Hide hive skill now

jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 139 Advanced user
Please hide the hive skill. Seems to be one of the major motivation factors for ppl to play the game, yet it it is still not a individual skill progress system, it is only there for teambalancing. I mean, the web site is down and many servers suffer from a few really good players vs maybe 30 % rookies, the rest medium. Loads of frustration comes from this.
antoucoolitic

Comments

  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 669 Advanced user
    Hive was taken down and replaced with hive 2.0

    Hive 2.0 currently doesn't have an official website, but there are a few sites that give some information based on hive 2.0 statistics etc.

    But I do agree that ELO shouldn't be viewable to the playerbase if it isn't a measure of individual skill level, because of it being abusable it will end up causing unbalanced teams.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,718 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    Hive 2 is hive 1. Same system. There was no reset. Hive 2 just has improvements on top of what hive 1 had. Both systems are hive.

    This thread should be directed at server operators who show hive skill in their servers by choice. NS2+ allows this. It is not in vanilla NS2.

    I do agree it should be hidden, but I also think server operators have the right to show it if they want to.

    I would recommend that you ask your favorite server operator to hide hive skill values on their server, but there will be many more players asking them to turn it back on. Instead, you should try supporting a server that does not show hive skill. That is really the only option I see.

    UWE does have real player progression systems coming...
    https://trello.com/c/ov771Jrf/16-player-level-progression
    https://trello.com/c/Y03Driqa/22-progression-rewards

    ... and some additional player stats systems coming...
    https://trello.com/c/N0djMvpp/20-player-stats-system
    https://trello.com/c/AbN8RzW4/24-steam-stats

    ... as seen on the NS2 roadmap.
    https://trello.com/b/njrpasjl/ns2-roadmap

    If you are interested in what UWE is working on right now, not what they will be working on, or want more details than the roadmap might give, check out their development tracker trello.
    https://trello.com/b/uFv64kH6/ns2-development-team

    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    .trixX.meatmachine
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 612 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Hive 2 is hive 1. Same system. There was no reset. Hive 2 just has improvements hive 1 had. Both systems are hive.

    Really? I had an amazingly low hive score for awhile. It didn't last, sadly.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,825 admin
    There is no way we can prevent mods from accessing/displaying hive skill.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,718 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Hive 2 is hive 1. Same system. There was no reset. Hive 2 just has improvements hive 1 had. Both systems are hive.

    Really? I had an amazingly low hive score for awhile. It didn't last, sadly.

    One of the improvements was adagrad which is a sort of adaptive learning rate. Hive originally worked in small increments, which made it take forever to be relevant. With this adaptive learning rate, new skill values can move around a lot. When hive 2 began recording everyone was considered new. Everybodys skill value moved a fair bit
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    jrgn wrote: »
    Please hide the hive skill. Seems to be one of the major motivation factors for ppl to play the game, yet it it is still not a individual skill progress system, it is only there for teambalancing. I mean, the web site is down and many servers suffer from a few really good players vs maybe 30 % rookies, the rest medium. Loads of frustration comes from this.

    Personally, I dont care if its hidden or shown, but I'm not clear on your justification here. You say hide it cuz it's not representative of individual skill, which IMO is right and wrong - it's a representation of your likelihood to win, which reflects your skill, but does not define it. Anyways, you acknowledge it's there for team balancing... but whether its shown or not does not fix what you're saying is causing you frustration. There will still be just as many good players vs inexperienced players. I don't see how hiding hive skill would fix that.

    Frankly, just sounds like you've tried to come up w/ a more "reasonable" answer for not liking seeing your or other's hiveskills, or how it motivates some ppl to play better. Hiding hiveskill does not change the player makeup from server to server.
    _INTER_cooliticumdum9
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    If you hide it, replace it with something else - like individual progression - and make the Hive teambalancing value inaccessible through mods. IF you have full control over the source, nothing except time and budget constrains you. Otherwise it will end up being abused with less control over offenders. Which is imo more unfair than displaying it.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    jrgn wrote: »
    ...Seems to be one of the major motivation factors for ppl to play the game ... Loads of frustration comes from this...

    Sounds like you've got a personal problem there mate.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    Handschuhjrgn
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    It kind of is an individual progression system though, and a pretty good one. The score reflects your likelihood of winning - I can't come up with a better goal for the game. If everyone tries to be better at winning - then everyone has better games imo.

    You might say that it causes some players to abuse certain exploits in order to gain a greater rank - those are outliers I think though.
    NordicjrgnmoultanoBlrg
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,718 Advanced user
    edited January 2017
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    It kind of is an individual progression system though, and a pretty good one. The score reflects your likelihood of winning - I can't come up with a better goal for the game. If everyone tries to be better at winning - then everyone has better games imo.
    Players use hive skill values can work as a pseudo progression system but it was never designed as such. Your logic oversimplifies and ignores the problems a visible hive skill produces.

    To name a few:
    • Showing hive skill highlights it's use as an individual skill metric, and distracts from its use as a team balancing system. Hive skill values are a representation of a players likelihood of winning, which reflects skill, but does not define it. A visible hive skill often causes players to put more value into skill values than they should.
    • Showing hive skill actually creates distrust in the system. Faults in the system are always more noticeable and memorable. Hive skill values may reflect skill value, but they lack context, allowing players to perceive faults where there might be none. Players will see a player with excellent mechanical skill getting many kills, but still has a low hive skill. It is not easy to understand that although this player has high mechanical skill, he loses often. This is assuming the hive skill is even significant, and it may not be. Hive skill values are now significant after 90 games on average.
    • Hive skill values used as a skill progression system creates a metagame where players only play to increase the number. For these players it highlights the loss more, making it feel worse. Since hive skill values is built on team performance, it becomes easier to blame the team for the loss. A visible hive skill can easily increase toxic behavior. Here is an example of this metagame, and another.

    I linked UWE's plans for a real progression system above, but I forgot one. UWE plans to add a competitive ranking.
    UWE wrote:
    Hive skill should not be shown to players, as it ideally would find a range that represents a players current skill and then stay within it. It's not meant to be gamed, and if people try to manipulate their hive skill it makes it harder to use the info for team balancing.

    People like having a number that they can track as it goes up and down. We should add a visible competitive ranking which you would be able to raise slowly. It would be able to be used as a status symbol rather than a balancing factor.


    Hive skill values can be used as a competitive ranking or as a progression system. Just because it can doesn't mean it is good at it. Hive's purpose and real strength is in its ability to balance teams. UWE has plans to introduce a real competitive ranking and a real progression system. Hive is separate from those plans.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    jrgn
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    Even though there may be downsides, I don't think anyone would argue that shuffle gets it right at a decent rate..
    As someone who runs a server that displays the hive skill average per team (not individual), I notice shuffles very often being insufficient at even getting to semi equal levels.
    When that happens, its nice to shuffle again - or however many times required to get a better balance.

    That all being said, even with matched hive levels between teams you can still easily get an imbalanced round that you don't realize is the case until 5+ minutes in.
    I just like having it to pre empt any claims of stomps beforehand, and then everyone can be disappointed by how inaccurate its assessment was later on.
    It's the lesser of two evils, imo.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    coolitic.trixX.
  • IronmanIronman Join Date: 2012-03-22 Member: 149184Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 99 Advanced user
    dont touch hive score : P
    jrgn
  • IronmanIronman Join Date: 2012-03-22 Member: 149184Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 99 Advanced user
    shuffle is probably better for global k/d as source or combined with w/l as source.
    Handschuhjrgn
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 139 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    The question was not about turning it off, it was about hiding it. Shuffle is the best teambalance method we have now but the visibility (more announced on some servers through shine plugin settings) make people chase its value and therefore making it less useful for teambalancing and more desireable as a receipt of "skill" when it is not. If you want something visible use the value of "level" in the main menu which i believe is derived from a combination of hive score and playing time or something.
    Today we have loads of players who joins the team with the guy with the highest hive score just because they have a higher probability of boosting their own if their team win. There are plenty of other behaviours connected with hive score wrongly mistaken for a skill number/ELO/Progress bar that is not good for getting a nice game of ns2 going (whatever that is ;), but its visibility just makes people chase a higher number (some more than others) instead of becoming a better teamplayer/communicator/RT destroyer/. Hive Score has become self-feeding.

    I am pretty sure loads of people who are dependent in their self esteem by looking at the hive score would hate to see it being hidden, but i am also pretty sure otherwise we end up with a game of hive score masturbat*rs, if we are not there already. :'(

    Please just give these thoughts a serious think-through before posting...or attacking me personally or my hive score ;)
    Or show it like the return when you use sh_teamstats in a shine server.

    And finally:Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
    Post edited by jrgn on
    cooliticThe_Welsh_WizardNotPaLaGi
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    I like showing it because it allows people to balance manually if needed. If a "force even teams" or "shuffle" vote fails, conscientious players can still even things out by switching teams. Otherwise you'd be forced to rely on those votes succeeding.
    .trixX.cooliticjrgnBestProfileNameBlrg
  • ZdrytchXZdrytchX Australia Join Date: 2016-02-06 Member: 212662Members Posts: 101 Advanced user
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,718 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    SupaFred wrote: »
    I think it would be better to display a team balance indicator that, for example, changes colour from green to red depending on the current balance. Players need to know when a shuffle is needed but I'd like to reduce the focus on the number.

    What about a server configerable setting in shine that if the average skill difference is greater than X and or the standard deviation of skill is greater than Y, a shuffle vote is automatically started? People could still vote not to shuffle.

    If you shuffle, people don't switch teams or leave the server, and it is still unbalanced there is not much else that can be done.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    TinCan
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 139 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    what if you nullify punishment on hive score for disconnects
    ( as most high hive score players do, since the punishment on doing that is less than staying and losing) before endgame? Like they have in ENSL? It just doesn't count?
    Post edited by jrgn on
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    Sorry, but I dont think anything you said there is accurate.

    If you disconnect and lose, pretty sure you still get what you would if you had stayed. What ppl do to defeat the system is different. Also... Comp games and gathers affect your hive skill just like any other game. Not sure what you're referring to.

    And why would you want to nullify skill changes to ppl who leave? if anything, they deserve it the most if the leave is intentional/rage motivated.
    Blrg
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,718 Advanced user
    jrgn wrote: »
    what if you nullify punishment on hive score for disconnects
    ( as most high hive score players do, since the punishment on doing that is less than staying and losing) before endgame? Like they have in ENSL? It just doesn't count?

    The time at the beginning of the round is weighted to be worth more, so what you propose is pretty much pointless for your purpose.

    Doing this would defeat the purpose of hive. You are not awarded points. Your skill is adjusted. It is not like some high score on a pinball machine.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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