Build 310 is now live on Steam! - Natural Selection 2

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  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain HighMembers, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    new pistol animations dont match up w/ the sound at all. looks bad imo.
  • NovoReiNovoRei USMembers Join Date: 2014-11-18 Member: 199718Posts: 83 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Frozen wrote: »
    @NovoRei You're a fraud

    Besides naming and shaming, would you care to contribute and say what do you disagree?
    Nordic wrote: »
    Please do not compare public NS2 to the Olympics. Public NS2 is like a couple fields kind of playing soccer with no organization. Sometimes they play soccer, sometimes they just kick a ball around, and sometimes they keep score. This is pretty far from organized teams and pick up games that you might find in intramurals. Intramurals are also pretty far from pro soccer.
    Comparing public NS2 to the Olympics is a poor comparison.
    The comparison is sound if NS2 can be considered a sport (magnitude doesn't matter). Public NS2 is just a part of the whole.
    Both (Olympics / NS2) have competing individuals / teams.
    Both require mastering sets of skills.
    Both have leagues, places for competing, training, etc.
    Both have rules, an administrative organization, etc.
    Both have bets, sponsoring, expectation, etc.

    And the following was implied:
    Teams/Individuals compete to show which one is the best (ENSL, gathers or public). That´s why a rank exists. That´s why a Hive system should not be hidden.
    Comparing hive to the Olympic podium is also a poor comparison, moreso coming from the biggest hive exploiter of all.
    Sorry for being a local maximum while the creators expected a global maximum...

  • rkfgrkfg RussiaMembers, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Posts: 477 Advanced user
    Hmm, I can only say for myself regarding the Hive skill, but... after it got hidden I feel relieved. No longer I play for increasing that stupid number and keeping it above 2000, I play for fun. I don't leave the team early if we're losing (because that would hurt my rating less according to the algorithm), I play to the end. I also won't jump to the opposite team if I can and my own team is losing (this would count as a win, though with a little to no skill increase but won't hurt win/lose ratio). Now I'm playing just like old times when there was no Hive. Isn't that good?

    I know, for many people the skill rating is valuable. They could brag about it or make a forum signature out of it. That's totally fine in my book. However, it introduces a meta-game when you no longer play the game itself but more and more play NS2 only to win that rating meta-game and gain some weight (or rage when it goes down). And that's something to worry about. Public opinion about your skill matters, others start to mention you while balancing the game, become afraid of you in encounters and so on. But the game becomes less fun and starts to feel more like job. Except you get an increase of a number in the hive's database instead of increasing the number in your bank's database which is a bit more valuable I guess...
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v430.40, Debian Testing GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 4.3, kernel v5.1.7
    NordicmigalskiantouYojimbo
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    rkfg wrote: »
    Hmm, I can only say for myself regarding the Hive skill, but... after it got hidden I feel relieved. No longer I play for increasing that stupid number and keeping it above 2000, I play for fun. I don't leave the team early if we're losing (because that would hurt my rating less according to the algorithm), I play to the end. I also won't jump to the opposite team if I can and my own team is losing (this would count as a win, though with a little to no skill increase but won't hurt win/lose ratio). Now I'm playing just like old times when there was no Hive. Isn't that good?

    I know, for many people the skill rating is valuable. They could brag about it or make a forum signature out of it. That's totally fine in my book. However, it introduces a meta-game when you no longer play the game itself but more and more play NS2 only to win that rating meta-game and gain some weight (or rage when it goes down). And that's something to worry about. Public opinion about your skill matters, others start to mention you while balancing the game, become afraid of you in encounters and so on. But the game becomes less fun and starts to feel more like job. Except you get an increase of a number in the hive's database instead of increasing the number in your bank's database which is a bit more valuable I guess...

    Thank you for describing one of the other social dilemmas created by having public hive skill values. I find it wonderful that you are once again playing for fun.

    Also, hive 2.0 now counts your time on each team separately so if you were to join the other team at rounds end your hive skill value would still go down from your time on the loosing team. It would also go up for your time on the winning team. The amount varies based on how long you were on each team.
    NovoRei wrote: »
    The comparison is sound if NS2 can be considered a sport (magnitude doesn't matter). Public NS2 is just a part of the whole.
    The comparison is not sound.

    Is the random field with a soccer ball in any way officially compared to pro players? No its not.

    I do think hive is a decent measure and is representative of a players skill. Awhile back I wrote way to long a post describing why I thought that. Saying that, I also recognize that hive's accuracy begins to fall apart with competitive players. I think most people recognize that hive skill values are relative to the cohorts they typically play with. I mostly play on TGNS, an NA server, and my hive skill is not entirely comparable to someone who mostly plays on Wooza's, a 42 slot EU server. Both of those servers have very niche communities that mostly play on a single server. A 2000 hive skill TGNS player is not equally skilled as a 2000 hive skill wooza player. If those players switch places their hive skills would readjust to the new community.

    It is this relativity of who you are playing with that makes the comparison not sound.

    Pro soccer players are not judged with the same measures that the school yard is.

    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    rkfg
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    I was talking about hive with someone today and they described something better than I have so far and I thought I would share.

    This person described how they thought of hive as a system based on XP and points. This is the flawed viewpoint I have been trying to point out. Hive is a system based on statistics, averages, and learning. Maybe describing it in this way will benefit someone.

    If you did not read this blog post I recommend it. It is the best description of hive that I know of. The picture also helps.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Mouse
  • lhooqlhooq 666Members Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210940Posts: 19 Fully active user
    SnX wrote: »
    I need stats or I won't survive. Connect Hive 2 to scoreboard please for the time being. Let the community vote on it what to do with it.

    Like we voted on the health bars?
    Democracy is a lie for the peons.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    rkfg wrote: »
    Hmm, I can only say for myself regarding the Hive skill, but... after it got hidden I feel relieved. No longer I play for increasing that stupid number and keeping it above 2000, I play for fun. I don't leave the team early if we're losing (because that would hurt my rating less according to the algorithm), I play to the end. I also won't jump to the opposite team if I can and my own team is losing (this would count as a win, though with a little to no skill increase but won't hurt win/lose ratio). Now I'm playing just like old times when there was no Hive. Isn't that good?

    I know, for many people the skill rating is valuable. They could brag about it or make a forum signature out of it. That's totally fine in my book. However, it introduces a meta-game when you no longer play the game itself but more and more play NS2 only to win that rating meta-game and gain some weight (or rage when it goes down). And that's something to worry about. Public opinion about your skill matters, others start to mention you while balancing the game, become afraid of you in encounters and so on. But the game becomes less fun and starts to feel more like job. Except you get an increase of a number in the hive's database instead of increasing the number in your bank's database which is a bit more valuable I guess...
    Nordic wrote: »
    Thank you for describing one of the other social dilemmas created by having public hive skill values. I find it wonderful that you are once again playing for fun.

    Because hive dictates how you behave. Okay. Do you guys only give donations for the tax deduction too?
  • rkfgrkfg RussiaMembers, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Posts: 477 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Because hive dictates how you behave. Okay. Do you guys only give donations for the tax deduction too?
    I don't get what you mean as my employer pays all the taxes. Anyway, on the Russian server you can see the current skill at the scoreboard sometimes and I've noticed it went up a lot compared to the old Hive. Our team also won all of the games I played so it was fun. Hope with the new Hive I won't have such devastating lose streaks as 10-15 in a row.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v430.40, Debian Testing GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 4.3, kernel v5.1.7
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Hive does not dictate how I behave, but it does others. Do you remember this thread? I can not dismiss that visible hive skill does stress people out even if it does not bother me. In that thread Frozen described how hive skill became a primary motivation for him to play.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • rkfgrkfg RussiaMembers, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Posts: 477 Advanced user
    Well, people are just being people. If some number is public and a player can affect its value, they will affect it with all their might. It doesn't even have anything to do with skill, it could reflect some progress or amount of time/money/efforts the player spent on the game. Nevertheless, they'll make it go up (or down, depending on what's better). Competitiveness is in people's flesh and blood, you can't do anything about it. Some people are just less affected than others and maybe those unaffected compete in other areas like real life money, cars or women. That's totally normal but if it gets in the way of the game itself it should be hidden or somehow reworked to remove that unnecessary call to competition where it should not be. I have no ideas how to do so though.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v430.40, Debian Testing GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 4.3, kernel v5.1.7
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    rkfg wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Because hive dictates how you behave. Okay. Do you guys only give donations for the tax deduction too?
    I don't get what you mean as my employer pays all the taxes. Anyway, on the Russian server you can see the current skill at the scoreboard sometimes and I've noticed it went up a lot compared to the old Hive. Our team also won all of the games I played so it was fun. Hope with the new Hive I won't have such devastating lose streaks as 10-15 in a row.

    That's interesting. The point about tax deductions is that you get taxed less if you have donated to a registered charity because your donations count against your taxable income. Basically, its an incentive by governments to make donations more appealing, although you'd still be likely to have donated more than have your tax reduced.
    Nordic wrote: »
    Hive does not dictate how I behave, but it does others. Do you remember this thread? I can not dismiss that visible hive skill does stress people out even if it does not bother me. In that thread Frozen described how hive skill became a primary motivation for him to play.

    I don't see your sympathy for people who have just lost their primary motivation to play though?
    rkfg
  • rkfgrkfg RussiaMembers, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Posts: 477 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Aeglos wrote: »
    That's interesting. The point about tax deductions is that you get taxed less if you have donated to a registered charity because your donations count against your taxable income. Basically, its an incentive by governments to make donations more appealing, although you'd still be likely to have donated more than have your tax reduced.
    Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know about such things.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v430.40, Debian Testing GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 4.3, kernel v5.1.7
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    I personally recognize and understand it is a motivation for some players. I also recognize and understand it has negative social effects in game. I view this in terms of cost/benefits. In terms of trade offs I think hiding hive skill values is a net positive. I think Rkfg's comment is an example of this. I have consistently argued for hiding hive skill values. I expect people to disagree such as you, Aeglos, have in the past.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Honestly, I couldn't care less about hive. I disagree with hiding skill values only because I think its better for people to retain trust in shuffle. At least they have something to refer to when a shuffle goes bad, rather than dismissing the entire shuffle system out of hand.

    I'm just really bemused at people laying the blame of their behaviour on it.
    Handschuh
  • rkfgrkfg RussiaMembers, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-09-03 Member: 187744Posts: 477 Advanced user
    I think displaying the average and standard deviation is enough. Although of course the actual rating values are known to the game and due to its high moddability they could be shown for those interested.
    Intel Core i7-7700k, 32Gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 1070 GTX driver v430.40, Debian Testing GNU/Linux amd64, Awesome WM 4.3, kernel v5.1.7
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    For many people, displaying or not displaying hive is the difference between putting someone with a clipboard behind them, watching them play and grading them. I, too, suffered from this illusion at certain times even though I was aware of it. By hiding skill values, people can return to carefree, non-judgy play.

    I like the idea of only displaying the first two numbers or rounded values, or creating skill brackets (credit to whoever brought that up first). You get the benefits of being able to judge others, but people won't be under constant stress because their skill value might go down 20 points or so. Of course there will still be people trying to game the system, but your average player won't feel like he's immediately being graded all the time anymore.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    meatmachinerkfgMouse
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Honestly, I couldn't care less about hive. I disagree with hiding skill values only because I think its better for people to retain trust in shuffle. At least they have something to refer to when a shuffle goes bad, rather than dismissing the entire shuffle system out of hand.

    I'm just really bemused at people laying the blame of their behaviour on it.

    I think that is a false sense of security. That information doesn't change anything for the player. I guess I could say am using a double standard by wanting to hide skill to minimize negative behavior but dismissing the false sense of security.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    You think. Because being able to assess where it went or will go wrong (hilariously bad teams, inaccurate players) is somehow no different from only having the vague notion of shuffle resulting in some horrid games. Or do you have even less faith in hive than I do?
    Handschuh
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Aeglos wrote: »
    You think. Because being able to assess where it went or will go wrong (hilariously bad teams, inaccurate players) is somehow no different from only having the vague notion of shuffle resulting in some horrid games. Or do you have even less faith in hive than I do?

    It is that I don't trust players to make that judgment. In my experience they don't do a very good job of it.

    I was spectating a game on TA last night. Teams were shuffled. Marines had an average team skill of 1216, aliens had an average hive skill of 1062. People complained. Some people said, "Don't worry about it, shuffle sucks." Regardless, another shuffle vote happened and the teams stayed the same. Those same people said, "See, shuffle sucks." In reality there was nothing wrong with shuffle. Shuffle did exactly what it was designed to do. It just had a combination of 16 players that could not be broken into two teams with near equal average team skill. What was the real problem? The small playerbase and large skill gap.

    Then lets say that there was a problem. It could be undervalued players, hilariously bad teams, or any number of problems. The problem doesn't matter. What are the people on the server trying to play a game going to do about it? I can't think of much I can personally do in that situation. I don't think showing hive skill values has much use to players. The game will be bad anyways.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    You think. Because being able to assess where it went or will go wrong (hilariously bad teams, inaccurate players) is somehow no different from only having the vague notion of shuffle resulting in some horrid games. Or do you have even less faith in hive than I do?

    It is that I don't trust players to make that judgment. In my experience they don't do a very good job of it.

    I was spectating a game on TA last night. Teams were shuffled. Marines had an average team skill of 1216, aliens had an average hive skill of 1062. People complained. Some people said, "Don't worry about it, shuffle sucks." Regardless, another shuffle vote happened and the teams stayed the same. Those same people said, "See, shuffle sucks." In reality there was nothing wrong with shuffle. Shuffle did exactly what it was designed to do. It just had a combination of 16 players that could not be broken into two teams with near equal average team skill. What was the real problem? The small playerbase and large skill gap.

    Then lets say that there was a problem. It could be undervalued players, hilariously bad teams, or any number of problems. The problem doesn't matter. What are the people on the server trying to play a game going to do about it? I can't think of much I can personally do in that situation. I don't think showing hive skill values has much use to players. The game will be bad anyways.

    Its not about solving the problem. Its about assessing the problem. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that hive scores are not displayed now. Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever, but the entire point is to get people to trust that shuffle can be right and not be dismissed out right. Like its happening right now as you attested to.

    Also, don't lecture me about the skill gap on servers. I brought it and other issues with a hypothetical perfect skill evaluation up long before you did.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever, but the entire point is to get people to trust that shuffle can be right and not be dismissed out right.

    This is a common misconception I see a lot ingame. It's not that shuffle doesn't work; it's that people doesn't. Meaning they don't play consistently according to their score. I've seen superior teams lose because of utter lack of communication. No shuffle of the world will be able to account for that. Maybe some people have unrealistic expectations.

    Shuffle does work. On average, it produces better games for everybody.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    Nordicmigalski
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    You think. Because being able to assess where it went or will go wrong (hilariously bad teams, inaccurate players) is somehow no different from only having the vague notion of shuffle resulting in some horrid games. Or do you have even less faith in hive than I do?

    It is that I don't trust players to make that judgment. In my experience they don't do a very good job of it.

    I was spectating a game on TA last night. Teams were shuffled. Marines had an average team skill of 1216, aliens had an average hive skill of 1062. People complained. Some people said, "Don't worry about it, shuffle sucks." Regardless, another shuffle vote happened and the teams stayed the same. Those same people said, "See, shuffle sucks." In reality there was nothing wrong with shuffle. Shuffle did exactly what it was designed to do. It just had a combination of 16 players that could not be broken into two teams with near equal average team skill. What was the real problem? The small playerbase and large skill gap.

    Then lets say that there was a problem. It could be undervalued players, hilariously bad teams, or any number of problems. The problem doesn't matter. What are the people on the server trying to play a game going to do about it? I can't think of much I can personally do in that situation. I don't think showing hive skill values has much use to players. The game will be bad anyways.

    Its not about solving the problem. Its about assessing the problem. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that hive scores are not displayed now. Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever, but the entire point is to get people to trust that shuffle can be right and not be dismissed out right. Like its happening right now as you attested to.

    Also, don't lecture me about the skill gap on servers. I brought it and other issues with a hypothetical perfect skill evaluation up long before you did.

    This is a common misconception I see a lot ingame. It's not that shuffle doesn't work; it's that people doesn't. Meaning they don't play consistently according to their score. I've seen superior teams lose because of utter lack of communication. No shuffle of the world will be able to account for that. Maybe some people have unrealistic expectations.

    Shuffle does work. On average, it produces better games for everybody.

    Or you can read what I wrote instead of reading what you want to read.
    NordicHandschuh
  • TinCanTinCan Members Join Date: 2006-12-11 Member: 59010Posts: 365 Advanced user
    Probably been discussed before but I feel the commander's skill has a huge impact on the teams probability to win. Not just fast accurate button presses but actual commanding of players. I have seen strong commanders coax a sub par team to a win many, many times. I am surprised the game does not track commander stats. If it did track I would argue that the commander stats should somehow account for at least 25% of the equation.
    G_Lockmigalski
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited October 2016
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Also, don't lecture me about the skill gap on servers.
    By bringing up skill gaps, I was not intending to lecture you but to point out that the players on that server had misidentified the problem. I do not think you do not understand how the system works. I think you are well aware.
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Its not about solving the problem. Its about assessing the problem. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that hive scores are not displayed now. Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever, but the entire point is to get people to trust that shuffle can be right and not be dismissed out right. Like its happening right now as you attested to.
    You are arguing that if hive skill was displayed in full in a completely transparent way, people would be able to assess the reason why shuffle didn't work, which would lead to them trusting the system more. Is that correct?

    TinCan wrote: »
    Probably been discussed before but I feel the commander's skill has a huge impact on the teams probability to win. Not just fast accurate button presses but actual commanding of players. I have seen strong commanders coax a sub par team to a win many, many times. I am surprised the game does not track commander stats. If it did track I would argue that the commander stats should somehow account for at least 25% of the equation.
    It is a two part problem. How do we find a commanders skill when there are sometimes multiple commanders for one team in a match? Even if a skill value could be found, and I think it probably could, how would you use it?

    The game is not set up in a way to really use this information without significant changes. You can't balance around the commanders who started the game because the commander can change multiple times mid game. The game is not set up to force someone to be in the chair the whole game.

    Now if the game was set up with matchmaking instead of community servers, like Depth or Evolve, this would not be a problem.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    You think. Because being able to assess where it went or will go wrong (hilariously bad teams, inaccurate players) is somehow no different from only having the vague notion of shuffle resulting in some horrid games. Or do you have even less faith in hive than I do?

    It is that I don't trust players to make that judgment. In my experience they don't do a very good job of it.

    I was spectating a game on TA last night. Teams were shuffled. Marines had an average team skill of 1216, aliens had an average hive skill of 1062. People complained. Some people said, "Don't worry about it, shuffle sucks." Regardless, another shuffle vote happened and the teams stayed the same. Those same people said, "See, shuffle sucks." In reality there was nothing wrong with shuffle. Shuffle did exactly what it was designed to do. It just had a combination of 16 players that could not be broken into two teams with near equal average team skill. What was the real problem? The small playerbase and large skill gap.

    Then lets say that there was a problem. It could be undervalued players, hilariously bad teams, or any number of problems. The problem doesn't matter. What are the people on the server trying to play a game going to do about it? I can't think of much I can personally do in that situation. I don't think showing hive skill values has much use to players. The game will be bad anyways.

    Its not about solving the problem. Its about assessing the problem. You are conveniently ignoring the fact that hive scores are not displayed now. Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever, but the entire point is to get people to trust that shuffle can be right and not be dismissed out right. Like its happening right now as you attested to.

    Also, don't lecture me about the skill gap on servers. I brought it and other issues with a hypothetical perfect skill evaluation up long before you did.

    This is a common misconception I see a lot ingame. It's not that shuffle doesn't work; it's that people doesn't. Meaning they don't play consistently according to their score. I've seen superior teams lose because of utter lack of communication. No shuffle of the world will be able to account for that. Maybe some people have unrealistic expectations.

    Shuffle does work. On average, it produces better games for everybody.

    Or you can read what I wrote instead of reading what you want to read.

    I don't really know what there is to read into "Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason."
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    I don't really know what there is to read into "Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason."
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever,

    @Nordic More or less. The point is to let them see that it is limited, not broken.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    I don't really know what there is to read into "Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason."
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever,

    This is exactly what I mean, though. This is not an issue with shuffle not working. It's players not living up to their average/playing inconsistently. I know somebody is going to say that shuffle should account for that. I don't know about the should (tending towards it shouldn't), but I don't think it even could. Something like that isn't feasible if you aren't google.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • AeglosAeglos Members Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Posts: 644 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    I don't really know what there is to read into "Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason."
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Sometimes shuffle just doesn't work for whatever reason. KDR settings, poor player pool, smurfs, whatever,

    This is exactly what I mean, though. This is not an issue with shuffle not working. It's players not living up to their average/playing inconsistently. I know somebody is going to say that shuffle should account for that. I don't know about the should (tending towards it shouldn't), but I don't think it even could. Something like that isn't feasible if you aren't google.

    Yes, it fits right in "whatever". I can't possibly be giving an exhaustive list. You don't even need players having bad games/days, just have your best player go commander or gorge in an average pub server. See what happens.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    More or less. The point is to let them see that it is limited, not broken.

    Let me explain why I don't think transparency can lead to trust of the system.
    • Most players do not care or try to understand the system. They simply judge it by its results.
    • Some players do try to understand the system and understand it poorly. They think of it as a system based on XP and points as opposed to the statistics and learning.
    • To most players, the hive skill information given during a round is completely arbitrary.

    I am not saying players can not understand the skill system, but that it is not easy to understand, especially if all you see are strange numbers from 0 to 5000.

    I argue that visible hive skill values makes the small errors more visible, so they seem more prevalent than they really are, which decreases trust in the system.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    IronHorse
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    You could just have a little tooltip that gives a basic enough explanation on how the hive system works.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


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