Should Hardcore have the option to be Roguelike?

0x6A7232 · October 2016

From Krow1913's post here:

Krow1913 wrote: »

15. Delete my game in Hardcore - I thought hardcore was going to be one chance. Not revert back to previous save. At least give an option to have game auto deleted if you die!

Reefseeker · October 2016

I say Roguelike. Hardcore ought to be hardcore. If you can save your progress, then it's something else. Of course also different stages easy-mode should be available for those who wish to play so.

Hammy2211 · October 2016

Reefseeker wrote: »

I say Roguelike. Hardcore ought to be hardcore. If you can save your progress, then it's something else. Of course also different stages easy-mode should be available for those who wish to play so.

I'm probably interpreting what you said incorrectly, but while I agree that Hardcore should probably delete your save when you die, removing the option to save altogether is ridiculous. People do need to sleep, after all. Subnautica isn't really something you can do in a few hours, unless you know exactly what you're doing and get really lucky. Even then that'd be pushing it.

Again, I'm probably interpreting this wrong. Roguelikes aren't my thing, so I don't really know how they work aside from permadeath.

Reefseeker · October 2016

Hammy2211 wrote: »

I'm probably interpreting what you said incorrectly...

No actually I just wrote utter nonsense

So I can see why the confusion! I did not mean to say saving should not happen at Hardcore.

What I should have written is, the savefile should be deleted when the player dies.

Hammy2211 · October 2016

Ah, alright. Glad that got cleared up.

Racer1 · October 2016

I would welcome a way to limit saves for purposes of reload at death to only certain places and/or for a limited number of times. With this approach, you would still be able to save any time you quit/restart the game, but that save would not be used if you die. Subnautica is just too complex to have real permadeath. There will always be unintended (read: buggy) ways to kill/hamstring yourself, which can be infuriating.

ImmortalHunter · October 2016

Hardcore should be HARDCORE! Not lame, it should make you cry after a painful death

0x6A7232 · October 2016

Yeah, with a Roguelike, you get a save file, but it's only for resuming. Upon death, the file is erased so you can't resume. Scumm saving (save scumming?) is when you take the save file and back it up so that you can resume even if you die. To prevent that, the game can delete the save file on resume, and only create it on save / exit. But, then you could just back it up before launching the game!

EvilSmoo · October 2016

0x6A7232 wrote: »

Yeah, with a Roguelike, you get a save file, but it's only for resuming. Upon death, the file is erased so you can't resume. Scumm saving (save scumming?) is when you take the save file and back it up so that you can resume even if you die. To prevent that, the game can delete the save file on resume, and only create it on save / exit. But, then you could just back it up before launching the game!

Hardcore should be a personal choice. If someone wants to play any mode, they should be able to, however they want to. What's the point of forcing the player to do it your way? Does it affect you if someone else save-scums? There is neither multiplayer nor leaderboard.

Besides, the only way to prevent people from cheating is to stand behind them with a baseball bat, watching the screen. They can always back up save files, use console, use cheat programs, use trainers. It's a waste of energy to try and police in a SP game. Just have HC mode delete the save on death, and move on with your life.

Is this just a matter of internet bragging rights and lack of self-control?

0x6A7232 · October 2016

EvilSmoo wrote: »

<snip>

dude.

Let me show you something:

:init
@echo off
set saveFolder=%userprofile%\Documents\My Games\FasterThanLight
set saveFile=continue.sav
set backupFile=continue.bak
set saved=1
set loaded=1
:choiceLauncher
cls
@echo FTL Menu
set choice=
set /p choice=(S)ave/(L)oad/(F)TL/(Q)uit:
if not %choice%=='' set choice=%choice:~0,1%
if %choice%==s goto fctSave
if %choice%==S goto fctSave
if %choice%==l goto fctLoad
if %choice%==L goto fctLoad
if %choice%==f goto launchGame
if %choice%==F goto launchGame
if %choice%==q goto :eof
if %choice%==Q goto :eof
goto choiceLauncher
:fctSave
cls
if exist "%saveFolder%\%saveFile%" (
    if exist "%saveFolder%\%backupFile%" (
        call :choiceSave
    ) else (
        echo Creating new backup..
        call :save
    )
) else (
    echo No Saved Game...
)
goto choiceLauncher
:fctLoad
cls
if exist "%saveFolder%\%backupFile%" (
    if exist "%saveFolder%\%saveFile%" (
        call :choiceLoad
    ) else (
        echo Restoring backup..
        call :load
    )
) else (
    echo No file restored...
)
goto choiceLauncher
:launchGame
@echo Launching FTL
start /wait FTLGame.exe
goto choiceLauncher
:choiceSave
@echo Erase old backup ?
set choice=
set /p choice=(Y)es/(N)o:
if not %choice%=='' set choice=%choice:~0,1%
if %choice%==y goto save
if %choice%==Y goto save
if %choice%==n goto choiceLauncher
if %choice%==N goto choiceLauncher
goto choiceSave
:save
copy "%saveFolder%\%saveFile%" "%saveFolder%\%backupFile%"
set saved=%errorlevel%
goto :eof
:choiceLoad
@echo Overwrite the current saved game ?
set choice=
set /p choice=(Y)es/(N)o:
if not %choice%=='' set choice=%choice:~0,1%
if %choice%==y goto load
if %choice%==Y goto load
if %choice%==n goto choiceLauncher
if %choice%==N goto choiceLauncher
goto choiceLoad
:load
copy "%saveFolder%\%backupFile%" "%saveFolder%\%saveFile%"
set loaded=%errorlevel%
goto :eof

That's a Scumm-saving script that someone made that I improved and personally use for FTL. I openly admit that I use it.

I'm not trying to earn magical mushroom brownie points with anyone, I'm simply floating the idea of an option (note my vote, above, have the option to use Roguelike in Hardcore). The post you quoted was simply me explaining Roguelike mechanisms that those games use, in case anyone found it mildly interesting.

So please calm down, I'm not trying to draft you into the Fourth Roguelike Reich or anything like that. O.o

yellowsub · October 2016

Im open to the option however I could see myself getting bored with constant start again so my thought would be that you can only save in safe zones eg the escape pod and your bases but nowhere else. This limits the over cautious savers and reloads you to before that poor decision you made or that slow load you encountered.

I feel this would be a even compromise between classic save every 10 mins to combat lag and the start from scratch because you hit the invisible mountain.

TotallyLemon · October 2016

I could see this being a separate mode.

Tarkannen · October 2016

I voted yes for the roguelike option of gameplay, but I'm not 100% on board with it. In most roguelikes you do lose your inventory and some progress if you die while in dungeons, but most times you aren't forced to start your game completely over if that happens. Also I should point out, in most roguelikes the areas that you explore are procedurally generated with random recurring elements; as much as I would like to see that in Subnautica I realize the current game engine can't allow for it. So, to me it's kind of odd to compare the two gameplay styles... I would just say to apply the Nuzlocke challenge and if you die on Hardcore, then you immediately delete your save file and start over again.

Edit: When Subnautica first came to early access, didn't it originally not have the ability to save game progress at all? I couldn't imagine someone willingly have to start their game completely over every time they died, much less every time they launched the game...

0x6A7232 · November 2016

Some people are masochists, I guess.

Should Hardcore have the option to be Roguelike?

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