Update 323 - Shadow Onos Roars into Play - Natural Selection 2

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  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,567 mod
    I'm not exactly sure why, but I've seen a lot of 40+ min games in this patch. I actually just played in a 100 min veil game on TA.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    Nerfed gorge tunnels (the gorge not being silent anymore)?
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    MoFo1
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 727 Advanced user
    The super long games is a real problem... especially when it gets over 90 min and the server starts trying to eat itself...

    Last night I was in a 100+ minute long game that turned into constant red plugging and warping players... was completely unplayable (server eventually crashed with over 25,000 errors)

    Which leads to a question I was going to make a thread for... why isn't there an automatic draw & reset once a server reaches an unplayable level of errors? (like 15,000-20,000+)
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    The super long games is a real problem... especially when it gets over 90 min and the server starts trying to eat itself...

    mqdefault.jpg

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  • AdambeanAdambean Cardiff, South Wales Join Date: 2005-06-03 Member: 53038Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 122 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    240 minutes then you're at NS 1.04 ;)
    Thanks, Adam Reece.
    Kouji_San
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    Adambean wrote: »
    240 minutes then you're at NS 1.04 ;)

    Personally I prefer 1.03, when aliens could also use the phasegate (oops :D)

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    Spotting cloaked aliens is usually easier with the highest gamma setting and your flashlight on. Having a monitor with high brightness will also help.
    A game mechanic should never rely on settings and especially not the hardware (well excluding FPS).

    Thank you!! At least one other person gets it...

    For the record I do have the gamma maxed out and even with the flashlight on I still can't spot 9 out of 10 cloaked aliens.

    Maybe you play with high detail. Or i got a bad new about your cataract...

    More seriously. I can see them with full detail. It looks like something (a volume) under a cloth (the texture).

    I won't pretend I'm able to spot and shoot anything right away like any gringo over here. I'm not playing enough to keep the reflexes and habits super fast. And i don't use those "tricks". But i know even if i die from where it comes from.

    The thing is that using low detail is quite a different story, especially for Cyst (a good example). It's easier to spot anything, including where is the Cyst node. Me, I just turn bloom and occlusion (i think) off which are FPS eaters for not much in the end. But it's not like "flat infestation" setting.

    That is why i have a little critic on the game about that. Lowering detail makes you better at it. While even the low budget laptop you can buy today can run NS2 quite smoothly with a lot of detail. If not full detail.

    That is also why mapping is a pain. You have to think about those guys who can see in the dark and spot anything, or those who see pink skulks (RGB 255,0,255) ...

    Making a unique setting on detail (or a threshold of settings) that guarantee every player have the same "look and feel" will help for sure.


    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • StupidStupid Join Date: 2018-06-03 Member: 241104Members Posts: 27 Advanced user
    .

    Making a unique setting on detail (or a threshold of settings) that guarantee every player have the same "look and feel" will help for sure.


    From my impression, Game companies that sell skins think differently than those whom aim for a unified experience.

    For someone wishing to experience just one of each kind of lifeform could have a simple setting: much like how I remembered old counterstrike's client setting that only used the first skin on both sides reguardless of their selection.

    I can say I have always prefered less market-type-sales littering in my first player shooter (any game really). However, I guess times change. Wow did, for example, but that's about the time I stopped paying for it... I found it distastefull that people were purchasing items in a game that other people spent many many hours to get an equivalent. The magic of it all gets lost at the first $, and it can become more about showboaters instead.

    I'll just cut out here, cause then I'll have to continue on about recent changes that aren't really worth rambling on for, anymore...
    However, thankyou for listening even though I'm not a "shadow" supporter.

  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 258 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    I spectated for awhile this evening. The rounds were interesting and I'm still of the opinion that the tunnel buildspeed nerf and the removal of silence were positive for the game. But now that aliens have to do a bit more work to earn and solidify their expansion, I'd like to see marine pres rates nerfed a little.

    Assuming a fairly even early and midgame, marines are usually sitting on more than enough to repeatedly buy tech as midgame transitions to lategame. And that's fine in cases where a marine has legitimately been able to save up, so I'm not suggesting a huge nerf. But an adjustment would be prudent. It'd make losing engagements more impactful and I think that would have a positive effect on round duration.

    Edit: If I'm being totally honest I'd be happy if you guys just reverted the pres gain values (both teams) to what they were before the big change.
    Post edited by NousWanderer on
    .trixX.MoFo1
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    Every game I've had on this patch so far has been fantastic. Great work.

    My only wish right now is for something to make getting a game set up a little less laborious. Every round requires an inevitable shuffle vote, and sometimes a reshuffle, and sometimes another reshuffle, then waiting for comms, then finally the game starts.It seems like there's an opportunity for a much more streamlined and intuitive way to get this started. I don't know exactly what this looks like, but this seems like the biggest QoL pain point right now. Here's an idea that might not work well, but something along the lines I'd like to see:

    When a player enters the "random" gate, don't immediately put them on a team. Instead, keep them in a pool of players you can use to balance the resulting teams. When 3/4ths of the remaining players have joined, or when both teams have commanders and the game is going to start, allocate these players to minimize the skill difference.

    I think something like this has the potential to make all the shuffle votes unnecessary, because you'd have balanced teams more often without voting, and players who have a strong team preference would be kept on the team they chose so would be less likely to switch after a shuffle and invalidate it.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    When a player enters the "random" gate

    I don't think many people join "random". People often have a favorite team or want to swap after a round.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
    pSyk0mAn
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 773 Advanced user
    While even the low budget laptop you can buy today can run NS2 quite smoothly with a lot of detail. If not full detail.

    Lol what.
    Handschuh
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 727 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    Every game I've had on this patch so far has been fantastic. Great work.

    My only wish right now is for something to make getting a game set up a little less laborious. Every round requires an inevitable shuffle vote, and sometimes a reshuffle, and sometimes another reshuffle, then waiting for comms, then finally the game starts.

    Well one problem is people who exploit the loopholes in the system.. such as certain individuals whose name starts with X who always stacks one team by continually disconnecting and reconnecting until shuffle lets them on the stacked team...

    Something desperately needs to be done to stop this type of exploiting! Disconnecting within 10 min of shuffle should "lock" the other team for you for the rest of that round should you choose to reconnect.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    While even the low budget laptop you can buy today can run NS2 quite smoothly with a lot of detail. If not full detail.

    Lol what.

    Probably finds sub-30FPS acceptable or something :tongue:

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    While even the low budget laptop you can buy today can run NS2 quite smoothly with a lot of detail. If not full detail.

    Lol what.
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    While even the low budget laptop you can buy today can run NS2 quite smoothly with a lot of detail. If not full detail.

    Lol what.

    Probably finds sub-30FPS acceptable or something :tongue:

    I'm in a country in which you can buy a powerful computer for a cheap price as long as you know what and where to buy. You can build a "rig" with little knowledge and a screw driver. I mean you still have to get the basics; right... I know, I know, I know...

    My desktop PC is 3 years old now, let's say it's an "era" in the computer world, an i never got under [email protected] at full detail (bloom and occlusion are off as i said). A today laptop is quite a match for that PC.

    And for the fun of it i tested NS2 on my SurfaceBook (v1).

    As you know about SurfaceBook (the first one):
    • it was NOT designed for gaming at all. It has a Nvidia 940m chip, but it's a special version only for the SB it seems. Bottom line is,: "gaming... forget about it"
    • It's not really the most powerful compared to other laptops (like Asus gaming rig and the like). I mean it's not only a laptop. You can separate the keyboard from the screen and use it as a tablet.
    • It has a huge native resolution (3000x2000).
    • It's a native W10 computer so DX9 isn't the best solution for it. It works but don't expect specific optimizations from Microsoft.
    • It's 2 years old at least. Quite 66% of an era...

    I tested a map (mine) and took some screenshots in a room in which i know there are a good load of things that makes the famous "draw calls" greater than 1000 and less than 1500. Which is kind of a reference number in the NS2 mapping area. Every official maps are more or less in this threshold everywhere you go. All the screenshots have animated objects, shadows, transparency, reflections.

    Here are the results. I'm quite surprised actually.
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    jc5d4n3s06wp.jpg
    3cxoaibccomx.jpg
    rlzvc2uxaqz5.jpg
    bvjc4oblr6d5.jpg
    brygah4urcf8.jpg

    The only real FPS killer is the resolution for what i could see. Of course Bloom and occlusion are FPS killers in any situation / config / case... Other settings have little impact on the FPS rate. But it's not really a problem. Those laptops don't have big screens. More like 14 inches to 17~18 inches... quite not the 27inches 144mhz monitor is it ? So playing at a high resolution is kind of dumb as the human eye won't see the difference. big resolutions need big screens.

    So "yes" a laptop you buy today can run NS2 quite smoothly with a rather high detail setting. And what about gaming laptops ? i let you check. Maybe you should buy a new computer.

    Post edited by UncleCrunch on
    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    Doesn't seem to be on a live server though, cause on a live server it would probably eat that laptop for breakfast and ask for seconds. The real FPS killer in NS2 has always been the runtime entities running amoc along with players messing with the thing :D

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 685 Advanced user
    Huge post

    A few things i'd like to say here.

    First up, the "draw calls" target of 1000 - 1500 is outdated AF and has been for a long time... just check official maps like Biodome, Caged, Derelict etc. There are certain areas where you see calls go over 3k.

    Second, 30 - 60 fps while alone in an empty room isn't the same as getting 30 - 60 fps while actively playing.

    Third, you should never test FPS in a stale environment, sure, I can reach 200+ in most areas of most maps... on my own, on a listen server, without anything happening at all.... but you try achieving that in combat, mid/late game, on a 12 vs 12 server... NOT going to happen.

    Fourth, if you do decide to conduct FPS tests in a stale environment, don't do it on a custom map, even if it is your own custom map.

    Fifth, if you have a custom map in the works, how far along is it? when can we expect to be testing it over on the SCC server? and why is there no forum thread about it! :P
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    LMG SOUNDS AWESOME!
    Finally, thank you!
    Could you guys revamp the sound of HMG and Miniguns too? ^^
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    did you listen to the new MG sound?
    Every single sound got somewhat a revamp...
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Handschuh wrote: »
    did you listen to the new MG sound?
    Every single sound got somewhat a revamp...

    This isn't the first time it has been revamped. How many revamps do we need? I have always thought it sounded fine, so I don't have much of an opinion.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 440 Advanced user
    could the next patch have improved leap distance? thanks!
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  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    This isn't the first time it has been revamped. How many revamps do we need? I have always thought it sounded fine, so I don't have much of an opinion.

    Yeah, i agree, its a bit subjective... we are talking about made-up weapons that are fired in god-knows what atmosphere :D
    My main gripe with weapon sounds is that they are somehow... boxy? Like listening to an old sokol radio. There's no umpfh to them, or rather, was. I have't noticed the HMG change yet, so few people by it.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    Here's the thing though,

    Aliens had the M41A with it's iconic sound, NS had it's HMG with it's iconic sound and reload animation. NS2, well it opted for more conventional sounds that are also lacking in "punchiness", although the HMG does have more punch than the rest in NS2.

    But hey, it's mostly the atrocious sound positioning and sound culling system that FUBAR :D

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

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    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    .trixX.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    Honestly, I don't mind the sounds too much. I find the visual mismatch between the function and look of the MG much more irksome.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    IronHorse
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    This isn't the first time it has been revamped. How many revamps do we need? I have always thought it sounded fine, so I don't have much of an opinion.

    Yeah, i agree, its a bit subjective... we are talking about made-up weapons that are fired in god-knows what atmosphere :D
    My main gripe with weapon sounds is that they are somehow... boxy? Like listening to an old sokol radio. There's no umpfh to them, or rather, was. I have't noticed the HMG change yet, so few people by it.

    That is exactly it though. People ask for more umpfh. UWE revamps the sound, and then people ask for more umpfh.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    Nordic wrote: »
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    This isn't the first time it has been revamped. How many revamps do we need? I have always thought it sounded fine, so I don't have much of an opinion.

    Yeah, i agree, its a bit subjective... we are talking about made-up weapons that are fired in god-knows what atmosphere :D
    My main gripe with weapon sounds is that they are somehow... boxy? Like listening to an old sokol radio. There's no umpfh to them, or rather, was. I have't noticed the HMG change yet, so few people by it.

    That is exactly it though. People ask for more umpfh. UWE revamps the sound, and then people ask for more umpfh.

    Well if people keep asking they're obviously not adding enough "umph" from the point of reference called NS :trollface:

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" 

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue | 102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting

    .trixX.Nordic
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 440 Advanced user
    any leap improvements in the pipeline?
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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Doesn't seem to be on a live server though, cause on a live server it would probably eat that laptop for breakfast and ask for seconds. The real FPS killer in NS2 has always been the runtime entities running amoc along with players messing with the thing :D
    Well if a SurfaceBook can do that I'm pretty sure a "gamer laptop" can do waaaaay better. And yes you can easily get above 2k draw calls on the so called cluster fuck server like Woozaas. But daaaaaam admit it, running NS2 on a SurfaceBook doesn't ring a bell ??? It does for me, and i tend to know that SurfaceBook limits.

    Yes i had to go down on resolution. Still; it holds.
    z8eqcboq7zm1.jpg
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Huge post

    A few things i'd like to say here.

    First up, the "draw calls" target of 1000 - 1500 is outdated AF and has been for a long time... just check official maps like Biodome, Caged, Derelict etc. There are certain areas where you see calls go over 3k.

    Second, 30 - 60 fps while alone in an empty room isn't the same as getting 30 - 60 fps while actively playing.

    Third, you should never test FPS in a stale environment, sure, I can reach 200+ in most areas of most maps... on my own, on a listen server, without anything happening at all.... but you try achieving that in combat, mid/late game, on a 12 vs 12 server... NOT going to happen.

    Fourth, if you do decide to conduct FPS tests in a stale environment, don't do it on a custom map, even if it is your own custom map.

    Fifth, if you have a custom map in the works, how far along is it? when can we expect to be testing it over on the SCC server? and why is there no forum thread about it! :P
    See above. And no it's not that static. The room have shadows, animated stuff and transparencies. NS2 has its way to eat FPS with shadows and lights. It's another topic anyways. I didn't choose it randomly.

    I just checked again, veil goes from 500 to 1.8k draw calls. And on rare occasion goes just above 2k. Same goes for Kodiak or Descent 600 to 1.9k draw calls. If you see numbers above that; it usually is that someone forgot the occlusion geometry (or it doesn't work properly).

    Then I agree it goes higher with more players and of course more infestation. But daaam a SurfaceBook ? I'm not supposed to make NS2 run on a SurfaceBook unless to make a proof of concept during a student project. What about those laptops with fancy designs, super duper logos and I7 CPUs running at 2+Ghz frequency in rest mode ??? Daaaaaam (for fun)

    for Fifth... well... here unless there's a problem on the forum and you cannot see it. You can test all you want, it passed my QA process and it's finished. I'm not the kind of guy that tell people before it's out... Well... it's already out.

    ChubbChubbs ???

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  • NovoReiNovoRei US Join Date: 2014-11-18 Member: 199718Members Posts: 83 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    I would like to squeak the wheel for the lerks.

    Lerk nerfs have been adding up since b279 and slowly worsening this lifeform fun factor and viability. Focus, Regen (not carapace), Adrenaline were a must for lerk mid and late game.

    The new meta mandates either saving for fade after first lerk death or skipping it and going directly to fade depending on map/team conditions. Flexibility is lower than before. More time skulking around.

    The alien lifeforms rather than being "playstyles" are becoming more and more tools of the moment. The meta is save the pres for when needed.

  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 440 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    lerks are overpowered as fuck in the hands of a good player, sorry i just had to say that, protip you're supposed to die as lerk.

    edit:i think what you're getting at is lerk gameplay has become stale this could be alleviated by perhaps giving lerk some of drifter abilities at a lower % of effectiveness, i mean theres really no reason a drifter needs all of them right? :wink:
    Post edited by Archie on
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