Build 310 is now live on Steam! - Natural Selection 2

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  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    More or less. The point is to let them see that it is limited, not broken.

    Let me explain why I don't think transparency can lead to trust of the system.
    • Most players do not care or try to understand the system. They simply judge it by its results.
    • Some players do try to understand the system and understand it poorly. They think of it as a system based on XP and points as opposed to the statistics and learning.
    • To most players, the hive skill information given during a round is completely arbitrary.

    I am not saying players can not understand the skill system, but that it is not easy to understand, especially if all you see are strange numbers from 0 to 5000.

    I argue that visible hive skill values makes the small errors more visible, so they seem more prevalent than they really are, which decreases trust in the system.

    Fair enough. I've quite forgotten how hopeless most players are. Basically you think the majority of players are idiots who don't understand the concept of limitations in the first place and will come to the conclusion that hive is broken either way. I can live with that, although I think it might be better to let those players who do understand see it as it makes a difference to them even if it doesn't to the idiots.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    My opinion has little to do with intelligence in my opinion. I know some very bright players who don't care to understand the system, or worse, understand it poorly.

    The system does not make intuitive sense. At face value it is not easy to understand, nor is it necessary to understand, so most players don't get further than that.

    It is human nature for people, even the smartest of people, to go with what makes intuitive sense. This is seen with nearly every complex subject.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    .trixX.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Well, I would have called them mofos, but I went to take a look at what "mofo" actually meant. You are only disagreeing with the term used but not the message though.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    It is more nuanced than that. I disagree with the term and the why. There are players I know that I genuinely find very intelligent for whatever reason do not understand the system. The mofo's of this game, as amusing as that is to say, has little to do with it.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Lack of introspection probably. Its the system that is at fault, not them. Polls are rigged, yo.
  • ArchieArchie AntarcticaMembers, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Posts: 441 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    So Nordic can you explain to me why balance based on varying factors of below isn't implemented?

    K:D, broken down into lifeform play, it's obvious if someone spent 40minutes as a lerk and got 50kills vs someone who went lerk for 40 minutes and got 1 kill who is the more skilled player, the skill transfer isn't that great for alien-marine i know that, but we're not judging everything off one data-set are we now? so why not account for each individual players skill breakdown when implementing it?

    for marines it should include
    time spent building structures, and kills / death
    for aliens it should include
    time spent as lifeform and kills / death for those specific life forms

    the problem is you're trying to balance tons of bad metrics. most of the reasons stacking happens is because good players want to play on the team of there own choosing, nothing to do with a rookie who has 1500hive1 skill who joins a stacked team, they add nothing to the team other then to add to some bullshit filter that you apply when taking your statistics.

    think of it from my point of view, you have a massive inbalance on a server 18 people playing 6 people on the server are really good, but not always does the hive reflect that, sometimes it does but it's not very accurate, so you break down the stats into individual player, for marines as above, time building and k:d, for aliens time spent and k:d (with offset for gorging, heal points and structures built etc etc.) algorithm needs to split the server up into junk and not junk when accounting for that balance, you may have 4 really good players who are consistently good and can ruin the whole game, so you don't stack the guy who builds and has high K;D on marines with the best gorge on the server, you split them onto respective teams, otherwise you're going to get a really good lerk and a really good pistol hero who just shoots to increase his accuracy each game on aliens, which can fuck with balance because he's not a very good lifeform.

    Please tell me why this cannot be done and why i am completely wrong in my approach?
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    You are asking a design question, which would be more apt to ask @moultano since it is his design. I try to answer questions when and where I can because, lets be honest, I have too much time on my hands. Moultano is the expert. I could tell you some good reasons why hive uses win / loss, but I have a feeling you have read all those comments before. If I tried to answer your question I would at best be giving educated guesses. The kind of question you were asking is not as simple as the ones I usually try to answer. I am not positive it could not be done, nor do I think it is a completely wrong approach. It is an approach that falls outside of the paradigms that hive currently uses.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • HellsHells Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-24 Member: 188437Posts: 3 Fully active user
    As a post about the actual update, I think this might be slightly welcomed in this thread.

    Is it possible for you guys to implement an option, either through the ns2+ settings or standard options menu, to revert the animations back to pre-update standards?

    Now, I know you guys probably love and treasure all the effort you put into the new animations, but for those of us who simply dislike them, for reasons I'll state later, would it be so hard simply to provide an option in some form? Several people on the server I regularly play on, hate and stand against these animations, so you definitely aren't just serving the request of an individual.

    Also, considering the current options in ns2+, (and it seems this post would be directed at whoever maintains ns2+ now, but that won't happen anytime soon) this option is basically begging to be placed into that mod, and provide the needed alternative to the change. Currently, I am, and others, basically forced to play without viewmodels on in the current state, because the change to the mental approach and habit of aiming for marine, at least for me, has been affected. The placing of the viewmodel currently seems too large and out of place, the animations obscure parts of the screen usually unconsciously used for aiming and undertaking several actions of whatever I do as marine, that has significantly dropped my overall ability tremendously when viewmodels are on.

    Maybe I should just get used to it, but considering I have basically habituated myself to play in the traditional marine viewmodel for the last 3 years or so, changing seems like such a daunting task. It would be easier and simpler, I believe, to simply provide this option to better suit the community and the partial amount of players who despise this change to a system untouched for years. Use Ns2+ as it was designed for and provide this option, please. Otherwise I will have to stick to no viewmodel and gain some magical advantage that people talk about :).
    Vetinarimigalski
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Hells wrote: »
    As a post about the actual update, I think this might be slightly welcomed in this thread.

    Is it possible for you guys to implement an option, either through the ns2+ settings or standard options menu, to revert the animations back to pre-update standards?

    Now, I know you guys probably love and treasure all the effort you put into the new animations, but for those of us who simply dislike them, for reasons I'll state later, would it be so hard simply to provide an option in some form? Several people on the server I regularly play on, hate and stand against these animations, so you definitely aren't just serving the request of an individual.

    Also, considering the current options in ns2+, (and it seems this post would be directed at whoever maintains ns2+ now, but that won't happen anytime soon) this option is basically begging to be placed into that mod, and provide the needed alternative to the change. Currently, I am, and others, basically forced to play without viewmodels on in the current state, because the change to the mental approach and habit of aiming for marine, at least for me, has been affected. The placing of the viewmodel currently seems too large and out of place, the animations obscure parts of the screen usually unconsciously used for aiming and undertaking several actions of whatever I do as marine, that has significantly dropped my overall ability tremendously when viewmodels are on.

    Maybe I should just get used to it, but considering I have basically habituated myself to play in the traditional marine viewmodel for the last 3 years or so, changing seems like such a daunting task. It would be easier and simpler, I believe, to simply provide this option to better suit the community and the partial amount of players who despise this change to a system untouched for years. Use Ns2+ as it was designed for and provide this option, please. Otherwise I will have to stick to no viewmodel and gain some magical advantage that people talk about :).

    ...playing with a view model hiding mod actually seems like a neat response to the animation changes. I don't particularly like them, either; maybe I should take this as motivation to try one...
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    migalski
  • NovoReiNovoRei USMembers Join Date: 2014-11-18 Member: 199718Posts: 83 Advanced user
    Archie wrote: »
    Please tell me why this cannot be done and why i am completely wrong in my approach?

    It can be done and it´s partially implemented (the score points for each action such as kill, assist, build, etc).

    What you are asking is a system that weight the effort of the player and rewards less/more points based on the team hive skill value reward.

    The difficult part is to tune the scores and the distribution in order to not create discrepancies.


  • HellsHells Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-24 Member: 188437Posts: 3 Fully active user
    edited October 2016

    ...playing with a view model hiding mod actually seems like a neat response to the animation changes. I don't particularly like them, either; maybe I should take this as motivation to try one...

    It's an actual option in ns2+ but server owners have to enable it themselves. I personally had to request it considering I basically can't play marine after the change, and thankfully the admin did so for me and others that couldn't stand it. You are probably going to have to ask the server op. of your own server to enable the option, sadly...
    migalski
  • maD maXmaD maX Members Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Posts: 349 Fully active user
    edited October 2016
    Did I miss a post where the Hive 2 algorithm was broken down?? I went from 2700hive1 to 4400hive2... I feel like people expect me to carry now, and I'm not that good LOL

    Am I accidentally gaining the new system? I felt like the previous hive score was pretty accurate. 3.2k players were clearly better then me and now 2.5k players were ok... Now many of those 2.5k players are <1.5k and the 3.5k players are still 3.5k........... BUT I'm 4.4k????????

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    maD maX wrote: »
    Did I miss a post where the Hive 2 algorithm was broken down?? I went from 2700hive1 to 4400hive2... I feel like people expect me to carry now, and I'm not that good LOL
    Am I accidentally gaining the new system? I felt like the previous hive score was pretty accurate. 3.2k players were clearly better then me and now 2.5k players were ok... Now many of those 2.5k players are <1.5k and the 3.5k players are still 3.5k........... BUT I'm 4.4k????????
    This blog post explains the hive system really well.

    On top of that, this is from the b310 changelog that was the start of this thread.
    Hive 2.0
    • Algorithm Changes
    • Instead of a constant learning rate, Hive now uses both an AdaGrad-based learning rate and a constant learning rate. This makes skill values change faster initially, but change slower once they’ve converged. Expect large changes to your skill value for your first several games in the new system.
    • Skill values imported from the old hive system have been modified using a function of play time. (Thanks Nordic!) This fixes the issue where some new players started with a skill of 1000, and others started with a skill of 0. This has the effect of reducing all skill values, particularly those of newer players.
    • Exploits involving switching teams mid-game have been fixed. Players that switch teams will be credited with both a win and a loss, and the skill updates will be proportional to how long they played on each team, weighting the beginning of the game much more than the end.
    • Games with few human players no longer cause anomalously large skill updates. Games with fewer than 12 human players will have a very small effect on skills.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • maD maXmaD maX Members Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Posts: 349 Fully active user
    @Nordic
    I read that.... but I'm more interested in the difference in observed variables. My understanding is that the previous ELO was primarily a function of win/loss(+/-), difference in team skill, and game duration with little to no weight on k/d, kill per min, structure DMg, accuracy, etc...


    Now I have been told that my "contribution" is included. My assumption is that a base equation like ... (+/-)*(A*(K/D)+B*(structure dmg)+C*(time in round)+D*(score).....)+ previous ELO. Where A, B, C.... are multipliers that are adjusted by the "machine learning".

    I feel like I must be doing something that is overly weighted and is scewing my score....
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    As far as I know hive is still entirely about win loss and differences in team skill. It uses that information to learn your relative skill as described in the blog post I linked. Could you elaborate where you heard your "contribution" is included?

    As Moultano put it on discord the other day, if your win rate is above 50% then your hive skill will go up until your win rate is at 50%. If your win rate is below 50%, your hive skill will go down until it is at 50%. I am going to assume that since hive 2 was launched you have won more games than lost, and those you saw go down have lost more games than won. Expect large changes to your skill value for the first several games in the new system. It should correct itself over time.

    Win rate is total wins / total games played.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Hells wrote: »

    ...playing with a view model hiding mod actually seems like a neat response to the animation changes. I don't particularly like them, either; maybe I should take this as motivation to try one...

    It's an actual option in ns2+ but server owners have to enable it themselves. I personally had to request it considering I basically can't play marine after the change, and thankfully the admin did so for me and others that couldn't stand it. You are probably going to have to ask the server op. of your own server to enable the option, sadly...

    I tried the ns2+ one; didn't particularly like it, since it doesn't show how much ammo you have left and my situational awareness is not that great. However, keats' view model mod keeps the ammo counter and hides the gun.

    I'm surprised by how much clearer my screen is now. I will definitely try attacking marines from the bottom right in the future.
    Btw @Keats you need to update your mod to hide the MG :P
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • maD maXmaD maX Members Join Date: 2010-01-28 Member: 70347Posts: 349 Fully active user
    edited October 2016
    @Nordic I heard it from the most reliable of sources... people with microphones!!

    I have played quite abut since hive 2 came online, and it appears to have stabilized. BUT I suppose that my skill level is relitive to everyone else's... so until everyone else's is stable I'm SOL...

    As to why I think people assume that it's based on "contributions"

    Hive1- everyone on the winning side got X amount of ELO, and everyone on the losing side lost the same X amount. ELO was clearly finite.

    Hive2- everyone seems to get/lose a different amount of ELO. Some get/lose ALOT some almost none... this brings up the question as to why? We assumed that it was based on contribution

    Post edited by maD maX on
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain HighMembers, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Hells wrote: »

    ...playing with a view model hiding mod actually seems like a neat response to the animation changes. I don't particularly like them, either; maybe I should take this as motivation to try one...

    It's an actual option in ns2+ but server owners have to enable it themselves. I personally had to request it considering I basically can't play marine after the change, and thankfully the admin did so for me and others that couldn't stand it. You are probably going to have to ask the server op. of your own server to enable the option, sadly...

    I tried the ns2+ one; didn't particularly like it, since it doesn't show how much ammo you have left and my situational awareness is not that great.

    There are additional hud options in ns2+ which allow you to change how your health and ammo are displayed. I play with view models off where allowed, and have it set to show ammo in the lower right corner (i think). You do have to be mindful about what the ammo says to make sure you've got the right gun out. Obviously x/50 would be rifle, x/10 pistol, but even knowing these, i still accidentally start holding m1 to shoot a skulk in my face, only to realize i still have pistol equipped. Doesnt happen all the time, but every now and again.

    Hells
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    2cough wrote: »
    Hells wrote: »

    ...playing with a view model hiding mod actually seems like a neat response to the animation changes. I don't particularly like them, either; maybe I should take this as motivation to try one...

    It's an actual option in ns2+ but server owners have to enable it themselves. I personally had to request it considering I basically can't play marine after the change, and thankfully the admin did so for me and others that couldn't stand it. You are probably going to have to ask the server op. of your own server to enable the option, sadly...

    I tried the ns2+ one; didn't particularly like it, since it doesn't show how much ammo you have left and my situational awareness is not that great.

    There are additional hud options in ns2+ which allow you to change how your health and ammo are displayed. I play with view models off where allowed, and have it set to show ammo in the lower right corner (i think). You do have to be mindful about what the ammo says to make sure you've got the right gun out. Obviously x/50 would be rifle, x/10 pistol, but even knowing these, i still accidentally start holding m1 to shoot a skulk in my face, only to realize i still have pistol equipped. Doesnt happen all the time, but every now and again.

    That's why I prefer Keats' mod. There's no ambiguity there since it shows just enough of the gun to clearly convey which one it is.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    Nominous
  • migalskimigalski BostonMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Posts: 111 Advanced user
    Now if we could only get view models disabled for all servers....
  • KeatsKeats United StatesMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Posts: 154 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    @F0rdPrefect As I tried to make clear on the workshop, I did not create any part of that mod. I barely felt comfortable publishing it without the owner's permission (couldn't find him to ask). I do not feel comfortable altering it, as that would muddy the mod's attribution. I could use the mod as "inspiration" for my own separate mod but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that either, plus I never use the MG.
    PM sent.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Keats wrote: »
    @F0rdPrefect As I tried to make clear on the workshop, I did not create any part of that mod. I barely felt comfortable publishing it without the owner's permission (couldn't find him to ask). I do not feel comfortable altering it, as that would muddy the mod's attribution. I could use the mod as "inspiration" for my own separate mod but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that either, plus I never use the MG.

    I see. I didn't read the description, only the title, so I didn't notice. I barely use the MG, too, it's just something I noticed by chance.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    A
    As Moultano put it on discord the other day, if your win rate is above 50% then your hive skill will go up until your win rate is at 50%. If your win rate is below 50%, your hive skill will go down until it is at 50%. I am going to assume that since hive 2 was launched you have won more games than lost, and those you saw go down have lost more games than won. Expect large changes to your skill value for the first several games in the new system. It should correct itself over time.

    Well, that's not entirely correct as there is no matchmaking and shuffle isn't always used. A lot of the matches recorded in Hive don't have equal teams. The 50% winrate scenario would only happen if the system always decided who plays against who, which is not the case with ns2.

    NousWandererBestProfileNameNordic
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 864 Advanced user
    migalski wrote: »
    Now if we could only get view models disabled for all servers....

    but... but i want my skulk teeth :(
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »
    migalski wrote: »
    Now if we could only get view models disabled for all servers....

    but... but i want my skulk teeth :(

    What he means is that he would like to disable his viewmodels on all servers. Right now it only works on servers where the operators permit it.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    Once others can disable view models, anyone who doesn't is playing with a disadvantage.. So in order to stay competitive you have to disable them = no more skulk teeth.
    I'm surprised by how much clearer my screen is now. I will definitely try attacking marines from the bottom right in the future.

    This quote says it all. If viewmodels are allowed to be disabled across all servers then being a rookie becomes even worse. "How are they seeing me so easily!?! They must be hacking!!" <- no, they just don't have a gun/teeth on their screen.

  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain HighMembers, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Once others can disable view models, anyone who doesn't is playing with a disadvantage.. So in order to stay competitive you have to disable them = no more skulk teeth.
    I'm surprised by how much clearer my screen is now. I will definitely try attacking marines from the bottom right in the future.

    This quote says it all. If viewmodels are allowed to be disabled across all servers then being a rookie becomes even worse. "How are they seeing me so easily!?! They must be hacking!!" <- no, they just don't have a gun/teeth on their screen.

    You're just the champion for rookies, aren't you? Please tell me, when you play with viewmodels off, @mofo1, do you have an advantage?

    Speaking for myself, I absolutely PREFER to have them off, but I also absolutely CANNOT say that I play better on servers where I can play with them off versus when I cant. There's literally 0 difference. It's a PREFERENCE.

    So please tell me, @mofo1, do you get this craaaaaazy big advantage when you play with viewmodels off?

    While you're here, Mofo, I'd like to point one other thing out to you. For someone who says they NEVER get to play alien and ALWAYS are forced to play marines:

    As of Oct. 11, I know this iteration of the hive is outdated but you were making these complaints long before, you had over 75% of your games played as alien. 1080h, 44 min to be exact, versus 312h, 52 min as marine. To say that you're always forced to play marine is a serious, serious exaggeration, and I hope that this could maybe be a pie in your face to wake you up and realize that you just complain about each and every little thing with little basis in reality. It's entertaining, but it's old hat.
    NordicmigalskiVetinari
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Before I started getting forced to Marine all the time (and subsequently complaining about it) hive showed over 95% of my time spent on Aliens... I didn't start complaining about being forced to marine until I had over 2500 hours.. Of my last 100 hours I spent at the absolute very least 70 on Marine...

    Nice attempt to use stats against me though (and an EXCELLENT example of how they aren't as perfect as you think)

    As for the viewmodel thing the advantage lies in being able to see what your gun/teeth would normally hide... it doesn't make you magically play better (a ridiculous statement you're trying to put in my mouth to make me seem wrong) but it does let you see more. I even quoted someone else stating as much...

    So just like max vs min infestation... if you have the option and play with it on, you are at a disadvantage. (Which again most rookies won't even know about)

    Just because you don't agree doesn't mean my complaints are insignificant or invalid..
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    Weren't you supposed to be gone already?
    NordicmigalskiHandschuh
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