are often left inside the mother's womb, causing serious complications and sometimes death to the mother."
SALINE AMNIOCENTESIS: "Done after 16 weeks. A concentrated salt solution is injected with an amniocentesis needle into the amniotic fluid. The baby breathes and swallows it and dies more than an hour later of acute salt poisoning. The mother then delivers a burned, dead baby. Use has declined because of dangers for the mother - and sometimes the baby survives."
PROSTAGLANDIN: "Used late-term. A substance is injected into the amniotic sac, to cause premature labor and birth."
INTER-CARDIAC INJECTION: "Poison is injected into the chest or heart of the baby via a long needle inserted through the mother's abdomen. The dead baby is absorbed. Sometimes this results in loss of all the babies during 'pregnancy reduction' in multi-fetal pregnancies."
"BIRTH CONTROL" ABORTIONS: "RU486 methotrexate, Norplant, IUDs, Prostaglandins and Depo-Provera cause millions of early chemical abortions each year. The Pill has a 'backup' abortifacient action if conception takes place."
GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF ACTUAL ABORTED BABIES Actual photos of aborted babies. <a href='http://www.prolife.com' target='_blank'>www.prolife.com</a> <a href='http://www.cbrinfo.org' target='_blank'>www.cbrinfo.org</a>
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
Simply because this process is not pretty, does not change the fact that if it is not happening to a life, your argument falls through. Methods almost as grotesque are used to slaughter the animals that we all eat, but no one ever complains about them. Equally qrotesque methods are also used during wartime(and on people who no one will disagree as being"alive"), and I have seen you support the war we are going into now on many occasions.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Dezmodium+Feb 1 2003, 04:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dezmodium @ Feb 1 2003, 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Some people just aren't setup(usually financialy, sometimes emotionally) to <b>father/mother</b> children. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True. The problem is, these same people will repeatedly perform the one activity (aside from scientific intervention) that produces offspring without <b>ANY</b> consideration of the consequences.
Of course, why should they? It's always someone else's fault anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--Spooge+Feb 1 2003, 10:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spooge @ Feb 1 2003, 10:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course, why should they? It's always someone else's fault anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> for once i agree.
For instance, it is very easy for a woman to say aman got her pregnant. Never mind that <b>she</b> was the one who dropped the aspirin from between her knees.
As sad as it is, it is coming to the point of overpopulation and just plain carelessness that having babies should require a license.
**But then again the invisible condom should be a nice and welcomed breakthrough.**
Comments
what a woman does with her body is her choice.
(Abortion should, however, <b><i>ALWAYS</b></i> be a last resort.)
Generally, I take the Libertarian stance: It should not be a decision for the Federal Government. Doctors will perform these operations for women/couples who want them, but at no time should they be funded with tax dollars. The citizens of each state should decide if their state will outlaw the procedures.
It makes me uncomfortable, but if I had to choose legal or illegal, I would choose legal. I don't like to think about what happens in those procedures, but then I read stories like these : <a href='http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-child27.html' target='_blank'>http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nw...ws-child27.html</a>
For me, it's generally a no win decision: Snuff out a life that could have a chance, or take the chance of dropping these kids into the hands of monsters.
It is impossible for me to comprehend the nightmare that these kids go through. They are paying the consequences for the irresponsibilities of their "parents". If there was a way to place that consequence back on the "parents" and take it off the children, I would start immediately.
You can find many other religeons which offer some sort of defining moment after 48 days, although a search in google isn't bringing up much (I bet I got the day wrong or something *g*).
Now, if you take this to be true, then it is technically moral to have an abortion so long as it is within 48 days, or 7 weeks, of conception.
Personally, I'm all for abortion. There are too many people on this planet as there is. Then again, this is coming from someone who thinks it would be a good idea to clip the wires of people when they're born, and then let them have them unclipped once they're past 20 or whenever... (hey, it'd sort out underage pregnancy problems!)
I'm also for fatal violence as an entertainment, on the basis that anyone who would actually go on one of these shows as a contestant should probably be put down anyway!
Am I cold? Turn up the heat.
1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head.
2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole.
3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely.
1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head.
2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole.
3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the operative words there are <b>history</b> teacher. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head.
2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole.
3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll take a wild guess and say that your history teacher is <i>not</i> Pro-Choice, right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean theres like 9 billion people on this planet?!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. Last time I checked, we're at 6.
[edit]Also, I think it's a safe bet that abortion <i>will</i> always be the last resort. There is literally no stronger emotional connection than that between a mother and her unborn child. Nobody will destroy that easily.[/edit]
What happens if we outlaw abortion? people won't stop having abortions, they'll just be very, very messy. for example, the husband punching his wife in the stomach over and over to kill the baby. I think that's worse.
It's interesting in the deal of women who may die if they don't have an abortion: How come only the unborn have a right to life? (that's from barbara kruger btw)
But anyway, I commend the maturity of the community, that a topic like this can make it to page 3 and not be full of flames and people threatening to kill each other over differences of opinion. Kudos.
I go to a Catholic school, and to them being pro choice is about as bad as being anti christ...
Abortion is murder. Just because it's still inside the mother, doesn't mean the child isn't living.
This includes the horribly brain damaged, disfigured, and sickly.
Abortion is murder. Just because it's still inside the mother, doesn't mean the child isn't living.
This includes the horribly brain damaged, disfigured, and sickly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok..... think about this.... early in devlopement the fetus has not developed a brain or any other features that would designate that it is its own seperate lifeform. As a matter of fact it could qualify as a parasite, being it needs to feed off the mother to live. Also, a young mother might not have the means to take care of the child or afford the medical bills or be able to handle alienation from society. Mistakes happen.
*edit*bad grammerxor*edit*
what a woman does with her body is her choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Abortion is murder. Just because it's still inside the mother, doesn't mean the child isn't living.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I'm talking about: the staggering difference of opinion on both sides. Its gonna bring hell... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's my take on things:
<b>Nobody</b> on this planet can say when a person is truely alive. And, in fact, its really pointless to try. I don't even know, and I laugh at those who think they do. You could say that even a 60 year old can be aborted. To me, its all the same. I'm not on either side of the issue, and therefore will not even vote on it when the time comes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For me, it's generally a no win decision: Snuff out a life that could have a chance, or take the chance of dropping these kids into the hands of monsters.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point.
I think <i>anyone dumb enough to get pregnant without considering the consequences owes it to society to rid themselves from the gene pool</i>. In the case of abortion, go ahead and take as many as you want. See if I care.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ok..... think about this.... early in devlopement the fetus has not developed a brain or any other features that would designate that it is its own seperate lifeform. As a matter of fact it could qualify as a parasite, being it needs to feed off the mother to live. Also, a young mother might not have the means to take care of the child or afford the medical bills or be able to handle alienation from society. Mistakes happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please try to understand that, to some people, you are proposing that killing a child is ok. I'm not saying that you're right or you're wrong, just please try to be a bit more sensitive.
Also, the law currently allows for the fetus to be aborted after these structures are mostly developed. Hell, the brain even continues to develop through most of your adolescence. So, once again, refer to my quote above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not gonna state my opinion, but this is the steps in an abortion according to my history teacher's pamphlet:
1. A large forceps is used to turn the baby into the correct position, and pulls the baby out of the mother except the head.
2. Scissors are jammed into the back of the baby's head and opened to make a large hole.
3. The baby's brains and skull are sucked out by a tube and the baby is removed completely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, and for those who were wondering, this is true. In fact, it is <b>required</b> to ensure that the fetus is dead. Not that it matters, either way its dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the fundamental issue at hand is when you think a fetus becomes a human being. Most pro-choicers believe that a fetus does not become sentient until at least the 2nd trimester, while all pro-lifers believe that the fetus becomes human immediately upon conception. The decision is fundamentally based on one's personal experiences and religious affiliations, and a simple argument isn't going to change that for anyone. Therefore this whole thread is pretty pointless in nature :/.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That pretty much sums it up...
Unfourtunately, only one side can be right regardless of whatever religious belief/experience that side has.
I think parts of my starting thread got lost in the later pages, understood, but remember, Law of Biogenesis, humans can only create humans, so if when humans procreate what specie do they create until its sentient?
They create a human. Now which comes to my point, is it ok to kill an innocent human being no matter what the circumstances?
Yes, im speaking on a moral basis, but really, is it really ok to kill children? Opinions aside in whether or not if its a human, is it okay?
If your not willing to take the chance of having a child then dont have sex, its really that simple.
When it comes to killing an innocent person I hardly see any grey area, for me its black and white. Were not talking like killing 1 person to save the universe, were talking, daily killing hundreds of babies/soon to be babies, just because we are not owning up to the consequences of our decisions.
You guys are doing a good job with keeping this clean and flame free. Lets keep it that way.
P.S. I know women who have been the victims of both. In both cases they had to have their fetus aborted because the strain of childbirth would have killed them due to the injuries they sustained at the hands of their attackers.
Being a soldier, I've seen my fair share of death, dying, and suffering. I believe a person is truely alive right before they die.
Neurological activity begins in a fetus at approximately 22-23 weeks.
Women have the right to evaluate the morality of an abortion on their own given this information. Neither side has the right to force their opinion on the other.
And right after they took a religous dose of psychedelics.
Neurological activity begins in a fetus at approximately 22-23 weeks.
Women have the right to evaluate the morality of an abortion on their own given this information. Neither side has the right to force their opinion on the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd just like to add that abortion is still legal up to...what? 26 weeks? Someone check me on that. Also, it takes a while for a woman to realise she's pregnant anyway, so the abortion usually doesn't happen until later in the pregnancy.
Neurological activity begins in a fetus at approximately 22-23 weeks.
Women have the right to evaluate the morality of an abortion on their own given this information. Neither side has the right to force their opinion on the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd just like to add that abortion is still legal up to...what? 26 weeks? Someone check me on that. Also, it takes a while for a woman to realise she's pregnant anyway, so the abortion usually doesn't happen until later in the pregnancy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose I should word it that most physicians refuse to abort a child after 21 weeks except in special circumstances.
A woman should recognize she's pregnant within 4-5 weeks of conception unless she is taking a controceptive pill that stops menstration.
PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTION:
"Used 4-1/2 to nine months. the preborn baby is rotated and delivered feet first, except for the head. The back of the neck is punctured with scissors and suction is used to suck out the brain and collapse the skull. The dead baby is fully delivered.
Dr. Martin Haskell has done more than 1,000 of these late-term abortions. He said he does them 'routinely' for non-medical reasons, and that 80 percent are 'purely elective'. That means the baby was healthy and the mother had no health risks. Former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop said that 'in no way' are partial-birth abortions a 'medical necessity for the mother.' "
SUCTION:
"Used in the first three months of pregnancy. A suction tube, 27 times more powerful than a home vacuum cleaner, is inserted into the opening of the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb."
DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C):
"Used at the end of the third month pregnancy (approx. 12 weeks). The mother's cervix is dilated, ring forceps are inserted into the womb and the baby is extracted piece by piece. Then a curette (a sharp knife with a loop shape) is inserted and used to scrape away any of the baby or the placenta that remains. Profuse bleeding follows."
DILATION AND EXTRACTION (D&E):
"Used after 13 weeks. The mother's cervix is dilated and the live, preborn child is dismembered with pliers-like forceps. With a twisting motion, the baby's body is torn apart, the spine is snapped and the skull crushed. Baby parts are often left inside the mother's womb, causing serious complications and sometimes death to the mother."
SALINE AMNIOCENTESIS:
"Done after 16 weeks. A concentrated salt solution is injected with an amniocentesis needle into the amniotic fluid. The baby breathes and swallows it and dies more than an hour later of acute salt poisoning. The mother then delivers a burned, dead baby. Use has declined because of dangers for the mother - and sometimes the baby survives."
PROSTAGLANDIN:
"Used late-term. A substance is injected into the amniotic sac, to cause premature labor and birth."
INTER-CARDIAC INJECTION:
"Poison is injected into the chest or heart of the baby via a long needle inserted through the mother's abdomen. The dead baby is absorbed. Sometimes this results in loss of all the babies during 'pregnancy reduction' in multi-fetal pregnancies."
"BIRTH CONTROL" ABORTIONS:
"RU486 methotrexate, Norplant, IUDs, Prostaglandins and Depo-Provera cause millions of early chemical abortions each year. The Pill has a 'backup' abortifacient action if conception takes place."
GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF ACTUAL ABORTED BABIES
Actual photos of aborted babies.
<a href='http://www.prolife.com' target='_blank'>www.prolife.com</a>
<a href='http://www.cbrinfo.org' target='_blank'>www.cbrinfo.org</a>
Methods almost as grotesque are used to slaughter the animals that we all eat, but no one ever complains about them. Equally qrotesque methods are also used during wartime(and on people who no one will disagree as being"alive"), and I have seen you support the war we are going into now on many occasions.
Whats worse? Being aborted as a fetus or living a life that makes you wish you were aborted?
Some people just aren't setup(usually financialy, sometimes emotionally) to <b>father/mother</b> children.
True. The problem is, these same people will repeatedly perform the one activity (aside from scientific intervention) that produces offspring without <b>ANY</b> consideration of the consequences.
Of course, why should they? It's always someone else's fault anyway.
for once i agree.
For instance, it is very easy for a woman to say aman got her pregnant. Never mind that <b>she</b> was the one who dropped the aspirin from between her knees.
As sad as it is, it is coming to the point of overpopulation and just plain carelessness that having babies should require a license.
**But then again the invisible condom should be a nice and welcomed breakthrough.**