Elo change like Starcraft2 style

borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
edited November 2018 in Ideas and Suggestions
Currently we have +ELO if win and -ELO if loss.

It causes:
1. join strongest team
2. rejoin
3. "please concede, guys"
4. latejoin
5. elo-flush and play as greens
6. balance like 1red + 10 greens vs tier4
7. playing green with tier5/6/7 because steam account lost
8. nervous when losing
9. best player in loser team losing elo with all

yes, points is a progress engine. But terrible.

Look at starcraft2 with their leagues...
they have points what detects not win/loss.
Win/loss is helper to get highner league, get it faster.

1. if you lose the game - you get small count of points (+15)
2. if you win it - you get big count (+50)
3. even if you just play game few seconds, just get online today - you get some points up (+8)
4. League (tier) prevents me to connect server if tier difference more than 2. If you bronze - you cant play platinum league. If you diamond - you cant play silver. But can play gold or platinum.
5. if you play vs heavy opponent you get more points, if you play vs weak opponent - you get little bonus

if you haven't been playing for a long time, you dont get the points, and day to day you start losing points. But not just losing.
You get buffer of point you lost. Buffer what guarantees the next point wave will give you 2x points (3x in holidays) until buffer ends.

Look at the example.
I join the game, play few weeks and have 1500 points collected - every win adds me 50-70, every loss - adds me 10-20.

Then i remove game, and do not play few monts. Then installing and i have like 450 points and buffer of 1050. When i win game with buffer, i receive 70 x 2 points, and will have 590 points, and now my buffer is 980 (i lost 70 buffer points to bonus).
It can be related from buffer size too. Big buffer means bigger bonus.

It means - i get my old skill twice faster than newbie.

So, league is not just 2000 or 3000 points. League its like you have - percent of players who we can separate to play without others.
Just percents is not like 1, 5, 10, 20 - but enough to separate toplist to different server. I mean 1% redplayers cant play alone (if we show online stats) - once a week they playing on ensl servers, and they will lose points about bad online. It means should be an league, where:
tier7 can play
tier6 feels good
tier5 wants to be tier6

I think that it is the loss of points that makes games that could not be defeated so unpleasant.

Main thing here - public stats, profile and honor desk. You can always share link
Secondary thing - showing bonus points except of stats in round end. Looks same, but different. Showing bonuses after round end, credit, gold, points, awards - doesnt matter - its working, tested by thousands MMO. Stats its like "everyone see at me", but for this question should be "see my link, add me a friend", other is personal honor - and there would be better to see medals, honors, awards, points except of accuracy, count of build res towers, damage and so on.

I never see that after guys say "they build 42 Rts in this round" somebody say "wow, awesome". No. Guy who says "they build 42 rts", mean "i kill almost 20 rts, am great".
It should be like MMO honor desk with elo gained, awards reached (who can collects like - 20 medals "deal more 10000"), and then stats page.

Please, sorry for my english, please be free to ask a questions.
SantaClawsNordicskav2

Comments

  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 180 Advanced user
    edited November 2018
    I disagree with most of this however I do agree on a few points made. These are in no specific order.

    1.) The shuffle system is a Joke, we know this. But there really isnt anything we can do with this at the moment. You are correct in what happens - 1 lvl 7 with 8 greens vs a team mostly made of lvl 3's and 4's. A traditional way to fix this would be to only let people of similar skill to play eachother however ns2 can not do this. We have a very little population so low levels have to play with higher lvls and vice versa. This of course is not always a bad thing. With the mix of skill levels the nubs can get better by adapting if they are willing to learn.

    2.) Incentives to log in everyday. NS2 really isnt set up for this. However I do think we could use a progression system with unlocks and stuff. Something like this could make people want to log in more often just to get that item, or achievement or w/e. Like skins, new guns, badges, patches etc. I like it but not in the ranking format. Plus I hate daily games like that. Oh I ranked down because I have family and couldnt log in for 2 weeks? That sucks.

    On another note it would be cool to get a progression screen after every match that shows ELO rank gains or losses. CSGO does a good job with this. Currently we do not get a notification or anything if we go from lvl 4 to 5 or the other way around. It just happens.

    3.) I really love the idea of introducing more team stats at the end of rounds. Like RTS i personally destroyed, how much armor I welded for team mates, How many of each life forms I eliminated etc. Associated badges or unlockables based on challenges could certainly tie into this. "Walker I see you got the *welded an onos to death* gun decal or shoulder patch. NOICE!"

    4.) Public stats would also be a feature that could gear people into getting better. The way it is currently implemented "Observatory" is fairly tedious to use. If this was in game somehow, that would be much better.



    bork
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited November 2018
    Thanks for the opinion, read and fully agreed.

    How do you think about remove "loss ELO points" and replace it to "+10" or "+50" depends on your game team points (what seems nice).

    I mean - you can play losing team and get elo even if lose, because your position in team was 1st/2nd.
    Of course gained ELO should be calculated with Math, we got marine total and alien total, then divide, then compare.

    Second step - comparing average point value in both teams, because could be like marines 300, 200, 100 (3 players - average 200) and aliens with 2 greens like 250, 50, 50 (average 116) and lose as expected result.
    But 1st player in alien team gets even bigger than marine average, so you have to GET elo points except of lose it.

    If it will be replaced to online points with bonus buffer, you can get your elo points playing 2-3 games maybe (if it depends on buffer size), and after 3 games you'll get your previous stats as well. 4th game will add you points.
    4 games its just 2-3 hours.

    If you did not play 2 weeks - there is the possibility you fight not so well as before. And in 3 games you remember your skills.
    If you lost your account or clear the stats - there should be the way for game to detect your skill preventing red player to play as green for big time.

    Elo buffer solving half of the problem.

    Cleared stats transfer to stats buffer and you'll get your points fast and everybody again see your tier, you cant joke shuffle playing 31/2 with green badge.

    About lost account - you getting additional bonus about difference your team points from average team points and difference from second team points. It means - if you play 31/2 with green badge (new account) - after 2-3 games you'll get tier4 even if you was tier1 before:
    1: bonus elo from diff with your team
    2: bonus elo from diff with second team
    3: count diffs in a row - if you get a lot of points several games in a row - you get additional bonus
    4: bonus from victory
    5: bonus from reached medals like "structure damage", "welded", "healed", "count RTs" and so on

    it means defaults +50 elo could become +300 if you do the same several games in a row. with limitation of average elo gain on this tier. tier5 could get +300 every game and it means - we should reduce bonuses or make it related from number digits - tier2 average +50, tier7 average +1000 from one game (relative points to get tier7 expected like 100000 elo in time tier2 requires maybe 500)
    Post edited by bork on
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,686 Advanced user
    skav2 wrote: »
    I disagree with most of this however I do agree on a few points made. These are in no specific order.

    1.) The shuffle system is a Joke, we know this. But there really isnt anything we can do with this at the moment. You are correct in what happens - 1 lvl 7 with 8 greens vs a team mostly made of lvl 3's and 4's. A traditional way to fix this would be to only let people of similar skill to play eachother however ns2 can not do this. We have a very little population so low levels have to play with higher lvls and vice versa. This of course is not always a bad thing. With the mix of skill levels the nubs can get better by adapting if they are willing to learn.

    2.) Incentives to log in everyday. NS2 really isnt set up for this. However I do think we could use a progression system with unlocks and stuff. Something like this could make people want to log in more often just to get that item, or achievement or w/e. Like skins, new guns, badges, patches etc. I like it but not in the ranking format. Plus I hate daily games like that. Oh I ranked down because I have family and couldnt log in for 2 weeks? That sucks.

    On another note it would be cool to get a progression screen after every match that shows ELO rank gains or losses. CSGO does a good job with this. Currently we do not get a notification or anything if we go from lvl 4 to 5 or the other way around. It just happens.

    3.) I really love the idea of introducing more team stats at the end of rounds. Like RTS i personally destroyed, how much armor I welded for team mates, How many of each life forms I eliminated etc. Associated badges or unlockables based on challenges could certainly tie into this. "Walker I see you got the *welded an onos to death* gun decal or shoulder patch. NOICE!"

    4.) Public stats would also be a feature that could gear people into getting better. The way it is currently implemented "Observatory" is fairly tedious to use. If this was in game somehow, that would be much better.

    1) That is an exaggeration of the effect, but it isn't wrong. You could use a different shine plugin to shuffle people with the captains method of putting the highest person on one team, and the second highest on the other team, and so on until teams are full. The results are similar to shuffle as it is without having the problem you mention. It has other problems though. Tradeoffs are tradeoffs.

    2 and 3) It looks like UWE scrapped their planned player progression, steam stats, and player stats systems since they are all achieved now on trello. This stuff was planned at one time, but it seems UWE has set it aside to focus on more important things.
    https://trello.com/c/ov771Jrf/16-player-level-progression
    https://trello.com/c/Y03Driqa/22-progression-rewards
    https://trello.com/c/N0djMvpp/20-player-stats-system
    https://trello.com/c/AbN8RzW4/24-steam-stats


    I also want to add that I think hive skill should be a hidden value. You can read more about that opinion here.
    https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2331724/#Comment_2331724
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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