Alien vs Predator discussion

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  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 3,509
    i don't know if anyone else caught this, but the people over at Wolfire games wrote an interesting blog a while back regarding opengl vs directx here and then a followup here that were pretty interesting.
    I bring this up because it discusses how little differences there are between dx 9, 10 and 11. there's some links to some discussions on it showcasing some screenshots showing the difference in various games between their dx 9, dx10 and dx11 counterparts, and in most cases they were barely differentiable, if at all.
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  • MidoMido Join Date: 2004-04-05 Member: 27742Members Posts: 166
    QUOTE (6john @ Feb 13 2010, 03:11 PM) »
    i don't know if anyone else caught this, but the people over at Wolfire games wrote an interesting blog a while back regarding opengl vs directx here and then a followup here that were pretty interesting.
    I bring this up because it discusses how little differences there are between dx 9, 10 and 11. there's some links to some discussions on it showcasing some screenshots showing the difference in various games between their dx 9, dx10 and dx11 counterparts, and in most cases they were barely differentiable, if at all.


    That blog was posted on another site where it received plenty of challenge from professional developers. Some of the complaints about the article were perfectly valid and legitimate. You're missing the point if you're just comparing screenshots of DX 9, 10, and 11 builds of games (something I'm confident marketing coughed up and not the professionals that actually program direct x). The winning idea behind 10/11 comes with some "behind the scenes" features, graphics programming isn't all about being pretty, it's also about being as efficient as possible, and 10/11 offer some features that enable graphics programmers to do some tricky stuff that was not as possible on dx9 (mostly relating to memory management and how memory access to the video card works out, shader switching etc).

    OpenGL has problems of it's own, mostly with things like hardware support for ARB extensions, on OGL is spotty, and can be a support nightmare when you want to use anything beyond basic geometry and shaders. I had favorited some responses to that article but I have since lost my bookmarks, I'll dig it up if this discussion goes further. I have also posted about this in the "PLEASE MAKE NS FOR LINUX" thread.
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation Posts: 820 Advanced user
    edited February 2010
    QUOTE (spellman23 @ Feb 9 2010, 08:33 PM) »
    Also, their central authentication networked failed on release day. Also, fewer than 10% of the players even go online. And really, Demigod isn't made by a small company. Behold Strategy Game Genre, where they are pretty big.

    Also (Why PC?):
    http://pc.ign.com/articles/105/1059477p1.html

    demigod failed becuase they charged 40-50 bucks for a 20 dollar TOPS game. It was touted to be a complicated, almost cerebral, strategy game but it ended up being a dota clone with only a few maps and only a few heroes. Additionally, they sold it on impulse... nobody wants that, they want steam. It was a botched release, if they had it on sale for 15 or 20 dollars on steam it would have sold like hotcakes.
  • SykomykeSykomyke Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20316Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 20 Advanced user
    QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Feb 13 2010, 04:10 PM) »
    demigod failed becuase they charged 40-50 bucks for a 20 dollar TOPS game. It was touted to be a complicated, almost cerebral, strategy game but it ended up being a dota clone with only a few maps and only a few heroes. Additionally, they sold it on impulse... nobody wants that, they want steam. It was a botched release, if they had it on sale for 15 or 20 dollars on steam it would have sold like hotcakes.


    Quoted for truth my friend.

    I only bought demigod because graphically it looked good, and I thought it had a much more complex game mechanic to it (or so my friend who begged me to get it told me).

    And the plethora of "DOTA" clones (Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends) lately has left me leaving the entire MOBA genre behind. ("Multiplayer Online Battle Arena" for those unfamiliar with the acro.)

    And to be honest, I tried out League of Legends as well (for free). I was not impressed, it was fun. But they tried to put in new mapstyles, and unfortunately DOTA hit the nail on the head, there can really only be one map style. It's balanced. Anything else skews it in favor of different "heroes". I didn't even bother trying out Heroes of Newerth, S2 Games completely lost my faith.

    I paid full price (29.99 I think?) for Savage 2 before it was released. Played it for a month, was disgusted with the coding, the paper/rock/scissors battle system, turned away and never looked back).

    I will never ever buy another game from S2Games again. My sole reliance on a good FPS/RTS hybrid lies with NS2 now :) .
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  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation Posts: 3,225
    edited February 2010
    AvP is proof of why darkness as a game mechanic loses all its worth in multiplayer. Try turning up your TV/monitor brightness and see how much of an improvement it makes to your Marine game. Hint: you won't even need your flashlight.

    For UWE, this should be the fundamental lesson to be learnt from the new AvP.

    (font bigger because I don't really think UWE is taking this aspect seriously enough)
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation Posts: 3,225
    edited February 2010
    QUOTE (sherpa @ Feb 7 2010, 07:39 PM) »
    Yes it is. Rebellion saying "it's not a port- there's dedicated servers and dx11" doesn't make it "a game made for the PC, on the PC". The menus, the auto aim and jump aid were clearly designed for consoles then placed on the PC version. Even more obvious is d-pad shaped weapon selector.
    I've tested at Sega. In my first-hand experience they have a track record for neglecting their PC SKUs in terms of release date, polish time, support and controls. I've had to personally make sure that 'Backspace' isn't used for navigating back to previous menus, and Ctrl+Alt+Del isn't a viable keybind, to give just two examples of this indifference (this is also down to devs who have no understanding of PC gaming). Rebellion have a better track record on the PC, but it is evident that this SKU hasn't been designed primarily with the PC in mind. It's very evident that it has ported menu systems and control schemes that have had little alterations made for the PC user. There's no way you can really dispute that.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members Posts: 3,365
    QUOTE (Sykomyke @ Feb 13 2010, 11:33 PM) »
    And to be honest, I tried out League of Legends as well (for free). I was not impressed, it was fun. But they tried to put in new mapstyles, and unfortunately DOTA hit the nail on the head, there can really only be one map style. It's balanced. Anything else skews it in favor of different "heroes". I didn't even bother trying out Heroes of Newerth, S2 Games completely lost my faith.

    I paid full price (29.99 I think?) for Savage 2 before it was released. Played it for a month, was disgusted with the coding, the paper/rock/scissors battle system, turned away and never looked back).

    I will never ever buy another game from S2Games again. My sole reliance on a good FPS/RTS hybrid lies with NS2 now :) .


    Ironically S2Games is trying to rip off as cleanly as possible DotA. And yet many people think they failed. Meh...


    BACK ON TOPIC:
    I have too many games to finish, so I'll let AvP slide until my queue is free. It'll probably be cheaper then too.
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  • celewigncelewign Join Date: 2010-02-06 Member: 70458Members Posts: 111
    QUOTE (Mido @ Feb 13 2010, 03:33 PM) »
    That blog was posted on another site where it received plenty of challenge from professional developers. Some of the complaints about the article were perfectly valid and legitimate. You're missing the point if you're just comparing screenshots of DX 9, 10, and 11 builds of games (something I'm confident marketing coughed up and not the professionals that actually program direct x). The winning idea behind 10/11 comes with some "behind the scenes" features, graphics programming isn't all about being pretty, it's also about being as efficient as possible, and 10/11 offer some features that enable graphics programmers to do some tricky stuff that was not as possible on dx9 (mostly relating to memory management and how memory access to the video card works out, shader switching etc).

    OpenGL has problems of it's own, mostly with things like hardware support for ARB extensions, on OGL is spotty, and can be a support nightmare when you want to use anything beyond basic geometry and shaders. I had favorited some responses to that article but I have since lost my bookmarks, I'll dig it up if this discussion goes further. I have also posted about this in the "PLEASE MAKE NS FOR LINUX" thread.



    noob here.

    if optimization and efficency are the core differences between the dx api updates why is dx10/11 slightly slower/as slow as dx9? i'm curious, for instance: crysis runs slightly faster in dx9 than in 10, you'd expect it to be different.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation Posts: 2,817 Advanced user
    QUOTE (celewign @ Feb 16 2010, 07:09 PM) »
    noob here.

    if optimization and efficency are the core differences between the dx api updates why is dx10/11 slightly slower/as slow as dx9? i'm curious, for instance: crysis runs slightly faster in dx9 than in 10, you'd expect it to be different.


    I think what he was referring to was the fact that Dx10/11 allows resources to be used more efficiently which opens up the possibility for some really cool eye candy that isn't possible on Dx9. Because of the eye candy the game will still be demanding on your system, despite the efficiencies of Dx10/11, and if your system isn't powerful enough it may feel slower.
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  • celewigncelewign Join Date: 2010-02-06 Member: 70458Members Posts: 111
    QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 16 2010, 07:38 PM) »
    I think what he was referring to was the fact that Dx10/11 allows resources to be used more efficiently which opens up the possibility for some really cool eye candy that isn't possible on Dx9. Because of the eye candy the game will still be demanding on your system, despite the efficiencies of Dx10/11, and if your system isn't powerful enough it may feel slower.



    wait a sec, the original point that there WOULDN'T be as much eye candy because its more of an efficency upgrade... now its an efficency upgrade to make better/more pretty shiny?
  • sherpasherpa stopcommandermode Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58338Members Posts: 1,043
    QUOTE (Jiriki @ Feb 10 2010, 09:46 PM) »
    It means, playing as alien is boring. In NS1 there are lots of cool tricks, like bhopping, walljumping and leaping to keep the lifeform even half-interesting.


    In defense of AvP; the demo has been out for.... 2 weeks? How many cool tricks were people pulling off as skulk 2 weeks after NS was released?
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  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation Posts: 2,817 Advanced user
    QUOTE (celewign @ Feb 16 2010, 07:45 PM) »
    wait a sec, the original point that there WOULDN'T be as much eye candy because its more of an efficency upgrade... now its an efficency upgrade to make better/more pretty shiny?


    It seems like you should just google Direct X 10 and 11 to learn about the improvements. One small example I can think of is in Crysis where the DirectX 9 version has a normal texture of a rubble/rock pathways but in the DirectX 10 version these rubble/rock pathways are elevated where necessary to give it a more realistic and not so flat look. I don't know the name of that feature, because I don't pretend to be a developer, but if you want to get educated on this topic just do a little research.
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  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members Posts: 3,365
    You mean tessellation and normal/bump mapping?

    It's just opening up stuff, which means developers load the cards more, which can make things look prettier but slower.

    End of discussion.
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  • DarkFrostDarkFrost Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,417
    edited February 2010
    After playing the full game.

    Good:

    Pulse rifle - Almost no recoil.
    Weapon and Ambient Sounds - Spot on, best part of the game.

    Bad:

    Sprint - No game should ever have the move faster ability mean you can't shoot, its just not fun.
    FOV - game can't be played for long on widescreen monitor as either marine or predator, it just makes me feel sick :/. Alien FOV is better.
    Press E to insa kill - pointless and slows the pace of the game and is just plain annoying - after the initial "That pretty cool" due to what actually occurs.
    Pulse rifle - Although it doesn't look like the M41a described in "Aliens", I'd think it'd pack more of a punch than it does.
    Flame Thrower - Just stupidly useless
    Alien Sounds - Since when did a facehugger make a "vocal" noise when stalking? Part of the scare factor of them was the silence.
    There is actually no dedicated servers available yet, and the browser warns that is is "in beta"
    Matchmaking - is it developers or publishers that like this idea? Its just a terrible trend that we are going to have to ride out I guess.
    Removal of crouch - I don't understand why but it seems to again follow a new trend of removing movement abilities from games.
    Regenerating hit points
    Checkpoint saves
    Short single player
    Unneeded weapon icon's in the middle of the screen.
    Doesn't look all that impressive - another example of games not advancing due to the industies lust for cross platform games. If they keep developing games to work on consoles that had aged hardware on their release as well as the PC we will be playing games that look like this for the next 5 years. I personally don't mind consoles, but I also liked that if I had game A on the PC, the game with the same title as game A on say, the SNES, was a completely different game, same setting different gameplay, I don't agree with there not being any advantage/disadvantage of owning any system (beyond one or two games), since all of them get the same games.

    Judged by todays standards of games being produced this game is not bad, just not great. However the top of todays standards which are considered great and just not.
    The unfortunate thing about avp is the gameplay has changed alot since the first game. And thats the game that people enjoyed, its true of all sequels though. Almost like the Design team ask the question "What made our last game fun?" and once answered they decide "OK lets remove all that!". A problem that can be seen across alot of game series.
    Its almost at the point where the next AAA title to be release should be boycotted, regardless of reviews. A gamers strike of sorts. Need less sub standard games.
    Its all about profits these days.

    If you feed people garbage for long enough, the next garbage you feed them will seem like high quality garbage. But at the end of the day, its still garbage.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ghost in the shellghost in the shell Join Date: 2008-09-28 Member: 65094Members Posts: 137
    This game is like a really bad creme-brule
    It looks great and well polished (plus all the excitement)
    And then you break the sugary glaze
    and its rotten all the way through
    the more of it you eat the more rotten the eggs are

    so lets scrape the crusty sugar glaze and excitement from AvP and make a polished game that actually tastes good
  • 1mannARMEE1mannARMEE Join Date: 2008-09-23 Member: 65064Members Posts: 290
    Dark Frost you nailed it.

    I've played AVP I and AVP II they were always fun to me and I always enjoyed the Team Death Match online, the only problem you got was that you had to change your keybindings, but that could be done easily for every race in the menu (no text editor .cfg file editing or random tweaking like in the todays crappy console ports, Borderlands for example)

    And after you set your config it was just fun to play.

    I've heard all about the bad things in AvP III so I won't buy it, I'm still upset for being ripped by Gearbox and 2k with their ###### Borderlands :(

    I actually stick with Wolfire UWE and Blizzard for the PC Games (you keep a lot of money in your pocket)


    About the PC Games getting pirated, I guess (I can't back that up) most of them get pirated, because they suck or they didn't even care to provide protection or they added securerom just to piss the normal customer off and those companies who do that just deserve to get pirated, because their only purpose is to make as much money as possible and rip as much people as possible :S

    That's just the way things go these days, so I have to stick with the best strategy game of all time Z (if you don't know that game you should consider getting it, it has a playstyle that never got copied again and it's sequel is ofcourse a failure, because they asked the famous question "what made the previous game fun ?" and removed all that features :P ) and wait for NS2 :P

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  • FortuneFortune Join Date: 2009-04-27 Member: 67290Members, Constellation Posts: 223
    Wow, am I the only one who seriously enjoys this game?

    I actually found it a lot more enjoyable than I expected. I would say it's more enjoyable on a console and a 40+ inch tv though, I feel the gameplay is suited better for a control pad. Which is no bad thing if you have one, I'm a pc gamer at heart but some of the best games I've played have been on consoles too.

    I don't know, maybe I appreciate it more because I've been an alien fan since I was child or I'm not wearing nostalgia tinted glasses and hate consoles with a passion.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation Posts: 3,225
    QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 21 2010, 12:49 AM) »
    Wow, am I the only one who seriously enjoys this game?

    I actually found it a lot more enjoyable than I expected. I would say it's more enjoyable on a console and a 40+ inch tv though, I feel the gameplay is suited better for a control pad. Which is no bad thing if you have one, I'm a pc gamer at heart but some of the best games I've played have been on consoles too.

    I don't know, maybe I appreciate it more because I've been an alien fan since I was child or I'm not wearing nostalgia tinted glasses and hate consoles with a passion.
    I'm a little bit of the same. I'll pick it up eventually for the single player, but the multiplayer has gaping holes (turn up your brightness!) and didn't control well enough (alien movement). For PC you can get it for £15 atm, which is about the right price.
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members Posts: 1,281 Advanced user
    edited February 2010
    I play AvP (2010) and im so horny now, i can´t wait for the alpha, i wish they release it soon but they don´t show us the lerk or fade, so i guess the alpha will come summer :´(
    AvP has a good multiplayer but not that "good" its good but Rebel don´t had great gamemodes, they are to fast over, i wish they insert a mode like NS.
    AvP isnt a good or new game, its like the first Game but with great graphics and its working so good, i am very surprised how it looks like with my old machine.
    The maps are fun but very rare, only 2 maps for the modes i play and one of them not that fun.
    Serious if people compare it to NS2 with gameplay, they fail, its still good but it has not these deep gameplay like ns1 has or ns2 will have.
    My mind is, AvP is the Quake Version of NS2, the graphics are good but the gameplay is to simple to be a rival.
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  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Members Posts: 1,285 Advanced user
    The WORST feature in avp3 is the flashlight. That thing is so freekin dim that having if off is practically the same level of lighting.
    The enemy cannot eat an IP, if you disable its head!
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members Posts: 3,543 Fully active user
    i was silly enough to buy avp 2010 . what a disapointment.

    The match making service makes it almost impossible to play any form of multiplayer - its the worst one yet.

    Dedicated servers are a must.


    ALso the game it self is pretty plain, they just didnt take any of the cool ideas far enough to make the game unique - i'm already bored of it.

    its just a pitty it is tied to my steam account as I can't ebay the thing to some other sucker.
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  • Lord SchnitzelLord Schnitzel Join Date: 2008-11-04 Member: 65377Members Posts: 68
    Bought it, played it, hated it, resold it, bought a pizza with some of the money, liked that better.

    the developers somehow managed to completely ignore every single rule for usability. The sound is good (using the trademark sounds we know from the movies) and the graphics are ok, but the gameplay is boring (the AI is quite dumb), confusing (alien wallwalking, desorientation, etc.) and sometimes really made me angry (weapon "switching", ugly/useless cloaking, lag. matchmaking,...).

    Maybe playing ME2 just a week ago really made me nitpick but when compared AvP doesn't stand any chance. And while mentioning ME2: I don't have a very new computer; ME2 looked really great and ran completely smooth all the time. AvP looked WAY uglier and was laggy a lot of times.
    (I wonder how UWE's Spark engine will perform compared to the ME2 Engine)
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  • NovusAnimusNovusAnimus Join Date: 2008-06-20 Member: 64476Members Posts: 69
    edited March 2010
    QUOTE (schkorpio @ Feb 6 2010, 08:08 PM) »
    playing as an alien in avp3 really reminds me of how good it is in ns1 how the view doesnt change - ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY PROPERLY WHEN THE VIEW IS GOING UPSIDE DOWN EVERY 2 SECONDS!!!



    Impossible to play? Hardly. AvP 1 and 2 were the same (albeit the maps were larger).

    Edit: The auto-transition thing can be a bit hard to wrap your mind around but once you get good at it nooblets can't hit you. Skill curve = good thing.

    I don't know about the rest of you but I haven't played a game that looks this good in a long time, but I'm playing with all the settings maxed in DX11, with AA*2, 1920*1200 on my Radeon 5850. Runs smooth as butter, looks sweet.

    Online gameplay has gotten a lot better now that there's dedi servers, and will only get better as the beta server functionality is upgraded.

    Auto-aim in melee is kind of required as the gameplay is largely focused on the melee combo system. Hit and miss IMO.

    I give it 8/10.
  • CrispixCrispix Join Date: 2007-01-10 Member: 59543Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 426 Advanced user
    I didn't like the beta/multiplayer demo too much. I will probably pick it up once the price drops, and I get a new GPU (8800GTS 320mb)
    image
  • -Diesel--Diesel- Join Date: 2009-09-13 Member: 68769Members Posts: 278
    I might get it when it costs 5 bucks.
  • GDWhiteGDWhite Join Date: 2009-07-17 Member: 68170Members Posts: 99
    QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Mar 4 2010, 02:37 PM) »
    I might get it when it costs 5 bucks.

    This.

    Steam pwns.
    QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 10 2010, 09:47 PM) »
    And the nice thing is, since it's just a game, you aren't going to get a sore hand from playing NS2, unless you are gripping the mouse too tightly and playing for hours and hours on end. Which hopefully you will be when it comes out : )
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  • AhabPredatorAhabPredator Join Date: 2019-06-07 Member: 253261Members Posts: 2 Fully active user
    It is really time for a sequel for this.
    Yeah, The Predator sucked but there is still an audience for a good AvP game.
    There's also a solo Predator game in development but that is not enough.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    It is really time for a sequel for this.
    Yeah, The Predator sucked but there is still an audience for a good AvP game.
    There's also a solo Predator game in development but that is not enough.

    Dude, the kids that were born when this thread was opened are almost out of elementary school now...
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  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 685 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    It is really time for a sequel for this.
    Yeah, The Predator sucked but there is still an audience for a good AvP game.
    There's also a solo Predator game in development but that is not enough.

    Dude, the kids that were born when this thread was opened are almost out of elementary school now...

    Would've been easier to just say "9 years too late bud" :P
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Vetinari wrote: »
    It is really time for a sequel for this.
    Yeah, The Predator sucked but there is still an audience for a good AvP game.
    There's also a solo Predator game in development but that is not enough.

    Dude, the kids that were born when this thread was opened are almost out of elementary school now...

    Would've been easier to just say "9 years too late bud" :P

    Just wanted to provide some perspective
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