Update 323 - Shadow Onos Roars into Play - Natural Selection 2

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  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 472 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    What about people who want to queue for that player slot specifically so they don't get stuck in spectate?
    A simple checkbox "I'm okay to join as a spectator" would do I guess?
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Except the problem is that spectate is supposed to be for spectating... You are wanting to use it to wait for a player slot...
    I think it's perfectly fine. People who want to spectate may do so and not use the queue. Others may be like "spare players" ready to go asap. People sometimes go to spec for a short break to have a dinner or something but they don't want to leave at all. So they are both spectating and waiting for a slot (after they've eaten).
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    One thing that would be nice is if we could get something showing our place in the queue...
    Server join queues is something else and I don't think they can be implemented without changing the game protocol or even the engine. I'd say even without knowing the game internals that this task is a magnitude harder to implement than the in-game queues. Even if this is possible to implement with mods alone, it must be loaded before everything else (to work before connecting to servers), so each client must have it installed manually + it must be on the server. It's been requested many times and still not implemented, either it's hard to do or UWE has different priorities.

    The in-game spec-to-team queue is rather simpler and doesn't require any manual work from the players. But it sure requires knowing the game framework, something I personally lack (I know Lua though but last time I used it years ago).
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    rkfg wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    What about people who want to queue for that player slot specifically so they don't get stuck in spectate?
    A simple checkbox "I'm okay to join as a spectator" would do I guess?

    Aye that would work. As long as you can't wind up stuck in spec after X minutes of waiting in the player queue.
    rkfg wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Except the problem is that spectate is supposed to be for spectating... You are wanting to use it to wait for a player slot...
    I think it's perfectly fine. People who want to spectate may do so and not use the queue. Others may be like "spare players" ready to go asap. People sometimes go to spec for a short break to have a dinner or something but they don't want to leave at all. So they are both spectating and waiting for a slot (after they've eaten).

    And once they get back from dinner or whatever, they can wait for a slot to open like they do now.. Going in spec to eat dinner or whatever shouldn't give that player rights over a player in the server browser waiting in a queue for a player slot. (which is basically what adding a queue to spec would be doing)

    It would be totally unfair for someone queue'd in the browser to have to wait X minutes, only to be forced into spec when they finally got into the server, all because someone else who was sitting queue'd up in spec got their slot.
    .trixX.
  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 472 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    It would be totally unfair for someone queue'd in the browser to have to wait X minutes, only to be forced into spec when they finally got into the server, all because someone else who was sitting queue'd up in spec got their slot.
    That's the major discrepancy here. I think it's much more fair to give the slot to someone who's already on the server. First come, first served, no? I understand that from the joiner point of view it's the opposite because we always prioritize ourselves but look at it from the spectator's perspective. It already requires bashing keys to get into the game and I see this as an anti-pattern. Maybe if we had a server queue implemented, there could be a compromise: pick players in turns from the join queue and the spectator's one. But we don't have it and it would require a lot of effort to make with mods so a local spectator queue is a much more realistic alternative anyway (although it doesn't exist as well).

    Ok, let's remove the F4 bashing if you're a spectator as it's a bad and counterintuitive thing. So I sit as a spectator and want to get into the game. What are my options?
    — wait until someone leaves and take their place; if some people already try to join this will fail most of the time (remember: no Russian bashing!) and you'll be stuck in spectators for eternity.
    — leave the server and join just as the others; wait for undefined period of time, could be one minute or half an hour, no one knows, others can always connect before you, it's random, pure luck.

    With a local spectator queue:
    — you queue up to the team you want or any team. An advanced queue may even ask if you want to join the opposite team because there's a free slot and that team queue is empty. As soon as someone leaves you get there and someone else can connect to spectators. The advantages are:
    1. you can finally see some action instead of "Waiting" window
    2. you can queue up to a team, you know it's not random anymore and is fair

    Now, the joiners are more likely to join at least as a spectator and then use the queue system to start playing. The spectators have priority because they were here earlier than the new players. That's fair as I see it. Sure, I'd always prefer a server join queue as it's much more fair but don't just remove the spectators out of the equation. They are people too!
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
    MoFo1
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    You aren't understanding..

    If we do it your way people would wind up being forced to queue to get into the server, then queue again to get out of spec...

    The would be one of the worst things that could happen to NS2.. essentially doubling the wait to get into a player slot...

    .trixX.
  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 472 Advanced user
    I described this all assuming there's no queue to get into the server. I have no idea if it's easier to make than the local one but I assume it is much harder. The connecting order is still undetermined, the only difference is that instead of queuing people in the lobby we do it in the game itself. And at least they can spectate instead of staring at the useless "progress bar". My main objective is to remove the keymashing and unfair random that decide who will play next. Not to reduce the waiting time for some people and make it absurdly long for the others.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    edited August 17
    rkfg wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    It would be totally unfair for someone queue'd in the browser to have to wait X minutes, only to be forced into spec when they finally got into the server, all because someone else who was sitting queue'd up in spec got their slot.
    That's the major discrepancy here I think it's much more fair to give the slot to someone who's already on the server. First come, first served, no?

    No... because the player queued in the browser specifically does not want to spec. It is unfair to force them into spec for any reason.

    You're essentially talking about adding in a way for spectators to cut in line ahead of people waiting to join properly...

    Also I'd rather wait in the browser so I can watch Netflix or YouTube videos while I wait... If I wait in the server I'd have to mute the game because of the sounds & people talking...

    Which also means I wouldn't be able to tell when I got the player slot because I'd be forced to have it muted. (Currently I know a slot opened up when I hear the game sounds or talking)

  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 472 Advanced user
    The last issue is easily fixable with a special sound (voice or noise) when you get a slot. Yes, I want the spectators to be first because they're already on the server and I think this is fair. Anyway, it's up to debate I guess. And I think you also agree that the current system is not good anyway.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    edited August 17
    rkfg wrote: »
    The last issue is easily fixable with a special sound (voice or noise) when you get a slot. Yes, I want the spectators to be first because they're already on the server and I think this is fair. Anyway, it's up to debate I guess. And I think you also agree that the current system is not good anyway.

    How would you hear the special sound with the game muted to not hear the game sounds/people talking? It can't be the sfx slider, can't be the voip slider, would be pointless to add an extra slider just for a single added sound...

    You are also completely ignoring how horrible it would be to have to wait to get onto a server, then continue waiting even longer to get a player slot.

    rkfg wrote: »
    Not to reduce the waiting time for some people and make it absurdly long for the others.

    Except you can limit your waiting by leaving the server and queuing for a player slot when you notice one is about to open up (such as when the game is about to end)

    You are artificially making your own wait longer by sitting in spec and mashing F4!

    What you are proposing would greatly increase the wait times for everyone who joins properly, while slightly reducing it for people who wait in spec...
    I very very rarely ever have to wait more than a few minutes to get into a player slot... (but then again I'm not sitting in spec)



    Post edited by MoFo1 on
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,209 Advanced user
    If everyone in a spec slot would instead seed a new server, the new server would fill up quickly and the world would be a better place.
    MoFo1FrozenThe_Welsh_WizardrkfgNintendowsBeigeAlertNordicUncleCrunchSupaFred
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    If everyone could just agree when a game is lost, we will have increased player satisfaction and player retention and the world would be a better place. :unamused:
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    If everyone in a spec slot would instead seed a new server, the new server would fill up quickly and the world would be a better place.

    ^^ this!! So much this!!

    Is quite common to see 2+ specs on each server with 5-10+ in the server browser.

    I often think to myself "Damn I wish there was some way to chat with everyone in the server browser similar to how diablo 2 did it"
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 163 Advanced user
    I still say making it easier to find the concede button would help. plus having a queue for open best pinged servers while in spectator would be cool. It would also be cool if that could also be implemented to give rank consideration so its not 1 lvl 7 with 16 lvl 1 greens lol

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 752 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    If everyone in a spec slot would instead seed a new server, the new server would fill up quickly and the world would be a better place.

    No it wouldn't. I don't think you assume every server is the same? A lot of people only want to play on certain servers, so they rather wait on a slot on that one than to join another server.
    rkfgZavaroSupaFred
  • ZavaroZavaro Tucson, Arizona Join Date: 2005-02-14 Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 750 admin
    moultano wrote: »
    If everyone in a spec slot would instead seed a new server, the new server would fill up quickly and the world would be a better place.

    No it wouldn't. I don't think you assume every server is the same? A lot of people only want to play on certain servers, so they rather wait on a slot on that one than to join another server.

    So much this. I only play on one server, the only one that I trust such that the experience will be without egregious performance dips. There's a quality to that, I'd rather not play on suboptimal servers or ones that require large downloads (up until recently, I had caps).

    There's no standard of quality that servers have to live up to. There's also a sense of community amongst peeps on certain servers. People don't want to play anywhere else.
    CDT Map Testing Lead and NA Playtesting Whip
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    Have a bug in NS2? Report it in the thread! If you can, post how to reproduce it, or private message me on the forum!
    rkfgNintendowsVetinariSupaFred
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    If everyone in a spec slot would instead seed a new server, the new server would fill up quickly and the world would be a better place.

    May i add: The world would be a better place if the skill system didn't allow predators/farmers to grind on rookies in the first place (and many other bad behaviors). Thus the shuffle won't be anything close to balanced as the numbers are far from reality.

    Up to a point some players including myself think it's better to know the 'peep' other there (even if they change their nicknames often), more than the skill system can do.

    That, you deserve.
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
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  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    Numbers are also far from reality simply due to one score for both teams...(yes I'm going to beat this dead horse again)

    My tier 4 skill means when I get forced to marine it's usually as one of the "better" players to "balance" teams...

    When this happens marines are at a disadvantage since I can only perform about as well as a tier 2 player on marine...

    Conversely when I do get alien (and their are no tier 6/7 players on) I am often able to carry hard, getting 15-20 kills per life and owning the top of the scoreboard...

    I should be tier 2 when on marine, tier 5 when on alien..
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 427 Advanced user
    i've read this thread a few times over and i still don't understand what's going on, could someone please speak to me like i am 5?
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,442 Advanced user
    Archie wrote: »
    i've read this thread a few times over and i still don't understand what's going on, could someone please speak to me like i am 5?

    https://xkcd.com/1364/

    Like many update threads, this one is about a lot of things. Best to just ignore it at this point

    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    rkfg
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Archie wrote: »
    i've read this thread a few times over and i still don't understand what's going on, could someone please speak to me like i am 5?

    https://xkcd.com/1364/

    Like many update threads, this one is about a lot of things. Best to just ignore it at this point
    I don't do Facebook. These forums are my Facebook equivalent, because they fill the same niche in my day. This is where I come when I want to read crazy commentary on things I care about. Either grab some popcorn and participate, or go find another show. These entertainment value has gone down over the years, and it is mostly revolving topics, but I still come with popcorn in hand.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • OurukaiOurukai Join Date: 2018-09-09 Member: 243436Members Posts: 2 Freshly registered user
    Hello, does anyone know how skill tier is calculated ? I was Frontiersman (grey color) and now, I am Recruit (blue color) so I lost a rank, why is that so ? Thanks for the answer.
  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 472 Advanced user
    When your team loses your elo (skill level) decreases, when the team wins it increases. The rank (badge) represents a range of the skills (from elo X to elo Y, can't tell you the actual numbers though). So if you're on the edge between two ranks you'll fluctuate between them for some time until your elo goes up enough to stay in that rank. Or if your actual skill is lower and it was just a pure luck streak, you'll eventually lose some of it and will be in the lower rank again. You can see your current elo at the observatory or inside the game after round end. Before the next game starts you see the advanced scoreboard (or press X to open it), just click the players there and you'll see their elo in the popup. This might only work if NS2+ runs on the server but it's almost always the case.
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  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 752 Advanced user
    Ourukai wrote: »
    Hello, does anyone know how skill tier is calculated ? I was Frontiersman (grey color) and now, I am Recruit (blue color) so I lost a rank, why is that so ? Thanks for the answer.

    The ranks are not determined by an absolute ELO value, but by your relative ELO compared to all other players. That means each rank has a start and an end point at a certain percentage of all players. So, even if you didn't play, if your ELO value belongs to the top 5% of all values, and a few weeks later your ELO value only belongs to the top 6% because other people gained ELO, then you lose a rank.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,546 mod
    edited September 9
    It may have been coincidence, but I recently went up a skill tier after walking around my map, looking at changes.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
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