@RevanCorana haven't read much of this thread but phantom was split and silence moved to shift to eliminate celerity+silence as a combo which is insanely powerful (speed makes skulks much more deadly than aura does). Also, please don't call people 'retards' and then report posts by other people and add 'do your job mods' to them, it's not really acceptable.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
On the topic of Silence:
My problem with silence is how marines counter have to counter it. Long story short, A2 is the counter, which I can elaborate on if needed. The counter to celerity is slightly more thoughtful macro movement, and better aiming, whereas carapace is better aiming (depending on how well the skulk can dodge, one will be better than the other).
Right now, shift hive is the most common hive, by more than 2/3rds. With silence being on the shift hive, the aliens have, early game, silence. To counter this, marines need to go A2, or just outright lose some combats, because they cant even react in time, nor have the money to throw after obs and scans, to counteract it.
Celerity + silence isn't a problem, as it is two upgrades - which means it WILL be mid/late game, where marines HAVE A2, where the marines HAVE the money to scan, and the same goes for Celerity + phantom, though I dont understand how it could be stronger than silence. And if the marines don't have A2 or the money to scan, they are already in trouble because the commander is inexperienced, or they simply have lost the resource game, at which point any advantage will continue to twist the neck of the marines.
I believe, that silence going away from the shift hive, wont impact the popularity of it as a starter severely, due to echo, and celerity. I would like to see it moved to the shade hive. The shade hive has no "survivability" upgrade, just a bunch of trickery, which, if the aliens dont get a second hive, makes the fade so squishy, that its hard to do anything at all, and an outright loss midgame anyway, as fades wont have survivability upgrades such as celerity, carapace or regeneration, due to the fact they cant get the 2nd hive before they pop, and if you get the 2nd hive fast, you cant get metabolise at a good timing for the fades, which leaves the fades very weak again - its a loss/loss going shade hive first when it comes to fades. It isnt viable.
The super powerful silence COULD alterate this, but would still not help the fades out greatly. Silence has, for as long as I can remember been a weak first hive, but a VERY strong 2nd hive, due to the counter of arcs, and abilities like silence. Switching Focus with Crush could be another factor to help the fades, to try and keep the game lower on res, thus weakening the marines and, in comparison, strengthening the fade (as the marines arent as strong).
Now I've said what I see as the problem, what I would like to see, but not what I would love to see. I would love to see silence removed from the game. It's a fustrating element annoying marines, as they have to be ungodly aware constantly (which isn't fair to casual players - they should enjoy the game, as they are here to do), forcing marines into only 1 viable techpath, disallowing for diversity in games, which makes for a boring, stale meta. If a player is to be silent at any other point in the game, except with said silence, you have a heavy speed penalty. Some say that since you dont take celerity this is already the case though, but I find that odd - sneaking is very powerful, so let is scale with skill, and let it show a weakness - you gain a HUGE advantage not making a sound - only fair you should lose another, when so much of the game revolves around sound.
Now there is a new problem - what to replace it with. After long discussions, discussing several elements, I cannot for the life of me, find out who said it, but it went something like this:
1)Remove Silence
2)Split adrenalin into Increased max energy, and increased energy recovery, both stronger than their part in adrenalin.
Max energy and increased recovery would be aimed at lifeforms like fades and gorges, to give the option for more personal styles.
And just to reiterate:
3) Switch Focus and Crush
I would love to hear about other options to silence, whether it be a new ability, as above, or something entirely different!
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I'd rather see Motion Tracking return rather than the removal of Silence. Focus needs to stay on Shade hive or else the Shade hive will continue being irrelevant, as well as moving Focus to the crag hive would be a straight nerf to lifeforms such as the Fade due to the lack of having damage and survivability to fight in the late game.
I agree that Adrenaline should be buffed since it was much better in NS1.
Just to reiterate, Silence is at it's strongest when Marines are playing their worst. A lot of the old NS1 era things coming back means it is also bringing back gameplay styles that newer or primarily ns2 players never had to learn to use or fight against, so expect some growing pains as the community adjusts to them.
I agree with your assessment. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion. As of right now, there is just no point in going anything but shift hive straight away - celerity + silence + echo is just too strong. (Heck, even Adrenaline is actually rather strong. It's just that nobody ever uses it because celerity is even stronger.)
I was actually going to make a thread about chamber upgrades one of these days, but meh...
I also rather like being an über skulk of death with silence
It might also be worth considering if we can't replace celerity somehow. I mean is there ever anyone who does not take celerity, except for defensive gorges? (Edit: Except for silence skulks now that there's that, think higher lifeforms) It's so crucial to alien play that it makes the upgrade system rather one dimensional. (You HAVE to go shift hive first or at the very least second, and 80% of your team WILL take celerity, the rest being the odd skulk that likes silence.)
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
Motion Tracking isnt a real viable option with the maps bigger than in ns1... it takes far longer in ns2 to move from one side of the map to the other..
It's a bit sad that people start talking about Cel/Silence instead of complaining to make finally the smaller skulkchange or hp bar..
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2016
Considering how the forums had to be rolled back, I am reinstating my opinion that Drifter and Structure upgrades should be separated from Hive types to lessen the importance of choosing a Shift Hive for a start. Seeing how the early game use of Enzyme Cloud and Echo cannot be understated.
With the possibility of structure upgrades being unlocked through maturation like the whip's bombard ability.
Edit: Just realized I typed the crag hive drifter ability instead of the shift one
Considering how the forums had to be rolled back, I am reinstating my opinion that Drifter and Structure upgrades should be separated from Hive types to lessen the importance of choosing a Shift Hive for a start. Seeing how the early game use of mucous membrane and echo cannot be understated.
With the possibility of structure upgrades being unlocked through maturation like the whip's bombard ability.
I actually quite like this. The idea behind having it split up like this was that the aliens could choose how they wanted to play. Do we hit fast? Hard? Or quietly? Sadly, the game's evolution means that this doesn't really happen in terms of the support structures and drifter abilities. I'm in favor of at LEAST unhooking structure abilities from their hive-types.
Drifter abilities... eh... maybe... they're still kinda unique though... especially hallucination. Not sure I'd want all 3 accessible at once.
Structure abilities on the other hand are pretty tame: ink you only ever really see super late game if khamm is screwing around, or they went shade hive with the express purpose of countering an arc attack. Heal wave is hard to even notice when it's working, and echoing out structures feels like it should just be normal.
Anyways, that's just my ideas. No guarantees, but I'll certainly mention it to the others.
My problem with silence is how marines counter have to counter it. Long story short, A2 is the counter, which I can elaborate on if needed. The counter to celerity is slightly more thoughtful macro movement, and better aiming, whereas carapace is better aiming (depending on how well the skulk can dodge, one will be better than the other).
One could make the argument that the counter to silence is checking behind you often and sticking with teammates.
You could also argue that a2 is the only counter to shift and crag hives if you wanted.
I can pretty much guarantee that if silence gets removed I'll stop playing altogether. It was already bad enough before having to wait for the 3rd hive in 90% of games before getting it.
Right now silence is the only way to get the drop on high skill players. They constantly check behind themselves and are usually positioned perfectly so shift and crag are literally useless against them..
And since they can usually drop 5-6 skulks with mind numbing ease you can't even rely on teamwork. (and if they get comm support it's even easier for them)
They need to make it easier for casual/rookie players, not easier for high skill players to dominate.
@Bicsum I would recommend you remove the rookies only server from the stats. Here are the same stats but from TTO 18 and 22 only:
Link to the stats (12 or more players, version 301 or newer)
That makes it look a bit more even. Shift is still the most common choice though being first hive 89% of the time in the stats above.
If I remember correctly global stats had shift hive at 55% alien win rates, with 51% for crag and shade. I should double check but I don't need to for my point.
Win rates by hive type are a difficult statistic to work with. Aliens typically have a higher win rate. Because aliens play shift hive >75% of games, is the shift hive win rate overstated? There are a lot of other variables that are not so visible in this graph.
You're right, of course. You would need to have the same players play every possible tech path combination (meaning every first AND second hive variation) for 100 matches to get a proper idea on balance, but the question still remains as to why shift hive is chosen >75% of games and I think it will always fall back on celerity.
Celerity increases your speed -> higher speed means doing things in less time -> time is the most important resource in this game.
However, something I've observed with (public) shade hive first is that the aliens:
a) trust in cloak and die in situations, where they wouldn't have, if they didn't have cloak.
b) play way more passively by waiting for marines to ambush
, which kind of feels like the aliens would be better off without any upgrades.
The only problem is the lategame. Give it something for the lategame and it'd be an excellent hive. No need to do anything drastic like making a complete rework.
Aura is the single best lategame trait. I'm not sure what you're talking about lol.
Can you elaborate as to why you think so? The only (marginal) usefulness I've found with Aura in the late game is that it helps you spot marines trying to get a sneaky gate up.
Sure.
It does a few things.
1. It gives you almost complete map awareness if the rest of your team also communicates marine locations. This allows you to call hits, picks, and crushes much easier.
2. It's the anti-lifeform trap and or pinch.
Most importantly:
3. The hardest thing about late game is engaging since the marines are tech'd to a level where your margin for error is much lower if you want to win the engagement. Aura basically auto-synchronizes your targets during attacks granted the higher lifeforms aren't stupid.
To me, the strongest combination is still Crag-Shade hive in either order. Once aliens understand how to engage properly, celerity really only gets you to where you are going faster... nothing else. Aura/regen takes an extra second to get there but is a much more effective pairing for pre, during, and post engagement.
Especially this post makes me wonder if I'm wrong concerning celerity being an essential, or if the information is outdated.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2016
Celerity is great - but not essential. I'd say the infomation isnt outdated, and this is why:
Celerity and carapace, the two main survivability upgrades for the aliens, both demand more from the marines, but the demand is different.
Tracking a skulk with celerity is harder than one without celerity. And if the alien knows how to dodge, the usefulness of celerity rises to a unique hight - The more skilled the skulk, the better celerity can be exploited.
Tracking a skulk with carapace isnt harder than tracking one without, but it requires you to track it for a longer amount of time. If the aliens isnt as skilled in dodging, this is the stronger upgrade. Especially if group fights, when the extra life is multiplied, the aliens can quickly reach a point where they demand an accuracy no players can live up to.*
Its no secret that Titus were heavily based on teamwork and their performance as a group. With carapace being great for groupfights in ways celerity isn't, I am not surprised as to Joshhh having a high regard of carapace. On top of this, due to their use of gorge and tunnels as cysting in maps like summit, they could get away with going crag hive, into 3 shells, into two harvesters, without buying drifters or cysts. 0|0 marines against carapace skulks is a real nightmare, especially agaisnt groups of skulks, which is how titus often defended their naturals.
Celeritys ability to get around the map faster is minuscule - around 2 units of ingame speed faster for skulks, with 3 for fades if i recall correctly, which is both less than a 20% increase. I have a theory that shift hive/celerity is often chosen above crag hive/carapace (despite how carapace might be better for this group of players), is that celerity FEELS great, while carapace doesn't change your feel, but more the feel of the marines.
I will also repeat what I learned from Wob: Each upgrade entails its own playstyle. If waiting by a corner for a marine to come closer, a celerity skulk should jump at the marine before it rounds the corner, while a carapace skulk should wait for it to come to the corner.
*When I was 1v1 training alot, we would do it in two ways when training skulk vs rifle. Either damage on 50%, against a 0|0 marine, or the skulk gets celerity against a 0|0 marine on full damage.
Interesting read, but does it still apply now? It was build 269 back then.
It definitely does apply. The same problem I was complaining about back then is still a problem. Although many things have changed the going alien strategies are roughly the same.
My favorite upgrade is regen. Ixian says celerity scales with dodging skill, but so does regen. Well used dodging with use of cover can keep you full health with regen, and have you full health ready for another engagement. This fits my playstyle at least, others apparently can't see to play without celerity.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2016
Regen does not affect survivability in combat - celerity and carapace does. Regen gives a new playstyle in choosing combats and between combats, but once combat has started, it means nothing. So while you could argue that regen scales with skill, it does so in an entirely new way.
Regen does not affect survivability in combat - celerity and carapace does. Regen gives a new playstyle in choosing combats and between combats, but once combat has started, it means nothing. So while you could argue that regen scales with skill, it does so in an entirely new way.
Regen suits a hit and run playstyle. I use it as skulk, lerk, and onos. As skulk I usually get a bite or two in, depending on the marines skill, and then dart behind cover. Then dart out while they reload now having near full health again because of regen.
With lerk I will get a bite in, run away, and try to come at them from a new angle with now full health.
Using regen in this hit and run way gives you more survivability than carapace.
I will admit that if I am going against players far above my skill level, regen does not scale. These players will drop me to <10 health with regen on sight.
Regen does not affect survivability in combat - celerity and carapace does. Regen gives a new playstyle in choosing combats and between combats, but once combat has started, it means nothing. So while you could argue that regen scales with skill, it does so in an entirely new way.
Regen suits a hit and run playstyle. I use it as skulk, lerk, and onos. As skulk I usually get a bite or two in, depending on the marines skill, and then dart behind cover. Then dart out while they reload now having near full health again because of regen.
With lerk I will get a bite in, run away, and try to come at them from a new angle with now full health.
Using regen in this hit and run way gives you more survivability than carapace.
I will admit that if I am going against players far above my skill level, regen does not scale. These players will drop me to <10 health with regen on sight.
It's also great with res biting, now that silence is so more common. You couldn't hide with it properly before, because of the sound it makes when healing you. With silence, though, I can hide and regenerate in peace.
I also tend to be focusing on res when I am skulking, furthering my preference for regen. If I remember correctly @F0rdPrefect you strongly disagreed with me on the viability of regen on onos. Were you one of those people that thinks celerity > any crag hive upgrade on onos?
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2016
Regen is shitty on onos in my recent experience, due to the current boneshield. The armor regen on top of the new max armor carapace gives you will ALWAYS be stronger than regen. Or am I alone in this experience?
I also tend to be focusing on res when I am skulking, furthering my preference for regen. If I remember correctly @F0rdPrefect you strongly disagreed with me on the viability of regen on onos. Were you one of those people that thinks celerity > any crag hive upgrade on onos?
Yes. I tried regen onos and it just didn't work out. Maybe I'm too reckless. But I found I can't meaningfully engage without the extra armor padding, and usually a hive or a gorge a never more than ten seconds away.
As @Ixian noted, the recent boneshield change only reinforced this.
Celerity is great - but not essential. I'd say the infomation isnt outdated, and this is why:
Celerity and carapace, the two main survivability upgrades for the aliens, both demand more from the marines, but the demand is different.
Tracking a skulk with celerity is harder than one without celerity. And if the alien knows how to dodge, the usefulness of celerity rises to a unique hight - The more skilled the skulk, the better celerity can be exploited.
I'd rephrase this. No it's not harder to track a skulk with celerity imo, maybe that would be a decent experiment, have a strong player shoot a skulk with and without celerity. I think you will find, that the accuracy is mostly unchanged.
What celerity allows, is simply to close distance faster. This can mean the difference between a bite or two or more, that you wouldn't otherwise get, depending on the situation. That's what makes celerity strong in my opinion.
Notice how your own quote from wob seems to support this idea:
I will also repeat what I learned from Wob: Each upgrade entails its own playstyle. If waiting by a corner for a marine to come closer, a celerity skulk should jump at the marine before it rounds the corner, while a carapace skulk should wait for it to come to the corner.
That's because celerity makes you close that distance faster.
I will say this, a natural consequence of being able to close distance faster, obviously means that you will also be able to do certain escapes faster. So in that sense there is some survivabillity from that. But I don't think it's because you dodge better, atleast not against competent players.
Tracking a skulk with carapace isnt harder than tracking one without, but it requires you to track it for a longer amount of time. If the aliens isnt as skilled in dodging, this is the stronger upgrade. Especially if group fights, when the extra life is multiplied, the aliens can quickly reach a point where they demand an accuracy no players can live up to.*
I'd also rephrase this. It may not be harder to track with carapace on, but what carapace does allow you to do, is bait more bullets than without. That is the overarching goal of dodging after all, to bait bullets, which means, that carapace precisely does make you dodge better, in the sense that it requires more bullets from the marine that is.
Celeritys ability to get around the map faster is minuscule - around 2 units of ingame speed faster for skulks, with 3 for fades if i recall correctly, which is both less than a 20% increase.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't each spur increase the top speed with 10%? And at 3 spurs 30% at top speed. But even then, assuming your math is correct, 20% increase sounds quite significant to me. I don't know why you downplay an increase like that.
That said, I agree that the strength of celerity isn't in how much faster you travel the map. I rarely see that being a huge factor.
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My problem with silence is how marines counter have to counter it. Long story short, A2 is the counter, which I can elaborate on if needed. The counter to celerity is slightly more thoughtful macro movement, and better aiming, whereas carapace is better aiming (depending on how well the skulk can dodge, one will be better than the other).
Right now, shift hive is the most common hive, by more than 2/3rds. With silence being on the shift hive, the aliens have, early game, silence. To counter this, marines need to go A2, or just outright lose some combats, because they cant even react in time, nor have the money to throw after obs and scans, to counteract it.
Celerity + silence isn't a problem, as it is two upgrades - which means it WILL be mid/late game, where marines HAVE A2, where the marines HAVE the money to scan, and the same goes for Celerity + phantom, though I dont understand how it could be stronger than silence. And if the marines don't have A2 or the money to scan, they are already in trouble because the commander is inexperienced, or they simply have lost the resource game, at which point any advantage will continue to twist the neck of the marines.
I believe, that silence going away from the shift hive, wont impact the popularity of it as a starter severely, due to echo, and celerity. I would like to see it moved to the shade hive. The shade hive has no "survivability" upgrade, just a bunch of trickery, which, if the aliens dont get a second hive, makes the fade so squishy, that its hard to do anything at all, and an outright loss midgame anyway, as fades wont have survivability upgrades such as celerity, carapace or regeneration, due to the fact they cant get the 2nd hive before they pop, and if you get the 2nd hive fast, you cant get metabolise at a good timing for the fades, which leaves the fades very weak again - its a loss/loss going shade hive first when it comes to fades. It isnt viable.
The super powerful silence COULD alterate this, but would still not help the fades out greatly. Silence has, for as long as I can remember been a weak first hive, but a VERY strong 2nd hive, due to the counter of arcs, and abilities like silence. Switching Focus with Crush could be another factor to help the fades, to try and keep the game lower on res, thus weakening the marines and, in comparison, strengthening the fade (as the marines arent as strong).
Now I've said what I see as the problem, what I would like to see, but not what I would love to see. I would love to see silence removed from the game. It's a fustrating element annoying marines, as they have to be ungodly aware constantly (which isn't fair to casual players - they should enjoy the game, as they are here to do), forcing marines into only 1 viable techpath, disallowing for diversity in games, which makes for a boring, stale meta. If a player is to be silent at any other point in the game, except with said silence, you have a heavy speed penalty. Some say that since you dont take celerity this is already the case though, but I find that odd - sneaking is very powerful, so let is scale with skill, and let it show a weakness - you gain a HUGE advantage not making a sound - only fair you should lose another, when so much of the game revolves around sound.
Now there is a new problem - what to replace it with. After long discussions, discussing several elements, I cannot for the life of me, find out who said it, but it went something like this:
1)Remove Silence
2)Split adrenalin into Increased max energy, and increased energy recovery, both stronger than their part in adrenalin.
Max energy and increased recovery would be aimed at lifeforms like fades and gorges, to give the option for more personal styles.
And just to reiterate:
3) Switch Focus and Crush
I would love to hear about other options to silence, whether it be a new ability, as above, or something entirely different!
I agree that Adrenaline should be buffed since it was much better in NS1.
Just to reiterate, Silence is at it's strongest when Marines are playing their worst. A lot of the old NS1 era things coming back means it is also bringing back gameplay styles that newer or primarily ns2 players never had to learn to use or fight against, so expect some growing pains as the community adjusts to them.
I agree with your assessment. I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion. As of right now, there is just no point in going anything but shift hive straight away - celerity + silence + echo is just too strong. (Heck, even Adrenaline is actually rather strong. It's just that nobody ever uses it because celerity is even stronger.)
I was actually going to make a thread about chamber upgrades one of these days, but meh...
I also rather like being an über skulk of death with silence
It might also be worth considering if we can't replace celerity somehow. I mean is there ever anyone who does not take celerity, except for defensive gorges? (Edit: Except for silence skulks now that there's that, think higher lifeforms) It's so crucial to alien play that it makes the upgrade system rather one dimensional. (You HAVE to go shift hive first or at the very least second, and 80% of your team WILL take celerity, the rest being the odd skulk that likes silence.)
It's a bit sad that people start talking about Cel/Silence instead of complaining to make finally the smaller skulkchange or hp bar..
With the possibility of structure upgrades being unlocked through maturation like the whip's bombard ability.
Edit: Just realized I typed the crag hive drifter ability instead of the shift one
I actually quite like this. The idea behind having it split up like this was that the aliens could choose how they wanted to play. Do we hit fast? Hard? Or quietly? Sadly, the game's evolution means that this doesn't really happen in terms of the support structures and drifter abilities. I'm in favor of at LEAST unhooking structure abilities from their hive-types.
Drifter abilities... eh... maybe... they're still kinda unique though... especially hallucination. Not sure I'd want all 3 accessible at once.
Structure abilities on the other hand are pretty tame: ink you only ever really see super late game if khamm is screwing around, or they went shade hive with the express purpose of countering an arc attack. Heal wave is hard to even notice when it's working, and echoing out structures feels like it should just be normal.
Anyways, that's just my ideas. No guarantees, but I'll certainly mention it to the others.
One could make the argument that the counter to silence is checking behind you often and sticking with teammates.
You could also argue that a2 is the only counter to shift and crag hives if you wanted.
I can pretty much guarantee that if silence gets removed I'll stop playing altogether. It was already bad enough before having to wait for the 3rd hive in 90% of games before getting it.
Right now silence is the only way to get the drop on high skill players. They constantly check behind themselves and are usually positioned perfectly so shift and crag are literally useless against them..
And since they can usually drop 5-6 skulks with mind numbing ease you can't even rely on teamwork. (and if they get comm support it's even easier for them)
They need to make it easier for casual/rookie players, not easier for high skill players to dominate.
So you can get echo on one hive, if you open shift, but at 2nd hive, you can have all 3 abillities.
Then people will still go shift first, always.
http://thirstyonos.com/wonitor/configurator.html#x=startHiveTech&y=count&t=winner&ySort=desc&tNormalize&yLabel=Win Ratio&title=W/L ratio per first hive tech&numPlayers_gt=12&version_gt=300
The shift hive imbalance would be more obvious, if wonitor tracked the second hive tech data as well.
edit: fixed Constraints (it was "version =300", while it was supposed to be "version >300")
lol @ "none"
Link to the stats (12 or more players, version 301 or newer)
That makes it look a bit more even. Shift is still the most common choice though being first hive 89% of the time in the stats above.
Win rates by hive type are a difficult statistic to work with. Aliens typically have a higher win rate. Because aliens play shift hive >75% of games, is the shift hive win rate overstated? There are a lot of other variables that are not so visible in this graph.
Celerity increases your speed -> higher speed means doing things in less time -> time is the most important resource in this game.
However, something I've observed with (public) shade hive first is that the aliens:
a) trust in cloak and die in situations, where they wouldn't have, if they didn't have cloak.
b) play way more passively by waiting for marines to ambush
, which kind of feels like the aliens would be better off without any upgrades.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/135638/upgrades/p1
Especially this post makes me wonder if I'm wrong concerning celerity being an essential, or if the information is outdated.
Celerity and carapace, the two main survivability upgrades for the aliens, both demand more from the marines, but the demand is different.
Tracking a skulk with celerity is harder than one without celerity. And if the alien knows how to dodge, the usefulness of celerity rises to a unique hight - The more skilled the skulk, the better celerity can be exploited.
Tracking a skulk with carapace isnt harder than tracking one without, but it requires you to track it for a longer amount of time. If the aliens isnt as skilled in dodging, this is the stronger upgrade. Especially if group fights, when the extra life is multiplied, the aliens can quickly reach a point where they demand an accuracy no players can live up to.*
Its no secret that Titus were heavily based on teamwork and their performance as a group. With carapace being great for groupfights in ways celerity isn't, I am not surprised as to Joshhh having a high regard of carapace. On top of this, due to their use of gorge and tunnels as cysting in maps like summit, they could get away with going crag hive, into 3 shells, into two harvesters, without buying drifters or cysts. 0|0 marines against carapace skulks is a real nightmare, especially agaisnt groups of skulks, which is how titus often defended their naturals.
Celeritys ability to get around the map faster is minuscule - around 2 units of ingame speed faster for skulks, with 3 for fades if i recall correctly, which is both less than a 20% increase. I have a theory that shift hive/celerity is often chosen above crag hive/carapace (despite how carapace might be better for this group of players), is that celerity FEELS great, while carapace doesn't change your feel, but more the feel of the marines.
I will also repeat what I learned from Wob: Each upgrade entails its own playstyle. If waiting by a corner for a marine to come closer, a celerity skulk should jump at the marine before it rounds the corner, while a carapace skulk should wait for it to come to the corner.
*When I was 1v1 training alot, we would do it in two ways when training skulk vs rifle. Either damage on 50%, against a 0|0 marine, or the skulk gets celerity against a 0|0 marine on full damage.
My favorite upgrade is regen. Ixian says celerity scales with dodging skill, but so does regen. Well used dodging with use of cover can keep you full health with regen, and have you full health ready for another engagement. This fits my playstyle at least, others apparently can't see to play without celerity.
Regen suits a hit and run playstyle. I use it as skulk, lerk, and onos. As skulk I usually get a bite or two in, depending on the marines skill, and then dart behind cover. Then dart out while they reload now having near full health again because of regen.
With lerk I will get a bite in, run away, and try to come at them from a new angle with now full health.
Using regen in this hit and run way gives you more survivability than carapace.
I will admit that if I am going against players far above my skill level, regen does not scale. These players will drop me to <10 health with regen on sight.
It's also great with res biting, now that silence is so more common. You couldn't hide with it properly before, because of the sound it makes when healing you. With silence, though, I can hide and regenerate in peace.
Yes. I tried regen onos and it just didn't work out. Maybe I'm too reckless. But I found I can't meaningfully engage without the extra armor padding, and usually a hive or a gorge a never more than ten seconds away.
As @Ixian noted, the recent boneshield change only reinforced this.
What celerity allows, is simply to close distance faster. This can mean the difference between a bite or two or more, that you wouldn't otherwise get, depending on the situation. That's what makes celerity strong in my opinion.
Notice how your own quote from wob seems to support this idea: That's because celerity makes you close that distance faster.
I will say this, a natural consequence of being able to close distance faster, obviously means that you will also be able to do certain escapes faster. So in that sense there is some survivabillity from that. But I don't think it's because you dodge better, atleast not against competent players. I'd also rephrase this. It may not be harder to track with carapace on, but what carapace does allow you to do, is bait more bullets than without. That is the overarching goal of dodging after all, to bait bullets, which means, that carapace precisely does make you dodge better, in the sense that it requires more bullets from the marine that is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't each spur increase the top speed with 10%? And at 3 spurs 30% at top speed. But even then, assuming your math is correct, 20% increase sounds quite significant to me. I don't know why you downplay an increase like that.
That said, I agree that the strength of celerity isn't in how much faster you travel the map. I rarely see that being a huge factor.