Update 323 - Shadow Onos Roars into Play - Natural Selection 2

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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,456 Advanced user
    Archie wrote: »
    protip you're supposed to die as lerk.

    I must be a better lerk player than I realized
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    NordicSquishpokePOOPFACE
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 940 Advanced user
    I must doing something rly wrong then shredding with vampirism and umbra through jetpack shotguns as lerk lategame... need to rethink my life
    return to zero
    Mouse.trixX.NordicHandschuh
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    A good lerk is easily more devastating to the marine team than your average fade, they have the tools for any situation and the movement to match. The only thing that prevents lerks from being completely overpowered against players of similar skill levels is their lower hp pool. The only problem is the majority of ns2 rounds is full of skill disparity which results in good lerks coming out early enough and effectively crushing the marine economy.
    WobArchieNominousThe_Welsh_Wizardjrgn
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,690 Advanced user
    edited June 2018
    The two easiest ways I lose my lerks are mines and a very skilled marine on a team of not so skilled marines. I am terrible at spotting mines even with a high contrast alien vision.

    When I can straight line fly at most groups of marines on the other team and come out fine every time, I will die when I attempt to straight line into the one skilled marine. If I am expecting good marines I will play more defensive and not die. I have a bad habit of expecting the lowest common denominator when average skill level of the opposing team is low so that I don't expect it when I run into that one marine who just instagibs me.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    SquishpokePOOPFACE
  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 474 Advanced user
    Look at the skilled lerks as a marine and learn from them. It's hard to learn to aim, true, but aliens usually dominate with tactics, patience and unpredictable movements. As a lerk, you have to move as randomly as you can while still flying towards the target making it run out of bullets and become quite vulnerable. Straightlining is a sure way to die quickly, even when playing against a weaker team with bad aimers — you may encounter a group of 3-4 marines which will focus you.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 374 Advanced user
    I always stated that a softcap for vampirism is in order.

    If the goal is that lowskilled people gain something by vampirism then the HP buff needs to be high - otherwise they'd never use it.
    But if you gain to much hits in a certain timewindow... like 3 seconds then the additional hits should gain a lower HP value (half) so you won't shred through everything like lawn mower
    pSyk0mAn
  • Saffron_bakerSaffron_baker Sweden Join Date: 2015-06-09 Member: 205352Members Posts: 492 Advanced user
    now we only need a Forge welder
    SquishpokePOOPFACEArchieHandschuh
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 351 Advanced user
    I would like to see vampirism heal armour only half as much. To me, the real problem is that if you have full health and are missing armour, you're gaining effectively double the HP from a vampirism bite.
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    1. Regeneration possible working immediately after been damage (you can see green lines on skulk while you attack it). If i took Regeneration, my skulk becomes twice effective by some reason. When i got Carapace - 2 bullets more. When i got regeneration - by some reason (maybe animation feel frustration for marines, or healing becomes immediately, or other - but really marine need at least 10 ammo more to get skulks having regen). The carapace is required only for Onos now but am not sure even for that.

    2. Please, decrease shotgun spread at least of 10%. Skulks is dying with shotgun. Gorges - no. Lerk - no. Fade - yes, because weak unit (mean - unit requires extra high skill for just play), onos - too slow damage rate, buildings - vice versa. Just like melee weapon this shotgun with this spread for 1 meter radius in 2 meters of range.

    3. Do something with that lerk. There is no weapon vs nice lerks in first 5 minutes of the game! LMG has no moment damage, shotgun has no range, grenade - nice but randomly and not enough if lerk in end of coridor, hmg - requires 60 resources and 3 minutes. It just flying everywhere and kill everybody going alone just in front. Somebody luckers could shot 10 pistol bullets in the lerk face doing 200 but even this players cant kill them in a one bullet row, lerk must make an mistake twice or will alive.

    4. Stab is still inusuable. Couldnt be preloaded holding mouse1, couldnt be activated in the fly, couldn't be stopped when activated. Nobody making this upgrade.

    5. Umbra gives extra protection for hive - one clip of LMG with umbra took 2-3% of hive, without umbra - 10-12%. But if you drop umbra to lerk itself, he takes extra low additional protection. Possible umbra adding protection in percent of maximum armor or something? For small lifeforms it could be absolute value, for big lifeforms and buildings - percent. It feels strange - when you protect hive - it is extra armored, when you drop it at himself - no changes, just yellow light.

    6. Rifle second attack is unusuable. You can just replace right mouse button of all marines to autoshooting using axe/welder. More usuable will be. With all weapons - got pistol? Click mouse 2 to temporarily get axe, attack 1 time and get pistol again. Will be easier to weld Exos when attack using just mouse2. Will be easy when attack resource towers using axe. Will be easy when attack when ammo is out.

    7. NS tram requires tunnel or vent from top-right location to elevator. When marine controls Hub and Reactor - they got 6 resource towers and nobody can change anything. Only sneaky tunnel with base rush giving the victory to aliens.

    8. Possible stomp needs to be not working for jetpacks even if it is staying and the ground. In closest coridor Onos is just holding attackers using his super-ability that deals damage to everyone everywhere at the distance.

    9. Every 2 games aliens got the win using Gorge rush. Today see what three gorges with 2 skulks just control marines army with shotguns for 5 minutes and no gorge dies. When they got bilebomb - that gorges just begins to own all they're see. When they become marine start few minutes later - it kills power node in 10 secs. Please, show me at least one weapon in marine team what could destroy hive in 10 seconds in 3 persons. 3 GL cant destroy lifeforms and will got only 60% even all grenades get in target. 3 gorges destroying exos, buildings, rushing, healing - its just one more imba alowes medium player gaming like master. Fade can't. Lerk / Gorge - easy.

    10. When do you improve electricifity from NS1? Sometimes doing mines upgrade is not best way but all the team must rush direction. Need to protect phasegate, and the commander must built robots factory for get turret factory and 3 turrets - 80 res. Gorge just dropping offense for 3 resources if the marines often go some way.

    11. No space repair method available for marines like Alien crag building or hive. Aliens have too many space oriented weapons (deals damage in radius), but every building must be repaired individually. Noway to autorepair buildings or place some repair module who repairs every building in radius or other that stuff.

    12. HMG has so low damage (15 per second like). With same rate of fire with LMG, the HMG has 50% damage bonus requires 3 minutes, two upgrades and 20 resources to get it. But you can use it only for get ONOS in its back. Tried to kill skulks with Crag hive with this gun, skulk easy going through HMG fire and bite at least 1 times. The shotgun is more productive vs SKULKs. Lerk - too low damage per moment for kill good lerk. Fade - vice versa, weak unit as i sad above, can kill in a second if no adrenaline, but cant damage if a master controlled. Nice weapon vs gorges. But requires tech like battlecruiser, to kill gorges.

    13. GrenadeLauncher is almost unusuable weapon. When you took it, you automatically disables yourself from the team. When sneaky attack the 4 grenades deals only 20% hive damage, but you completely cant attack any target except building. LMG got 12% of hive from 1 clip. I dont know why the people still got GL. Possible about explosion animation. One feature to use GL - is dropping grenades in corridor fully loaded of team bullets to increase space-oriented damage to random lifeforms. Not so required weapon, just fun one.

    14. Gorge tunnel building with one gorge is faster than one marine is destroying it. When you placing an phase gate - you need two marines, 15 resources and a couple of luck, 10-15 seconds of time. When you need tunnel - you got gorge for 8 res, 3 res for tunnel and 5 seconds of time. When the gorge drops tunnel and heal it - tunnels health is increasing faster than marine with LMG can destroy them. Same situation with resource tower. If gorge is healing - the building is indestructable 1v1. When marines is attacking resource tower, one gorge under RT and you cant kill gorge or RT, but gorge can kill you. If it is right, then good.

    Bugs:
    1. Welder animation when running is so fast
    2. Railgun exo couldn't be preloaded in two guns in same time. Minigun is OK. First one is shooting deals high damage, second one - deals less damage.
    Post edited by bork on
    MoFo1HandschuhrkfgNintendowsskav2
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 374 Advanced user
    bork wrote: »
    ...

    I always wonder if some ppl play different games...

    my comments:

    1) Carapace is more than one bullet... mainly armor... but maybe we play differently and you should understand that weapons light Pistol and Mines do light damage. That means vs armor you do only half damage!
    2) Slightly more compact shotgun would make interesting engagements vs fades to make half hits... it would be annoying for lerks as the hitbox is currently huge.
    3) Lerks are quite delayed now, if someone wants you can have even shotguns with armor 1 vs lerks up... that would decrease the ramage of the lerks quite a bit because they cannot go into close combat
    as "tight" as the Shotguns are and as "precise" as the shotgun is
    4) known issue
    5) Umbra is currently incredibly strong as is...
    vs Hive you need to consider that umbra makes about 30%(?) lower dmg.
    That means you do less "HP" Damage against the hive so the self-heal/gorgeheal/cragheal might heal the armor once the HP are full again.

    100 Armor are percentwise much more then 100HP, that is why I think the numbers look like that (since the HP are quickly full again)

    6) Riflebutt is a really fun and strong weapon that instantly does 20 Damage + Weaponupgrades.
    As it stands I probably have several hundreds of riflebutt kills or extra damage..

    I get a skulk low -> instantriflebutt if he is close by OR I get a skulk low, riflebutt, switch pistol to kill the next skulk... just because you don't see any application, I think it is a realy nice addition. Since you cannot "instantly" switch to the axe to finish a low alien off due to the high weapon switching time.

    7) ns2_tram_next_stop as the vent you need... as I know right now last stats still shown to high alien-winrates on that map... but generally, if you want to resbite, work as a team

    8) Dodge stomp by jumping in the air... with higher ping differences you might need to take that into account.

    9) Tunnel building times are already as long as they can be..
    If the commander has no awareness to scan if they're on a winning streak (or scan their hive to check for open tunnels)
    and
    If the players have no awareness to cover their lanes.... or near base positions, they shouldn't win, should they?

    10) ??? what ??? this is an async game... and you cannot tell that electrified stuff was "fun"... it was in ns1 a huge investment that also hurt yourself if you lost it
    Reminder that this isn't a PvE game but a PvP game... so players are the strongest defense

    11) MACs and NanoShield are the best you'll get I suppose

    12) Currently MG is like a LMG with much more ammo... you do not have to stop shooting for quite some time...

    13) maybe we play different games, but GL feels OP and unpredictable
    rkfgNordic
  • StupidStupid Join Date: 2018-06-03 Member: 241104Members Posts: 20 Advanced user
    Some people can't handle difference of opinions and have to attack the frustration of others... Hang in there, everyone is stupid.
    The_Welsh_WizardborkNordic
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    Handschuh wrote: »
    bork wrote: »
    ...

    I always wonder if some ppl play different games...

    my comments:

    1) Carapace is more than one bullet... mainly armor... but maybe we play differently and you should understand that weapons light Pistol and Mines do light damage. That means vs armor you do only half damage!
    2) Slightly more compact shotgun would make interesting engagements vs fades to make half hits... it would be annoying for lerks as the hitbox is currently huge.
    3) Lerks are quite delayed now, if someone wants you can have even shotguns with armor 1 vs lerks up... that would decrease the ramage of the lerks quite a bit because they cannot go into close combat
    as "tight" as the Shotguns are and as "precise" as the shotgun is
    4) known issue
    5) Umbra is currently incredibly strong as is...
    vs Hive you need to consider that umbra makes about 30%(?) lower dmg.
    That means you do less "HP" Damage against the hive so the self-heal/gorgeheal/cragheal might heal the armor once the HP are full again.

    100 Armor are percentwise much more then 100HP, that is why I think the numbers look like that (since the HP are quickly full again)

    6) Riflebutt is a really fun and strong weapon that instantly does 20 Damage + Weaponupgrades.
    As it stands I probably have several hundreds of riflebutt kills or extra damage..

    I get a skulk low -> instantriflebutt if he is close by OR I get a skulk low, riflebutt, switch pistol to kill the next skulk... just because you don't see any application, I think it is a realy nice addition. Since you cannot "instantly" switch to the axe to finish a low alien off due to the high weapon switching time.

    7) ns2_tram_next_stop as the vent you need... as I know right now last stats still shown to high alien-winrates on that map... but generally, if you want to resbite, work as a team

    8) Dodge stomp by jumping in the air... with higher ping differences you might need to take that into account.

    9) Tunnel building times are already as long as they can be..
    If the commander has no awareness to scan if they're on a winning streak (or scan their hive to check for open tunnels)
    and
    If the players have no awareness to cover their lanes.... or near base positions, they shouldn't win, should they?

    10) ??? what ??? this is an async game... and you cannot tell that electrified stuff was "fun"... it was in ns1 a huge investment that also hurt yourself if you lost it
    Reminder that this isn't a PvE game but a PvP game... so players are the strongest defense

    11) MACs and NanoShield are the best you'll get I suppose

    12) Currently MG is like a LMG with much more ammo... you do not have to stop shooting for quite some time...

    13) maybe we play different games, but GL feels OP and unpredictable

    I dont know how to play on American servers, i played everyday by 8 hrs in euro servers like SEK2000
    Nowhere i see there somebody like Handschuh (but i remember one just from NS1 ensl movies).
    I had 80/100 ping.

    But, never mind.

    Possible we make propositions using two different game parties like 6v6 and 11v11. Am usually playing 11v11. And 70% my games i see 2 good lerks just flying everywhere and joking marines because they can't do anything with it. They shooting in this "huge profile" and spent all the clip in the air doing 50-60 dmg, then will be killed by 2 skulks. Possible is just teamplay problem. The world of tanks has "T" keyboard key whats shows RED TARGET on unit. I tried to say - when you attacking lerk - you will be killed by skulk, when attacking skulks - lerk will fly just in your face and deal 60+5+5+5+5 + 14 + 14 + 14 (3 spikes). I dont know how to survive vs that. Possible shotgun must save, but he deal 100 dmg, second shot - 30 dmg (3 meters distance, evasion too), but lerk needs 250 at least. Two shotguns with a couple of lucky requires 50 resources and teamplay vs one "delayed" unit by 24? Really? When i got 50 res playing aliens i prefer to got two/three lerks in a row, but no weak fade. Because 3 times playing lerk i deal 1000+ dmg and control the whole map, one fade i deal at least 200-300, maybe 500. I tell just about the lerk gameplay is VERY simple in comparation with fade. So simple as the onos gameplay, but onos requires 80 res!

    1. i know theory about armor gives you 50% hp protection. I told about this situation - you see the marine with shotgun, you have an umbra. You drop umbra at the ground below you, got umbra bonus and try to attack. Shotgun just do one shot if your face and you're down. Through umbra, through armor, just get down. But when you drop umbra to high armor/hp structures lifeforms - it is very impressive effect, increasing survive time of it twice. If umbra is just weapon to protect high HP lifeforms and thats the idea - all is good. But small hp lifeforms got almost no effect from this.

    2. Lerk hitbox currently huge but how to explain that the lerk flying alongside me, i shot it, and got 13 damage from 17 pellets =/ Lerk is in 2-3 meters from me. Of course when i shot it directly in his face - it will down. But 3 meters distance covers it by 90%? Seems like non-accuracy shotgun as well. Of course it is game feature but 12 gauge usually does damage at 20-30 meters in the polygon. Pistol does damage at 5-6 meters. In NS2 pistol does damage on 50 meters, shotgun - on 2 meters. Really?

    3. When you play 6v6 game lerk has delayed. Tomorrow i see what 3 gorges protect repair on ns_tram, 3 skulks protects hub and elevator, and then 3 players got lerks (11v11 game). This band is fully controls the whole map, we trying to get at least one direction in 4 marines with shotguns but this party kills us all just on marine start. We try to get it with grenades, flamers, GLs, shotguns - no effect. It just kidding us from long range with these spikes, and then spores at 4:00 (they are playing fast-hive at 1st minute)

    ...

    6. I will try riflebutt but i really dont see any kill with riflebutt after 450 hrs of everyday playing. Nobody kills with it. Will try it, but if you use mouse2 to attack with axe welder - it will gain EXTRA help for teamplay (handy welder at holding mouse2) and 30 dmg with your axe. This riflebut is like gorge healing - you may got a lot of fun getting it some skulk, but the button is blocked for all the game.

    7. thank you, will see next_stop

    8. I tell just about weapon deals 40 damage to all marines in the coridor and buildings (like bilebomb but hp/ap) is so strong ability! Extra strong. When getting stomp onos got a weapon allows it do not use primary attack as all. It just attacking with this only! That secondary attack is dangerest than primary.

    9. Possible. I just try kill tunnel what are building by one gorge. i cant kill gorge with one clip (he doesnt attack me, he is healing himself and tunnel). I cant stop the tunnel - it just had no effect. If you got two gorges and two skulks in some map point you need at least 6 marines to own that. Or advanced armory. 3 marines spent their clips to gorges/tunnels with no effect. Of course 3 skulks can't kill phasegate in a second too. But phasegate requires 15 res, phase tech, builded armory and observatory and at least two marines, and 20 seconds to build. Tunnel dropping is so simply in comparation with that. If you has two gorges in tunnel location, you cant destroy that before you got flamethrowers. Of course if skulks are controlled by weak players and 2 gorges playing just in two, gorges will die. But normal players working in four-five. Maybe i record the movie next time to you see how difficult to destroy in first two minutes two gorge controlled location, and you could give me some recommendations. I saw fast hive strategy when 2-3 gorges build hive in 1st minute, and then that 3 gorges just got 3rd hive location where is building clogs, tunnel, crag, shift. That location is not destructable without AA and at least 2nd dmg. But this location have full estimated cost of 8+8+10(crag)+10(shift)+3+3+3 = 46 resources. Like 2 shotguns. But required at least 200 resources, AA and 3 minutes to destroy or 2 minutes of gametime and 40 res for one arc and luck.

    10. you're right. Players are strongest defense. I just saw that the commander order to attack hive, guys will go all there, and lost all the phasegates in 30 seconds. It means 10 marines fight on hive vs 4 aliens (so, they are equal in forces with that count of radius healing!!!), and 4 skulks and 2 lerks kill all phase gates in the whole map. Hive is down, its true, but all the map lost. Sometimes this 4 aliens got all 10 marines and nobody dies, hive still working... how it possible? Dont know, you see it from chair and do not understand how your ARMY (!!) dies in 10 secs vs 4 aliens on hive.

    11. will try, ok. But the problem about two gorges killing main base while hive is been attacked in 10 secs is very often thing i see. Its like "god help" when you losing your hive. He just kill the power node and commander is completely disabled. Cant leave to kill (one clip is not enough), cant help, cant beacon, i still do not understand, could outside observatory beacon marines to main base when power node is disabled? All the comanders just losing their main bases in 10 seconds, every two games! I dont know how to protect. Nobody attack arms lab or main base phasegate. They're just focus on powernode and got win in 10seconds! How to do? Always keep two marines on main?

    12. MG with more ammo must not require advanced armory and upgrade, and 20 res. The shotgun make marines strongest 2.5 times. The MG just adding ability to finish onos 1 time per 3 tries. Very expensive weapon without really requirement. Without flamethrower or welder you CANT win. HMG is more expensive but just special weapon... I think you can give it without AA, just after upgrade if that is normal. You select - get a huge clip LMG or the shotgun. In NS1 i remember the HMG was fade/onos-ownage weapon. Today its just pew-pew-see-at-me weapon.

    13. GL random effect and tunnel clearing effect is very strong, its true. But you completely disable marine from attack group giving them GL. If you attack in 10 marines, two GL is very strong. When you attack in three-four guys, one GL is just you attack in two-three. Special anti-building weapon, yes. Flamethrower is faster. The one weapon deals damage by radius - its true. I see that the Jetpack rush with GLs is dying in 1 minute because nobody can attack leaping skulks. In NS1 you could get they down with your pistol in 4 shots. Now - you need 6-7, almost impossible to get 70% accuracy, on jetpack. 4 JP + 4 GL rush costs 80 + 60 + AA + Proto + 7 minutes, but has 65% chance to no effect. 2 gorges with bile costs 30 res and 2 minutes and 50% to immediately win the game just right now.
  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 474 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    bork, I guess your main problem is lack of teamplay and overall low player skill. This is a team game, it doesn't encourage players to rambo their way in. Usually, in one on one encounters aliens win with a few exceptions:
    - skulk vs LMG — LMG usually wins if the marine is any good;
    - lerk vs shotgun — shotgun wins or the lerk flies away with low hp;
    - fade vs shotgun — depends on the marine skill and ambush;

    Flamer is OP currently, IMO. To kill lifeforms you have to work together and combine the weapons. For example, GLs shoot the hive, shotgunners defend them from aliens (GL is pretty bad in close quarters), LMGs finish the aliens running away. It's quite hard for aliens to defend against a good teamwork (and vice versa though). Don't forget that GL fires with an arc trajectory that helps to shoot structures and enemies around the corner or obstacles, i.e. when you don't have a clear line of sight.

    Now to rushes. Yes, they're usually quick, destructive and require marines commander skill and reaction to prevent the defeat. Aliens usually don't rush if they're not losing heavily. And if they do, it means that marines don't die a lot and they don't respawn so the base is clear and open to rushes. The marines comm must build some observatories around the base room entrances to notice the rush early. It will give enough time to beacon or drop a second CC. It's even more important to build it in advance if marines don't meet any resistance and control almost the whole map. Rush is a great and fair strategy that allows to win an unwinnable game AND it encourages teamwork like no other strategy.

    Also, about the hard to kill lifeforms: the game is designed around the idea that aliens is a timer. If you don't defeat them early enough, they'll just steamroll marines. This is implemented in the form of powerful and expensive lifeforms so you play as a weak skulk most of the round and then instantly become much stronger. If the expensive lifeforms could be killed easily the game becomes unfair. Most of the marines equipment can be recycled after death (except jetpacks and exos), basically a marine death is "free" in terms of resource flow. Aliens lose everything when they die, no exceptions. So it's quite natural that killing an alien is hard enough and requires teamwork, aim, strategy and personal skill.

    tl;dr git gud :]
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
    bork
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 704 Advanced user
    bork wrote: »
    could outside observatory beacon marines to main base when power node is disabled?

    Just going to respond to this part since I'm on my phone...

    Yes it can! The obs you use to beacon will send marines to the nearest chair...

  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    bork wrote: »
    could outside observatory beacon marines to main base when power node is disabled?

    Just going to respond to this part since I'm on my phone...

    Yes it can! The obs you use to beacon will send marines to the nearest chair...

    Ok, that problem is skill problem, sorry then.
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    rkfg wrote: »
    bork, I guess your main problem is lack of teamplay and overall low player skill. This is a team game, it doesn't encourage players to rambo their way in. Usually, in one on one encounters aliens win with a few exceptions:
    - skulk vs LMG — LMG usually wins if the marine is any good;
    - lerk vs shotgun — shotgun wins or the lerk flies away with low hp;
    - fade vs shotgun — depends on the marine skill and ambush;

    Flamer is OP currently, IMO. To kill lifeforms you have to work together and combine the weapons. For example, GLs shoot the hive, shotgunners defend them from aliens (GL is pretty bad in close quarters), LMGs finish the aliens running away. It's quite hard for aliens to defend against a good teamwork (and vice versa though). Don't forget that GL fires with an arc trajectory that helps to shoot structures and enemies around the corner or obstacles, i.e. when you don't have a clear line of sight.

    Now to rushes. Yes, they're usually quick, destructive and require marines commander skill and reaction to prevent the defeat. Aliens usually don't rush if they're not losing heavily. And if they do, it means that marines don't die a lot and they don't respawn so the base is clear and open to rushes. The marines comm must build some observatories around the base room entrances to notice the rush early. It will give enough time to beacon or drop a second CC. It's even more important to build it in advance if marines don't meet any resistance and control almost the whole map. Rush is a great and fair strategy that allows to win an unwinnable game AND it encourages teamwork like no other strategy.

    Also, about the hard to kill lifeforms: the game is designed around the idea that aliens is a timer. If you don't defeat them early enough, they'll just steamroll marines. This is implemented in the form of powerful and expensive lifeforms so you play as a weak skulk most of the round and then instantly become much stronger. If the expensive lifeforms could be killed easily the game becomes unfair. Most of the marines equipment can be recycled after death (except jetpacks and exos), basically a marine death is "free" in terms of resource flow. Aliens lose everything when they die, no exceptions. So it's quite natural that killing an alien is hard enough and requires teamwork, aim, strategy and personal skill.

    tl;dr git gud :]

    i know about the aliens must be stronger than marines, time is working to aliens. Today born skulk had last chosen upgrade. In ability to born using bought eggs it makes the hive stronger 3 times. You cant control alien respawn now, because each skulk requires 20-30 ammo of lmg. Borning in rows of 3-4, it required at least 4 marines killing lifeforms and 4 killing hive. Or just shoot into hive trying to jump and dont shoot lifeforms at all.

    Is it just normal thing, than human MUST spent his live just for shoot some bullets to hive?

    What must suicide - attacking marine or defending alien?

    For me it is telling the aliens are very OP, because only luck can destroy that hive. You just ignore skill and tactics and try to attack this building, no matter how times you will die. You cant control of enemy respawn because each part of respawned aliens will get out from battle at least 4 marines!

    Its just trying to rush even if you had tactical win and nobody dies before! Really, guys! I undestand suiciding aliens because very fast respawn time. But building IPs for just overspam aliens by infantry count - its confusing me.

    Forgive me for that whine but the game becomes so fast, as you cant control the game process. Making some things faster and useful, you got speed up the game, and now 10 seconds is a really much time.

    Possible it is fun, but the nervous system sometimes just does not withstand such speed and understanding that just one mistake can break the game
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,477 Advanced user
    Why are cysts still in the game?
    mattji104
  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 474 Advanced user
    Well — the game sure is fast and requires a good reaction. It's not for everyone. Most encounters with skulks end in just 1-2 seconds so yeah, it's not like you have much time to plan your actions in those situations. I totally don't feel like I'm actually thinking when I fight one on one, it's pure muscle memory. I think and plan where to go and where I'm needed most but when it's time to fight the brain shuts down and hands do what they must. See, natural selection (in its primary sense) doesn't need brains, it needs fitness. And speed. And quick, precise aim. Nothing of that requires thinking.

    That said, have you tried playing aliens? If you think aliens are so OP then marines shouldn't stand a chance. Just play aliens and own the other team each time, easy elo, no? And if you lose on both sides then probably the game is balanced good enough because it doesn't favor just one side.

    There are people who are good marines and bad aliens and vice versa. There are people who are good everywhere. And there are people who are not skilled enough (yet) and they lose no matter what. That's fine, no one is born with the skill. Practice more, play against slightly better players (not pros as dying constantly is no fun but having a bit of a challenge sure is). You'll get there. I don't promise it will be fast and it might not even correlate with your playtime. I'm close to 3000 hours and I'm still rank 5 while there are pros who played much less and they have the orange badge. Your biological age is also a factor. I'm 31 and it sure shows, maybe my reaction isn't good enough (and I doubt it will improve) to become better and I'm stuck at rank 5 for eternity. Younger players can become pros in no time.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 704 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    @rkfj that last part is SO true.. age is such a huge determining factor when it comes to skill.

    If I had been playing NS2 in my early twenties I'd be able to dominate as a marine, but instead I'm pushing 40 and my hands don't work like they used to, thus I have trouble even killing skulks and Gorges 1v1.

    I laugh whenever I see someone saying aliens are op... When they work together and focus their fire it's virtually impossible to stop a marine push.

    Aliens actually win a fair % of games with rushes and bile bomb. Games which the alien team is grossly outmatched and has less than zero chance of winning otherwise..
    rkfgMouse
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    Ok, let me say my last opinion. This game currently have VERY OVERPOWERED groups of players but VERY WEAK single players. That's the reason the aliens must be overpower in single battle.

    It is stimulating teamplay, yes, because without teamplay you can do nothing there. But at least one battle unit in group increase the power of group twice.

    For nerf just the groups you can play with time of reload, running speed, weld speed and that things. Nowhere think that i sad it but the game is overteamplayed.....

    It makes game too fast, too lucky. One man cant rebuild resnodes because so weak. Two man cant rebuild because main group is so weak. Only lucky about enemy group made some mistakes give you chance.
  • rkfgrkfg Russia Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 474 Advanced user
    bork wrote: »
    Ok, let me say my last opinion. This game currently have VERY OVERPOWERED groups of players but VERY WEAK single players. That's the reason the aliens must be overpower in single battle.
    But aliens sure ARE overpowered against single marines. Like I said before, you mostly lose on 1-1 battles as a lower lifeform or against a strong weapon (but that's fair, no?). Don't forget that sole damage and armor don't define the destruction and battle power. As a skulk you can climb walls (that marines can't), you run much, much faster than marines, you can ambush them in unusual places (if marine is welding he needs time to switch to another weapon and is completely defenceless). Straightlining into marines is a good way to be killed instantly. Your main allies are the ability to hide, wait and ambush. Wait for the marines to pass and only then start to bite the RT. It's unlikely someone returns and if he does — congratulations, you just made a group of marines weaker by one person. Your teammates will more likely kill the rest of the group and you can quickly climb into the vent or hide somewhere else. If the marine starts welding the RT, sneak behind him and kill him quickly.

    Playing as a marine, always analyze why you died, what have you done wrong. At the same time, pay attention to the enemy behavior. Good fade/lerk players don't rush into a group of marines but instead sneak into the rear and kill them one by one. Good skulks don't engage marines at all, their main job is to bite RTs, not kill players. Crippling the economy wins the battles. Only kill marines when you need to, like when that marine is low and you need to secure yourself some time to finish biting the RT. If you just run around as a skulk and kill random marines without biting RTs, you don't help the team at all.

    The ping is also working in your favor, if the marine didn't notice you, you get additional milliseconds until he even starts moving. Same against you, if you sit in the open and just wait and a marine appears and starts shooting at you, you instantly jump to the cover and die because bullets hit you from around the corner. That's not a bug, it's called lag compensation and is an inevitable side effect in internet games. For the marine you've been visible the whole time, even after you hid in the vent or around the corner. For you it was unfair but it would be much worse for the other player to hit you with all his great aim and not get it counted because of your ping.

    In the end, the marines and alines winrate is very close to 50% so I don't think any of the side is overpowered. That said, some of the maps can be unbalanced giving one side an advantage, but it's much less that you could think, 2-3% at most.
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    @rkfj that last part is SO true.. age is such a huge determining factor when it comes to skill.

    If I had been playing NS2 in my early twenties I'd be able to dominate as a marine, but instead I'm pushing 40 and my hands don't work like they used to, thus I have trouble even killing skulks and Gorges 1v1.
    The hands are barely at fault IMO. It's the brain that shows its age, the neural paths getting clogged and such. Still, I think playing competitive, fast, team-based and reaction favoring shooters could help with Alzheimer's and stuff. Just as any intensive neural training though, be it programming or solving management problems. It prevents your neurons from degrading, forces you to prefer the common goal over instant short-sighted rewards and overall improves cognition.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v415.13, Debian Buster GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 3.5.6, kernel v4.19.1
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 374 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    bork wrote: »
    ...
    Well, I am that Handschuh (https://observatory.morrolan.ch/player/61 / https://www.ensl.org/users/1468 | https://www.twitch.tv/handschuuuh [when I actually have time to stream a bit]) lately I don't have to much time to play, but generally SEK is not my server because I try to join the server with the highest skill for obvious reasons (and having 111 Alienskill seems like overkill to make teams on SEK2000).


    But I am talking about public games, not about competitive 6vs6 gaming.


    Shotgun does not 100 damage... if lerks go close to a shotgun a lerk can get about 200 damage... so it is pretty risky to go aggressive

    - If your enemy has umbra and you go alone vs a structure... that is pretty useless anyway, that is why you have teammates... ;-)

    3) that scenario is plainly wrong?!
    for one if you have fast hive it is a risky move that aliens don't have res for upgrades/pve for a while and mostly no RTs... so they are actually at a weak spot due to that...if the Marines are not able to exploit that and deny some RTs and Lerks are up to quickly it is their problem.. playing only on the defensive side is always a bad idea...
    especially on11vs11 Marines seem to have much easier Rounds in general... the more players there are...

    6) last 3 hours I played NS2... I played maybe 90 Minutes Marine and had about 4-5 riflebuttkills - one was a lerk... nothing much, but pretty useful

    9) if you cannot kill a gorge with a clip, then you need to hold your fire a bit better... or finish with a pistol... generally I've made my point

    12) MG of NS2 is NOT HMG... it is a different weapon basically... maybe we'll see someday more weapons, but that is just a different weapon, because anything stronger would need further rebalancing
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    A bug detected: the egg of each lifeform requires human height above. I know about onos, but fade/lerk/gorge can born in ventilations too.
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    Thanks for your comments, i read it, very useful!
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    When you eject a commander it must be pushed out because they block console if lagged or just do not want to leave command station
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    12) MG of NS2 is NOT HMG...

    But this is an LMG what does half-damage to structures and 1.5 dmg to lifeforms, with 2 clips in and same shooting rate, what costs 10 + 30 + 10 + (20*n) res + 3 minutes.

    That gun quality may REPLACE lmg after upgrade and nobody see the changes, but getting half-tree of upgrades for "new lmg" is a stupid idea.

    Still don't know why speed of destroying Kharaa building from MG is slowest than from LMG. Maybe it is an antipersonel weapon. Ok, try to attack skulks... hm, they dies fast same as lmg. Ah, its just 60 res for clipsize... REALLY?

    All i want to say - or this weapon is weak, or the way to get it must be more simple. I see Jetpacks with flamers, i see even GL with their random effect - or kill all, or nobody, but HMG... it just like "trtrtrtrtrtrtrtr" and thats all.

    From upgrade "+25 clip to LMG" you'l get 3 times more effect.
    Post edited by bork on
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    The bug: babblers going throw closed doors (automatic doors). Detected on Ball Court location while the gorge throw its shell through broken window, the bablers go throw closed doors without opening

    ===

    EDITED:

    I see handschuh movies, every marine movie he's jumping with holded shift. I tried it in public, it increase marine power 2 times. Just one hotkey. Used mousewheeldown to +move (with x-mouse button control, of course).

    Promote to add button in options: "Constant move" like map behavior hold/constant... Small lifehack but very powered.
    Post edited by bork on
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 704 Advanced user
    Tip: at the top right of your posts is a little gear icon...

    Click it

    At the bottom you should see "edit" .. click that.

    Now you can add to your last post instead of having multiple posts in a row. :smiley:
    bork
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 830 Advanced user
    Frozen wrote: »
    Why are cysts still in the game?

    Because, despite the catchy news titles, oncology havent advanced so far.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 2018
    MoFo1 wrote:
    I laugh whenever I see someone saying aliens are op... When they work together and focus their fire it's virtually impossible to stop a marine push.

    Now i understand that. Have experience about 5 specops violet guys vs our 4 sky + 3 yellow guys, they just come into hive at 2:00 and we cant spawn at all. I think guys was on drugs or something. We just F4 even when marines haven't armor 1.

    That skill-orientired way is very dangerous... Onos and exo allowes you to play more relaxed, for a lot of resources, seems like equal...

    But if really skilled @[email protected] played, just impossible to stop that, As masters sad - "its your problem that skilled team owns you". But i see one grandmaster complaining that he creates new account because shuffle gives him seven mates with green icon, because he one has 5000...
    The_Welsh_Wizard
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