Changing beacon grid spot on observatory to guard against accidental beacons

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  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,689 admin
    Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.

    People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
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  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    OK well it's UWE's call of course. Just know that you're going to have commanders making the mistake and having bad games because of it.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    @remi I never knew community outcry affected your decisions...
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    The_Welsh_WizardYojimbo
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,247 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    remi wrote: »
    Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.

    People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.

    This is true... However, it is far less punishing pushing a button via muscle memory that does nothing than accidently pushing a button with potential disastrous consequences, hence the reason why this thread was created.
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
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  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 618 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.

    People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.

    If you can't recall, maybe it was something different?

    I still don't see why such accidental beacons should be happening (seriously, click once to hotkey, click another time to research phase and you never touch it again unless you want to beacon), but this is the kind of low effort high pay off that should be pursued as per your roadmap. If I misclick 'S' due to habit, I can immediately click 'C' or whatever new key assigned to make up for it. However, if I hit 'S' and it beacons, that's it.
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,247 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    remi wrote: »
    Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.

    People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.

    If you can't recall, maybe it was something different?

    I still don't see why such accidental beacons should be happening (seriously, click once to hotkey, click another time to research phase and you never touch it again unless you want to beacon), but this is the kind of low effort high pay off that should be pursued as per your roadmap. If I misclick 'S' due to habit, I can immediately click 'C' or whatever new key assigned to make up for it. However, if I hit 'S' and it beacons, that's it.

    I was just about to say "C" key would be a good bind for beacon, to be honest I think none of the keys should be bound to the default movement binds.
    Today's rookies are tomorrow's vets.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

    George Carlin.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,689 admin
    Aeglos wrote: »
    remi wrote: »
    Something was tried with beacon placement by the CDT. I don't remember what it was exactly, all I remember is that it ended up getting reverted due to community outcry.

    People don't like when the muscle memory they've developed requires reprogramming.

    If you can't recall, maybe it was something different?
    It very well may have been. I was actually hoping someone else would remember! :smiley:

    Anyways I'll add a note about this to the "Commander Asprin" trello card.

    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
    I have way too many names.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,689 admin
    @SamusDroid was nice enough to dig this up:
    Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:57:32 PM
    Added select nearest Observatory commander panel button under the Assist Players tab replacing scan

    Date: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:58:06 PM
    Moved select observatory to V, scan back to F

    Date: Monday, June 30, 2014 1:24:47 AM
    Reverted select nearest obs since no one wants it

    That's what we tried before.
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
    I have way too many names.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 771 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    @SamusDroid was nice enough to dig this up:
    Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:57:32 PM
    Added select nearest Observatory commander panel button under the Assist Players tab replacing scan

    Date: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:58:06 PM
    Moved select observatory to V, scan back to F

    Date: Monday, June 30, 2014 1:24:47 AM
    Reverted select nearest obs since no one wants it

    That's what we tried before.

    That has nothing to do with beacon spot!?
    ydysnb
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,689 admin
    edited August 2016
    remi wrote: »
    @SamusDroid was nice enough to dig this up:
    Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:57:32 PM
    Added select nearest Observatory commander panel button under the Assist Players tab replacing scan

    Date: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:58:06 PM
    Moved select observatory to V, scan back to F

    Date: Monday, June 30, 2014 1:24:47 AM
    Reverted select nearest obs since no one wants it

    That's what we tried before.

    That has nothing to do with beacon spot!?

    Correct! But it does have to do with muscle memory. That change would have made it a lot easier to beacon when needed (because you could just click the location you want to beacon and have it select nearest obs), but it added an additional button press to execute a scan (since it would need to select the obs first). I still think this idea would be worth it, but...

    This is the issue with changing stuff in the commander interface, people don't like needing to relearn their muscle memory. If we were to change the spot beacon was on, it would result in a lot of angry people who missed the clutch beacons because they were trying to use the old hotkey. We need to be careful about that.

    Because of how the commander interface is coded I'm not sure how difficult it would be to maintain a "legacy" controls option... although that would probably be ideal.
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
    I have way too many names.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 771 Advanced user
    remi wrote: »
    Correct! But it does have to do with muscle memory. That change would have made it a lot easier to beacon when needed (because you could just click the location you want to beacon and have it select nearest obs), but it added an additional button press to execute a scan (since it would need to select the obs first). I still think this idea would be worth it, but...

    This is the issue with changing stuff in the commander interface, people don't like needing to relearn their muscle memory. If we were to change the spot beacon was on, it would result in a lot of angry people who missed the clutch beacons because they were trying to use the old hotkey. We need to be careful about that.

    Because of how the commander interface is coded I'm not sure how difficult it would be to maintain a "legacy" controls option... although that would probably be ideal.

    Well two buttons for a scan sucks, yes. Not because muscle memory but because it takes longer to scan. Also while you believe it is easier to beacon by pressing the key on the correct location on the map, imo it is worse because you would need to move your camera first. You have more control over hotkeyed observatories and it is faster too.

    These points are irrelevant when debating the usefulness of a change in the grid spot for the beacon though. Here it is really ONLY about muscle memory.

    And let's be fair here: Muscle memory was not a problem in many other changes you made to the game, why is it a problem here? It seems arbitrary.
    .trixX.remi
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 618 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    remi wrote: »
    remi wrote: »
    @SamusDroid was nice enough to dig this up:
    Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:57:32 PM
    Added select nearest Observatory commander panel button under the Assist Players tab replacing scan

    Date: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:58:06 PM
    Moved select observatory to V, scan back to F

    Date: Monday, June 30, 2014 1:24:47 AM
    Reverted select nearest obs since no one wants it

    That's what we tried before.

    That has nothing to do with beacon spot!?

    Correct! But it does have to do with muscle memory. That change would have made it a lot easier to beacon when needed (because you could just click the location you want to beacon and have it select nearest obs), but it added an additional button press to execute a scan (since it would need to select the obs first). I still think this idea would be worth it, but...

    This is the issue with changing stuff in the commander interface, people don't like needing to relearn their muscle memory. If we were to change the spot beacon was on, it would result in a lot of angry people who missed the clutch beacons because they were trying to use the old hotkey. We need to be careful about that.

    Because of how the commander interface is coded I'm not sure how difficult it would be to maintain a "legacy" controls option... although that would probably be ideal.

    No. Just no. It is a lot more difficult to beacon with that change. Most of us already hotkey our obs. Its as simple as "number key", "S". Not "Click on map", "E", "V", "S". And isn't "V" recycle? I wouldn't put anything there if I could help it.

    Edit - Did I miss something? Why is everyone insisting that you select the obs to scan? Its right there with the ammo and meds.
    Vetinari
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    I believe the problem is that when people click on the obs to drop it or to research phase tech, the commander is still selected on the obs in their commander menu. So when they go to drop a med or something, they beacon by mistake. Yes, you don't need to click on the obs to scan, hopefully people find where that additional scan option is on the commander menu. I think commanders could learn to push a different button to beacon pretty quickly even if it took them an extra second at first.

    If you don't want to move the position of the beacon to a different key, there needs to be some change after you click on the obs. The change would have to stop the commander from being still on their observatory menu when they go to med and end up with a mistake beacon.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Beacons aren't that frequent in the game, some rounds end without a single one.
    I'm quite positive that the muscle memory mentioned by @remi is not that settled (and if this IS a real counter-argument, I name you a hypocrite :D)
    Changing it from S to F would be sufficient to decrease the chance of unintented beacons... also without virtually any work.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,155 mod
    Way back when, when I got a request to add that, it was a long time ago, but I remember the world ending when it was changed during PT. The same goes to whatever you do in the commander interface, you have to be really careful with what you do.

    Also @remi adding in legacy controls would be incredibly easy, it's just a table, and I am pretty sue that there is already something doing that already in some sort of way somewhere.
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    remi
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    Reminding that I saw yesterday and today each day five beacons which screwed the game up -_-

    So you should really do something about it...

    11.09.:playing 1hour - witnessing 2 failbeacons by different (decent) commanders
    Post edited by Handschuh on
    radionautydy
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,465 Advanced user
    If there's one thing that would be worth forcing on the community, it's moving beacon to X or F. (Personally, I think I prefer F. It's farther away from phase tech.)
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    .trixX.radionautydy
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    Playing 6 pubroundsrounds this weekend = 3 failbeacons..
    Changing keys would help, or make it configurable.. don't care as long as something decent will be done.

    Like that It's really getting harder to keep any positive thought about the devs.

    @remi don't think one statement is enough in order to ignore this issue.
  • radionautradionaut california Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181192Members, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Gold Posts: 114 Advanced user
    worth noting that it's on the To Do list: https://trello.com/b/uFv64kH6/ns2-development-team

    [*]Review Commander keybinds for any potential improvements (both)
    [*]Accidental Beacons

    @devs thanks for giving this long-standing problem some consideration
    HPAQ6it.png
  • radionautradionaut california Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181192Members, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Gold Posts: 114 Advanced user
    any update on this? accidental beacons are still a thing, unfortunately.
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    The_Welsh_Wizard.trixX.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    radionaut wrote: »
    @devs thanks for giving this long-standing problem some consideration
    I think that would be the correct correction for your thanks...

    Another year has gone by and still... nothing was done

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,754 Advanced user
    Give up hope. Move on with your lives. Enjoy NS2 as it is. If the dev's haven't done it by now, it probably won't happen.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Keats
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    Nordic wrote: »
    Give up hope. Move on with your lives. Enjoy NS2 as it is. If the dev's haven't done it by now, it probably won't happen.

    Well, cost vs return is rather high regarding this change...

    Yesterday I was commanding on 8bit, we were doing great, having 3 serious engagements on the map so I was dropping meds like crazy.
    I swear on all that is holy and sacred that I was in the Drop Menu (E key), all I did was hover around the map and "spam" S+Click.
    In the middle of all this, I triggered a beacon somehow, even though no obs was selected.

    This happens to me like 1 out of 5 times when im commanding marines, but only when I'm dropping meds in quick succession.
    Yet again, I SWEAR no obs is selected when this happens to me.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    Handschuh
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 387 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Give up hope. Move on with your lives. Enjoy NS2 as it is. If the dev's haven't done it by now, it probably won't happen.

    It's like democracy... it needs to hurt in order for people to do something about it... and since we have a devteam.... it shouldn't be that hard.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,754 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    The devs clearly know about it. They have even commented in the thread. Clearly those interested in this subject can't create enough of an uproar to get them to do something about it. It has been a year already. If it was going to happen it would have probably happened already. Prove me wrong. :smile:


    Edit: If you guys want to really turn up the heat and have some fun with it, have as many people as possible ping Ironhorse about this on discord at least once a week.
    YOUR WELCOME IRONHORSE.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    .trixX.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    Well, the objections raised by @remi make no sense. Beacon is not a feature comms use regularly. I dont think anyone has muscle-memory for the beacon hotkey, since that implies frequent usage.

    If they are not interested in fixing this, im calling the responsible devs morons.
    HAH, TAKE THAT! :trollface:

    EDIT:
    To summarize: what is worse?
    Having to re-learn ONE hotkey / make an effort to click on it on the UI
    or
    Having a feature that can wreck whole games by accidentally triggering (and in my case REALLY accidentally, since im not selecting any obs)
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    Handschuh
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 771 Advanced user
    Why not just implement that you can customize the comm interface. Just make every button moveable per drag and drop or something.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 856 Advanced user
    Why not just implement that you can customize the comm interface. Just make every button moveable per drag and drop or something.

    Sounds good, requires shitton of work :P
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    Vetinari
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