At This Point I've Stopped Caring About Bans

[WHO]Them · January 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">this isn't a flame</div> This is a conversation that took place on #nsserver just a short time ago, it relates to the new betas and why they are not available in *some* fashion.

This is NOT intended to flame any specific party in any way, I do not blame prodigy for not wanting to talk to me, but I still feel this conversation should be brought to a logical ending. And since I'm banned from both #naturalselection for discussing the patches as well as #nsserver, this is my last bastion of public speech on the topic of natural selection.

I will begin by posting the irc conversation verbatim from the channel, hopefully it won't get mistranslated....

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
[21:10] <[WHO]Them> [20:30] <HoundDawg|UA> Scottl: it's easier for the coding team to support a limited number of beta testers than everyone under the sun....... How in the hell can you state that when most of us have already said that we won't complain about a damn thing in the beta as long as we can try it out
[21:12] <[WHO]Them> I mean, what the hell....
[21:12] <[WHO]Them> I can understand not wanting to provide the space or bandwidth for ppl to download.....
[21:12] <[WHO]Them> I can understand not wanting bug reports from non-testers.....
[21:12] <[WHO]Them> I can even understand personal pride to some extent.....
[21:13] <[WHO]Them> but can't we sign some damn waiver to be like a "second string" beta users, some kinda waiver that sez something to the effect of "I will not **** about this beta, I understand that it will probably have bugs, I can always switch back if I can't take it."
[21:13] <prodigy> no
[21:14] <prodigy> this show is run how flayra runs it. You can not complain. Its FREE. More importantly, you merely enjoy the fruits of his work, and he doesn't want you adding uncessarily to it.
[21:14] <[WHO]Them> well give me a solid reason besides.... "we don't want to support more beta testers" or "it has bugs", the waiver would clearly eliminate those
[21:14] <prodigy> the waiver would only generate more work
[21:15] <[WHO]Them> make it damn informal, ****, I'll even put all the work into it
[21:15] <prodigy> negative
[21:15] <CrackerJackMack> my understanding is Flayra is swamped
[21:15] <CrackerJackMack> didn't he just get a job too?
[21:15] <prodigy> he is trying to work on 1.1
[21:15] <[WHO]Them> I understand that he's swamped, he doesn't have to make betas faster or anything, all I'm asking is that he give permission for beta testers to leak it out to "intelligent" server ops
[21:15] <prodigy> you see, the reason its at 1.04 now, is because previous patches were not given enouhg testing
[21:16] <[WHO]Them> yeah, but they still kept coming out
[21:16] <[WHO]Them> because they fixed things
[21:16] <prodigy> so, we've changed the way we do things
[21:16] <[WHO]Them> fixed things that couldnt wait
[21:16] <prodigy> releasing a patch, uses bandwidth
[21:16] <prodigy> and also resources of everyone, to update it
[21:16] <[WHO]Them> I already stated that he doesn't have to publically host it!!!!!
[21:16] <[WHO]Them> l...e...a...k...
[21:16] <[WHO]Them> meaning I would have to bug someone that already has it for it
[21:17] <prodigy> no
[21:17] <prodigy> please don't discuss this further as it will not change anything
[21:17] <[WHO]Them> I don't understand the problem with the new system other than that he wants to keep everything buddy buddy
[21:17] <[WHO]Them> and buddy buddy just pisses people off
[21:18] *** Quits: EvilGrin (~gking@pc-80-192-171-42-pr.blueyonder.co.uk) (*.net *.split)
[21:18] *** Quits: joe (joe@dsl081-070-192.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (*.net *.split)
[21:18] <prodigy> The idea behind the beta is that those involved will report bugs and help produce a finer more stable product. If you are not testing, then you do not need the patch. End of story. Please move on.
[21:18] <[WHO]Them> yes, I DO NEED THE PATCH, why ? because IT'S BETTER THAN WHAT I HAVE NOW
[21:18] <[WHO]Them> any improvement is better than no improvement
[21:18] <[WHO]Them> it's called progress
[21:19] <CrackerJackMack> lol [WHO]Them, go get drunk...or goto sleep if you are drunk <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>
[21:19] <prodigy> In some cases, in the example of 1.04a -> d they were a regression
[21:19] <[WHO]Them> then I could always go back to 1.04a, you know why, cuz im not an official tester
[21:19] <prodigy> so please drop the issue. Things are as they are, and your whining/complaining/pleading will not change that
[21:19] <[WHO]Them> yes, it will
[21:19] <prodigy> no, no it won't
[21:19] <[WHO]Them> any amount of properly structured arguments can change things
[21:19] <prodigy> !kb [WHO]Them ALERT: TROLL
[21:19] *** ChanServ sets mode: -v [WHO]Them
[21:19] *** ChanServ sets mode: +b *!*@216.39.172.128
[21:19] *** You were kicked by ChanServ (ALERT: TROLL (prodigy))
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

now, having posted that, I would like to draw your attention back to the key points of the conversation......
1. I understand that the development team is working as hard as they can
2. I understand that the beta team is reporting bugs as fast as they can
3. I understand that releasing software online requires bandwidth to host
4. I understand that the beta patches are NOT bug-free
5. I understand that the nobody on the development end wants more beta TESTERS
6. The newer patches have significant performance enhancements in linux over 1.03 servers
7. The newer patches have fixed *known* bugs in 1.03 such as alien->marine exploit and resource donation exploit

now, what I don't understand is why people with the patch do not have permission to individually give it out to intelligent admins that acknowledge all 7 of the above points.
admins that:
-will NOT whine about new bugs (counteracting points 1, 2, 4, and 5 above)
-will NOT submit posts asking for help in fixing said bugs(also counteracting points 1, 2, 4, and 5 above)
-will NOT hassle the dev team to work faster (counteracting points 1 and 5)
-WILL go back to 1.03 if they have a problem with a newer patch (counteracting point 4)
-will NOT be a thorn in anyone's side for any reason whatsoever about problems with the newest patches(counteracting points 1, 2, 4, and 5)

the reason I state that it would be individually given out by people with the patch to intelligent admins is because it's the easiest method I can think of to counteract point 3.

Now, I have stated every problem with releasing the patches by a decentralized system that I have received from "the inner circle" that I have encountered so far. And every time I refute them I simply get stonewalled by repetitive reply's that simply state a point that I have already counteracted and bans.

and I ask.... "why ?"

Sirus · January 2003

I completely understand. In the hands of a responsible admin this idea can be nothing short of perfect. However, If you think about it, if it keeps leaking then your going to have quite a bit of servers with it, then v.1.04j is going to come out and your going to have hundreds of server ranging from 1.04a-z.

And then everything is going to be a mess. Its much more orderly this way. It's not too much longer til it will be released.

The problem truly is that it probably won't just get to your server and a couple others. It will probably massively leak and not everyone is going to just switch back 1.03 if theres problems. Plus one of the ideas of beta's is so that Dev's can get direct feedback. There is no actual reason for it to be public.

[WHO]Them · January 2003

1. I don't believe it would become "a mess" of 1.04a-z servers, because any admin that lets something like that happen probably has an empty server anyways because they lack the attention needed to host a good server.

2. </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It's not too much longer til it will be released </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> .... I honestly believed that 2 weeks ago.

3. I understand the devs don't want feedback, I'll shut my big trap about any problems with the new patches, and as I understand it they have an individual board for beta testers.

The simple fact remains that there are people that WILL read this post that are in possesion of a piece of software that will take my 18 player linux server that regularly gives players of 250+ ping and make it give those same people sub-100 pings. I don't know an admin of a "good" server that wouldn't sell their own mother for that piece of software. If it didn't exist then that would be a different story, but it EXISTS, right this very moment. It's binary data is in over 50 locations around the world right this second

DarkTele · January 2003

[WHO]Them you sound like a little pestering kid leave them alone and let them get on what they are doing!!

people like you are "Sometimes" the reason these things take even logger then they do so stop knocking flayra, and how him and his testers wanna run stuff!!

that was sorta a flam to u Them hehe <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

scottl · January 2003

Well all i got to say is im behind you [who]Them, It should be released @ this stage of the game., Buggy or not. I Realize that its not a democracy or anything but the improvments from 1.03 to now 1.04i(i think) is alot, and should be released. It would be nice to have flaya respond back and not one of his minions posting for him(get that alot). Nothing personal just, jeez!. and, What performance boosts(if any) are there?, I know flayra is using a more stable and newer compiler(gcc) than before, that affect anything?

Oooh!, Love that freedom of speech!, hehe

[WHO]Them · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkTele @ Jan 22 2003, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>stop knocking flayra</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I'm not knocking flayra at all.

Flayra is my "Idol of the month."

I'm not asking for faster development, for all I care the development could literally stop in its tracks right this moment. I'm just asking for him to say one little sentence to his beta testers...

"It's ok if you guys give this out to admins that you feel can handle it."

thats all I want. Sweet and easy, if I personally decide that the benefits of a new patch are not worth the losses then that's my own problem. I won't bug a soul about it as long as I have the option to decide what's worth what for myself.

this whole situation boils down to basically the same problem of "republican thinking" versus "democratic thinking". The people of the "inner circle" have decided that I don't know what's best for my own server and I'm not going to take that kind of decision making lying down.

pharmacist · January 2003

bottom line... this whole mess is a joke... whats the purpose of complaining about something that is free? This game has caused so many conflicts its unreal and has gotten to the point that I dont even want to play it anymore. Or even host a server. Back to counter-strike for me.
At least when people complain... they say what they got to say once rather than the issue becoming a huge snowball and taken out of context.

j0e · January 2003

its totally not my decision, and i feel your pain, but if he started letting more people have it, both of these things willl happen:

1) he has to spend time vetting people who want it - time he doesnt have

2) inevitably it would leak and then these forums would be full of people asking questions and filing bugs about the wrong version (the a to z problem)

[WHO]Them · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (j0e @ Jan 23 2003, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>its totally not my decision, and i feel your pain, but if he started letting more people have it, both of these things willl happen:

1) he has to spend time vetting people who want it - time he doesnt have

2) inevitably it would leak and then these forums would be full of people asking questions and filing bugs about the wrong version (the a to z problem)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
that's just it, I'm not asking for a direct release from any specific site. If my new plan were implemented then it wouldn't include a single bit of work from flayra or the dev team at all. It would simply require a little more work from the beta testers in that they would actually have to tolerate some messages asking for the newest release.

I'm asking that each of the beta testers suddenly becomes a deputy of sorts in which they can give out the beta to people if they choose to. No more, no less.

If I can't convince someone with the beta to give it to me then that's my problem. But as it stands I know that none will let it out simply because they know they don't have permission.

cracker_jackmac · January 2003

Why the hell would anyone want to release buggy patches (excluding microsoft here)<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

I'd rather wait for something that works rather than running a leaked (not to mention not working) copy of 1.04.

It wouldn't be fair if everyone got the win32 version but not the linux version because all linux servers would then be forever empty. thats not cool.

I mean, geez, can't you wait or did you eat too much sugar again??? Its not like you paid for it, but lets be real. Leaked patches are crap. They haven't been leaked why? ______ BECAUSE THEY DON'T WORK!!!

just my opinion

Brutus · January 2003

Them, I understand what you are saying. I to would like the patch, but I have basicaly been told no by Flayra. I found it suprising considering I was a mirror for NS and the patches. I won't knock the game, or Flayra, but I am getting a little tired of the elitest attitude that this mod seems perpetrate. It may not be intentional, but it is happening.

Please don't take this as a knock, I think the mod is good, and I have always supported mod developers. I have a server and I don't even play NS, that is how much I support it.

This game is to small to start driving people away, unless that is your intention.

Dan_Forever · January 2003

Them, I can understand the point you're trying to make. Problem is, you say you'd want a copy of 1.04*, but it wouldn't have to be from Flayra, to let him spend his time on other things, he just has to give permission to the PTs or whoever to hand the patch out. Problem is, not everyone is going to know about points 1-7. You'll get a lot of people reporting bugs, using up the dev's time with bugs they already knew about.

I can pretty much see the "mess scenario" happening, with loads of servers on different versions, which makes the above point even worse, as the bug's will already have been fixed.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><i>Originally posted by DarkTele</i>
[WHO]Them you sound like a little pestering kid leave them alone and let them get on what they are doing!!

people like you are "Sometimes" the reason these things take even logger then they do so stop knocking flayra, and how him and his testers wanna run stuff!!

that was sorta a flam to u Them hehe <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Actually, you sound like a kid. Them has a well structured post, with, as far as I can tell, correct grammer and spelling, it was also not meant as a flame or a dig at anyone, whereas your post, well, I'll let the last line speak for itself.

EnemyWithin · January 2003

I agree with Them, but not necessarily his methods <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

If Flayra wants to keep the beta testing closed, then by all means do it. But it should be on *private* servers. When you run the code on public servers, you are now inviting anyone to come in and play it. Where do you think most people will want to play? On the older v1.03 servers or the newly patched v1.04 servers?

Brutus is correct that this creates an elitist attitude and separates the server community. I run an NS server because I love the mod, but it's very annoying to have to go play on someone else's server to test out the new stuff.

Keep it private (server and clients), or release it to the public.

GoleX · January 2003

Aye, I too can understand why it is kept under wraps (easier distribution etc.) but once again I find myself agreeing with Brutus. My point is different though, every major clan that my clan scrims, is on the 1.04 beta list. Now this puts us at a huge huge disadvantage, because they have alot more practice on 1.04 then we do (people like sYn, ReD etc.). I don't mean to brag, but we are one of the major clans in NS, and I not only want the patch to help bug report (I've been doing my fair share of that to Flayra when he spectates our scrims) but I also want to be able to practice on it with my clan.

But again, I understand why its kept closed etc. (I too have bugged Flayra about it, and been shot down)... I just wish our competition didn't have it... hehee.

[WHO]Them · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cracker jackmac @ Jan 23 2003, 06:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They haven't been leaked why? ______ BECAUSE THEY DON'T WORK!!!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I still have the opinion that even though the patches do not work 100%, they would still be a step up from consistent 250+ pings. I'm not asking for fully working patches out faster. I'm just asking that us linux admins get the chance to basically say "ok, the hell with that comm chair bug, we're upgrading". Because honestly, if you don't run a linux server then I can see why you would be so easy going about not upgrading. Running 1.03 on windows seems to work as 1.03 was designed to work. This is not the case for linux.

Roobubba · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dan Forever @ Jan 23 2003, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>... with, as far as I can tell, correct grammer and spelling...</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Man I love it when that happens

Morose · January 2003

To anyone with an IOTA of experience in development, it should be readily apparent why they don't want beta "leaks". It's called version control and it's the nastiest part of getting patches out. They said no... now stop asking. If you just can't understand why they said no, then I'm sorry. Nothing I can say or do will change that.

[WHO]Them · January 2003

I do have experience in development. I have also heard of the term "temporary patch".

The reason I can't understand why they don't release it is because I still have not encountered a single reason as to why not that didn't show up in my 7-point list. And I believe that all of my counterpoints are valid. Which still leaves me hanging as to why it's being kept under lock and key.

And just for my own information, can anyone that posts please state whether or not they have access to the patch and what type of OS they run their server on ?

I feel that every single person that doesn't want the patch to go public either runs a 1.03 windows server OR has access to the patch. I also feel that people that don't run a server don't have any business posting on this thread.

Brutus · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morose @ Jan 22 2003, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>To anyone with an IOTA of experience in development, it should be readily apparent why they don't want beta "leaks". It's called version control and it's the nastiest part of getting patches out. They said no... now stop asking. If you just can't understand why they said no, then I'm sorry. Nothing I can say or do will change that.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Considering that you are just a member on these forums, like us, your opinion and the "If you just can't understand why they said no, then I'm sorry. Nothing I can say or do will change that." type of comments can stay away. Nobody is flaming the developers. The people that run servers are simply saying what is bothering us. We have a couple of solutions.

1.) Not run servers. We wouldn't be missed, new servers would pop up.

2.) Rant and rave about how how much everyone sucks, blah, blah, blah.

3.) Let it be known in a some what intelligent manner what is bothering us.

I would hope that doing #3 would not bother the developers. Yes, it is a free game, but don't expect people to support it for long if that is your attitude. (I don't think that is the developers mind set, just using it as an example.)

Bastard · January 2003

Them:

Awesome work on your plugins, by the way.

With that said, I'm going to take a middle line. Version control is important, as you've indicated. It's also useful to have a lot of "stable" servers out there with a consistent version of NS on it. It would be difficult to play if I jumped from server to server, encountering 1.04a, 1.04h, 1.04c, 1.03, etc. This way there's the offical beta, and the offical release.

On the other hand, we're seeing the developer's achillies heel right now: feature creep. I'm of the opinion that 1.04d should have been released publicly. (I think it was d... I don't have the changelog handy.) With all the acknowledged bugs and the improvements that Flayra wants to implement, I think he would be wise to consider smaller patches that address a few known bugs or features. (He's even said something along these lines... ) It's not as much fun for the developer, but it's better in the long run.

I hope that makes sense.

playerhater · January 2003

1) Im running servers on Linux
2) Im not a beta tester

I would like to see the patch released. I understand, that I will have to wait. However, At this point I would like to slap the next person who says that it will be out soon, that is until I hear it from Flayra himself. Comments like these are the reason why I have been so anxious to get it.

Hats off to you [Who]them for being an advocate to the common admin. And to Flayra and the dev team, keep up the good work! Everyone who plays on our servers enjoys the heck out of the game as it is now, patch or no patch. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

peace!

Bob_Da_Troll · January 2003

All I can say is that running a Linux server is a dose of agony at the moment. We've basically had a carrot dangled in front of us and every couple of days we hear "it's gonna be realeased soon, honest.".

I love this mod, and I love the game, but it is unbelievably horrid trying to run a Linux server right now with these maddening bugs. [Who]Them is right on this one. We just want some major fixes in our servers, and it is absolutely agonizing to have to keep waiting so far past the "couple of days" estimate we were originally given.

The ideal solution is to release a single version of 1.04 now, and then come out with an updated version at a later date. I mean, throw us a bone here.

Narfwak · January 2003

It makes sense to have it under wraps, and I agree with cracker, joe, and sirus that it would just create a mess to try to "orderly leak" the patches. It isn't worth the potential trouble.

Just remember, patience is a virtue.

SuicideDog · January 2003

There was a reason that the patches weren't released.. Some of them had some nasty bugs to the point where you wouldn't have wanted to run them on a PUB server. I know the linux guys are chomping at the bit for the optimization improvements. I'm a linux guy and I would like to tell you there is some improvement in the performance.. but don't get your hopes up for CS performance. It's really close to the win32 performance but in my testing, it maybe 2%-4% higher (Props to Flayra, because it's better for sure!). I can tell you (and I hope I'm not stepping on Flayra's toes here) that we are really close now. The last few betas have been MAINLY centered on fixing problems with the linux server. Most of the problems were with adminmod on linux & linux only bugs (there has been some win32 bugs also). It' looks like all the game play bugs are gone, and it seems like we have found the problem with adminmod on linux. This next version is going to be a really nice release. The game play is more even, the weird quirks are gone, all the current exploits are patched. There might be one more beta .. but probably not (we have our fingers crossed). Let me just reiterate we are super super close!

verbose · January 2003

I understand you're anxious for the improvements the patches bring. I am as well. But there's a simple procedure at work here.

If it's ready for public consumption, a release is made.

If it's not ready for public consumption, it's kept in closed beta.

A pseudo-closed beta might as well be a public release. A leak *will* happen. I started to type out the problems of implicit-trust models, but I got tired of it. If you can figure out what's bad about implicit trust, you probably already agree that closed-beta is a-okay.

Epoch · January 2003

My only comment is I with they would have spent less time changing the gameplay and just focused on what <b>had</b> to be done. From my stand point, that's what I saw. Maybe I am wrong; I don't know.

Morose · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Considering that you are just a member on these forums, like us, your opinion and the "If you just can't understand why they said no, then I'm sorry. Nothing I can say or do will change that." type of comments can stay away.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So, in clearing out my quote from that text I get:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Considering that you are just a member on these forums, like us, your opinion [...] can stay away.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I'm sorry... I thought my opinion was just as valid as yours. Apparently I was mistaken?

I wasn't flaming, and the sentence you quoted from me was quite civil. I clearly stated my opinion, and then that nothing <b>I</b> could say would change someone elses opinion. That's all. If that's deemed inflammatory, then so be it. I guess I'm a flamer. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

j0e · January 2003

i think having clan matches on the beta is valuable. golex, if you are interested, PM me and let's see if we can work something out where you guys can use one of my servers for clan practices/matches, maybe certain days of the week you could have admin or something like that

joe

[WHO]Them · January 2003

I would still like to know if narfwak or verbose run a 1.03 linux server..... I know that suicide dog has access to the patch, so I would really like to point out that in my opinion you are biased towards it not going public since it's not really a problem for you.

I don't think you can find a single admin that actually runs 1.03 linux that wouldnt want an upgrade. Not a single one. And even if there are bugs, there are bugs in 1.03, I would simply like to be able to make a decision for which set of bugs I'm more comfortable with.

I realise that there is definetly a hole in my whole suggestion in how it deals with implicit trust and the "mess" of versions that would be out there. But I think that hole is smaller than anyone thinks due to the fact that an admin would have to go out of his way to get the upgrade. And if an admin would go that far to upgrade I'm pretty sure he/she would go back to 1.03 if they couldn't make their server run smooth and easy.

Lornath · January 2003

At first, I didn't mind waiting for 1.04 to come out. My windows server worked fine, and it seemed like most of the changes were going to be a couple of resource/dmg adjustments and exploit fixes and I was looking forward to a quick patch in a couple of weeks.

After over a month (12/18 is the date 1.04 was annouced according to main website), we STILL don't have the bug/exploit fixes, and the changelist is just getting longer. In addition, we get to watch as a bunch of 'special' servers DO have those bug/exploit fixes and we have lamers coming in and messing up our games. It's much worse for the poor linux people.

No fair! I understand the reasons the dev team is doing things like this, but from the point of view of us lowly normal server ops, it sux. There's got to be a better way to get bufixes out quickly and avoid alienating a good number of your normal server ops...

All that besides, the game still rocks <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> We understand that it's taken an enourmous amount of YOUR peronsal time, and we really do appreciate it! thanks!!!

-Lorn

verbose · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Jan 23 2003, 06:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would still like to know if narfwak or verbose run a 1.03 linux server..... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
One must suffer to understand the plight? Hogwash. However, I do happen to run a 1.03 server on Linux. Well, FreeBSD, but close enough. I won't torture you all with another FreeBSD fan-boy rant <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Jan 23 2003, 06:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't think you can find a single admin that actually runs 1.03 linux that wouldnt want an upgrade. Not a single one.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Obviously. I'll upgrade when the patch is available. I'm willing to wait.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Jan 23 2003, 06:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would simply like to be able to make a decision for which set of bugs I'm more comfortable with.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Understandable. Unfortunately, your release philosophy does not agree with Flayra's. The best you can do is make your points, which you have done, and hope he sees it your way.