[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited January 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Jan 23 2003, 04:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Jan 23 2003, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately, your release philosophy does not agree with Flayra's. The best you can do is make your points, which you have done, and hope he sees it your way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> true, I retract my statement about the inability of "finding one 1.03 linux admin that doesn't want the upgrade" and would like to swap it out for "finding two 1.03 linux admins that don't want the upgrade." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Jan 23 2003, 04:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Jan 23 2003, 04:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think you can find a single admin that actually runs 1.03 linux that wouldnt want an upgrade. Not a single one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I run an 18 player server on a Linux box , and I personally would NOT want a patch for it that was still in testing! My server may be the exception , but I don't have many problems with it other then the usual no motion tracking and stuff. Most times , when full , pings are sub 100. An untested and undebugged patch would quite likely be more a pain for me. But this is my personal situation , and I also see where your coming from.
However , this thread is starting to remind me of the thread.. "A reminder to server admins ... Your clients are your customers"
Just as that guy said that server operators had a responsibility to make there servers for the sole purpose of pleasing a "client" , you are saying that the Dev team has the same responsibility to the server operators? My response to this is the same as it was to that guy , NO , Not true!!
This is there baby , there's to do with as they please. And if we are lucky , we will get to play with there new toys when they are ready to give them to us. Until then , I'll keep doing what I've been doin , checking the website twice a day everyday for the release.
I wrote some other stuff, but decided not to post it, because it is out of fustration. They can pick who they want to beta test and they can beta test for as long as they want. I guess I won't be part of the 'In crowd'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wrote some other stuff, but decided not to post it, because it is out of fustration.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
didn't stop me earlier <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited January 2003
the difference between this thread and the "you players are your clients" one is that I'm not demanding that the ns team change their policy.
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why they've decided to take the route of "dangling a carrot in front of us" instead of letting us help ourselves out a little.
If I didn't 100% love the mod, then I wouldn't be so adamant about this. Take DOD for example, I ran a server for about 3 days, decided that it blew chunks, and stopped. Whereas with NS, I want to host bigger/better games and the fact that 1.03 is all I can use on my linux server is a MAJOR hurdle to hosting those bigger/better games. And the fix is just sitting out there. It wouldn't be a single shred of additional work to the dev team if the policy were slightly altered to allow sharing of the betas.
I already know that I will never be a part of "the circle". I can't count the number of times I've been banned or locked out of discussing some aspect of NS by an admin of an irc channel or a forum moderator. I'll just have to live with the fact that I won't be getting the latest beta's all the time. But I really think this case should be an exception, The linux enhancements have been done for the better part of a month and it's still sitting under lock and key. Even if it does have bugs, they're still "fast" bugs.
Just adding my two cents (Which will be worth not quite so much by the time you read this, due to inflation):
Who here remembers the HL modification "Wasteland Half-Life"?
Okay, cool. Probably one of you. But that's okay, it really doesn't matter.
Who here knows why the original developers said "To hell with it!" and left?
Apparently, not so many. This is something that I know about because I spoke to one of the former developers of Wasteland Half-Life directly for advice when I was on the JailBreak development team (as a lacky, more than anything else).
He told me that two things brought Wasteland Half-Life down:
1. Disagreements within the team about gameplay changes. Some people wanted ABC and others wanted XYZ. Apparently, some were too stubborn to compromise. However, he mentioned that this wasn't nearly so bad as:
2. The community. The community was constantly clamoring for this and that, were pushy, kept asking the same questions repeatedly (ie, "Can I beta test? Why not? Come on guys!"), and in general weren't very nice. He felt that his efforts were not really being appreciated; He felt like he was being used.
Does this sound like you?
The developers who make this game what it is make decisions. You may not agree with the decisions, and asking them why they made those decisions and recommending changes isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, constantly nagging on them and making a scene simply frustrates them. Who wants to work all those hours for someone who's being unappreciative? It's like being married! (Sorry gals, but I've just had bad experiences!)
So just settle down. It's their mod - let them make the rules. The patches will be released when the developers feel that it's all ready.
Yes, banning the llamas who exploit the game (That marine skin cheat drives me up the wall) does get tiring. Yes, it would be fantastic to have balance changes and bug fixes. But people clamoring left and right for something the developers are not ready to release yet just makes the whole situation worse.
For those interested in what happened to Wasteland Half-Life, someone from the remnants of the team took it over and renamed it "The Wastes" - and I'll be honest, the original is best. But it's not my mod, no one forces me to play it, so that's that.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited January 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--ObsidianAtheme+Jan 23 2003, 08:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ObsidianAtheme @ Jan 23 2003, 08:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He told me that two things brought Wasteland Half-Life down:
1. Disagreements within the team about gameplay changes. Some people wanted ABC and others wanted XYZ. Apparently, some were too stubborn to compromise. However, he mentioned that this wasn't nearly so bad as:
2. The community. The community was constantly clamoring for this and that, were pushy, kept asking the same questions repeatedly (ie, "Can I beta test? Why not? Come on guys!"), and in general weren't very nice. He felt that his efforts were not really being appreciated; He felt like he was being used.
Does this sound like you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> point taken, I'll shut up now.
As long as they are finally doing something about the Linux, win32 imbalance I'm content to wait. Personally I'd prefer an official release. Apposed to a buggy beta test patch. I think Flayra has done and continues to do a great job. I would have liked to see the Linux optimized versions started on the day they released 1.02. But at least they are finally doing something about it. (even if it did take calling his linux version garbage to finally get him to wake up to the problem)
And Them, you've made your point, Why continue to just whine about it? You've been told the reasons why they want it done this way several times. You just don't agree with them. And although I've yet to meet one person who’s joined the IRC channels and hasn't got banned for some stupid reason (like join/part messages etc), everyone seems to agree that they are all idiots adminning it. (The main reason I have never, nor will ever join said channels) I can't say I blame them for banning you. You where only asked to stop, what 3-4 times.
PS: I too would love to have ANY type of optimization fix released, regardless of the bugs.
Aye, I too am conflicted about this. I just really feel like I am at a large disadvantage for not having access to the patch, as opposed to others (and clans) that do, and have free access to play and test on it.
By the way, thanks for the offer Joe, I'll be in contact via IRC... I would love to have access to a 1.04 server where we can host scrims.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. The community. The community was constantly clamoring for this and that, were pushy, kept asking the same questions repeatedly (ie, "Can I beta test? Why not? Come on guys!"), and in general weren't very nice. He felt that his efforts were not really being appreciated; He felt like he was being used.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.) Then that is his decision. CS was the same way and yet they still seem to have made a great mod.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So just settle down. It's their mod - let them make the rules. The patches will be released when the developers feel that it's all ready. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is their mod and if they want to do things to alienate players and server owners then that is fine. Notbody is disputing that.
As for wastelands, it wasn't that great of a mod. I am sure that the lack of players had something to do with it's demise. It is always easy to blame a community that springs up around a mod, but if you have been around a while you will notice that the DoD, CS, NS, etc communities are the same.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Jan 23 2003, 06:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Jan 23 2003, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->true, I retract my statement about the inability of "finding one 1.03 linux admin that doesn't want the upgrade" and would like to swap it out for "finding two 1.03 linux admins that don't want the upgrade."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, you interpreted my statement wrong. I want an upgrade, but I'll take it when Flayra is ready to give it to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Jan 25 2003, 02:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Jan 25 2003, 02:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll take it when Flayra is ready to give it to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn. Sometimes things just come out...wrong...
<!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Jan 24 2003, 04:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Jan 24 2003, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Jan 25 2003, 02:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Jan 25 2003, 02:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll take it when Flayra is ready to give it to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damn. Sometimes things just come out...wrong...
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL, No comment.
And for all the ppl whineing they cant have the beta-test releases. Have you never ran beta software? This is the standard way most authors do thier testings (with beta testers). Someone could make a small fortune selling cheese to all these ppl with thier whines.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you never ran beta software?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well beta is a very general term..... I seem to remember running counter-strike beta versions for over a year straight before it went to 1.0
Comments
true, I retract my statement about the inability of "finding one 1.03 linux admin that doesn't want the upgrade" and would like to swap it out for "finding two 1.03 linux admins that don't want the upgrade." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I run an 18 player server on a Linux box , and I personally would NOT want a patch for it that was still in testing! My server may be the exception , but I don't have many problems with it other then the usual no motion tracking and stuff. Most times , when full , pings are sub 100. An untested and undebugged patch would quite likely be more a pain for me. But this is my personal situation , and I also see where your coming from.
However , this thread is starting to remind me of the thread.. "A reminder to server admins ... Your clients are your customers"
Just as that guy said that server operators had a responsibility to make there servers for the sole purpose of pleasing a "client" , you are saying that the Dev team has the same responsibility to the server operators? My response to this is the same as it was to that guy , NO , Not true!!
This is there baby , there's to do with as they please. And if we are lucky , we will get to play with there new toys when they are ready to give them to us. Until then , I'll keep doing what I've been doin , checking the website twice a day everyday for the release.
Just my opinion.
I wrote some other stuff, but decided not to post it, because it is out of fustration. They can pick who they want to beta test and they can beta test for as long as they want. I guess I won't be part of the 'In crowd'.
didn't stop me earlier <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lorn
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why they've decided to take the route of "dangling a carrot in front of us" instead of letting us help ourselves out a little.
If I didn't 100% love the mod, then I wouldn't be so adamant about this. Take DOD for example, I ran a server for about 3 days, decided that it blew chunks, and stopped. Whereas with NS, I want to host bigger/better games and the fact that 1.03 is all I can use on my linux server is a MAJOR hurdle to hosting those bigger/better games. And the fix is just sitting out there. It wouldn't be a single shred of additional work to the dev team if the policy were slightly altered to allow sharing of the betas.
I already know that I will never be a part of "the circle". I can't count the number of times I've been banned or locked out of discussing some aspect of NS by an admin of an irc channel or a forum moderator. I'll just have to live with the fact that I won't be getting the latest beta's all the time. But I really think this case should be an exception, The linux enhancements have been done for the better part of a month and it's still sitting under lock and key. Even if it does have bugs, they're still "fast" bugs.
Who here remembers the HL modification "Wasteland Half-Life"?
Okay, cool. Probably one of you. But that's okay, it really doesn't matter.
Who here knows why the original developers said "To hell with it!" and left?
Apparently, not so many. This is something that I know about because I spoke to one of the former developers of Wasteland Half-Life directly for advice when I was on the JailBreak development team (as a lacky, more than anything else).
He told me that two things brought Wasteland Half-Life down:
1. Disagreements within the team about gameplay changes. Some people wanted ABC and others wanted XYZ. Apparently, some were too stubborn to compromise. However, he mentioned that this wasn't nearly so bad as:
2. The community. The community was constantly clamoring for this and that, were pushy, kept asking the same questions repeatedly (ie, "Can I beta test? Why not? Come on guys!"), and in general weren't very nice. He felt that his efforts were not really being appreciated; He felt like he was being used.
Does this sound like you?
The developers who make this game what it is make decisions. You may not agree with the decisions, and asking them why they made those decisions and recommending changes isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, constantly nagging on them and making a scene simply frustrates them. Who wants to work all those hours for someone who's being unappreciative? It's like being married! (Sorry gals, but I've just had bad experiences!)
So just settle down. It's their mod - let them make the rules. The patches will be released when the developers feel that it's all ready.
Yes, banning the llamas who exploit the game (That marine skin cheat drives me up the wall) does get tiring. Yes, it would be fantastic to have balance changes and bug fixes. But people clamoring left and right for something the developers are not ready to release yet just makes the whole situation worse.
For those interested in what happened to Wasteland Half-Life, someone from the remnants of the team took it over and renamed it "The Wastes" - and I'll be honest, the original is best. But it's not my mod, no one forces me to play it, so that's that.
1. Disagreements within the team about gameplay changes. Some people wanted ABC and others wanted XYZ. Apparently, some were too stubborn to compromise. However, he mentioned that this wasn't nearly so bad as:
2. The community. The community was constantly clamoring for this and that, were pushy, kept asking the same questions repeatedly (ie, "Can I beta test? Why not? Come on guys!"), and in general weren't very nice. He felt that his efforts were not really being appreciated; He felt like he was being used.
Does this sound like you?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
point taken, I'll shut up now.
And Them, you've made your point, Why continue to just whine about it? You've been told the reasons why they want it done this way several times. You just don't agree with them. And although I've yet to meet one person who’s joined the IRC channels and hasn't got banned for some stupid reason (like join/part messages etc), everyone seems to agree that they are all idiots adminning it. (The main reason I have never, nor will ever join said channels) I can't say I blame them for banning you. You where only asked to stop, what 3-4 times.
PS: I too would love to have ANY type of optimization fix released, regardless of the bugs.
By the way, thanks for the offer Joe, I'll be in contact via IRC... I would love to have access to a 1.04 server where we can host scrims.
1.) Then that is his decision. CS was the same way and yet they still seem to have made a great mod.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So just settle down. It's their mod - let them make the rules. The patches will be released when the developers feel that it's all ready.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is their mod and if they want to do things to alienate players and server owners then that is fine. Notbody is disputing that.
As for wastelands, it wasn't that great of a mod. I am sure that the lack of players had something to do with it's demise. It is always easy to blame a community that springs up around a mod, but if you have been around a while you will notice that the DoD, CS, NS, etc communities are the same.
Ah, you interpreted my statement wrong. I want an upgrade, but I'll take it when Flayra is ready to give it to me.
Damn. Sometimes things just come out...wrong...
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Damn. Sometimes things just come out...wrong...
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL, No comment.
And for all the ppl whineing they cant have the beta-test releases. Have you never ran beta software? This is the standard way most authors do thier testings (with beta testers). Someone could make a small fortune selling cheese to all these ppl with thier whines.
well beta is a very general term..... I seem to remember running counter-strike beta versions for over a year straight before it went to 1.0