remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.
People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.
Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.
People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.
This is true... However, it is far less punishing pushing a button via muscle memory that does nothing than accidently pushing a button with potential disastrous consequences, hence the reason why this thread was created.
Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.
People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.
If you can't recall, maybe it was something different?
I still don't see why such accidental beacons should be happening (seriously, click once to hotkey, click another time to research phase and you never touch it again unless you want to beacon), but this is the kind of low effort high pay off that should be pursued as per your roadmap. If I misclick 'S' due to habit, I can immediately click 'C' or whatever new key assigned to make up for it. However, if I hit 'S' and it beacons, that's it.
Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.
People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.
If you can't recall, maybe it was something different?
I still don't see why such accidental beacons should be happening (seriously, click once to hotkey, click another time to research phase and you never touch it again unless you want to beacon), but this is the kind of low effort high pay off that should be pursued as per your roadmap. If I misclick 'S' due to habit, I can immediately click 'C' or whatever new key assigned to make up for it. However, if I hit 'S' and it beacons, that's it.
I was just about to say "C" key would be a good bind for beacon, to be honest I think none of the keys should be bound to the default movement binds.
Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.
People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.
If you can't recall, maybe it was something different?
It very well may have been. I was actually hoping someone else would remember!
Anyways I'll add a note about this to the "Commander Asprin" trello card.
Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:57:32 PM
Added select nearest Observatory commander panel button under the Assist Players tab replacing scan
Date: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:58:06 PM
Moved select observatory to V, scan back to F
Date: Monday, June 30, 2014 1:24:47 AM
Reverted select nearest obs since no one wants it
That's what we tried before.
That has nothing to do with beacon spot!?
Correct! But it does have to do with muscle memory. That change would have made it a lot easier to beacon when needed (because you could just click the location you want to beacon and have it select nearest obs), but it added an additional button press to execute a scan (since it would need to select the obs first). I still think this idea would be worth it, but...
This is the issue with changing stuff in the commander interface, people don't like needing to relearn their muscle memory. If we were to change the spot beacon was on, it would result in a lot of angry people who missed the clutch beacons because they were trying to use the old hotkey. We need to be careful about that.
Because of how the commander interface is coded I'm not sure how difficult it would be to maintain a "legacy" controls option... although that would probably be ideal.
Correct! But it does have to do with muscle memory. That change would have made it a lot easier to beacon when needed (because you could just click the location you want to beacon and have it select nearest obs), but it added an additional button press to execute a scan (since it would need to select the obs first). I still think this idea would be worth it, but...
This is the issue with changing stuff in the commander interface, people don't like needing to relearn their muscle memory. If we were to change the spot beacon was on, it would result in a lot of angry people who missed the clutch beacons because they were trying to use the old hotkey. We need to be careful about that.
Because of how the commander interface is coded I'm not sure how difficult it would be to maintain a "legacy" controls option... although that would probably be ideal.
Well two buttons for a scan sucks, yes. Not because muscle memory but because it takes longer to scan. Also while you believe it is easier to beacon by pressing the key on the correct location on the map, imo it is worse because you would need to move your camera first. You have more control over hotkeyed observatories and it is faster too.
These points are irrelevant when debating the usefulness of a change in the grid spot for the beacon though. Here it is really ONLY about muscle memory.
And let's be fair here: Muscle memory was not a problem in many other changes you made to the game, why is it a problem here? It seems arbitrary.
Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:57:32 PM
Added select nearest Observatory commander panel button under the Assist Players tab replacing scan
Date: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:58:06 PM
Moved select observatory to V, scan back to F
Date: Monday, June 30, 2014 1:24:47 AM
Reverted select nearest obs since no one wants it
That's what we tried before.
That has nothing to do with beacon spot!?
Correct! But it does have to do with muscle memory. That change would have made it a lot easier to beacon when needed (because you could just click the location you want to beacon and have it select nearest obs), but it added an additional button press to execute a scan (since it would need to select the obs first). I still think this idea would be worth it, but...
This is the issue with changing stuff in the commander interface, people don't like needing to relearn their muscle memory. If we were to change the spot beacon was on, it would result in a lot of angry people who missed the clutch beacons because they were trying to use the old hotkey. We need to be careful about that.
Because of how the commander interface is coded I'm not sure how difficult it would be to maintain a "legacy" controls option... although that would probably be ideal.
No. Just no. It is a lot more difficult to beacon with that change. Most of us already hotkey our obs. Its as simple as "number key", "S". Not "Click on map", "E", "V", "S". And isn't "V" recycle? I wouldn't put anything there if I could help it.
Edit - Did I miss something? Why is everyone insisting that you select the obs to scan? Its right there with the ammo and meds.
I believe the problem is that when people click on the obs to drop it or to research phase tech, the commander is still selected on the obs in their commander menu. So when they go to drop a med or something, they beacon by mistake. Yes, you don't need to click on the obs to scan, hopefully people find where that additional scan option is on the commander menu. I think commanders could learn to push a different button to beacon pretty quickly even if it took them an extra second at first.
If you don't want to move the position of the beacon to a different key, there needs to be some change after you click on the obs. The change would have to stop the commander from being still on their observatory menu when they go to med and end up with a mistake beacon.
Beacons aren't that frequent in the game, some rounds end without a single one.
I'm quite positive that the muscle memory mentioned by @remi is not that settled (and if this IS a real counter-argument, I name you a hypocrite )
Changing it from S to F would be sufficient to decrease the chance of unintented beacons... also without virtually any work.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Way back when, when I got a request to add that, it was a long time ago, but I remember the world ending when it was changed during PT. The same goes to whatever you do in the commander interface, you have to be really careful with what you do.
Also @remi adding in legacy controls would be incredibly easy, it's just a table, and I am pretty sue that there is already something doing that already in some sort of way somewhere.
If there's one thing that would be worth forcing on the community, it's moving beacon to X or F. (Personally, I think I prefer F. It's farther away from phase tech.)
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited September 2016
Playing 6 pubroundsrounds this weekend = 3 failbeacons..
Changing keys would help, or make it configurable.. don't care as long as something decent will be done.
Like that It's really getting harder to keep any positive thought about the devs.
@remi don't think one statement is enough in order to ignore this issue.
Give up hope. Move on with your lives. Enjoy NS2 as it is. If the dev's haven't done it by now, it probably won't happen.
Well, cost vs return is rather high regarding this change...
Yesterday I was commanding on 8bit, we were doing great, having 3 serious engagements on the map so I was dropping meds like crazy.
I swear on all that is holy and sacred that I was in the Drop Menu (E key), all I did was hover around the map and "spam" S+Click.
In the middle of all this, I triggered a beacon somehow, even though no obs was selected.
This happens to me like 1 out of 5 times when im commanding marines, but only when I'm dropping meds in quick succession.
Yet again, I SWEAR no obs is selected when this happens to me.
The devs clearly know about it. They have even commented in the thread. Clearly those interested in this subject can't create enough of an uproar to get them to do something about it. It has been a year already. If it was going to happen it would have probably happened already. Prove me wrong.
Edit: If you guys want to really turn up the heat and have some fun with it, have as many people as possible ping Ironhorse about this on discord at least once a week.
YOUR WELCOME IRONHORSE.
Well, the objections raised by @remi make no sense. Beacon is not a feature comms use regularly. I dont think anyone has muscle-memory for the beacon hotkey, since that implies frequent usage.
If they are not interested in fixing this, im calling the responsible devs morons.
HAH, TAKE THAT!
EDIT:
To summarize: what is worse?
Having to re-learn ONE hotkey / make an effort to click on it on the UI
or
Having a feature that can wreck whole games by accidentally triggering (and in my case REALLY accidentally, since im not selecting any obs)
Comments
People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.
This is true... However, it is far less punishing pushing a button via muscle memory that does nothing than accidently pushing a button with potential disastrous consequences, hence the reason why this thread was created.
If you can't recall, maybe it was something different?
I still don't see why such accidental beacons should be happening (seriously, click once to hotkey, click another time to research phase and you never touch it again unless you want to beacon), but this is the kind of low effort high pay off that should be pursued as per your roadmap. If I misclick 'S' due to habit, I can immediately click 'C' or whatever new key assigned to make up for it. However, if I hit 'S' and it beacons, that's it.
I was just about to say "C" key would be a good bind for beacon, to be honest I think none of the keys should be bound to the default movement binds.
Anyways I'll add a note about this to the "Commander Asprin" trello card.
That's what we tried before.
That has nothing to do with beacon spot!?
Correct! But it does have to do with muscle memory. That change would have made it a lot easier to beacon when needed (because you could just click the location you want to beacon and have it select nearest obs), but it added an additional button press to execute a scan (since it would need to select the obs first). I still think this idea would be worth it, but...
This is the issue with changing stuff in the commander interface, people don't like needing to relearn their muscle memory. If we were to change the spot beacon was on, it would result in a lot of angry people who missed the clutch beacons because they were trying to use the old hotkey. We need to be careful about that.
Because of how the commander interface is coded I'm not sure how difficult it would be to maintain a "legacy" controls option... although that would probably be ideal.
Well two buttons for a scan sucks, yes. Not because muscle memory but because it takes longer to scan. Also while you believe it is easier to beacon by pressing the key on the correct location on the map, imo it is worse because you would need to move your camera first. You have more control over hotkeyed observatories and it is faster too.
These points are irrelevant when debating the usefulness of a change in the grid spot for the beacon though. Here it is really ONLY about muscle memory.
And let's be fair here: Muscle memory was not a problem in many other changes you made to the game, why is it a problem here? It seems arbitrary.
No. Just no. It is a lot more difficult to beacon with that change. Most of us already hotkey our obs. Its as simple as "number key", "S". Not "Click on map", "E", "V", "S". And isn't "V" recycle? I wouldn't put anything there if I could help it.
Edit - Did I miss something? Why is everyone insisting that you select the obs to scan? Its right there with the ammo and meds.
If you don't want to move the position of the beacon to a different key, there needs to be some change after you click on the obs. The change would have to stop the commander from being still on their observatory menu when they go to med and end up with a mistake beacon.
I'm quite positive that the muscle memory mentioned by @remi is not that settled (and if this IS a real counter-argument, I name you a hypocrite
Changing it from S to F would be sufficient to decrease the chance of unintented beacons... also without virtually any work.
Also @remi adding in legacy controls would be incredibly easy, it's just a table, and I am pretty sue that there is already something doing that already in some sort of way somewhere.
So you should really do something about it...
11.09.:playing 1hour - witnessing 2 failbeacons by different (decent) commanders
Changing keys would help, or make it configurable.. don't care as long as something decent will be done.
Like that It's really getting harder to keep any positive thought about the devs.
@remi don't think one statement is enough in order to ignore this issue.
[*]Review Commander keybinds for any potential improvements (both)
[*]Accidental Beacons
@devs thanks for giving this long-standing problem some consideration
Another year has gone by and still... nothing was done
Well, cost vs return is rather high regarding this change...
Yesterday I was commanding on 8bit, we were doing great, having 3 serious engagements on the map so I was dropping meds like crazy.
I swear on all that is holy and sacred that I was in the Drop Menu (E key), all I did was hover around the map and "spam" S+Click.
In the middle of all this, I triggered a beacon somehow, even though no obs was selected.
This happens to me like 1 out of 5 times when im commanding marines, but only when I'm dropping meds in quick succession.
Yet again, I SWEAR no obs is selected when this happens to me.
It's like democracy... it needs to hurt in order for people to do something about it... and since we have a devteam.... it shouldn't be that hard.
Edit: If you guys want to really turn up the heat and have some fun with it, have as many people as possible ping Ironhorse about this on discord at least once a week.
YOUR WELCOME IRONHORSE.
If they are not interested in fixing this, im calling the responsible devs morons.
HAH, TAKE THAT!
EDIT:
To summarize: what is worse?
Having to re-learn ONE hotkey / make an effort to click on it on the UI
or
Having a feature that can wreck whole games by accidentally triggering (and in my case REALLY accidentally, since im not selecting any obs)
Sounds good, requires shitton of work :P